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Virginia

Started by Alex, February 04, 2009, 12:22:16 AM

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froggie

#6425
^ It's a lot more murky in Virginia, because a lot of VDOT's construction budget comes from the sales tax...a portion of the state's sales tax is dedicated to VDOT.  About 1/3 of the state's sales tax revenue is collected in NovA (defined by me as everything north/east of Loudoun-Fauquier-Stafford inclusive).  Fairfax County alone generates 14% of the state's sales tax revenue.


Dirt Roads

Quote from: froggie on August 02, 2022, 03:12:06 PM
^ It's a lot more murky in Virginia, because a lot of VDOT's construction budget comes from the sales tax...a portion of the state's sales tax is dedicated to VDOT.  About 1/3 of the state's sales tax revenue is collected in NovA (defined by me as everything north/east of Loudoun-Fauquier-Stafford inclusive).  Fairfax County alone generates 14% of the state's sales tax revenue.

I'm surprised it's not more.  All of NOVA is paying 6% sales tax, as compared to 5.3% for most of ROVA.  (For the record, all of the Tidewater and Hampton Roads also pays 6%).  Fairfax County has 13.3% of the Commonwealth's population, which is pretty close to the 14% sales tax apportion.  NOVA gets a step further, with 29.5% of the Commonwealth's population.  When I lived in NOVA, the area had a stronger percentage of the state's buying power because of the higher salaries.  But this appears to have been tempered due to higher housing costs.

froggie

^ From what I could tell of the data, it includes those slightly higher sales tax zones for NovA and Hampton Roads, so one could make a rough correlation between population and sales tax revenue.  If I still had a MATLAB license, I probably would have delved further into the numbers.

Mapmikey

Slide 5 here shows the breakdown (statewide) of the sources of transportation revenue in Virginia - http://www.ctb.virginia.gov/resources/2022/june/pres/5.pdf

VTGoose

Quote from: bluecountry on August 02, 2022, 10:58:12 AM
they want to siphon sparse funding for their own pork that is funded by the relative prosperity of the urban areas. 

[Not sure why I continue to respond to this elitist troll, but here goes]

Pretty sad attitude -- "We got ours, too bad for you, go pound sand" instead of looking at how improvements in other parts of the state will help the whole state by making it possible for businesses to locate in Southside and Southwest, bringing more jobs with better salaries -- and ultimately more tax revenue from the development and increased employment.
"Get in the fast lane, grandma!  The bingo game is ready to roll!"

hbelkins

My point about the gas taxes was that you have a lot of people in rural southwestern Virginia that have long drives to get to their jobs, go to the store, seek medical care, etc. They have no or few public transit options so they have to burn their own gas to get anywhere they need to go. You probably have people commuting to jobs in Kingsport, Bristol, Christiansburg/Blacksburg, etc., and using a lot of gas just for necessary trips. Why should the gas taxes those people pay go to relieve congestion in NOVA when they need roads to use to access basic needs?


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

Bitmapped

Quote from: hbelkins on August 03, 2022, 02:01:47 PM
My point about the gas taxes was that you have a lot of people in rural southwestern Virginia that have long drives to get to their jobs, go to the store, seek medical care, etc. They have no or few public transit options so they have to burn their own gas to get anywhere they need to go. You probably have people commuting to jobs in Kingsport, Bristol, Christiansburg/Blacksburg, etc., and using a lot of gas just for necessary trips. Why should the gas taxes those people pay go to relieve congestion in NOVA when they need roads to use to access basic needs?

The construction and maintenance of roads in SW VA is undoubtedly being massively subsidized by those living in more populous and heavily traveled portions of the state.

Dirt Roads

Quote from: hbelkins on August 03, 2022, 02:01:47 PM
My point about the gas taxes was that you have a lot of people in rural southwestern Virginia that have long drives to get to their jobs, go to the store, seek medical care, etc. They have no or few public transit options so they have to burn their own gas to get anywhere they need to go. You probably have people commuting to jobs in Kingsport, Bristol, Christiansburg/Blacksburg, etc., and using a lot of gas just for necessary trips. Why should the gas taxes those people pay go to relieve congestion in NOVA when they need roads to use to access basic needs?

Interesting point.  This also happens a lot in Northern Virginia; so much so that faraway places such as Frederick County (and Winchester), Rappahannock County (and Luray), and Madison County are now considered part of the Washington DC metropolitan statistical area.  I've never known anyone commuting from Madison County, but I knew a bunch of folks living in Rappahannock County that commuted all the way to Bethesda, Maryland.  But NOVA is so big that many folks from the eastern mountains of West Virginia come to work construction jobs and live in the extended stay motels for weeks at a time.  That's a lot of gas money.

froggie

I looked for, but could not find, a breakdown of gas tax revenue by county.  Could find it for sales and income taxes, but not gas tax.

1995hoo

I knew someone who commuted to DC from Charlottesville for about a month maybe 18 years ago. She had graduated from UVA Law and was starting a job in DC, but her child still had to finish the school year in Charlottesville and so she sucked it up and commuted until school ended, at which time they moved. I can't even begin to imagine how exhausting that would be.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

AlexandriaVA

Quote from: 1995hoo on August 04, 2022, 07:39:17 AM
I knew someone who commuted to DC from Charlottesville for about a month maybe 18 years ago. She had graduated from UVA Law and was starting a job in DC, but her child still had to finish the school year in Charlottesville and so she sucked it up and commuted until school ended, at which time they moved. I can't even begin to imagine how exhausting that would be.

There's a bit of irony in there, as the two cities are apparently close enough for that to even be an option. By comparison, had she been offered a job in Chicago, NY, SF, instead, such arrangements wouldn't even be feasible.

I wonder she would have considered Amtrak, if it was reliable and early enough for longer-distance commuters. I always felt that early/mid-morning arrivals in DC and C'Ville respectively would draw decent ridership.

1995hoo

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on August 04, 2022, 10:56:26 AM
....

I wonder she would have considered Amtrak, if it was reliable and early enough for longer-distance commuters. I always felt that early/mid-morning arrivals in DC and C'Ville respectively would draw decent ridership.

I don't know; I never asked.

I do remember at one point maybe ten years ago I had the option of exploring a particular job opportunity in Richmond and I looked into whether it would be possible to commute by train while continuing to live in Fairfax County (among other reasons: my wife had a good job I was not about to ask her to give up). I recall that at the time there were basically no viable southbound train options in the morning. I have no idea what the Amtrak options to/from Charlottesville are, but I know that nowadays the Commonwealth has been working with Amtrak to expand service, so I assume there was less service back then. Unlike the Northeast Corridor, where commuting by Amtrak is quite possible (if not always 100% ideal), commuting via Amtrak in Virginia didn't seem to make much sense. The travel times were a lot longer than you might expect–the current train service from Union Station to Roanoke takes something like five and a half hours, for example. (I once made it to Roanoke from Fairfax County in just over three hours by car. It's about 220 miles from where I lived at the time, so that's not crazy.)
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

AlexandriaVA

Beyond C'Ville gets a bit lengthy, but to/from C'Ville itself seems like it should be competitive, particularly if the run time could come down to about 2 hours.

That's something that needs to be considered when they build schedules - what do the departure/arrival times actually allow for? (i.e. day trippers and business travelers)

froggie

18 years ago would have been before the push by Virginia and DRPT to expand Amtrak service.  At the time, only the Crescent and Cardinal would have gone between C'ville and DC.  While there's a couple of NE Regional trains now that extend down to/beyond C'ville, the times still don't lend themselves well to daily commuting.

VTGoose

Quote from: froggie on August 04, 2022, 02:14:06 PM
18 years ago would have been before the push by Virginia and DRPT to expand Amtrak service.  At the time, only the Crescent and Cardinal would have gone between C'ville and DC.  While there's a couple of NE Regional trains now that extend down to/beyond C'ville, the times still don't lend themselves well to daily commuting.

A second train just started serving Roanoke (and Blacksburg via the Smartway Bus connection). The original still leaves Roanoke at 6:30 a.m. and takes 5 hours to reach Washington. The new train arrives from Washington at 1:00 p.m. after an 8:00 a.m. departure, then leaves Roanoke at 4:30 p.m. Ridership on both trains is good with people opting for a little longer trip as a way to avoid I-81, I-66, and DC traffic. The trips are popular with Virginia Tech students; that will increase in a few years when the state figures out the best way to extend the service to the New River Valley. The train could also grow in popularity once the new Virginia Tech Innovation Campus opens in Alexandria on the former Potomac Yards site. The trains have been and will continue to be promoted as a way to reduce traffic on I-81 (which still needs to be six lanes anyway).
"Get in the fast lane, grandma!  The bingo game is ready to roll!"

1995hoo

Quote from: VPIGoose on August 05, 2022, 10:36:53 AM
Quote from: froggie on August 04, 2022, 02:14:06 PM
18 years ago would have been before the push by Virginia and DRPT to expand Amtrak service.  At the time, only the Crescent and Cardinal would have gone between C'ville and DC.  While there's a couple of NE Regional trains now that extend down to/beyond C'ville, the times still don't lend themselves well to daily commuting.

A second train just started serving Roanoke (and Blacksburg via the Smartway Bus connection). The original still leaves Roanoke at 6:30 a.m. and takes 5 hours to reach Washington. The new train arrives from Washington at 1:00 p.m. after an 8:00 a.m. departure, then leaves Roanoke at 4:30 p.m. Ridership on both trains is good with people opting for a little longer trip as a way to avoid I-81, I-66, and DC traffic. The trips are popular with Virginia Tech students; that will increase in a few years when the state figures out the best way to extend the service to the New River Valley. The train could also grow in popularity once the new Virginia Tech Innovation Campus opens in Alexandria on the former Potomac Yards site. The trains have been and will continue to be promoted as a way to reduce traffic on I-81 (which still needs to be six lanes anyway).


Cue a certain other forum member complaining that the trains must immediately be rerouted to increase service along the I-95 corridor....

:bigass:
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

LM117

Quote from: 1995hoo on August 05, 2022, 11:33:50 AM
Quote from: VPIGoose on August 05, 2022, 10:36:53 AM
Quote from: froggie on August 04, 2022, 02:14:06 PM
18 years ago would have been before the push by Virginia and DRPT to expand Amtrak service.  At the time, only the Crescent and Cardinal would have gone between C'ville and DC.  While there's a couple of NE Regional trains now that extend down to/beyond C'ville, the times still don't lend themselves well to daily commuting.

A second train just started serving Roanoke (and Blacksburg via the Smartway Bus connection). The original still leaves Roanoke at 6:30 a.m. and takes 5 hours to reach Washington. The new train arrives from Washington at 1:00 p.m. after an 8:00 a.m. departure, then leaves Roanoke at 4:30 p.m. Ridership on both trains is good with people opting for a little longer trip as a way to avoid I-81, I-66, and DC traffic. The trips are popular with Virginia Tech students; that will increase in a few years when the state figures out the best way to extend the service to the New River Valley. The train could also grow in popularity once the new Virginia Tech Innovation Campus opens in Alexandria on the former Potomac Yards site. The trains have been and will continue to be promoted as a way to reduce traffic on I-81 (which still needs to be six lanes anyway).


Cue a certain other forum member complaining that the trains must immediately be rerouted to increase service along the I-95 corridor....

:bigass:

Fuck it, just throw the entire state budget at I-95. Go big or go home. :coffee:
“I don’t know whether to wind my ass or scratch my watch!” - Jim Cornette

davewiecking


1995hoo

Thanks for posting that. I missed that yesterday morning. Looks like the barrels are now off to one side:

https://twitter.com/lucifersmith420/status/1555635291838418944
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

bluecountry

Quote from: VTGoose on August 03, 2022, 10:56:48 AM
Quote from: bluecountry on August 02, 2022, 10:58:12 AM
they want to siphon sparse funding for their own pork that is funded by the relative prosperity of the urban areas. 

[Not sure why I continue to respond to this elitist troll, but here goes]

Pretty sad attitude -- "We got ours, too bad for you, go pound sand" instead of looking at how improvements in other parts of the state will help the whole state by making it possible for businesses to locate in Southside and Southwest, bringing more jobs with better salaries -- and ultimately more tax revenue from the development and increased employment.
Pretty selfish of you to think limited transportation funds should be used to 'attempt' to spur the economy of SW VA.
You already had that with ARC, and it didn't work.
It's naive and ignorant to think you are a freeway away from attracting good paying jobs in a region that continues to endorse extractive industries.

But mostly, you are wrong as transportation funds need to spent where transportation needs are greatest, and that is the I-95 corridor.
They are not to spent as pork handouts to extractive coal loving regions.

My tax dollars should go to fixing I-95 congestion, and safety, not to helping another Dollar General pop up by Taylor Mountain.

hbelkins

Quote from: bluecountry on August 07, 2022, 02:39:38 PM
Quote from: VTGoose on August 03, 2022, 10:56:48 AM
Quote from: bluecountry on August 02, 2022, 10:58:12 AM
they want to siphon sparse funding for their own pork that is funded by the relative prosperity of the urban areas. 

[Not sure why I continue to respond to this elitist troll, but here goes]

Pretty sad attitude -- "We got ours, too bad for you, go pound sand" instead of looking at how improvements in other parts of the state will help the whole state by making it possible for businesses to locate in Southside and Southwest, bringing more jobs with better salaries -- and ultimately more tax revenue from the development and increased employment.
Pretty selfish of you to think limited transportation funds should be used to 'attempt' to spur the economy of SW VA.
You already had that with ARC, and it didn't work.
It's naive and ignorant to think you are a freeway away from attracting good paying jobs in a region that continues to endorse extractive industries.

But mostly, you are wrong as transportation funds need to spent where transportation needs are greatest, and that is the I-95 corridor.
They are not to spent as pork handouts to extractive coal loving regions.

My tax dollars should go to fixing I-95 congestion, and safety, not to helping another Dollar General pop up by Taylor Mountain.

And if you never travel on I-95, you want your tax dollars to be spent on finishing US 460 between Grundy and Breaks, or widening I-81 to handle the heavy truck traffic. Works both ways.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

Dirt Roads

The modern day culture of NOVA is so closely related to Virginia Tech football that I'm surprised that there hasn't been an outcry from the Hokie Nation to push VDOT into a complete upgrade of I-81 from I-66 to Christiansburg.  More than half of that crowd is headed from NOVA to Blacksburg on game day Saturdays, and additional fans from Richmond and beyond add in from I-64 at Staunton.  Amazingly, a huge number of NOVA fans also turnout for our famous Thursday night games, although I doubt that they all try to do this en mass like the Saturday crowds. 

EricJV95

I-95 between Northern Virginia and Richmond was a pure HOT MESS. Recently, I was going Southbound from 495 onto 95 South. Everything was going fine until just past Dale City. And, You guessed it. It was mostly STOP than Go. Especially around the Fredericksburg area. But wait. There's more!! It almost continued towards Richmond. Now, I noticed some new digital Speed Limit signs between Mile 115 and 130 along Northbound 95. Common sense would tell VDOT to install them ALL along 95 in BOTH directions. The WHOLE 177 miles between The MD and NC State Lines. Then everybody will hopefully know what to expect. Get it right, VDOT !!!!! And while they're at it; They need to install them along I-64 between Richmond and Chesapeake / Suffolk. Since they're turning I-64 Between the HRBT and the Bowers Hill-Suffolk end into the NJ Turnpike; Put those digital speed limit signs there, too.

1995hoo

Quote from: Dirt Roads on August 08, 2022, 03:18:06 PM
The modern day culture of NOVA is so closely related to Virginia Tech football ....

That seems like a serious exaggeration. I've lived in Northern Virginia since 1974 and the only football that's ever really been a part of the local "culture" was the great Redskins teams of the first Joe Gibbs era (the 1990s through 1992) when they played in four Super Bowls, won three, and advanced to one other NFC championship game. Those teams were an integral part of the DC area as a whole, though, and were one of the very few things in this area that ever cut across all sorts of social divisions like race or economic status. Despite the Washington Post acting like everyone in the DC area loves the University of Maryland's football program, I don't think any sort of college football has ever been part of the "culture" here–or, for that matter, really any college sports at all beyond the general universal popularity of the NCAA basketball tournament. Sure, there are plenty of VPI fans and alumni, but to call it part of the "culture" is a major exaggeration.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Dirt Roads

Quote from: Dirt Roads on August 08, 2022, 03:18:06 PM
The modern day culture of NOVA is so closely related to Virginia Tech football ....

Quote from: 1995hoo on August 09, 2022, 11:34:33 AM
That seems like a serious exaggeration. I've lived in Northern Virginia since 1974 and the only football that's ever really been a part of the local "culture" was the great Redskins teams of the first Joe Gibbs era (the 1990s through 1992) when they played in four Super Bowls, won three, and advanced to one other NFC championship game. Those teams were an integral part of the DC area as a whole, though, and were one of the very few things in this area that ever cut across all sorts of social divisions like race or economic status. Despite the Washington Post acting like everyone in the DC area loves the University of Maryland's football program, I don't think any sort of college football has ever been part of the "culture" here–or, for that matter, really any college sports at all beyond the general universal popularity of the NCAA basketball tournament. Sure, there are plenty of VPI fans and alumni, but to call it part of the "culture" is a major exaggeration.

I realize that I have a strong bias on this topic, as even I fell for the "Ooh, NOVA is close enough to Blacksburg for me to get season tickets to watch Michael Vick syndrome" (I had season tickets for two years).  But here's my logic behind NOVA: 

(1) The majority of in-state students at Virginia Tech are from NOVA.  The same should also be true at UVA, but I'm not sure about that.
(2) NOVA is the bigger part of Washington DC high-tech metro area, by far the largest in the United States. 
(3) The three top high-tech alumni bases in the Washington DC are (1) Virginia Tech; (2) Penn State; and (3) Maryland (sometimes Maryland is higher than Penn State)
(4) Since Maryland has not done well in the Big Ten, the Washington DC college football market is currently dominated by Virginia Tech and Penn State.
(5) High-tech careers are very well paid.  I wished that I had gotten one of those jobs, but alas I ended up in high-tech railroading (world's biggest oxymoron at the time).
(6) Starting in the early 1980s, engineering students at Virginia Tech started a bunch of crazy traditions in Lane Stadium such as the drink cup snake (which is not COVID-friendly).
(7) Virginia Tech is consistently ranked in the Top 10 of best travelling fanbases during Bowl Game season.  Probably because the home games involve travel from NOVA and Richmond.

The company that I worked for in NOVA was not representative of that area's high-tech industries, but we still had several folks that regularly travelled to Blacksburg for games (and one fellow that regularly travelled to Clemson).  Most of my friends in NOVA were occasional travellers to Blacksburg on game days.  Back in 1999, it was my impression that more than half of the 65K fans in Lane Stadium were driving from NOVA to Blacksburg every weekend, which still pales in comparison to the traffic on I-40 funnelling into Knoxville from Nashville/Memphis.

Addressing your valid comment about the Washington team formerly known as something else, I grew up in a section Redskins territory in West Virginia and was a huge fan.  After the Joe Gibbs era, RFK Stadium was nearly empty so I thought I would finally be able to get seats for a game.  Couldn't get tickets at any price.  I eventually gave up on the NFL and professional sports in general.  Quite frankly, I've also given up on college sports.  But indeed, I agree that pro sports are big in the DC area.  But unlike New York, that is not at any cost to college sports.  The Penn State fanbase on the Maryland is quite rabid, and I suspect that many of them head up I-270/US-15 towards Happy Valley on game days.

Here's a new thread on this general subject in >>Off Topic>Sports> https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=31979.0



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