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Author Topic: New Style of intersection requires 11 videos to navigate  (Read 2241 times)


zachary_amaryllis

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Re: New Style of intersection requires 11 videos to navigate
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2020, 07:41:08 PM »

https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/first-of-its-kind-intersection-in-p-e-i-requires-11-instructional-videos-to-explain-1.5178215?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark

having not ever driven through one of these.. this looks to my uninitiated eye like a terrible idea..

but there may be things beyond what i understand that factor into this, too.
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kalvado

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Re: New Style of intersection requires 11 videos to navigate
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2020, 08:04:05 PM »

11 videos instead of one grade separated intersection.. Hmm... Sounds like a plan.
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Alps

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Re: New Style of intersection requires 11 videos to navigate
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2020, 09:58:34 PM »

11 videos instead of one grade separated intersection.. Hmm... Sounds like a plan.
It really shouldn't be difficult if drivers just follow signs. It'll be the old locals who are used to turning left at the light who will ignore the earlier left turn. They'll learn quickly.

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Re: New Style of intersection requires 11 videos to navigate
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2020, 01:20:58 PM »

The intersection sees significant tourist traffic, including those going to the Souris ferry. I feel like it may cause major accidents sooner rather than later.
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kalvado

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Re: New Style of intersection requires 11 videos to navigate
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2020, 01:38:49 PM »

11 videos instead of one grade separated intersection.. Hmm... Sounds like a plan.
It really shouldn't be difficult if drivers just follow signs. It'll be the old locals who are used to turning left at the light who will ignore the earlier left turn. They'll learn quickly.
Not so sure. At the very least, drivers would have to associate a light pretty far away with their movement while choosing a proper road at the same time. To make things worse, there will be multiple lights within a field of view at the same time. As simple as that - headline image in linked article shows a small angle X intersection, with no signage indicating which of two outlets is the proper one.  Location of Prince Edward Island doesn't provide too much confidence that there will be no snow days during tourist season, so pavement markings are only that useful. So, we are all set for a head-on collision.
Another potential issue - entire system goes totally toast without power, or with controller glitch. Not sure that required reliability - basically medical/aerospace grade equipment - will be cheaper than an overpass.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2020, 01:41:43 PM by kalvado »
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ghYHZ

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Re: New Style of intersection requires 11 videos to navigate
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2020, 06:55:36 AM »

Location of Prince Edward Island doesn't provide too much confidence that there will be no snow days during tourist season, so pavement markings are only that useful. So, we are all set for a head-on collision.
Another potential issue - entire system goes totally toast without power, or with controller glitch. Not sure that required reliability - basically medical/aerospace grade equipment - will be cheaper than an overpass.

Other than a possible freak dusting of snow in late April......I don't think I'd be too concerned about snow in the tourist season! Today is Nov 9 and it will be sunny and 60.....tomorrow 65 but we're looking for a cool down by weeks end!
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Chris

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Re: New Style of intersection requires 11 videos to navigate
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2020, 09:13:58 AM »

Google Earth has captured a recent satellite image of that intersection:


Satellite image dated September 21, 2020

cbeach40

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Re: New Style of intersection requires 11 videos to navigate
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2020, 11:49:02 AM »

11 videos instead of one grade separated intersection.. Hmm... Sounds like a plan.

It doesn't *need* the videos, these aren't actually all that hard in person. They just made the videos to demonstrate it and then some media hack wrote a shitty headline.

Not so sure. At the very least, drivers would have to associate a light pretty far away with their movement while choosing a proper road at the same time.

They're using large overhead signs, a rarity in PEI. It'll be pretty obvious guidance.

To make things worse, there will be multiple lights within a field of view at the same time.

It's in an urban environment so that's not a factor.

As simple as that - headline image in linked article shows a small angle X intersection, with no signage indicating which of two outlets is the proper one.  Location of Prince Edward Island doesn't provide too much confidence that there will be no snow days during tourist season, so pavement markings are only that useful. So, we are all set for a head-on collision.

Regulatory signage would be required on a facility like this, likely left out of the animation for simplicity. Curb radii is such that a right turn into the left turn channel is deterred.

Another potential issue - entire system goes totally toast without power, or with controller glitch. Not sure that required reliability - basically medical/aerospace grade equipment - will be cheaper than an overpass.

Literally every signalized intersection has that same issue regarding power supply.

The controller for an intersection such as this would be identical hardware to any other signal, just might be three of them. They run about $40K apiece. Grade separation would probably run about $10M, plus some homes and businesses would likely need to be acquired. Plus since the issue here is cause by turning traffic you'd need to build ramps here, so that's millions more. This solution is peanuts compared to an interchange.

There are other examples throughout North America of this type of intersection. Plus, other measures like the Michigan Left (same concept, just downstream crossing instead of upstream) work just fine and have been through many power failures.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2020, 12:13:06 PM by cbeach40 »
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kphoger

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Re: New Style of intersection requires 11 videos to navigate
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2020, 02:25:03 PM »

Wait, isn't this just a CFI?  That's not a new style of intersection.  That's been around for two decades.
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Re: New Style of intersection requires 11 videos to navigate
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2020, 02:30:22 PM »

Wait, isn't this just a CFI?  That's not a new style of intersection.  That's been around for two decades.

The article suggests it's the first such intersection anywhere in Canada, so it's perhaps understandable why the source describes it that way (much as how the US media tend to think nothing outside the USA counts).
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kalvado

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Re: New Style of intersection requires 11 videos to navigate
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2020, 08:06:40 AM »

First of all, will do my best to keep the formating, but forgive me if there are issues.

Not so sure. At the very least, drivers would have to associate a light pretty far away with their movement while choosing a proper road at the same time.

They're using large overhead signs, a rarity in PEI. It'll be pretty obvious guidance.

To make things worse, there will be multiple lights within a field of view at the same time.

It's in an urban environment so that's not a factor.
Let me put it so: signage, which is essencial for complex layout, is not shown in video - and I can easily believe it will be lacking in real life as well.
As simple as that - no stop line for TCH traffic on an X in headline image with traffic light on a backside of an intersection. How many drivers will be blocking X, given they need to stop pretty far back? I drive through an intersection with somewhat similar problem - so my anwer is  "a lot"..
Curb radius is likely of litle help here, it is not seen. Signage - especially pavement - wearout is also an issue. As far as I understand, this is a largely tourist spot, so many new drivers at any time; complex solution which commuters eventually get used to is a different story. 

As simple as that - headline image in linked article shows a small angle X intersection, with no signage indicating which of two outlets is the proper one.  Location of Prince Edward Island doesn't provide too much confidence that there will be no snow days during tourist season, so pavement markings are only that useful. So, we are all set for a head-on collision.

Regulatory signage would be required on a facility like this, likely left out of the animation for simplicity. Curb radii is such that a right turn into the left turn channel is deterred.

Another potential issue - entire system goes totally toast without power, or with controller glitch. Not sure that required reliability - basically medical/aerospace grade equipment - will be cheaper than an overpass.

Literally every signalized intersection has that same issue regarding power supply.

The controller for an intersection such as this would be identical hardware to any other signal, just might be three of them. They run about $40K apiece. Grade separation would probably run about $10M, plus some homes and businesses would likely need to be acquired. Plus since the issue here is cause by turning traffic you'd need to build ramps here, so that's millions more. This solution is peanuts compared to an interchange.

There are other examples throughout North America of this type of intersection. Plus, other measures like the Michigan Left (same concept, just downstream crossing instead of upstream) work just fine and have been through many power failures.
Scale of the job seen on a google map easily warrant multimillion project bill anyway.
And I don't fully agree with "same as any other traffic light" asessment. This is a dense cluster of light, with most movements seing 2 lights - and slowing down more than for a single one.
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jeffandnicole

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Re: New Style of intersection requires 11 videos to navigate
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2020, 10:26:57 AM »

Let me put it so: signage, which is essencial for complex layout, is not shown in video - and I can easily believe it will be lacking in real life as well.
As simple as that - no stop line for TCH traffic on an X in headline image with traffic light on a backside of an intersection. How many drivers will be blocking X, given they need to stop pretty far back? I drive through an intersection with somewhat similar problem - so my anwer is  "a lot"..
Curb radius is likely of litle help here, it is not seen. Signage - especially pavement - wearout is also an issue. As far as I understand, this is a largely tourist spot, so many new drivers at any time; complex solution which commuters eventually get used to is a different story. 

They produced 11 videos simply because they had the software to do so.  Does anyone really need a video to show them how to make a right turn?

While the intersection design itself is unusual, coming upon intersections that aren't typical designs occur all the time.  You've probably encountered them on many of your trips, and barely gave it a second thought. 

Since all the lights at this intersection operate as a single unit, they should be timed to prevent any intersection blockage.

I've mentioned before, NJDOT built one of these type intersections way back in the 1950's, which was done to replace a traffic circle!  (Way longer ago than the 2 decades referenced before).  70 years later, and the intersection still performs very well.  In typical NJ fashion, the sightlines, medians and lane widths are more narrow than standard, and there are numerous driveways and businesses in the area.  Hell, there's RIRO cross streets within the intersection limits, and even a side street that gets thrown into the mix right at the intersection that's not even controlled by the traffic light cycle, but rather has a stop sign.  https://goo.gl/maps/8uPJRV1ynTPECpCc7 

So, seriously, if THAT mess doesn't generate any problems, what P.E.I. is proposing is a piece of cake.

As for seeing additional lights in view...meh. Frequently, you'll see green, yellow and/or red approaching this intersection.  https://goo.gl/maps/ttogubmV3AFNkZ25A  https://goo.gl/maps/k89Vi6pT3ikvnoyY6
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1995hoo

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Re: New Style of intersection requires 11 videos to navigate
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2020, 10:29:41 AM »

....

As for seeing additional lights in view...meh. Frequently, you'll see green, yellow and/or red approaching this intersection.  https://goo.gl/maps/ttogubmV3AFNkZ25A  https://goo.gl/maps/k89Vi6pT3ikvnoyY6

Nicest thing there is those markers pointing the way to the bridges. Good stuff.
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jeffandnicole

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Re: New Style of intersection requires 11 videos to navigate
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2020, 10:53:14 AM »

....

As for seeing additional lights in view...meh. Frequently, you'll see green, yellow and/or red approaching this intersection.  https://goo.gl/maps/ttogubmV3AFNkZ25A  https://goo.gl/maps/k89Vi6pT3ikvnoyY6

Nicest thing there is those markers pointing the way to the bridges. Good stuff.

I have no idea why the Commodore Barry Bridge sign is signed this way, or what the intention was.  Best I can figure out (times in freeflowing traffic)...

It wants you to exit 130 South, take 168 South, then take 295 South, back to 130 South, to 322 West.  This way takes 19.7 Miles and 24 minutes.

The fastest way is taking 130 South to 76 East to 295 South to 130 South to 322 West: 18.1 Miles, 19 minutes.

The shortest way is taking 130 South, which multiplexes with 295 South, to 322 West: 17.1 Miles, 20 minutes.

As the bridge was built in the mid 1970's, those 3 routes have existed for the entire time with almost no significant modification to any route.
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kalvado

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Re: New Style of intersection requires 11 videos to navigate
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2020, 11:04:24 AM »

Let me put it so: signage, which is essencial for complex layout, is not shown in video - and I can easily believe it will be lacking in real life as well.
As simple as that - no stop line for TCH traffic on an X in headline image with traffic light on a backside of an intersection. How many drivers will be blocking X, given they need to stop pretty far back? I drive through an intersection with somewhat similar problem - so my anwer is  "a lot"..
Curb radius is likely of litle help here, it is not seen. Signage - especially pavement - wearout is also an issue. As far as I understand, this is a largely tourist spot, so many new drivers at any time; complex solution which commuters eventually get used to is a different story. 

They produced 11 videos simply because they had the software to do so.  Does anyone really need a video to show them how to make a right turn?

While the intersection design itself is unusual, coming upon intersections that aren't typical designs occur all the time.  You've probably encountered them on many of your trips, and barely gave it a second thought. 

Since all the lights at this intersection operate as a single unit, they should be timed to prevent any intersection blockage.

I've mentioned before, NJDOT built one of these type intersections way back in the 1950's, which was done to replace a traffic circle!  (Way longer ago than the 2 decades referenced before).  70 years later, and the intersection still performs very well.  In typical NJ fashion, the sightlines, medians and lane widths are more narrow than standard, and there are numerous driveways and businesses in the area.  Hell, there's RIRO cross streets within the intersection limits, and even a side street that gets thrown into the mix right at the intersection that's not even controlled by the traffic light cycle, but rather has a stop sign.  https://goo.gl/maps/8uPJRV1ynTPECpCc7 

So, seriously, if THAT mess doesn't generate any problems, what P.E.I. is proposing is a piece of cake.

As for seeing additional lights in view...meh. Frequently, you'll see green, yellow and/or red approaching this intersection.  https://goo.gl/maps/ttogubmV3AFNkZ25A  https://goo.gl/maps/k89Vi6pT3ikvnoyY6
To be honest, I would love to be proven pessimistic by future traffic stats. We'll see eventually...
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cbeach40

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Re: New Style of intersection requires 11 videos to navigate
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2020, 02:28:18 PM »

First of all, will do my best to keep the formating, but forgive me if there are issues.

Not so sure. At the very least, drivers would have to associate a light pretty far away with their movement while choosing a proper road at the same time.

They're using large overhead signs, a rarity in PEI. It'll be pretty obvious guidance.

To make things worse, there will be multiple lights within a field of view at the same time.

It's in an urban environment so that's not a factor.
Let me put it so: signage, which is essencial for complex layout, is not shown in video - and I can easily believe it will be lacking in real life as well.

The signage is indeed shown in the videos. Maybe not on the CTV site, but certainly going to the primary source the ones there do show overhead signage:
https://www.princeedwardisland.ca/en/information/transportation-infrastructure-and-energy/displaced-left-turn-intersection

As simple as that - no stop line for TCH traffic on an X in headline image with traffic light on a backside of an intersection. How many drivers will be blocking X, given they need to stop pretty far back? I drive through an intersection with somewhat similar problem - so my anwer is  "a lot"..

Legally there would have to be a stop bar there, so it would be required for reality but immaterial for the animation. I'm more inclined to believe that the animators missed it than the engineers did.

Curb radius is likely of litle help here, it is not seen. Signage - especially pavement - wearout is also an issue. As far as I understand, this is a largely tourist spot, so many new drivers at any time; complex solution which commuters eventually get used to is a different story. 

Design features like curb radii are deliberate features that subconsciously alert drivers. For example, try making a right turn at an intersection with a channelized right, but at the intersection itself, not via the channel. You'll be very aware very quickly that's not something you should do. It's not the be all and end all, but that's what signage is for.

Signage wear is an issue on literally every road. But that's why maintenance crews exist. Furthermore, the issue of a wrong way move here would only impact the left turn collector lanes, not any high speed mainline. Meanwhile freeway offramps also just have signs and sometimes pavement markings to indicate that's the wrong way - and the consequences of a wrong way move on a freeway can be catastrophic.

Scale of the job seen on a google map easily warrant multimillion project bill anyway.
And I don't fully agree with "same as any other traffic light" asessment. This is a dense cluster of light, with most movements seing 2 lights - and slowing down more than for a single one.

Drivers will encounter one signal at a time and will treat them as such. They just will consider what they have to do at that moment, "where am I going, do I have a green or red, etc". It's the same as any cluster of signals in an urban environment.

Scale of the job seen on a google map easily warrant multimillion project bill anyway.

This project came in a $5.3 million for the reconstruction. So half of what a structure would have cost, to say nothing about the ramps, signals the ramp terminals, expropriation of properties, and construction staging.

For a comparable project to that, Highway 6 at Laird Road in Guelph, ON, came in at $15.5M in 2011 (almost $18M today). Though it required far less property than this project would.

And I don't fully agree with "same as any other traffic light" asessment.

Based on the statement that the "entire system goes totally toast without power, or with controller glitch", that is true of any signalized intersection. Once the power goes off, the traffic control ceases to work.

This is a dense cluster of light, with most movements seing 2 lights - and slowing down more than for a single one.

Yes, you will encounter two signalized intersections in quick succession. But again, that's absolutely no different than what one would encounter ion an urban environment.


The article suggests it's the first such intersection anywhere in Canada, so it's perhaps understandable why the source describes it that way (much as how the US media tend to think nothing outside the USA counts).

First purpose-built one. The intersection of Bathurst, Lakeshore, and Fleet in Toronto has evolved into this sort of design for the EB-NB movement, but not quite the same.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.6360887,-79.4027656,275m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en
But not going to expect some reporter thousands of km away to know something that obscure.
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