Some people love their status symbols, but I'm just the opposite. In my day, you were allowed to be proud of being poor.
I take pride in my lower economic status. My family members don't always. When I was 8, we went on a family trip, and my mom said she wished she had brung fancy clothes so we could eat at a luxury restaurant and impress its rich patrons. But other than that, society had more tolerance for people flaunting their poverty back then.
I purchased a bike last year that happened to come with a huge scrape on it. I don't purposely scrape up bikes, but I left this scrape alone. Also, the crankshaft was defective, so I ended up with crankshafts that were different colors - which is kind of cool.
Also, having crooked teeth is like what other people would feel about having a high-end convertible. Crooked teeth are really cool. It's probably my best poverty symbol.
This economic pride also manifested itself in my amusement park preferences. I used to prefer the now-defunct Americana amusement park over Kings Island because I felt more at home among its customer base, which was thought to be poorer than that of Kings Island (since admission was much cheaper).
It's called class consciousness. Try it! You'll like it!
My Grand Parents were hit hard during the Great Depression and basically pinched pennies so hard that they would bleed through the back of their fists. They were so cheap that they bought a 1982 Chevrolet Chevette brand new in 1982 and hung onto it through the 1990s to the point where they could no longer drive. I remember they tried to convince me it was still a good car to drive to school and how it would be a waste of money to spend $2,000 on a Pontiac Sun Bird.
(https://static.cargurus.com/images/site/2009/04/06/18/04/1982_chevrolet_chevette-pic-20752.jpeg)
Interestingly I recall a conversation where my grandma told my grandpa in the early 2000s that $20 dollars for 70 stations of cable was too expensive. It turns out when they died that they had a small fortune in stocks and war bonds stashed away in false walls or tin cans. I don't know if they were "proud" of their poverty status but they sure lived like it until they ended up in grave.
Ah, the Chevette. 0-60 time of maybe.
Quote from: Takumi on June 01, 2018, 12:25:10 AM
Ah, the Chevette. 0-60 time of maybe.
High 20 second range if not a solid 30. It would be interesting to see if a Mack Truck could take a Chevette in the quarter mile.
The way I live life is simple: fuck the Jones's.
Too many people I know try to live their lives like the people they see on tv and social media, to the point where they're losing everything even halfway valuable (not talking monetary either) behind it. In a lot of people's minds nowadays if your not inspiring to live like the elite then what are you living for..
There are more small minded people now more than ever.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on May 31, 2018, 11:08:26 PMInterestingly I recall a conversation where my grandma told my grandpa in the early 2000s that $20 dollars for 70 stations of cable was too expensive. It turns out when they died that they had a small fortune in stocks and war bonds stashed away in false walls or tin cans. I don't know if they were "proud" of their poverty status but they sure lived like it until they ended up in grave.
They thought they could take it with them. Many people who lived through the Depression did.
My flip phone. But it sends an ambiguous message. Is jon
1. a vintage-style guy,
2. poor,
3. hipster,
4. ironic,
5. debt-ridden, or
6. old?
7. Amish
Quote from: bandit957 on May 31, 2018, 09:55:41 PM
In my day, you were allowed to be proud of being poor.
Here, you are still allowed (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Orleans+County,+NY/@43.2446968,-78.3901151,10.81z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89d41105a0f5cb23:0xc14fea72db78047a!8m2!3d43.4088624!4d-78.2020387). I like to put a paradoxical twist on it and call it "pride in your humility".
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 01, 2018, 11:38:05 AM
7. Amish
The Amish aren't really an impoverished people. They're a prime example of what I mentioned above: very proud of their humility (you could also call it self-righteous, I guess). They live the way they do because of their beliefs, not because they lack means to live otherwise.
I bought a scratched up pair of aerobars for my bicycle off of Ebay..
I think consumer goods don't do a good job anymore because everything has gotten cheaper due to foreign trade.
Nowadays I find housing (e.g. location and quality of your housing) and personal health (e.g. obesity, opioids) are better markers
I do not consider myself poor, as I make a reasonable income. However, I generally try to get as much life out of major purchases like cellphones, appliances, and cars before replacing them. My sole exception to this philosophy was with scanners and shortwave radios. I went through a period of "what's the next "dream" radio I must have". However, common sense (and financial practicality) finally prevailed and I've settled down in that regard as well.
This "keep it until it's impractical or unreasonable to do so" philosophy is better for the environment as well.
QuoteI think consumer goods don't do a good job anymore because everything has gotten cheaper due to foreign trade.
The problem is not foreign trade. Rather, it's the fact that - with the exception of cars and some major appliances - most consumer goods are deliberately made with the concept that when they break, you throw them away. More profit in forcing people to replace products instead of allowing people to repair them when something relatively minor goes wrong. Just another example of mid-1980s MBA teaching in action.
A trailer home.
Those in the lap of luxury have a double-wide!
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on May 31, 2018, 11:08:26 PM
Interestingly I recall a conversation where my grandma told my grandpa in the early 2000s that $20 dollars for 70 stations of cable was too expensive. It turns out when they died that they had a small fortune in stocks and war bonds stashed away in false walls or tin cans. I don't know if they were "proud" of their poverty status but they sure lived like it until they ended up in grave.
That was a staple of people of that generation. The stories about saving Cool Whip containers and the like for saving leftovers was very much the way of life of that generation. Tupperware was a huge expense for many. The generation has mostly passed on by now, so those stories are now jokes. But they were great penny pinchers.
Sadly, what's happened in many cases is the heritance have been passed on, and the money spent foolishly.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 01, 2018, 12:01:20 PM
That was a staple of people of that generation. The stories about saving Cool Whip containers and the like for saving leftovers was very much the way of life of that generation. Tupperware was a huge expense for many. The generation has mostly passed on by now, so those stories are now jokes. But they were great penny pinchers.
Sadly, what's happened in many cases is the heritance have been passed on, and the money spent foolishly.
My mom used Cool Whip and assorted other containers (sour cream, cottage cheese, etc) for years. Later, she did use Tupperware since she got a dealer's discount, though mostly for freezing vegetables from the garden. I lean towards freezer bags and Cool Whip containers, myself. My sister wound up with most of the "good" Tupperware after mom passed away (we split the stash, but she took her half out of the middle). Most of what I had went to Goodwill a few weeks ago since I hadn't touched most of it in 3 years.
Quote from: roadman on June 01, 2018, 12:00:46 PM
I do not consider myself poor, as I make a reasonable income. However, I generally try to get as much life out of major purchases like cellphones, appliances, and cars before replacing them. My sole exception to this philosophy was with scanners and shortwave radios. I went through a period of "what's the next "dream" radio I must have". However, common sense (and financial practicality) finally prevailed and I've settled down in that regard as well.
This "keep it until it's impractical or unreasonable to do so" philosophy is better for the environment as well.
My wife is better at using things until they break than I am. I usually like to upgrade my cell phone as soon as my carrier allows me to, but I'm usually able to sell the "old" one for $150 or so on eBay, so it's hard not to.
A lot of the items we've bought for the coming baby are used, which I'm feeling ambivalent about.
Quote from: roadman on June 01, 2018, 12:00:46 PMThe problem is not foreign trade. Rather, it's the fact that - with the exception of cars and some major appliances - most consumer goods are deliberately made with the concept that when they break, you throw them away. More profit in forcing people to replace products instead of allowing people to repair them when something relatively minor goes wrong. Just another example of mid-1980s MBA teaching in action.
Precisely. I'm almost 40 and I've never had a television repaired by a television repairman. Or a stereo repaired by a stereo repairman. Even laptop computers are much more difficult for amateurs to repair or upgrade than they were 20 years ago.
One side benefit of keeping my cellphone until it breaks (normally five to six years on average) is that I usually have accumulated enough upgrade points by then that I get the new phone for free.
Quote from: jon daly on June 01, 2018, 11:21:50 AM
My flip phone. But it sends an ambiguous message. Is jon
1. a vintage-style guy,
2. poor,
3. hipster,
4. ironic,
5. debt-ridden, or
6. old?
I have a flip phone too. I don't care what message it sends to other people (I'd bet on 6), but to me it's water and shock resistant, has good battery life and decent reception in rural areas, and is likely to be usable if I need to call for help when I'm out hiking somewhere.
Why can't current phones use GPS signals if they don't receive cell service?
Quote from: 1 on June 01, 2018, 01:23:55 PM
Why can't current phones use GPS signals if they don't receive cell service?
GPS is a one-way location service, measuring exact distance to each of several satellites and calculating location and altitude from that.
When traveling to areas where there's no cell service, there are satellite phones that one can buy or rent. They send 2-way signals direct to satellites, so as long as there's visible sky you can probably get service. Last time I checked they're still pretty expensive though.
I may not use a flip phone anymore but I'm certainly not about to get a contract just so I can have the latest fanciest phone every single year. I'm fine with prepaid. It does everything I need it to do (including post pics with ease on this forum) and more, all for 45 bucks a month lmao.
This one probably sounds silly: I have a microwave but rarely use it, I usually use my toaster oven instead. Everything just taste better reheated in that.
I drive a '96 Grand Prix (which has a rebuilt or new almost everything) and a 2000 Chevy pickup. The Grand Prix is my road trip car, but for extra long distances I usually just rent a car, I don't do car notes (never got a car from a lot in my life).
As for cable, I gave it up several years ago when "basic" cable became nothing more than local channels, news channels and the weather channel smdh. Nowadays I have firesticks that I've "broken"... shhhhh.... ;-)
I'm coming around to them as it relates to heating liquids, but I really don't care for microwaves, either. I'd rather heat, say, a Stouffer's mac and cheese in an oven for 30 minutes than a microwave oven for 5.
My "cable" package consists of the over-the-air channels only. Everything else, I stream through various services.
Quote from: 1 on June 01, 2018, 01:23:55 PM
Why can't current phones use GPS signals if they don't receive cell service?
because A-GPS relies on information sent from a server. That is an almanac transmitted from the satellite, which can be acquired by a phone as well. However that requires, if I remember correctly, 40 seconds of uninterrupted reception, and often requires a few attempts to get it in full. Almanac contains latest orbit information for satellites, and that data is essential for calculations.
Alternative is to download almanac from the server before getting to no-data area. I am using app called "GPS Status & Toolbox", go to "manage A-GPS menu"; there are many more similar apps. Downloaded data is very good for a few hours and still good for 24 hours, I believe. I believe (not sure) simply starting a navigational app while in wifi coverage should do the same thing.
Quote from: Takumi on June 01, 2018, 12:25:10 AM
Ah, the Chevette. 0-60 time of maybe.
My first car was a Chevette.
Its 0-60 rating was "yes (if the A/C isn't running)"....or was it "yes (downhill)"?
I was able to get a speeding ticket tossed out by pointing out that I was driving a Chevette. :)
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 01, 2018, 03:00:39 PM
I'm coming around to them as it relates to heating liquids, but I really don't care for microwaves, either. I'd rather heat, say, a Stouffer's mac and cheese in an oven for 30 minutes than a microwave oven for 5.
Agree with you about microwaves. My parents got one in the mid-1970s, and I never used it for anything but heating up liquids and, occasionally, cold pizza. The fact that the first (and only) time I tried to cook hot dogs in it resulted in food that had the consistency of rubber (despite taking the proper precautions beforehand), may have had a lot to do with it. I still have my parent's original microwave (part of me is amazed it still works), but I'm thinking of ditching it for a smaller (and much lighter) unit.
QuoteMy "cable" package consists of the over-the-air channels only. Everything else, I stream through various services.
Regarding cable, I've always had the "basic" tier - i.e. one level above just broadcast channels. However, now that I have a smart TV (my 2003 analog set finally died in February), and given a) how truly awful most of the "basic" channels have become and b) how the provider is increasingly moving channels to a higher tier or discarding them altogether (like changing H2 to the "sin and prostitution" channel Vice), at this point I am seriously considering ditching cable all together. Can use a digital antenna for broadcast channels, and can stream most everything else I would care to watch off the Internet.
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on June 01, 2018, 05:37:43 PM
Quote from: Takumi on June 01, 2018, 12:25:10 AM
Ah, the Chevette. 0-60 time of maybe.
My first car was a Chevette.
Its 0-60 rating was "yes (if the A/C isn't running)"....or was it "yes (downhill)"?
I was able to get a speeding ticket tossed out by pointing out that I was driving a Chevette. :)
My mom had one at one point. I could get it going pretty fast on I-84.
Quote from: roadman on June 01, 2018, 12:00:46 PM
QuoteI think consumer goods don't do a good job anymore because everything has gotten cheaper due to foreign trade.
The problem is not foreign trade. Rather, it's the fact that - with the exception of cars and some major appliances - most consumer goods are deliberately made with the concept that when they break, you throw them away. More profit in forcing people to replace products instead of allowing people to repair them when something relatively minor goes wrong. Just another example of mid-1980s MBA teaching in action.
You have it backwards. Stuff is so cheap that repairs are usually not worth it, so there's no need to make them more durable.
My father had a 1981 Chevette that lasted over a decade. Floor sort of rusted through on the passenger side finally. He almost cried when he finally let it go.
I live in an apartment. My sister is old enough to drive but can't afford a car. My dad's car is a raggedy old Elantra from 2002. My mom has a Kia from 2010. We had dialup until 2013. We have OTA TV.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 01, 2018, 12:01:20 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on May 31, 2018, 11:08:26 PM
Interestingly I recall a conversation where my grandma told my grandpa in the early 2000s that $20 dollars for 70 stations of cable was too expensive. It turns out when they died that they had a small fortune in stocks and war bonds stashed away in false walls or tin cans. I don't know if they were "proud" of their poverty status but they sure lived like it until they ended up in grave.
That was a staple of people of that generation. The stories about saving Cool Whip containers and the like for saving leftovers was very much the way of life of that generation. Tupperware was a huge expense for many. The generation has mostly passed on by now, so those stories are now jokes. But they were great penny pinchers.
Sadly, what's happened in many cases is the heritance have been passed on, and the money spent foolishly.
One of my great Aunts would actually count out the number of paper plates to the number of people at a family gathering. If we ran out, we all had to check to make sure we hadn't taken two! To this day, I still do that when taking paper plates. The habit stuck.
My inheritance from my other great Aunt was put into my college fund. Not sure what happened with the inheritance from Grandma.
Regarding cable, it might not be worth it if you don't watch that much non-broadcast TV.
Quote from: vdeane on June 02, 2018, 02:40:22 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 01, 2018, 12:01:20 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on May 31, 2018, 11:08:26 PM
Interestingly I recall a conversation where my grandma told my grandpa in the early 2000s that $20 dollars for 70 stations of cable was too expensive. It turns out when they died that they had a small fortune in stocks and war bonds stashed away in false walls or tin cans. I don't know if they were "proud" of their poverty status but they sure lived like it until they ended up in grave.
That was a staple of people of that generation. The stories about saving Cool Whip containers and the like for saving leftovers was very much the way of life of that generation. Tupperware was a huge expense for many. The generation has mostly passed on by now, so those stories are now jokes. But they were great penny pinchers.
Sadly, what's happened in many cases is the heritance have been passed on, and the money spent foolishly.
One of my great Aunts would actually count out the number of paper plates to the number of people at a family gathering. If we ran out, we all had to check to make sure we hadn't taken two! To this day, I still do that when taking paper plates. The habit stuck.
My inheritance from my other great Aunt was put into my college fund. Not sure what happened with the inheritance from Grandma.
Regarding cable, it might not be worth it if you don't watch that much non-broadcast TV.
OTA TV is mostly the same. you just have the channels with actual TV stations and its free.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 01, 2018, 12:01:20 PM
A trailer home.
Those in the lap of luxury have a double-wide!
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on May 31, 2018, 11:08:26 PM
Interestingly I recall a conversation where my grandma told my grandpa in the early 2000s that $20 dollars for 70 stations of cable was too expensive. It turns out when they died that they had a small fortune in stocks and war bonds stashed away in false walls or tin cans. I don't know if they were "proud" of their poverty status but they sure lived like it until they ended up in grave.
That was a staple of people of that generation. The stories about saving Cool Whip containers and the like for saving leftovers was very much the way of life of that generation. Tupperware was a huge expense for many. The generation has mostly passed on by now, so those stories are now jokes. But they were great penny pinchers.
Sadly, what's happened in many cases is the heritance have been passed on, and the money spent foolishly.
I remember the stories they used to tell about one bath a week with shared water so they didn't run up the utility bill. Basically they got so old and so set in their ways that they didn't know what to do with their savings. Basically by the time they died the house had been paid off for several decades and the interest they made was still maturing past what they would ever spend. They never were really even interested in doing anything, traveling or spending that money at all. Hard to fathom an economic situation so bad that literally you fear poverty past the age where it would really matter anymore with accumulated savings.
Quote from: Rothman on June 01, 2018, 10:19:16 PM
My father had a 1981 Chevette that lasted over a decade. Floor sort of rusted through on the passenger side finally. He almost cried when he finally let it go.
Just goes to show that even the worst cars will last provided they receive proper care. Those panels on the Chevette were absolute crap, no wonder they rusted on show room floors (at least according to automotive legend).
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 02, 2018, 02:59:27 PMHard to fathom an economic situation so bad that literally you fear poverty past the age where it would really matter anymore with accumulated savings.
I can actually imagine it.
Quote from: bandit957 on June 02, 2018, 03:06:31 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 02, 2018, 02:59:27 PMHard to fathom an economic situation so bad that literally you fear poverty past the age where it would really matter anymore with accumulated savings.
I can actually imagine it.
We're talking a time where there was no such thing as programs like Social Security or FDIC. Literally you could have a small fortune in the bank that would suddenly disappear when your bank went under. That's how things like stuff dollars in tin cans and mattresses get started. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe the unemployment level has even gotten close to the levels of the Great Depression in any recent recession.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 02, 2018, 03:15:01 PM
Quote from: bandit957 on June 02, 2018, 03:06:31 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 02, 2018, 02:59:27 PMHard to fathom an economic situation so bad that literally you fear poverty past the age where it would really matter anymore with accumulated savings.
I can actually imagine it.
We're talking a time where there was no such thing as programs like Social Security or FDIC. Literally you could have a small fortune in the bank that would suddenly disappear when your bank went under. That's how things like stuff dollars in tin cans and mattresses get started. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe the unemployment level has even gotten close to the levels of the Great Depression in any recent recession.
There's also the fact that, as you get older and need more care, meeting your basic needs gets to be unbelievably expensive. That's why my grandmother saved her pennies until the very end.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 02, 2018, 03:15:01 PM
We're talking a time where there was no such thing as programs like Social Security or FDIC.
They're always talking about how Social Security will go broke soon. What if?
QuoteSomeone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe the unemployment level has even gotten close to the levels of the Great Depression in any recent recession.
Around here, it's bad.
Quote from: Nanis on June 02, 2018, 02:50:41 PM
Quote from: vdeane on June 02, 2018, 02:40:22 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 01, 2018, 12:01:20 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on May 31, 2018, 11:08:26 PM
Interestingly I recall a conversation where my grandma told my grandpa in the early 2000s that $20 dollars for 70 stations of cable was too expensive. It turns out when they died that they had a small fortune in stocks and war bonds stashed away in false walls or tin cans. I don't know if they were "proud" of their poverty status but they sure lived like it until they ended up in grave.
That was a staple of people of that generation. The stories about saving Cool Whip containers and the like for saving leftovers was very much the way of life of that generation. Tupperware was a huge expense for many. The generation has mostly passed on by now, so those stories are now jokes. But they were great penny pinchers.
Sadly, what's happened in many cases is the heritance have been passed on, and the money spent foolishly.
One of my great Aunts would actually count out the number of paper plates to the number of people at a family gathering. If we ran out, we all had to check to make sure we hadn't taken two! To this day, I still do that when taking paper plates. The habit stuck.
My inheritance from my other great Aunt was put into my college fund. Not sure what happened with the inheritance from Grandma.
Regarding cable, it might not be worth it if you don't watch that much non-broadcast TV.
OTA TV is mostly the same. you just have the channels with actual TV stations and its free.
I'd say the equation is quite a bit different when you're dealing with a small, one-time cost for an antenna (which, depending on where you live, could be less than half the monthly cost of the cheapest cable plan) and a persistent monthly cost, especially since TVs have other uses than over the air or cable TV. Mine was originally bought for watching Doctor Who and Star Trek on Amazon Prime. I then bought an antenna because I figured I might as well. Since moving to the Capital District, I've become a local news junkie, because News10 is just that good. I also now have an HDMI cable directly connecting my computer and TV, so I can stream anything I want on it.
The reception we were getting with an HD antenna was crap, that's why we pay to get the OTA channels through the cable company. I also understand OTA isn't really an option in rural mountainous areas.
Frugality isn't a bad thing.
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 02, 2018, 10:39:40 PM
The reception we were getting with an HD antenna was crap, that's why we pay to get the OTA channels through the cable company. I also understand OTA isn't really an option in rural mountainous areas.
Unless you lived on top of a really big hill and had a roof antenna in a rural market, you wouldn't get anything. That's a good point. But if you're in an urban poverty area (like me), this is invalid
Quote from: Nanis on June 06, 2018, 02:41:32 AM
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 02, 2018, 10:39:40 PM
The reception we were getting with an HD antenna was crap, that's why we pay to get the OTA channels through the cable company. I also understand OTA isn't really an option in rural mountainous areas.
Unless you lived on top of a really big hill and had a roof antenna in a rural market, you wouldn't get anything. That's a good point. But if you're in an urban poverty area (like me), this is invalid
We we're living in a third-floor apartment in an urban area and reception was crap, particularly in bad weather. This was with an indoor HD antenna.
My "poverty symbol" is probably no working A/C in a 24-year-old daily driver that has rebuilt nothing (except for the alternator) and is otherwise highly reliable. I have the financial resource to pursue various options for dealing with this, including an annual evacuation and recharge of the A/C system ($70 minimum each time), throwing the die on successful leak repair in a shop ($200 each time, tried twice in the past), attempting DIY repair or recharge ($200 minimum one-time for equipment and some supplies, plus civil and criminal liability for illegal release of R-134a or use of HC refrigerants prohibited for automotive applications), or replacing the vehicle altogether (up to $20,000 for a brand-new replacement). However, changing clothes to drive somewhere when it is hot out is the solution that leaves me feeling the least like I am throwing money out the window.
$70 to have your A/C recharged is a steal - I spent at least $300 to have it done about 20 years ago.
Quote from: bandit957 on June 02, 2018, 07:09:20 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 02, 2018, 03:15:01 PM
We're talking a time where there was no such thing as programs like Social Security or FDIC.
They're always talking about how Social Security will go broke soon. What if?
QuoteSomeone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe the unemployment level has even gotten close to the levels of the Great Depression in any recent recession.
Around here, it's bad.
It is? I see 3.5% for your region.
https://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.oh_cincinnati_msa.htm
Quote from: Brandon on June 06, 2018, 01:27:31 PM
Quote from: bandit957 on June 02, 2018, 07:09:20 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 02, 2018, 03:15:01 PM
We're talking a time where there was no such thing as programs like Social Security or FDIC.
They're always talking about how Social Security will go broke soon. What if?
QuoteSomeone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe the unemployment level has even gotten close to the levels of the Great Depression in any recent recession.
Around here, it's bad.
It is? I see 3.5% for your region.
https://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.oh_cincinnati_msa.htm
The Cincinnati metro is in more than one state, and Kentucky, Ohio, and Indiana have different laws. Maybe it's higher in Kentucky.
Plus, while official unemployment numbers are U3 (excluding people who stopped looking for work and who are underemployed), when most people are intuitively assessing the economy, the factors they include actually correspond to U6.
Quote from: vdeane on June 06, 2018, 01:43:45 PM
Plus, while official unemployment numbers are U3 (excluding people who stopped looking for work and who are underemployed), when most people are intuitively assessing the economy, the factors they include actually correspond to U6.
Which still is nowhere near Great Depression unemployment levels. To get there, it has to be much higher. We're talking U15+, even U20. U6 is still fairly low.
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 06, 2018, 11:35:45 AM
$70 to have your A/C recharged is a steal - I spent at least $300 to have it done about 20 years ago.
And even $70 is too much. A $14 hose kit from Walmart and a $5 can of refrigerant works just fine. My wife's been having issues with her AC for a couple of years now. At first, we bought two or three of the $17 hose-and-can kits, but now I realized that a permanent investment in the hose kit and possibly a couple of the small cans a year will be more economical. If the AC starts blowing hot, which may happen a time or two more this year, I'll just grab a cheap can of refrigerant and recharge it myself.
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 06, 2018, 11:35:45 AM$70 to have your A/C recharged is a steal - I spent at least $300 to have it done about 20 years ago.
The last time I had it done, it was a line item among many others on the bill (I think it was for repairs after a deer collision that took out the radiator and A/C condenser). Possibly it might have been quite a bit higher if I had taken the car in just for a recharge.
Quote from: hbelkins on June 06, 2018, 02:43:11 PMAnd even $70 is too much. A $14 hose kit from Walmart and a $5 can of refrigerant works just fine. My wife's been having issues with her AC for a couple of years now. At first, we bought two or three of the $17 hose-and-can kits, but now I realized that a permanent investment in the hose kit and possibly a couple of the small cans a year will be more economical. If the AC starts blowing hot, which may happen a time or two more this year, I'll just grab a cheap can of refrigerant and recharge it myself.
The cheap kits won't work for my Saturn and, presumably, many other car models because the low-side pressure barely changes while the high-side pressure fluctuates quite a bit according to the amount of refrigerant in the system, meaning the latter has to be monitored to determine when the system is fully charged. This entails a manifold gauge set (currently about $60 from Harbor Freight).
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 06, 2018, 07:26:51 AM
Quote from: Nanis on June 06, 2018, 02:41:32 AM
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 02, 2018, 10:39:40 PM
The reception we were getting with an HD antenna was crap, that's why we pay to get the OTA channels through the cable company. I also understand OTA isn't really an option in rural mountainous areas.
Unless you lived on top of a really big hill and had a roof antenna in a rural market, you wouldn't get anything. That's a good point. But if you're in an urban poverty area (like me), this is invalid
We we're living in a third-floor apartment in an urban area and reception was crap, particularly in bad weather. This was with an indoor HD antenna.
those HD antennas are quite crap. If you just have an old antenna, it works much better
Quote from: Brandon on June 06, 2018, 01:27:31 PM
It is? I see 3.5% for your region.
https://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.oh_cincinnati_msa.htm
I'll guarantee it's not 3.5%. Last it was even close was probably nearly 40 years ago.
Once when I was about 13 or 14, my dad drove to Portsmouth, Ohio, with just me and my brother. It was about 95 degrees that day. We got right around Portsmouth when the air conditioner in the car suddenly broke. My dad and my brother both groaned, but I thought it was hilarious. That's because I was sitting in the back seat, and they were monopolizing the AC.
Quote from: Nanis on June 07, 2018, 04:23:19 PMthose HD antennas are quite crap.
This was a pretty highly-rated HD antenna.
Quote from: bandit957 on June 07, 2018, 04:51:37 PM
Quote from: Brandon on June 06, 2018, 01:27:31 PM
It is? I see 3.5% for your region.
https://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.oh_cincinnati_msa.htm
I'll guarantee it's not 3.5%. Last it was even close was probably nearly 40 years ago.
I doubt it was as low as current during the stagflation of the 1970s.
Quote from: Brandon on June 07, 2018, 05:51:06 PM
I doubt it was as low as current during the stagflation of the 1970s.
It was much lower then than it is now.
today I found a needle on the floor
Quote from: bandit957 on June 07, 2018, 06:21:38 PM
Quote from: Brandon on June 07, 2018, 05:51:06 PM
I doubt it was as low as current during the stagflation of the 1970s.
It was much lower then than it is now.
Wrong. Here's the Bureau of Labor on the subject:
https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNU04000000?years_option=all_years&periods_option=specific_periods&periods=Annual+Data
Quote
1970-1980
Year - Rate
1970 4.9
1971 5.9
1972 5.6
1973 4.9
1974 5.6
1975 8.5
1976 7.7
1977 7.1
1978 6.1
1979 5.8
1980 7.1
And current:
Quote
2015 5.3
2016 4.9
2017 4.4
The highest listed by the BOL is 8.5% in 1975.
Quote from: Brandon on June 08, 2018, 05:55:06 AM
Quote from: bandit957 on June 07, 2018, 06:21:38 PM
Quote from: Brandon on June 07, 2018, 05:51:06 PM
I doubt it was as low as current during the stagflation of the 1970s.
It was much lower then than it is now.
Wrong. Here's the Bureau of Labor on the subject:
https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNU04000000?years_option=all_years&periods_option=specific_periods&periods=Annual+Data
Quote
1970-1980
Year - Rate
1970 4.9
1971 5.9
1972 5.6
1973 4.9
1974 5.6
1975 8.5
1976 7.7
1977 7.1
1978 6.1
1979 5.8
1980 7.1
And current:
Quote
2015 5.3
2016 4.9
2017 4.4
The highest listed by the BOL is 8.5% in 1975.
That's national data, right?
True sign of poverty is when you notice that price of salt went up...
Quote from: Brandon on June 08, 2018, 05:55:06 AM
Wrong. Here's the Bureau of Labor on the subject:
https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNU04000000?years_option=all_years&periods_option=specific_periods&periods=Annual+Data
Those numbers were cooked. The economy was booming in the late '70s.
Quote from: bandit957 on June 08, 2018, 09:18:43 AM
Quote from: Brandon on June 08, 2018, 05:55:06 AM
Wrong. Here's the Bureau of Labor on the subject:
https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNU04000000?years_option=all_years&periods_option=specific_periods&periods=Annual+Data
Those numbers were cooked. The economy was booming in the late '70s.
Unemployment rate is not the only thing that determines whether the economy is booming or not. Also, 7% is not that high.
Quote from: 1 on June 08, 2018, 08:01:48 AM
Quote from: Brandon on June 08, 2018, 05:55:06 AM
Quote from: bandit957 on June 07, 2018, 06:21:38 PM
Quote from: Brandon on June 07, 2018, 05:51:06 PM
I doubt it was as low as current during the stagflation of the 1970s.
It was much lower then than it is now.
Wrong. Here's the Bureau of Labor on the subject:
https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNU04000000?years_option=all_years&periods_option=specific_periods&periods=Annual+Data
Quote
1970-1980
Year - Rate
1970 4.9
1971 5.9
1972 5.6
1973 4.9
1974 5.6
1975 8.5
1976 7.7
1977 7.1
1978 6.1
1979 5.8
1980 7.1
And current:
Quote
2015 5.3
2016 4.9
2017 4.4
The highest listed by the BOL is 8.5% in 1975.
That's national data, right?
Yes, national data from the BOL itself. There's also local data, and a whole bunch of other metrics there.
Quote from: 1 on June 08, 2018, 09:20:29 AM
Quote from: bandit957 on June 08, 2018, 09:18:43 AM
Quote from: Brandon on June 08, 2018, 05:55:06 AM
Wrong. Here's the Bureau of Labor on the subject:
https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNU04000000?years_option=all_years&periods_option=specific_periods&periods=Annual+Data
Those numbers were cooked. The economy was booming in the late '70s.
Unemployment rate is not the only thing that determines whether the economy is booming or not. Also, 7% is not that high.
The 70s were known best for what was called "stagflation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stagflation)", a condition wherein inflation increases, but there's not a whole lot of growth for the economy as a whole.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_(1964%E2%80%9380)#%22Stagflation%22
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973%E2%80%9375_recession
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970s_energy_crisis
I decided long ago that I was not going to put much credence in headline unemployment numbers unless I knew exactly how they were measured and calculated. I presume that information is available online for the key BLS measures, but it is certainly harder to find than the numbers themselves.
The media is currently reporting that the economy is booming, unemployment is at an all-time low, and job postings exceed the number of available workers for the first time in US history. What they never say is whether the postings are, in fact, fillable. I serve on the board of a library that has a $8 million annual operating budget and about six months ago we were told we had to return about $300,000 of it--and additionally implement budget cuts and customer fee increases--because it had been earmarked for employee salaries for positions we were not given authority to fill.
And even in cases where the employer actually goes ahead and advertises a job opportunity, it is so cheap to do so now (with applications accepted online only, etc.) that any given posting is more likely to reflect the employer's desire to sample the labor market than any actual intention to fill the position.
Meanwhile, I am missing two stacks of recordable Blu-ray discs that I ordered from Amazon last fall and that never arrived. The presumption has to be that they were stolen somewhere along the delivery chain, probably from our mailbox. And earlier this week we spent about an hour and a half setting up a new checking account because we had two checks, tendered in payment of bills, stolen from our mailbox. The envelopes containing the checks in question were sitting in the mailbox, red flag up, for less than an hour, and I discovered the red flag still up, mailbox door open, and checks gone literally only 30 seconds before the letter carrier stopped by with the mail. Our local news has reported that postal employees have been finding gum (clearly designed to intercept envelopes containing payment instruments) at blue letterboxes around town.
When people are so hard up that they are willing to tamper with the US mail to a degree that is unprecedented locally--committing multiple federal offenses in the process--is this the sign of a healthy economy?
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 08, 2018, 09:50:04 AM
When people are so hard up that they are willing to tamper with the US mail to a degree that is unprecedented locally--committing multiple federal offenses in the process--is this the sign of a healthy economy?
Or it could be that instead of actually getting a job and working hard, they, like most criminals, choose the easy route of just stealing what they can from other people (who have jobs and are working hard). We had plenty of crime in a lot of boom times as well as down times in the past. Why would today be any different?
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 08, 2018, 09:50:04 AMjob postings exceed the number of available workers for the first time in US history
Yeah, this is nonsense; it's been the case for years.
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 08, 2018, 10:01:09 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 08, 2018, 09:50:04 AMjob postings exceed the number of available workers for the first time in US history
Yeah, this is nonsense; it's been the case for years.
Exactly. Being in the STEM fields, I notice it quite acutely. They're good jobs, pay well, yet getting kids interested in engineering or science seems to be a lot tougher than interesting them in majoring in some liberal arts bullshit. And heaven forbid little Johnny dare to take up a decent career as a mechanic or welder instead of going to college for a degree he can't even use.
I have a liberal arts degree and make a good living, albeit not my in exact field of study, but I wouldn't say it's "useless." STEM was out of the question, since I'm not very good at science and I'm only good enough at math to get an MBA.
I don't think any college degree is useless, even if you end up flipping burgers after you get it. You got something out of going to college.
Quote from: Brandon on June 08, 2018, 09:47:40 AM
The 70s were known best for what was called "stagflation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stagflation)", a condition wherein inflation increases, but there's not a whole lot of growth for the economy as a whole.
It was worse in later decades though.
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 08, 2018, 09:50:04 AMThe media is currently reporting that the economy is booming, unemployment is at an all-time low, and job postings exceed the number of available workers for the first time in US history.
The Media outright lies.
Quote from: Brandon on June 08, 2018, 09:54:02 AMOr it could be that instead of actually getting a job and working hard, they, like most criminals, choose the easy route of just stealing what they can from other people (who have jobs and are working hard). We had plenty of crime in a lot of boom times as well as down times in the past. Why would today be any different?
Yes, there is always some crime when times are good. The point here is that resort to criminality is a decision made at the margin and that margin is a lot less further out than it used to be in cities like Wichita, where the local economy was essentially recession-proof since the three mainstays (ag, oil, and airplanes) rarely went down at the same time. Airplanes started going down in the late noughties when Boeing transferred production out of town (in some cases, out of country) and divested, and the bulk of employment growth locally since then has been in low-paid service occupations.
Quote from: Brandon on June 08, 2018, 11:46:49 AMBeing in the STEM fields, I notice it quite acutely. They're good jobs, pay well, yet getting kids interested in engineering or science seems to be a lot tougher than interesting them in majoring in some liberal arts bullshit. And heaven forbid little Johnny dare to take up a decent career as a mechanic or welder instead of going to college for a degree he can't even use.
Employment can be difficult to find even with a good degree in a hard STEM field like math or physics.
And even from the narrow standpoint of clearing the job market, there are a couple of problems with the current tendency to regard postsecondary education as an investment that is to pay itself off within a very short period of time. First, there is an aspect of intergenerational fairness since many people in their forties and fifties received their college education at very low cost, believing (as Abefroman329 says) that it has value completely independent of the ability to get a good-paying job through the credentialing effect, or indeed the field. Many of these people have had much less difficulty finding good-paying employment simply because their entry into the workforce was well-timed. Second, asking people to commit to a particular career track before they are even out of adolescence--thereby potentially foreclosing other options that might yield better life satisfaction overall--is often a recipe for regret.
Quote from: bandit957 on June 08, 2018, 12:47:40 PM
Quote from: Brandon on June 08, 2018, 09:47:40 AM
The 70s were known best for what was called "stagflation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stagflation)", a condition wherein inflation increases, but there's not a whole lot of growth for the economy as a whole.
It was worse in later decades though.
Citations? Please feel free to provide links and references.
Quote from: Brandon on June 08, 2018, 01:04:59 PM
Citations? Please feel free to provide links and references.
Forty-five years of life.
I'm not sure how much the economy is booming even in STEM. I majored in computer science with intent on a career in IT, only to find that nobody would even give me an interview. I ended up taking a programming job that didn't work out (since I'm not as good at programming, and thought I'd be a network/system administrator anyways, so that's what my focus was on in college), and later ended up here in a job in a completely different field. I probably should have thought about web development (which I could actually do with more experience) or GIS (which I hadn't even heard of because what little GIS Clarkson has is confined to the civil engineering program for some reason), if I had been smarter.
Granted, it probably doesn't help that I'm not interested in dealing with metro areas above a certain size (not willing to deal with the high cost of living and horrible traffic) or outside a day's drive to Rochester, NY (even Albany can feel far away since three and a half hours of Thruway each way, 7+ times per year, gets old fast). Originally I even had "not outside Wegmans territory" as a criteria, but that one didn't work out.
It's unfortunate that US companies don't do true entry-level hiring any more. Even "entry level" jobs require lots of experience and networking to get, since businesses won't train any more, and applying for job postings online is basically futile.
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 08, 2018, 01:01:06 PM
First, there is an aspect of intergenerational fairness since many people in their forties and fifties received their college education at very low cost, believing (as Abefroman329 says) that it has value completely independent of the ability to get a good-paying job through the credentialing effect, or indeed the field. Many of these people have had much less difficulty finding good-paying employment simply because their entry into the workforce was well-timed.
I got my degree in 2001, at 22, and entered the workforce in the middle of a recession. My first job paid $26K, which was not "good-paying," even 17 years ago.
Quote from: bandit957 on June 08, 2018, 01:16:04 PM
Quote from: Brandon on June 08, 2018, 01:04:59 PM
Citations? Please feel free to provide links and references.
Forty-five years of life.
That's merely anecdotal and not backed up by any other citations or data (unlike that I've posted). Now, do you have any real citations for data that's not ancedotal?
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 08, 2018, 09:50:04 AM
Meanwhile, I am missing two stacks of recordable Blu-ray discs that I ordered from Amazon last fall and that never arrived. The presumption has to be that they were stolen somewhere along the delivery chain, probably from our mailbox.
Or it's possible that they could have met with somewhat of a more tragic demise and were destroyed in a vehicle fire, wreck, etc. I've heard numerous reports of mail and parcel vehicles running into these troubles. Did you get a tracking number with the order that could be traced? (I'm presuming that if you did, you would have already ran the number to see where the last place the package was scanned was.)
QuoteAnd earlier this week we spent about an hour and a half setting up a new checking account because we had two checks, tendered in payment of bills, stolen from our mailbox. The envelopes containing the checks in question were sitting in the mailbox, red flag up, for less than an hour, and I discovered the red flag still up, mailbox door open, and checks gone literally only 30 seconds before the letter carrier stopped by with the mail. Our local news has reported that postal employees have been finding gum (clearly designed to intercept envelopes containing payment instruments) at blue letterboxes around town.
Not sure what gum would do or how it would be used in these mailbox heists. Also surprised that Tim hasn't jumped all over the gum reference.
QuoteWhen people are so hard up that they are willing to tamper with the US mail to a degree that is unprecedented locally--committing multiple federal offenses in the process--is this the sign of a healthy economy?
I'm going to guess it's either a sign of boredom/lack of morals/greed/laziness or someone looking to feed their drug habit. Just about every burglary or robbery in my area can be traced to someone looking for cash to buy pills or meth.
Quote from: vdeane on June 08, 2018, 01:26:15 PM
I'm not sure how much the economy is booming even in STEM. I majored in computer science with intent on a career in IT, only to find that nobody would even give me an interview. I ended up taking a programming job that didn't work out (since I'm not as good at programming, and thought I'd be a network/system administrator anyways, so that's what my focus was on in college), and later ended up here in a job in a completely different field. I probably should have thought about web development (which I could actually do with more experience) or GIS (which I hadn't even heard of because what little GIS Clarkson has is confined to the civil engineering program for some reason), if I had been smarter.
Granted, it probably doesn't help that I'm not interested in dealing with metro areas above a certain size (not willing to deal with the high cost of living and horrible traffic) or outside a day's drive to Rochester, NY (even Albany can feel far away since three and a half hours of Thruway each way, 7+ times per year, gets old fast). Originally I even had "not outside Wegmans territory" as a criteria, but that one didn't work out.
It's unfortunate that US companies don't do true entry-level hiring any more. Even "entry level" jobs require lots of experience and networking to get, since businesses won't train any more, and applying for job postings online is basically futile.
I was actually thinking about going to my local technical college so I could prepare myself for a degree in IT/networking, but I chose to pursue a 4 year degree in computer science instead. About a year down the road I figured out that my school's computer science program was oriented on programming/software development and not much on IT, so I couldn't really do anything related to what I wanted to do. That's what made me want to pursue something more related to transportation. I tried to go into civil engineering but that was too tough for me so now I'm going into GIS.
Quote from: hbelkins on June 08, 2018, 10:17:57 PM
QuoteAnd earlier this week we spent about an hour and a half setting up a new checking account because we had two checks, tendered in payment of bills, stolen from our mailbox. The envelopes containing the checks in question were sitting in the mailbox, red flag up, for less than an hour, and I discovered the red flag still up, mailbox door open, and checks gone literally only 30 seconds before the letter carrier stopped by with the mail. Our local news has reported that postal employees have been finding gum (clearly designed to intercept envelopes containing payment instruments) at blue letterboxes around town.
Not sure what gum would do or how it would be used in these mailbox heists. Also surprised that Tim hasn't jumped all over the gum reference.
The gum would be placed in the slot of a blue USPS drop box (not a home mail box) so that as envelopes are deposited in the slot, they stick in place rather than dropping into the box. That would allow someone to come by later and pull the envelope back out of the box.
I seriously want to dump my iPhone 5c and go back to a landline.
I was a child in the 1980s, but my parents weren't yuppies (my father worked in a fire dept., my mother as a matron in local sheriff until I was 3 years old), then they divorced when I was 7 and I grew up with a single mother. I grew up in a lower-to-middle class town (Indio Cal.) not far from higher-income, largely retirement and tourist attraction places like Palm Desert and Palm Springs. Can't drive while in high school, No house of my own until I hit my early 30s, no internet until age 17, no cell phone until age 22, and Im now 38 raising my 3 kids in a lifestyle similar to my childhood in this millennia: the great recession in 2008-09 smack between New Years day 2000 and the current boom time in 2018.
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 08, 2018, 01:01:06 PMEmployment can be difficult to find even with a good degree in a hard STEM field like math or physics.
Well, when people say “STEM,” more often than not they really mean “TE.”
Quote from: Brandon on June 08, 2018, 11:46:49 AMBeing in the STEM fields, I notice it quite acutely. They're good jobs, pay well, yet getting kids interested in engineering or science seems to be a lot tougher than interesting them in majoring in some liberal arts bullshit.
Such an attitude is common among STEM people, and I’ve never really understood it. Is there something about these disciplines that encourages this type of thinking? Or that attracts a certain type of personality? It can’t just be a question of the ease of finding work post-study, since, as others have pointed out, it isn’t necessarily easy to get a job in a STEM field.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on September 28, 2018, 11:02:26 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 08, 2018, 01:01:06 PMEmployment can be difficult to find even with a good degree in a hard STEM field like math or physics.
Well, when people say "STEM," more often than not they really mean "TE."
Quote from: Brandon on June 08, 2018, 11:46:49 AMBeing in the STEM fields, I notice it quite acutely. They're good jobs, pay well, yet getting kids interested in engineering or science seems to be a lot tougher than interesting them in majoring in some liberal arts bullshit.
Such an attitude is common among STEM people, and I've never really understood it. Is there something about these disciplines that encourages this type of thinking? Or that attracts a certain type of personality? It can't just be a question of the ease of finding work post-study, since, as others have pointed out, it isn't necessarily easy to get a job in a STEM field.
I can personally attest that finding employment in the STEM field is far from easy, especially with Autism.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 02, 2018, 03:15:01 PM
Quote from: bandit957 on June 02, 2018, 03:06:31 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 02, 2018, 02:59:27 PMHard to fathom an economic situation so bad that literally you fear poverty past the age where it would really matter anymore with accumulated savings.
I can actually imagine it.
We're talking a time where there was no such thing as programs like Social Security or FDIC. Literally you could have a small fortune in the bank that would suddenly disappear when your bank went under. That's how things like stuff dollars in tin cans and mattresses get started. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe the unemployment level has even gotten close to the levels of the Great Depression in any recent recession.
One thing that I recall in recent discussions is that the official unemployment rate in the 1930s was what we now call the 'workforce non-participation rate' (inverse of the percentage of all able-bodied adults who are actually in the work force and working), whereas today's (since at least the 1950s or so) 'unemployment rate' figure does not include able-bodied adults who have given up and stopped looking for work.
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on September 29, 2018, 10:41:26 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 02, 2018, 03:15:01 PM
Quote from: bandit957 on June 02, 2018, 03:06:31 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 02, 2018, 02:59:27 PMHard to fathom an economic situation so bad that literally you fear poverty past the age where it would really matter anymore with accumulated savings.
I can actually imagine it.
We're talking a time where there was no such thing as programs like Social Security or FDIC. Literally you could have a small fortune in the bank that would suddenly disappear when your bank went under. That's how things like stuff dollars in tin cans and mattresses get started. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe the unemployment level has even gotten close to the levels of the Great Depression in any recent recession.
One thing that I recall in recent discussions is that the official unemployment rate in the 1930s was what we now call the 'workforce non-participation rate' (inverse of the percentage of all able-bodied adults who are actually in the work force and working), whereas today's (since at least the 1950s or so) 'unemployment rate' figure does not include able-bodied adults who have given up and stopped looking for work.
Mike
That was during the Reagan administration, I believe.