I know this subject has been beaten to death with dead cats but instead of talking about which control cities need to be used on specific highways, let's take a different approach for Interstate, US Highway and major State Highway control cities. Let's talk about the worthiness and acceptability of a city as a control within a state and neighboring states. Here's what I mean. If you open up a road atlas to a random state map, there are certainly going to be some cities that stand out more than others largely because of the size in population and/or area. I think a tiered approach could work on a state basis. I try to avoid using suburbs unless they make sense.
So with that being said, here's how I would tier control cities in the Lower 48 States and DC:
Alabama
Tier 1: Birmingham, Huntsville, Montgomery, Mobile
Tier 2: Tuscaloosa, Auburn
Tier 3: Dothan, Decatur, Florence
Tier 4: Gadsden, Anniston, Selma, Talladega, Opp, Greenville, Enterprise, Eufaula, Scottsboro, Ft Payne, Hamilton, Demopolis, Troy, Cullman, Clanton
Outside cities: Pensacola FL, Tallahassee FL, Columbus GA, Atlanta GA, Chattanooga TN, Nashville TN, Memphis TN, Tupelo MS, Jackson MS, Meridian MS, Gulfport/Biloxi MS, New Orleans LA
Arizona
Tier 1: Phoenix, Tucson
Tier 2: Flagstaff, Yuma, Nogales, Tempe, Mesa
Tier 3: Kingman, Prescott, Lake Havasu City, Casa Grande, Scottsdale, Glendale
Tier 4: Page, Show Low, Holbrook, Douglas, Wickenburg, Quartzsite, Payson, Sedona, Globe, Sierra Vista, Surprise, Goodyear, Chandler
Outside cities: Las Cruces NM, Albuquerque NM, El Paso TX, Moab UT, Salt Lake City UT, St George UT, Las Vegas NV, Laughlin NV, Los Angeles CA, San Diego CA
Arkansas
Tier 1: Little Rock, Fayetteville
Tier 2: Ft Smith, Texarkana, Jonesboro
Tier 3: Hot Springs, Conway, North Little Rock, Bentonville, Pine Bluff
Tier 4: Searcy, Blytheville, Mountain Home, Helena-West Helena, West Memphis, Harrison, Mena, El Dorado, Camden, Arkadelphia, Hope, Russellville, Forrest City
Outside cities: Memphis TN, St Louis MO, Springfield MO, Kansas City MO, Tulsa OK, Oklahoma City OK, Dallas TX, Houston TX, Shreveport LA, Monroe LA, Jackson MS, Greenville MS
California
Tier 1: Los Angeles, Sacramento, San Francisco, San Diego, San Jose
Tier 2: Oakland, Anaheim, Fresno, Bakersfield, Palm Springs, Long Beach
Tier 3: Modesto, Riverside, San Bernardino, Stockton, Redding, South lake Tahoe, Napa, Monterey, Santa Barbara, Pasadena, Modesto, Lancaster
Tier 4: Oceanside, Escondido, Barstow, Merced, Chico, Red Bluff, Santa Rosa, Eureka, Yreka, Yuba City, Bishop, Salinas, Ventura, San Luis Obispo, El Centro, Blythe, Santa Monica, Irvine, Temecula, Santa Ana
Outside cities: Tijuana MX, Mexicali MX, Yuma AZ, Phoenix AZ, Flagstaff AZ, Las Vegas NV, Reno, NV, Portland OR, Eugene OR
Colorado
Tier 1: Denver, Colorado Springs
Tier 2: Boulder, Grand Junction, Pueblo, Ft Collins
Tier 3: Aurora, Greeley, Estes Park, Aspen
Tier 4: Durango, Vail, Montrose, Eagle, Steamboat Springs, Ft Morgan, Sterling, Trinidad, La Junta, Lamar, Limon, Burlington, Alamosa, Walsenburg, Rifle
Outside cities: Topeka KS, Dodge City KS, Omaha NE, North Platte NE, Cheyenne WY, Laramie WY, Salt lake City UT, Moab UT, Las Vegas NV, Albuquerque NM, Santa Fe NM
Connecticut
Tier 1: Hartford, Bridgeport
Tier 2: New Haven, Waterbury, Danbury
Tier 3: New London, Norwich, Stamford
Tier 4: Torrington, Willimantic, Storrs, Meriden
Outside cities: New York NY, Newburgh NY, Albany NY, Springfield MA, Worcester MA, Boston MA, Providence RI
Delaware
Tier 1: Dover
Tier 2: Wilmington
Tier 3: Newark
Tier 4: Lewes, Milford, Georgetown, Smyrna
Outside cities: Cape May NJ, Atlantic City NJ, New York NY, Philadelphia PA, Baltimore MD, Annapolis MD, Salisbury MD, Norfolk VA
Florida
Tier 1: Jacksonville, Tallahassee, Miami, Tampa, Orlando
Tier 2: St Petersburg, Ft Lauderdale, Palm Beach, Gainesville, Daytona Beach, Key West
Tier 3: Pensacola, Ft Myers, Ocala, St Augustine, Titusville/Cape Canaveral, Panama City, Lakeland, Sarasota
Tier 4: Melbourne, Homestead, Naples, Port Charlotte, Ft Walton Beach, Key Largo, Port St Lucie, Clewiston, Winter Haven, Perry, Lake City
Outside cities: Savannah GA, Macon GA, Atlanta GA, Mobile AL, Dothan AL
Georgia
Tier 1: Atlanta, Savannah, Augusta,
Tier 2: Columbus, Macon, Athens
Tier 3: Rome, Valdosta, Albany, Dalton, Brunswick
Tier 4: Dublin, LaGrange, Gainesville, Toccoa, Statesboro, Bainbridge, Tifton, Waycross, Cordele, McRae, Hinesville
Outside cities: Jacksonville FL, Miami FL, Tallahassee FL, Tampa FL, Dothan AL, Montgomery AL, Birmingham AL, Chattanooga TN, Nashville TN, Charlotte NC, Columbia SC, Charleston SC, Greenville SC
Idaho
Tier 1: Boise
Tier 2: Pocatello, Idaho Falls, Couer d'Alene
Tier 3: Twin Falls, Lewiston, Nampa
Tier 4: Kellogg, Bonners Ferry, Grangeville, McCall, Burley, Rexburg, Mountain Home, Salmon, Hailey, Soda Springs
Outside cities: Salt Lake City UT, Jackson Hole WY, Butte MT, Missoula MT, Cranbrook BC, Spokane WA, Seattle WA, Portland OR, Reno NV, Las Vegas NV
Illinois
Tier 1: Chicago, Springfield, Rockford, Peoria
Tier 2: Aurora/Naperville, Moline/Rock Island, Joliet, Champaign/Urbana, Bloomington/Normal, Decatur
Tier 3: Elgin, Waukegan, Quincy, Kankakee, Danville, Jacksonville, DeKalb, Carbondale
Tier 4: Effingham, Galesburg, Macomb, Monmouth, La Salle/Peru, Dixon, Freeport, Galena, Lincoln, Rochelle, Mattoon, Mt Vernon, Vandalia, Harrisburg, Marion
Outside cities: Indianapolis IN, Evansville IN, South Bend IN, Detroit MI, Milwaukee WI, Madison WI, Dubuque IA, Des Moines IA, St Louis MO, Paducah KY, Louisville KY, Nashville TN, Memphis TN
Indiana
Tier 1: Indianapolis, Ft Wayne, Evansville
Tier 2: Hammond/Gary, Bloomington, South Bend, Lafayette, Terre Haute
Tier 3: Muncie, Kokomo, New Albany, Vincennes
Tier 4: Elkhart, Anderson, Richmond, Marion, Crawfordsville, Plymouth, Angola, Michigan City, Columbus, Rushville, Greensburg, Seymour, Madison, Washington
Outside cities: Louisville KY, Lexington KY, Owensboro KY, Nashville TN, Memphis TN, Cincinnati OH, Dayton OH, Toledo OH, Columbus OH, Detroit Mi, Lansing MI, Chicago IL, Champaign IL, Peoria IL, St Louis MO
Iowa
Tier 1: Des Moines, Cedar Rapids, Davenport/Bettendorf
Tier 2: Iowa City, Sioux City, Council Bluffs, Waterloo, Dubuque
Tier 3: Ames, Mason City, Marshalltown, Burlington, Keokuk, Ottumwa,
Tier 4: Ft Dodge, Clarinda, Osceola, Atlantic, Dennison, Orange City, Storm Lake, Mt Pleasant, Muscatine, Clinton, Decorah, DeWitt
Outside cities: Chicago IL, Peoria IL, Madison WI, Minneapolis MN, Sioux Falls SD, Omaha NE, Kansas City MO, Columbia MO, St Louis MO
Kansas
Tier 1: Wichita, Topeka, Kansas City
Tier 2: Salina, Manhattan, Lawrence, Overland Park
Tier 3: Hays, Dodge City, Garden City, Liberal, Hutchinson, Olathe, Emporia, Pittsburg, Newton, McPherson
Tier 4:Goodland, Colby, Oakley, Great Bend, Pratt, Ft Scott, Chanute, Independence, Concordia, Ottawa
Outside cities: Denver CO, Pueblo CO, Amarillo TX, Oklahoma City OK, Tulsa OK, Joplin MO, Springfield MO, Kansas City MO, St Louis MO, St Joseph MO, Omaha NE, Lincoln NE, North Platte NE
Kentucky
Tier 1: Louisville, Lexington
Tier 2: Frankfort, Paducah, Owensboro
Tier 3: Bowling Green, Covington, Hopkinsville, Henderson, London, Richmond, Ashland
Tier 4: Elizabethtown, Fulton, Eddyville, Mayfield, Russellville, Glasgow, Somerset, Pikeville, Mt Sterling, Maysville, Hazard, Berea
Outside cities: Nashville TN, Memphis TN, Knoxville TN, Kingsport TN, Roanoke VA, Charleston WV, Cincinnati OH, Columbus OH, Indianapolis IN, Evansville IN, St Louis MO
Louisiana
Tier 1: New Orleans, Baton Rouge, Shreveport
Tier 2: Lafayette, Monroe, Lake Charles
Tier 3: Houma, Alexandria, Slidell, Hammond,
Tier 4: Covington, Morgan City, Tallulah, Mansfield, Winnfield, Opelousas, DeRidder, Natchitoches,
Outside cities: Biloxi/Gulfport MS, Meridian MS, Jackson MS, Vicksburg MS, Little Rock AR, Texarkana AR-TX, Dallas TX, Houston TX
Maine
Tier 1: Portland, Bangor
Tier 2: Augusta, Lewiston/Auburn
Tier 3: Bar Harbor, Houlton, Waterville, Brunswick
Tier 4: Ellsworth, Rockland, Norway, Caribou, Presque Isle, Ft Kent, Millinocket, Belfast, Farmington, Dover-Foxcroft, Calais
Outside cities: Boston MA, Portsmouth NH, Concord NH, Fredericton NB, Quebec City QU, Montreal QU
Maryland
Tier 1: Baltimore
Tier 2: Annapolis, Hagerstown, Frederick, Salisbury, Columbia
Tier 3: Cumberland, Ocean City, Bethesda, Silver Spring, College Park, Rockville, Aberdeen
Tier 4: Hancock, Cambridge, Waldorf, Westminster, Eaton, Lexington Park, Towson
Outside cities: Washington DC, Richmond VA, Norfolk VA, Roanoke VA, Charleston WV, Morgantown WV, Pittsburgh PA, Harrisburg PA, Philadelphia PA, Wilmington DE, Dover DE, New York NY
Massachusetts
Tier 1: Boston, Springfield
Tier 2: Worcester, Lowell, New Bedford, Lawrence
Tier 3: Hyannis, Fitchburg, Plymouth, Salem, Cape Cod, Fall River, Taunton, Foxborough
Tier 4: Greenfield, Pittsfield, Amherst, North Adams, Amesbury, Gloucester
Outside cities: Providence RI, Hartford CT, New York NY, Albany NY, Burlington VT, Concord NH, Portland ME, Montreal QU
Michigan
Tier 1: Detroit, Lansing, Grand Rapids
Tier 2: Flint, Kalamazoo, Ann Arbor, Sault Ste Marie, Benton Harbor/St Joseph, Port Huron, Pontiac, Muskegon
Tier 3: Saginaw, Marquette, Escanaba, Mackinaw City, Traverse City, Holland, Bay City, Jackson, Battle Creek, Mt Pleasant
Tier 4: Menominee, Iron Mountain, Houghton, Ironwood, St Ignace, Grayling, Alpena, Petoskey, Ludington, Marshall, Monroe, Niles, Cadillac
Outside cities: Toledo OH, Indianapolis IN, Ft Wayne IN, Chicago IL, Green Bay WI, Duluth MN, Toronto ON, London ON, Buffalo NY
Minnesota
Tier 1: Minneapolis/St Paul, Duluth, Rochester
Tier 2: St Cloud, Bloomington, Mankato
Tier 3: Albert Lea, Bemidji, Grand Rapids, Alexandria, Willmar, Worthington, Winona, Fergus Falls, Marshall
Tier 4: Thief River Falls, International Falls, Virginia, Detroit Lakes, Owatonna, Fairmont, Austin, Red Wing, Hinckley
Outside cities: Chicago IL, Madison WI, Green Bay WI, Thunder Bay ON, Winnipeg MB, Grand Forks ND, Fargo ND, Sioux Falls, Des Moines IA, Cedar Rapids IA
Mississippi
Tier 1: Jackson
Tier 2: Biloxi/Gulfport, Meridian, Vicksburg, Hattiesburg, Tupelo
Tier 3: Pascagoula, Columbus, Natchez, Starkville, Laurel, Greenville, Oxford, Corinth, Southaven
Tier 4: Grenada, Winona, McComb, Brookhaven, Waynesburg, Batesville, Greenwood, Tunica, Clarksdale, Cleveland, Yazoo City, Holly Springs
Outside cities: New Orleans LA, Baton Rouge LA, Shreveport LA, Little Rock AR, Memphis TN, Nashville TN, Birmingham AL, Mobile AL
Missouri
Tier 1: Kansas City, St Louis
Tier 2: Columbia, Jefferson City, Springfield, Joplin, St Joseph
Tier 3: Cape Girardeau, Independence, Kirksville, Branson, Wentzville, Hannibal, Rolla, Chesterfield, Festus, St Charles
Tier 4: Sikeston, Hayti, Poplar Bluff, Osage Beach, West Plains, Lebanon, Sedalia, Bowling Green, Moberly, Macon, Chillicothe, Nevada, Maryville, Cameron, Harrisonville, Clinton, Rock Port
Outside cities: Chicago IL, Springfield IL, Louisville KY, Memphis TN, Little Rock AR, Fayetteville AR, Oklahoma City OK, Tulsa OK, Wichita KS, Omaha NE, Des Moines IA, Cedar Rapids IA
Montana
Tier 1: Billings
Tier 2: Helena, Great Falls, Missoula
Tier 3: Butte, Bozeman, Kalispell, Livingston, Miles City
Tier 4: Shelby, Dillon, Deer Lodge, Hamilton, Browning, Libby, Lewistown, Havre, Glasgow, Malta, Culbertson, Sidney, Glendive, Broadus
Outside cities: Denver CO, Casper WY, Salt Lake City UT, Pocatello ID, Coeur d'Alene ID, Seattle WA, Cranbrook BC, Calgary AB, Lethbridge AB, Saskatoon SK, Bismarck ND, Williston ND
Nebraska
Tier 1: Omaha, Lincoln
Tier 2: North Platte, Kearney, Scottsbluff, Grand island
Tier 3: Lexington, Hastings, Columbus, Norfolk, Beatrice, O'Neill, Fremont
Tier 4: Ogallala, Sidney, Chadron, Valentine, McCook, Broken Bow, Nebraska City, Fairbury, Falls City
Outside cities: Denver CO, Wichita KS, Topeka KS, Kansas City MO, Des Moines IA, Sioux City IA, Sioux Falls SD, Rapid City SD, Cheyenne WY, Casper WY, Billings MT
Nevada
Tier 1: Las Vegas
Tier 2: Reno, Carson City
Tier 3: Laughlin, Elko, Henderson, Boulder City, Pahrump
Tier 4: Hawthorne, Tonopah, Mesquite, Ely, Fallon, Winnemucca, Battle Mountain, West Wendover, Minden, Lake Tahoe
Outside cities: Los Angeles CA, Sacramento CA, Boise ID, Salt Lake City UT, St George UT, Phoenix AZ
New Hampshire
Tier 1: Concord, Manchester
Tier 2: Nashua, Portsmouth
Tier 3: Hampton, Keene, Laconia, Lebanon, Littleton, Rochester
Tier 4: Claremont, Milford, Dover, Franklin, Berlin, Plymouth
Outside cities: Boston MA, Portland ME, Montreal QU, Burlington VT
New Jersey
Tier 1: Newark
Tier 2: Trenton, Atlantic City, Patterson, Camden
Tier 3: New Brunswick, Vineland, Cape May, Toms River, Princeton, Lakewood, Red Bank, Jersey City
Tier 4: Somerville, Newton, Ft Lee, Pennsville, Bridgeton
Outside cities: New York NY, Albany NY, Allentown PA, Philadelphia PA, Cleveland OH, Baltimore MD, Wilmington DE
New Mexico
Tier 1: Albuquerque, Santa Fe
Tier 2: Las Cruces, Roswell
Tier 3: Lordsburg, Alamogordo, Clovis, Gallup, Farmington, Carlsbad, Hobbs, Tucumcari, Artesia
Tier 4: Deming, Silver City, Truth or Consequences, Socorro, Raton, Las Vegas, Clayton, Springer, Taos, Santa Rosa, Bloomfield, Shiprock
Outside cities: El Paso TX, Lubbock TX, Amarillo TX, Denver CO, Salt Lake City UT, Phoenix AZ, Tucson AZ, Los Angeles CA
New York
Tier 1: New York, Buffalo, Albany, Rochester
Tier 2: Syracuse, Binghamton, Niagara Falls, Schenectady
Tier 3: Utica, Riverhead, Hampton Bays, White Plains, Middletown, Newburgh, Poughkeepsie, Ithaca, Watertown, Elmira, Troy, Jamestown, Oswego, Rome, Kingston, Glens Falls, Saratoga Springs
Tier 4: Oneonta, Cooperstown, Hudson, Lake Placid, Plattsburgh, Massena, Malone, Champlain, Johnstown, Islip, Cortland, Olean, Corning, Dunkirk, Lockport
Outside cities: Newark NJ, Philadelphia PA, Scranton PA, Erie PA, Pittsburgh PA, Cleveland OH, Toronto ON, Ottawa ON, Montreal QU, Boston MA, Hartford CT, New Haven CT
North Carolina
Tier 1: Charlotte, Raleigh, Greensboro, Winston-Salem
Tier 2: Durham, Asheville, Fayetteville, Wilmington, Hickory, Gastonia, Rocky Mount
Tier 3: Waynesville, Hendersonville, Salisbury, Morganton, Kannapolis, Rockingham, Asheboro, Burlington, Chapel Hill, Greenville, Jacksonville, Goldsboro, Wilson
Tier 4: Murphy, Franklin, Statesville, Boone, Mt Airy, Sanford, Lumberton, New Bern, Whiteville, Elizabeth City, Roanoke Rapids, Henderson, Kill Devil Hills, Williamston, Morehead City
Outside cities: Richmond VA, Roanoke VA, Norfolk VA, Knoxville TN, Chattanooga TN, Atlanta GA, Greenville SC, Columbia SC, Charleston SC
North Dakota
Tier 1: Fargo, Bismarck
Tier 2: Grand Forks, Minot, Williston
Tier 3: Dickinson, Jamestown, Devils Lake, Mandan
Tier 4: Bowman, Beulah, Valley City, Pembina, Rugby, Grafton
Outside cities: Winnipeg MB, Saskatoon SK, Billings MT, Rapid City SD, Sioux falls SD, Minneapolis MN
Ohio
Tier 1: Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati
Tier 2: Toledo, Dayton, Youngstown, Akron
Tier 3: Lima, Sandusky, Canton/Massillon, Troy, Findlay, Springfield, Warren, Mansfield, Steubenville, Elyria, Mentor, Newark, Zanesville, Portsmouth, Middletown, Lancaster
Tier 4: Bowling Green, Van Wert, Defiance, Upper Sandusky, Marion, Delaware, Bellefontaine, Marysville, Wooster, New Philadelphia, Salem, Ashtabula, Cambridge, Xenia, Chillicothe, Hillsboro, Ironton, Athens, Jackson, Marietta
Outside cities: New York NY, Buffalo NY, Pittsburgh PA, Erie PA, Charleston WV, Wheeling WV, Huntington WV, Lexington KY, Louisville KY, Indianapolis IN, Ft Wayne IN, Chicago IL, Detroit MI
Oklahoma
Tier 1: Oklahoma City, Tulsa
Tier 2: Norman, Lawton, Muskogee, Edmond
Tier 3: Enid, Stillwater, Ponca City, Bartlesville, McAlester, Ardmore, Shawnee, Guthrie
Tier 4: Boise City, Elk City, Sayre, Altus, Clinton, Weatherford, Woodward, Hugo, Chickasha, Ada, Durant, Sallisaw, Vinita, Poteau, Miami, Idabel
Outside cities: Amarillo TX, Wichita Falls TX, Dallas TX, Little Rock AR, St Louis MO, Kansas City MO, Wichita KS
Oregon
Tier 1: Portland
Tier 2: Eugene, Salem, Bend, Klamath Falls
Tier 3: Corvallis, Medford, Redmond, Coos Bay, Brookings, The Dalles, Pendleton
Tier 4: Grants Pass, Roseburg, Astoria, Florence, Lincoln City, Newport, Madras, Hood River, Lakeview, Ontario, Baker City, LaGrande, Hermiston, Burns
Outside cities: Sacramento CA, Reno NV, Boise ID, Spokane WA, Seattle WA
Pennsylvania
Tier 1: Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Allentown
Tier 2: Erie, Harrisburg, Scranton/Wilkes-Barre, State College, Reading
Tier 3: Williamsport, Altoona, Washington PA, Uniontown, Greensburg, Beaver Falls, Johnstown, Gettysburg, York, Hazleton, Stroudsburg, Lancaster, Hershey
Tier 4: Sharon, Franklin, Meadville, Warren, DuBois, Clarion, Clearfield, Indiana, Bedford, Breezewood, Chambersburg, Milton, Pottstown, Lewistown, Chester, Norristown
Outside cities: Cleveland OH, Columbus OH, Akron OH, Wheeling WV, Morgantown WV, Washington DC, Baltimore MD, Roanoke VA, Wilmington DE, Atlantic City NJ, Trenton NJ, Newark NJ, New York NY, Binghamton NY, Buffalo NY, Hartford CT
Rhode Island
Tier 1: Providence
Tier 2: Jamestown
Tier 3: Woonsocket, Warwick
Tier 4:Westerly, Kingston, Bristol
Outside cities: Boston MA, Fall River MA, Worcester MA, Hartford CT, New York NY
South Carolina
Tier 1: Columbia, Charleston
Tier 2: Greenville, Spartanburg, Myrtle Beach, Hilton Head Island
Tier 3: Florence, Rock Hill, Aiken, Sumter, Anderson, Orangeburg, Summerville
Tier 4: Clemson, Chester, Newberry, Clinton, Greenwood, Barnwell, Walterboro, Georgetown, Bennettsville, Lancaster
Outside cities: Savannah GA, Augusta GA, Atlanta GA, Asheville NC, Charlotte NC, Fayetteville NC
South Dakota
Tier 1: Sioux Falls, Rapid City
Tier 2: Pierre, Aberdeen
Tier 3: Sturgis, Deadwood, Mitchell, Yankton, Vermillion, Huron, Watertown, Brookings
Tier 4: Custer City, Hot Springs, Mobridge, Belle Fourche, Redfield, Sisseton, Winner
Outside cities: Minneapolis MN, Sioux City IA, Omaha NE, Gillette WY, Billings MT, Bismarck ND, Fargo ND
Tennessee
Tier 1: Nashville, Memphis, Knoxville, Chattanooga
Tier 2: Clarksville, Kingsport, Johnson City, Bristol
Tier 3: Jackson, Franklin, Murfreesboro, Columbia, Hendersonville, Morristown, Cleveland, Oak Ridge, Sevierville, Elizabethton
Tier 4: Dyersburg, Union City, Covington, Savannah, Pulaski, Dickson, Fayetteville, Springfield, Lebanon, Cookeville, Manchester, Tullahoma, Winchester, Crossville, Dayton, LaFollette, Newport, Greenville
Outside cities: Little Rock AR, St Louis MO, Indianapolis IN, Louisville KY, Lexington KY, Roanoke VA, Asheville NC, Atlanta GA, Birmingham AL, Huntsville AL, Jackson MS
Texas
Tier 1: Houston, Dallas/Ft Worth, San Antonio, Austin, El Paso
Tier 2: Lubbock, Amarillo, Corpus Christi, Laredo, Midland/Odessa, McAllen/Pharr
Tier 3: Waco, Wichita Falls, Denton, Killeen, Beaumont, Abilene, Galveston, Tyler, Bryan/College Station, Brownsville, Harlingen, Victoria, San Angelo, Sherman, Paris, Texarkana, Cleburne, Greenville, Huntsville, Longview, Marshall, Lufkin, Nacogdoches, Weslaco, New Braunfels, San Marcos
Tier 4: Port Arthur, Kingsville, Lake Jackson, Plainview, Canyon, Dalhart, Dumas, Perryton, Pampa, Childress, Ft Stockton, Big Spring, Lamesa, Brownfield, Snyder, Sweetwater, Muleshoe, Carthage, Pecos, Presidio, Alpine, Del Rio, Eagle Pass, Uvalde, Bowie, Decatur, Gainesville, Vernon, Mineral Wells, Weatherford, Brownwood, Brady, Lampasas, Georgetown, Hillsboro, Conroe, Cleveland, Mt Pleasant, Sulphur Springs, Alice, Rio Grande City, Seguin, Columbus, McKinney
Outside cities: New Orleans LA, Shreveport LA, Little Rock AR, Tulsa OK, Oklahoma City OK, Denver CO, Albuquerque NM, Tucson AZ, Phoenix AZ, Monterrey MX
Utah
Tier 1: Salt Lake City
Tier 2: Provo, Ogden, St George
Tier 3: Logan, Brigham City, Cedar City, Moab, Nephi, Park City
Tier 4: Tremonton, Beaver, Richfield, Green River, Fillmore, Kanab, Price, Blanding, Vernal, Duchesne
Outside cities: Phoenix AZ, Las Vegas NV, Reno NV, Portland OR, Boise ID, Pocatello ID, Cheyenne WY, Denver CO, Albuquerque NM
Vermont
Tier 1: Burlington
Tier 2: Montpelier/Barre
Tier 3: Rutland, Brattleboro, St Johnsbury, St Albans
Tier 4: White River Jct, Bennington, Middlebury, Newport
Outside cities: Montreal QU, Quebec City QU, Concord NH, Boston MA, Springfield MA, Albany NY
Virginia
Tier 1: Richmond, Virginia Beach/Norfolk/Newport News (Hampton Roads), Roanoke, Arlington
Tier 2: Lynchburg, Charlottesville, Petersburg, Williamsburg, Blacksburg
Tier 3: Fredericksburg, Danville, Martinsville, Bristol, Harrisonburg, Suffolk, Winchester, Front Royal, Leesburg
Tier 4: Lexington, Covington, Bluefield, Big Stone Gap, Richlands, Wytheville, Pulaski, Galax, Staunton, South Boston, Exmore, Farmville, Emporia, South Hill, Warsaw, Culpeper, Sterling
Outside cities: Washington DC, Baltimore MD, Annapolis MD, Philadelphia PA, Harrisburg PA, Dover DE, Charleston WV, Knoxville TN, Winston-Salem NC, Charlotte NC, Raleigh NC
Washington
Tier 1: Seattle, Spokane
Tier 2: Tacoma, Olympia, Richland/Kennewick, Everett
Tier 3: Bellingham, Longview, Vancouver WA, Yakima, Bremerton, Bellevue, Mt Vernon, Walla Walla, Pullman, Wenatchee
Tier 4: Blaine, Aberdeen, Port Angeles, Moses Lake, Sunnyside, Kettle Falls, Grand Coulee, Ritzville, Clarkston, Othello, Ellensburg, Omak
Outside cities: Portland OR, Boise ID, Missoula MT, Vancouver BC
Washington DC
Outside cities: Richmond VA, Arlington VA, Front Royal VA, Annapolis MD, Baltimore MD, Frederick MD, New York NY
West Virginia
Tier 1: Charleston
Tier 2: Huntington, Wheeling, Morgantown
Tier 3: Beckley, Parkersburg, Clarksburg, Weirton, Fairmont, Martinsburg
Tier 4: Chester, Harpers Ferry, Weston, Charles Town, Keyser, Elkins, Bluefield, Summersville, Welch, Williamson, Madison, Lewisburg, Ripley
Outside cities: Lexington KY, Cincinnati OH, Columbus OH, Cleveland OH, Pittsburgh PA, Harrisburg PA, Baltimore MD, Washington DC, Richmond VA, Roanoke VA, Charlotte NC
Wisconsin
Tier 1: Milwaukee, Madison, Green Bay
Tier 2: Janesville/Beloit, Appleton, Oshkosh, Racine/Kenosha, Eau Claire, La Crosse, Waukesha
Tier 3: Wausau, Stevens Point, Wisconsin Dells, Fond du Lac, Beaver Dam, Sheboygan, Manitowoc, Superior
Tier 4: Portage, Tomah, Lake Geneva, Hudson, Menomonie, Marinette, Rhinelander, Sturgeon Bay, Shawano, Prairie du Chien, Dodgeville, Platteville, Rice Lake, Ashland, Hurley, Richland Center, Monroe, Watertown, Whitewater
Outside cities: Chicago IL, Rockford IL, Dubuque IA, Cedar Rapids IA, St Paul MN, Duluth MN, Marquette MI
Wyoming
Tier 1: Cheyenne, Casper
Tier 2: Laramie, Gillette
Tier 3: Rock Springs, Evanston, Sheridan, Green River
Tier 4: Cody, Buffalo, Riverton, Rawlins, Jackson, Kemmerer, Thermopolis, Douglas, Newcastle, Torrington, Wheatland, Worland
Outside cities: Denver CO, Omaha NE, Rapid City SD, Billings MT, Boise ID, Salt Lake City UT
Comments welcomed.
I think Waukesha is too close to Milwaukee to be its own control city.
Quote from: Big John on November 11, 2023, 07:25:00 PM
I think Waukesha is too close to Milwaukee to be its own control city.
Fair point. But it is a major enough suburb that it could be a tier 2 or 3.
In Oklahoma, Lawton should be on tier 1 with OKC and Tulsa. There's no situation in which skipping over Lawton makes sense if a road is headed there, unless OKC or Tulsa is ahead of it.
In Nevada, Reno and Carson need to be on tier 1. They function quite a bit like their own state—the same north/south divide that California has extends across the border into Nevada. The Nevada divide is probably even more severe because there is more or less nothing but the "sagebrush ocean" between Northern Nevada and Southern Nevada; there's nothing like the Central Valley on the border between the two.
Hobsini2,
You have done a wonderful job organizing cities within the states.
I am curious as to how you envision utilizing the different tiers. Is one set of tiers acceptable for 2dis, and a different set of tiers acceptable for 3dis or US routes or state routes?
Are we limiting the discussion to freeways or to all types of roads?
Are we suggesting that if a road leads to both a Tier 1 city and a Tier 3 city, that the Tier 1 city would take precedence in some way?
Santa Ana and Pomona are signed as control within California. Do they qualify as at least Tier 4 cities?
The only tier I need includes the classics:
- other Desert Cities
- Thru Traffic
- Beach Cities
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 11, 2023, 08:46:55 PM
The only tier I need includes the classics:
- other Desert Cities
- Thru Traffic
- Beach Cities
- All Maine Points
- End of Route
I think Gainesville FL should be considered on at least Tier 4, maybe even Tier 3. It's comparable in size to Ocala, and well-known throughout the state due to the university.
In Indiana, I understand the significance of Hammond and Gary on their own, but I feel like they're closer to suburbs in this context. I can't think of a scenario where they would be used instead of Chicago
Also in Indiana, the out-of-state list should include something in western Kentucky to capture the southwest corner of the state, now that there's an Interstate that goes in that direction. Paducah or Henderson would work.
Davenport, IA is significant enough on its own that it doesn't need the "/Bettendorf" as part of it. But maybe my local bias is showing :sombrero:
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 11, 2023, 09:05:32 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 11, 2023, 08:46:55 PM
The only tier I need includes the classics:
- other Desert Cities
- Thru Traffic
- Beach Cities
- All Maine Points
- End of Route
-[cardinal direction] Suburbs
Although I like how the list from West Virginia looks, to be realistic nothing in the Mountain State is important enough to be ranked in the Tier 1 category.
Tier 1 cities ought to have a metro population of at least 1 million. Cities with metro populations over 250K could get bumped up to Tier 1 if they have any of the following (such as a state capitol, hub airport, large major university, large military base, deepwater port, or a major attraction). Being a railroader, it seems like a major rail terminal ought to qualify, and perhaps any important rail transit facilities.
Tier 2 cities ought to have a metro population of at least 250K. Cities with metro populations over 100K could get bumped up to Tier 2 if they have any of the previous elements or has a major freeway junction (wanted to say Interstate junction, but there are some important non-Interstate freeways that would qualify). Small cities over 50K could get bumped up to Tier 2 if they have two or more of those elements.
- Let's take Charleston (still talking West Virginia), which actually has a junction of three Interstates. There was a time that the MSA dropped below 250K, but being the state capital plus having the Interstate junction would have brought up from Tier 3 to a Tier 2. The Charleston MSA has some additional counties tacked on [intentionally] to bring it back over 250K.
- Next up is Huntington. The Huntington MSA remains over 250K, but it includes cities in two other states (Ashland and Ironton). Only one Interstate here, but it has one of the nations largest inland port which is a consequence of several major rail terminals (primarily coal loading facilities). I would probably vote to bump it up to Tier 2 status, but it is doubtful that this would garner enough support to make it a consensus.
- Due to a geographical quirk, Wheeling has an Interstate bypass. I would count that, but one element isn't enough to reach Tier 2.
- West Virginia University used to qualify as a "large major university", but I think that most folks agree that 35K is the new target. Morgantown is the junction of two Interstates. Enrollment is [famously] down at the state's flagship university, so you would have to reduce the target to 20K to allow Morgantown to get bumped up to Tier 2.
- Let's take Beckley, which is also the junction of two Interstates (plus an ultra-important Appalachian Corridor L). In the past, there was no way to consider bumping it up to Tier 2. But since COVID, the newly-minted New River Gorge National Park has truly become a "major attraction" with over 1.5 million visitors last year. Thus, Beckley now gets bumped into Tier 2.
These rules may seem logical enough, but they would cause some oddities:
- The Lynchburg MSA isn't quite at 250K yet, but Liberty University is the only university in the state of Virginia that makes the cut. Put them in Tier 2, even though they don't have a freeway connection. [Virginia Tech now has enrollments that meet my requirements, but not quite enough on the Blacksburg campus by itself. Radford Arsenal is considered an important military facility, but is not a "large military base"].
- Wilmington, North Carolina almost has a complete Interstate bypass (albeit disconnected at both ends, rendering it "odd"), plus a deepwater port. If it ever gets a major rail terminal (which has been planned for decades), it could get bumped up to Tier 1 status.
So, if we were to use tier 1 for Washington, ONLY Spokane and Seattle would be used and nothing else whatsoever? Am I understanding that correctly? Or is it that those would be used first and then other communities if there's room for them?
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 11, 2023, 07:16:00 PM
Ohio
Tier 1: Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati
Tier 2: Toledo, Dayton, Youngstown, Akron
Tier 3: Lima, Sandusky, Canton/Massillon, Troy, Findlay, Springfield, Warren, Mansfield, Steubenville, Elyria, Mentor, Newark, Zanesville, Portsmouth, Middletown, Lancaster
Tier 4: Bowling Green, Van Wert, Defiance, Upper Sandusky, Marion, Delaware, Bellefontaine, Marysville, Wooster, New Philadelphia, Salem, Ashtabula, Cambridge, Xenia, Chillicothe, Hillsboro, Ironton, Athens, Jackson, Marietta
Outside cities: Pittsburgh PA, Erie PA, Charleston WV, Wheeling WV, Huntington WV, Lexington KY, Louisville KY, Indianapolis IN, Ft Wayne IN, Chicago IL, Detroit MI
You forgot New York City in the "Outside Cities" List :sombrero:. Also I think there's a sign with Buffalo on the bottom line on I-90 EB near the OH-PA border, can't find it though.
Looking at the rest of the list, it looks like the primary interstate controls are mainly in Tiers 1 and 2 (also one in Tier 4, which is Marietta, and that should be replaced with Charleston WV on signs). Tier 3's are mainly first lines on distance signs (Ohio uses 2-line distance signs rather than the more common 3 lines, with the primary control on the bottom line). I would move both Chillicothe and Athens up to Tier 3 though, they're both sizeable cities for this part of the state, and a major junction point between two expressways (US 23 and 35 in Chillicothe, US 33 and US 50/OH 32 in Athens).
Quote from: pianocello on November 11, 2023, 09:08:29 PM
I think Gainesville FL should be considered on at least Tier 4, maybe even Tier 3. It's comparable in size to Ocala, and well-known throughout the state due to the university.
In Indiana, I understand the significance of Hammond and Gary on their own, but I feel like they're closer to suburbs in this context. I can't think of a scenario where they would be used instead of Chicago
Also in Indiana, the out-of-state list should include something in western Kentucky to capture the southwest corner of the state, now that there's an Interstate that goes in that direction. Paducah or Henderson would work.
Davenport, IA is significant enough on its own that it doesn't need the "/Bettendorf" as part of it. But maybe my local bias is showing :sombrero:
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 11, 2023, 09:05:32 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 11, 2023, 08:46:55 PM
The only tier I need includes the classics:
- other Desert Cities
- Thru Traffic
- Beach Cities
- All Maine Points
- End of Route
-[cardinal direction] Suburbs
I have Gainesville as a Tier 2.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 11, 2023, 08:30:51 PM
In Oklahoma, Lawton should be on tier 1 with OKC and Tulsa. There's no situation in which skipping over Lawton makes sense if a road is headed there, unless OKC or Tulsa is ahead of it.
In Nevada, Reno and Carson need to be on tier 1. They function quite a bit like their own state—the same north/south divide that California has extends across the border into Nevada. The Nevada divide is probably even more severe because there is more or less nothing but the "sagebrush ocean" between Northern Nevada and Southern Nevada; there's nothing like the Central Valley on the border between the two.
You're right about Reno. It qualifies for Tier 1 status. But I think Carson is Tier 2 because it is not as big a draw. As for Lawton, I generally leave Tier 1 for major cities. That's why I had it at Tier 2 status but if you want it at Tier 1, I got no big issues.
Quote from: mrsman on November 11, 2023, 08:41:06 PM
Hobsini2,
You have done a wonderful job organizing cities within the states.
I am curious as to how you envision utilizing the different tiers. Is one set of tiers acceptable for 2dis, and a different set of tiers acceptable for 3dis or US routes or state routes?
Are we limiting the discussion to freeways or to all types of roads?
Are we suggesting that if a road leads to both a Tier 1 city and a Tier 3 city, that the Tier 1 city would take precedence in some way?
Santa Ana and Pomona are signed as control within California. Do they qualify as at least Tier 4 cities?
This is not limited to freeways. This is for corridors connecting the cities that are tiered. For instance, take US 380. US 380 starts in Greenville TX (Tier 3), passes by Denton, Decatur, Brownfield, Roswell before ending just south of Socorro NM. So those cities would be used as the primary control along with whatever the next town or junction on the mileage signs. Now that I look at it, I should include McKinney as a Tier 4.
Tier 1 is always acceptable for all routes. Tier 2 is on a case by case situation for 2dis. For instance, in Texas, Lubbock and Amarillo are certainly good for I-27 primary controls. But neither would be in the same league as the Tier 1 cities by proportion.
For Santa Ana I substituted Anaheim and Irvine. But yes it could be a Tier 4.
Quote from: pianocello on November 11, 2023, 09:08:29 PM
I think Gainesville FL should be considered on at least Tier 4, maybe even Tier 3. It's comparable in size to Ocala, and well-known throughout the state due to the university.
In Indiana, I understand the significance of Hammond and Gary on their own, but I feel like they're closer to suburbs in this context. I can't think of a scenario where they would be used instead of Chicago
Also in Indiana, the out-of-state list should include something in western Kentucky to capture the southwest corner of the state, now that there's an Interstate that goes in that direction. Paducah or Henderson would work.
Davenport, IA is significant enough on its own that it doesn't need the "/Bettendorf" as part of it. But maybe my local bias is showing :sombrero:
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 11, 2023, 09:05:32 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 11, 2023, 08:46:55 PM
The only tier I need includes the classics:
- other Desert Cities
- Thru Traffic
- Beach Cities
- All Maine Points
- End of Route
-[cardinal direction] Suburbs
Hammond and Gary are "suburbs" of Chicago however, they are also there to account for the Lake County cities within the state. That's why I have them as Tier 2.
As for something heading into western KY, if you notice, I used Memphis TN instead. For the outside cities, I wanted to use bigger cities when possible. I did the same thing in Tennessee to go north by using Indianapolis.
I only used Bettendorf because of the Quad Cities. Yes Davenport could stand alone if you want just like Moline on the IL side.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on November 11, 2023, 10:11:52 PM
Although I like how the list from West Virginia looks, to be realistic nothing in the Mountain State is important enough to be ranked in the Tier 1 category.
Tier 1 cities ought to have a metro population of at least 1 million. Cities with metro populations over 250K could get bumped up to Tier 1 if they have any of the following (such as a state capitol, hub airport, large major university, large military base, deepwater port, or a major attraction). Being a railroader, it seems like a major rail terminal ought to qualify, and perhaps any important rail transit facilities.
Tier 2 cities ought to have a metro population of at least 250K. Cities with metro populations over 100K could get bumped up to Tier 2 if they have any of the previous elements or has a major freeway junction (wanted to say Interstate junction, but there are some important non-Interstate freeways that would qualify). Small cities over 50K could get bumped up to Tier 2 if they have two or more of those elements.
- Let's take Charleston (still talking West Virginia), which actually has a junction of three Interstates. There was a time that the MSA dropped below 250K, but being the state capital plus having the Interstate junction would have brought up from Tier 3 to a Tier 2. The Charleston MSA has some additional counties tacked on [intentionally] to bring it back over 250K.
- Next up is Huntington. The Huntington MSA remains over 250K, but it includes cities in two other states (Ashland and Ironton). Only one Interstate here, but it has one of the nations largest inland port which is a consequence of several major rail terminals (primarily coal loading facilities). I would probably vote to bump it up to Tier 2 status, but it is doubtful that this would garner enough support to make it a consensus.
- Due to a geographical quirk, Wheeling has an Interstate bypass. I would count that, but one element isn't enough to reach Tier 2.
- West Virginia University used to qualify as a "large major university", but I think that most folks agree that 35K is the new target. Morgantown is the junction of two Interstates. Enrollment is [famously] down at the state's flagship university, so you would have to reduce the target to 20K to allow Morgantown to get bumped up to Tier 2.
- Let's take Beckley, which is also the junction of two Interstates (plus an ultra-important Appalachian Corridor L). In the past, there was no way to consider bumping it up to Tier 2. But since COVID, the newly-minted New River Gorge National Park has truly become a "major attraction" with over 1.5 million visitors last year. Thus, Beckley now gets bumped into Tier 2.
These rules may seem logical enough, but they would cause some oddities:
- The Lynchburg MSA isn't quite at 250K yet, but Liberty University is the only university in the state of Virginia that makes the cut. Put them in Tier 2, even though they don't have a freeway connection. [Virginia Tech now has enrollments that meet my requirements, but not quite enough on the Blacksburg campus by itself. Radford Arsenal is considered an important military facility, but is not a "large military base"].
- Wilmington, North Carolina almost has a complete Interstate bypass (albeit disconnected at both ends, rendering it "odd"), plus a deepwater port. If it ever gets a major rail terminal (which has been planned for decades), it could get bumped up to Tier 1 status.
I felt that Charleston deserved to be Tier 1 due to it being the largest city and the capital. The tiers were broken down by in state proportion of the population and the importance. This is how every state gets at least one tier one city. But I do like your insight and justifications.
Little Rock, AR needs a "coming soon" (relatively) addition for IL
Quote from: Amaury on November 11, 2023, 10:19:08 PM
So, if we were to use tier 1 for Washington, ONLY Spokane and Seattle would be used and nothing else whatsoever? Am I understanding that correctly? Or is it that those would be used first and then other communities if there's room for them?
So Tier 1 is to be used first but the roadway is not limited to tier 1. So if you did say I-82, EB would be Yakima, Richland/Kennewick, Hermiston and Boise with Boise being used on the mileage signs every so often. So to answer your questions, it's closer to your second thought of how it works. Tacoma, if it was elsewhere in the state away from the Seattle area would be Tier 1. But because it is so close to Seattle, it gets knocked down a peg.
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 12, 2023, 12:39:05 AM
Little Rock, AR needs a "coming soon" (relatively) addition for IL
I did debate on that but did not include it.
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 11, 2023, 11:19:53 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 11, 2023, 07:16:00 PM
Ohio
Tier 1: Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati
Tier 2: Toledo, Dayton, Youngstown, Akron
Tier 3: Lima, Sandusky, Canton/Massillon, Troy, Findlay, Springfield, Warren, Mansfield, Steubenville, Elyria, Mentor, Newark, Zanesville, Portsmouth, Middletown, Lancaster
Tier 4: Bowling Green, Van Wert, Defiance, Upper Sandusky, Marion, Delaware, Bellefontaine, Marysville, Wooster, New Philadelphia, Salem, Ashtabula, Cambridge, Xenia, Chillicothe, Hillsboro, Ironton, Athens, Jackson, Marietta
Outside cities: Pittsburgh PA, Erie PA, Charleston WV, Wheeling WV, Huntington WV, Lexington KY, Louisville KY, Indianapolis IN, Ft Wayne IN, Chicago IL, Detroit MI
You forgot New York City in the "Outside Cities" List :sombrero:. Also I think there's a sign with Buffalo on the bottom line on I-90 EB near the OH-PA border, can't find it though.
Looking at the rest of the list, it looks like the primary interstate controls are mainly in Tiers 1 and 2 (also one in Tier 4, which is Marietta, and that should be replaced with Charleston WV on signs). Tier 3's are mainly first lines on distance signs (Ohio uses 2-line distance signs rather than the more common 3 lines, with the primary control on the bottom line). I would move both Chillicothe and Athens up to Tier 3 though, they're both sizeable cities for this part of the state, and a major junction point between two expressways (US 23 and 35 in Chillicothe, US 33 and US 50/OH 32 in Athens).
You are correct. I forgot New York City certainly. I had Erie to cover that corner but after thinking it over, Buffalo should be used as well. Added them.
As for Chillicothe and Athens moving up to Tier 3, you won't get an argument from me about either of those going up.
I agree with a lot of this, but regarding the idea of designated "outside cities", I think the best option is to simply use the other state's list for whatever tiers are applicable.
I understand that in practice there are control cities that change just because a state line was crossed, due to differing practices between DOTs, but that's not really endorsed as a good practice by the MUTCD or anything, really.
"Little Rock needs a 'coming soon' addition for IL" - This is something I disagree with. Just because I-57 gets extended there, doesn't mean the traffic will actually go that way.
I know I said I don't like the separate "outside cities" list, but for Georgia I'm not seeing why Miami would be on it. And Charlotte only makes sense if Greenville/Spartanburg are skipped on I-85, which I don't think should happen. If anything, Asheville NC should be added (US 23 north, although in Georgia the section concurrent with US 441 is usually just called 441).
For SC add Wilmington NC to the outside city list (US 17 north)
Quote from: ran4sh on November 12, 2023, 01:52:34 AM
"Little Rock needs a 'coming soon' addition for IL" - This is something I disagree with. Just because I-57 gets extended there, doesn't mean the traffic will actually go that way.
With that thought process, the SB Control should be changed to Nashville leading to the 24/57 split
It doesn't have to be posted in Chicagoland (tho I would, but understand your point), but by I-64/Mount Vernon and certainly by I-24/Marion, Little Rock should be the SB Control, if/when I-57 is signed into central Arkansas
IDOT signs I-24/Nashville along I-64 EB before reaching Mt Vernon/I-57. Controlling 57 SB for a city it actually goes to versus one it does not really is not a bridge too far
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 11, 2023, 07:16:00 PM
Massachusetts
Tier 1: Boston, Springfield
Tier 2: Worcester, Lowell, New Bedford, Lawrence
Tier 3: Hyannis, Fitchburg, Plymouth, Salem, Cape Cod, Fall River, Taunton, Foxborough
Tier 4: Greenfield, Pittsfield, Amherst, North Adams, Amesbury, Gloucester
Outside cities: Providence RI, Hartford CT, New York NY, Albany NY, Burlington VT, Concord NH, Portland ME, Montreal QU
Amesbury doesn't deserve control city status of any type.
Hyannis doesn't actually exist. Check a map of Massachusetts's 351 municipalities, and you won't find it.
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 11, 2023, 07:16:00 PM
South Dakota
Tier 1: Sioux Falls, Rapid City
Tier 2: Pierre, Aberdeen
Tier 3: Sturgis, Deadwood, Mitchell, Yankton, Vermillion, Huron, Watertown, Brookings
Tier 4: Custer City, Hot Springs, Mobridge, Belle Fourche, Redfield, Sisseton, Winner
Outside cities: Minneapolis MN, Sioux City IA, Omaha NE, Gillette WY, Billings MT, Bismarck ND, Fargo ND
Missing Spearfish, only town with a state university and in the top 10 in population not on this list (it's fine everyone forgets we exist, not like we're a minor regional shopping and tourist destination or anything like that no).
SD's practice (which I think is similar to a lot of the West) is to add junctions as well, so you have Albert Lea as the control city heading east from Sioux Falls, not Minneapolis. In fact, I don't think Minneapolis is on any signs in SD come to think of it.
Quote from: ran4sh on November 12, 2023, 01:52:34 AM
I understand that in practice there are control cities that change just because a state line was crossed, due to differing practices between DOTs, but that's not really endorsed as a good practice by the MUTCD or anything, really.
See WYDOT changing the control city from Denver to Fort Collins heading south from Cheyenne.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on November 11, 2023, 10:11:52 PM
Although I like how the list from West Virginia looks, to be realistic nothing in the Mountain State is important enough to be ranked in the Tier 1 category.
Tier 1 cities ought to have a metro population of at least 1 million. Cities with metro populations over 250K could get bumped up to Tier 1 if they have any of the following (such as a state capitol, hub airport, large major university, large military base, deepwater port, or a major attraction). Being a railroader, it seems like a major rail terminal ought to qualify, and perhaps any important rail transit facilities.
I mean per that standard signage on I-90 coming west from Chicago would refer to the Twin Cities and... Seattle? There's a lot of nothing out here per Eastern standards.
Quote from: SD Mapman on November 12, 2023, 09:42:30 AM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on November 11, 2023, 10:11:52 PM
Although I like how the list from West Virginia looks, to be realistic nothing in the Mountain State is important enough to be ranked in the Tier 1 category.
Tier 1 cities ought to have a metro population of at least 1 million. Cities with metro populations over 250K could get bumped up to Tier 1 if they have any of the following (such as a state capitol, hub airport, large major university, large military base, deepwater port, or a major attraction). Being a railroader, it seems like a major rail terminal ought to qualify, and perhaps any important rail transit facilities.
I mean per that standard signage on I-90 coming west from Chicago would refer to the Twin Cities and... Seattle? There's a lot of nothing out here per Eastern standards.
Fargo and Bismarck (I-94) and Rochester, Sioux Falls, and Rapid City (I-90) are recognizable, as is Spokane. Billings is large enough but might not be recognizable.
Montana could be a control "city" for I-90 from Spokane and I-94 from North Dakota, which leaves only I-90 west from Rapid City as something without a clear option if only recognizable locations are allowed. (Billings is too unknown for its size, Gillette isn't large enough, Wyoming doesn't apply to most of the state, and Montana will have people confused why they're in Wyoming instead.)
Quote from: ran4sh on November 12, 2023, 01:52:34 AM
I agree with a lot of this, but regarding the idea of designated "outside cities", I think the best option is to simply use the other state's list for whatever tiers are applicable.
I understand that in practice there are control cities that change just because a state line was crossed, due to differing practices between DOTs, but that's not really endorsed as a good practice by the MUTCD or anything, really.
So the idea of all of this was to try to blend both local and regional needs with national needs. Don't look at it as a specific road in the national sense but as a corridor between major cities. To me, if you are in Atlanta, more people would want to know how far and how to get to Charlotte than Greenville/Spartanburg.
Quote from: 1 on November 12, 2023, 08:33:03 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 11, 2023, 07:16:00 PM
Massachusetts
Tier 1: Boston, Springfield
Tier 2: Worcester, Lowell, New Bedford, Lawrence
Tier 3: Hyannis, Fitchburg, Plymouth, Salem, Cape Cod, Fall River, Taunton, Foxborough
Tier 4: Greenfield, Pittsfield, Amherst, North Adams, Amesbury, Gloucester
Outside cities: Providence RI, Hartford CT, New York NY, Albany NY, Burlington VT, Concord NH, Portland ME, Montreal QU
Amesbury doesn't deserve control city status of any type.
Hyannis doesn't actually exist. Check a map of Massachusetts's 351 municipalities, and you won't find it.
Amesbury as a Tier 4 is fine. It's at the junction of 495 and 95. As for Hyannis, I believe more people have heard of that part of Cape Cod than Barnstable.
Quote from: SD Mapman on November 12, 2023, 09:37:44 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 11, 2023, 07:16:00 PM
South Dakota
Tier 1: Sioux Falls, Rapid City
Tier 2: Pierre, Aberdeen
Tier 3: Sturgis, Deadwood, Mitchell, Yankton, Vermillion, Huron, Watertown, Brookings
Tier 4: Custer City, Hot Springs, Mobridge, Belle Fourche, Redfield, Sisseton, Winner
Outside cities: Minneapolis MN, Sioux City IA, Omaha NE, Gillette WY, Billings MT, Bismarck ND, Fargo ND
Missing Spearfish, only town with a state university and in the top 10 in population not on this list (it's fine everyone forgets we exist, not like we're a minor regional shopping and tourist destination or anything like that no).
SD's practice (which I think is similar to a lot of the West) is to add junctions as well, so you have Albert Lea as the control city heading east from Sioux Falls, not Minneapolis. In fact, I don't think Minneapolis is on any signs in SD come to think of it.
Spearfish is close enough to Deadwood and Belle Fourche that I did not use it. You can though.
As I said before, this is not specific to just interstates. US 212 does go to the Minneapolis area as does US 12. And Minneapolis is much more important than Albert Lea and La Crosse (by its size) is too small and too far away to use on I-90 from Sioux Falls.
Quote from: 1 on November 12, 2023, 09:52:34 AM
Quote from: SD Mapman on November 12, 2023, 09:42:30 AM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on November 11, 2023, 10:11:52 PM
Although I like how the list from West Virginia looks, to be realistic nothing in the Mountain State is important enough to be ranked in the Tier 1 category.
Tier 1 cities ought to have a metro population of at least 1 million. Cities with metro populations over 250K could get bumped up to Tier 1 if they have any of the following (such as a state capitol, hub airport, large major university, large military base, deepwater port, or a major attraction). Being a railroader, it seems like a major rail terminal ought to qualify, and perhaps any important rail transit facilities.
I mean per that standard signage on I-90 coming west from Chicago would refer to the Twin Cities and... Seattle? There's a lot of nothing out here per Eastern standards.
Fargo and Bismarck (I-94) and Rochester, Sioux Falls, and Rapid City (I-90) are recognizable, as is Spokane. Billings is large enough but might not be recognizable.
Montana could be a control "city" for I-90 from Spokane and I-94 from North Dakota, which leaves only I-90 west from Rapid City as something without a clear option if only recognizable locations are allowed. (Billings is too unknown for its size, Gillette isn't large enough, Wyoming doesn't apply to most of the state, and Montana will have people confused why they're in Wyoming instead.)
Billings is too unknown???
And you must have missed what I said about how I did the tiers. It is proportionate to population within a specific state and the importance to the state. Billings is by far the largest city in Montana so it certainly is Tier 1. And I'm sure that if you ask people from the Great Plains and the Pacific Northwest, most have heard of Billings.
Quote from: SD Mapman on November 12, 2023, 09:40:05 AM
Quote from: ran4sh on November 12, 2023, 01:52:34 AM
I understand that in practice there are control cities that change just because a state line was crossed, due to differing practices between DOTs, but that's not really endorsed as a good practice by the MUTCD or anything, really.
See WYDOT changing the control city from Denver to Fort Collins heading south from Cheyenne.
Personally, I would have kept it Denver south of Cheyenne and have Ft Collins as a secondary.
Holy moly, does that seem like a lot of work! You deserve some kudos for all this, since I think the overall structure is a good idea, but I can imagine people will quibble about specifics.
I wonder though if the tiers could be defined for the roads they'll be used on. Like, tier 1 is for all routes, tier 2 is for all routes except Interstates, tier 3 is for only two-laned state routes, etc.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on November 12, 2023, 10:58:50 AM
Holy moly, does that seem like a lot of work! You deserve some kudos for all this, since I think the overall structure is a good idea, but I can imagine people will quibble about specifics.
I wonder though if the tiers could be defined for the roads they'll be used on. Like, tier 1 is for all routes, tier 2 is for all routes except Interstates, tier 3 is for only two-laned state routes, etc.
I didn't really think about it as for the specifics but I would say Tier 1 and 2 are for all roads. Obviously a Tier 1 city would be used over Tier 2 on the Interstates if the distance is not far say like 100 miles. Tier 3 for US Routes and major state highways. Tier 4 for all others. Tier 3 can be used as secondary controls on Interstates where needed.
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 11, 2023, 07:16:00 PM
Connecticut
Tier 1: Hartford, Bridgeport
Tier 2: New Haven, Waterbury, Danbury
Tier 3: New London, Norwich, Stamford
Tier 4: Torrington, Willimantic, Storrs, Meriden
Outside cities: New York NY, Newburgh NY, Albany NY, Springfield MA, Worcester MA, Boston MA, Providence RI
Stamford and Storrs do not appear as a control city anywhere in CT (or in the case of Stamford, anywhere in Westchester County). There are a couple of other Tier 4 cities/towns that are used, mostly as end of routes. Norwalk, New Britain, Bristol, and Middletown would be additional Tier 4 cities (Norwalk on US 7, Bristol on CT 72, Middletown on CT 9, and New Britain on both). Then there are a few towns that could get their own Tier 5 (all are end of route controls): Newington and Old Saybrook (CT 9), Wethersfield and Glastonbury (CT 3), Winsted (CT 8), and New Milford (US 7).
Quote from: 1 on November 12, 2023, 08:33:03 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 11, 2023, 07:16:00 PM
Massachusetts
Tier 1: Boston, Springfield
Tier 2: Worcester, Lowell, New Bedford, Lawrence
Tier 3: Hyannis, Fitchburg, Plymouth, Salem, Cape Cod, Fall River, Taunton, Foxborough
Tier 4: Greenfield, Pittsfield, Amherst, North Adams, Amesbury, Gloucester
Outside cities: Providence RI, Hartford CT, New York NY, Albany NY, Burlington VT, Concord NH, Portland ME, Montreal QU
Amesbury doesn't deserve control city status of any type.
Hyannis doesn't actually exist. Check a map of Massachusetts's 351 municipalities, and you won't find it.
Hyannis is a real place, especially for Cape Codders and visitors who need to obtain the goods and services that aren't found in their own communities (and to catch the ferry to the islands). It isn't an official place, but one most people know. Although it is in the Town of Barnstable, people think of the village of Barnstable on MA-6A. In fact, most of the Town is better known for its villages than the town itself.
All due respect to Amesbury, but it isn't a control city, only because of the junction of 95/495.
Burlington and Montreal are too far from the Commonwealth to justify its use here.
Quote from: 1 on November 12, 2023, 08:33:03 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 11, 2023, 07:16:00 PM
Massachusetts
Tier 1: Boston, Springfield
Tier 2: Worcester, Lowell, New Bedford, Lawrence
Tier 3: Hyannis, Fitchburg, Plymouth, Salem, Cape Cod, Fall River, Taunton, Foxborough
Tier 4: Greenfield, Pittsfield, Amherst, North Adams, Amesbury, Gloucester
Outside cities: Providence RI, Hartford CT, New York NY, Albany NY, Burlington VT, Concord NH, Portland ME, Montreal QU
Amesbury doesn't deserve control city status of any type.
Hyannis doesn't actually exist. Check a map of Massachusetts's 351 municipalities, and you won't find it.
Amesbury isn't even the north end of I-495, that's Salisbury. Hyannis does exist, it's just technically a neighborhood of Hyannis.
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on November 12, 2023, 01:24:43 PM
Quote from: 1 on November 12, 2023, 08:33:03 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 11, 2023, 07:16:00 PM
Massachusetts
Tier 1: Boston, Springfield
Tier 2: Worcester, Lowell, New Bedford, Lawrence
Tier 3: Hyannis, Fitchburg, Plymouth, Salem, Cape Cod, Fall River, Taunton, Foxborough
Tier 4: Greenfield, Pittsfield, Amherst, North Adams, Amesbury, Gloucester
Outside cities: Providence RI, Hartford CT, New York NY, Albany NY, Burlington VT, Concord NH, Portland ME, Montreal QU
Amesbury doesn't deserve control city status of any type.
Hyannis doesn't actually exist. Check a map of Massachusetts's 351 municipalities, and you won't find it.
Hyannis is a real place, especially for Cape Codders and visitors who need to obtain the goods and services that aren't found in their own communities (and to catch the ferry to the islands). It isn't an official place, but one most people know. Although it is in the Town of Barnstable, people think of the village of Barnstable on MA-6A. In fact, most of the Town is better known for its villages than the town itself.
All due respect to Amesbury, but it isn't a control city, only because of the junction of 95/495.
Burlington and Montreal are too far from the Commonwealth to justify its use here.
It's the same thing as signing White River Junction in Vermont over the Town of Hartford.
The only use I can see for Montreal is as a secondary control city for I-93 north but only because it would be helpful for long distance drivers to know how to get to Montreal. Even then I'd be skeptical.
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 12, 2023, 12:08:06 AM
It qualifies for Tier 1 status. But I think Carson is Tier 2 because it is not as big a draw.
It's the state capital. If I'm a resident of Las Vegas it's the only place in Northern Nevada I might be
required to visit, assuming I don't have a gaming job that requires me to travel to Reno. Sure, it's not as big as most state capitals, but then Nevada isn't as big as most states, either. (Population-wise, anyway. It's freakin' huge in terms of area.)
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 11, 2023, 07:16:00 PM
California
Tier 1: Los Angeles, Sacramento, San Francisco, San Diego, San Jose
Tier 2: Oakland, Anaheim, Fresno, Bakersfield, Palm Springs, Long Beach
Tier 3: Modesto, Riverside, San Bernardino, Stockton, Redding, South lake Tahoe, Napa, Monterey, Santa Barbara, Pasadena, Modesto, Lancaster
Tier 4: Oceanside, Escondido, Barstow, Merced, Chico, Red Bluff, Santa Rosa, Eureka, Yreka, Yuba City, Bishop, Salinas, Ventura, San Luis Obispo, El Centro, Blythe, Santa Monica, Irvine, Temecula, Santa Ana
Outside cities: Tijuana MX, Mexicali MX, Yuma AZ, Phoenix AZ, Las Vegas NV, Reno, NV, Portland OR, Eugene OR
I think the case can be made to include Stockton, Santa Barbara, and either San Bernardino or Riverside in Tier 2.
Also, are you treating CA-99 as an Interstate or US equivalent? In that case, having Modesto/Merced/Chico/Yuba City on this list makes sense, but I would add Visalia in Tier 3.
Monterey is on CA-1 (but not US-101), so if we're treating it the same way as CA-99, then Santa Cruz should be included in Tier 3.
Quote from: DTComposer on November 12, 2023, 06:54:23 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 11, 2023, 07:16:00 PM
California
Tier 1: Los Angeles, Sacramento, San Francisco, San Diego, San Jose
Tier 2: Oakland, Anaheim, Fresno, Bakersfield, Palm Springs, Long Beach
Tier 3: Modesto, Riverside, San Bernardino, Stockton, Redding, South lake Tahoe, Napa, Monterey, Santa Barbara, Pasadena, Modesto, Lancaster
Tier 4: Oceanside, Escondido, Barstow, Merced, Chico, Red Bluff, Santa Rosa, Eureka, Yreka, Yuba City, Bishop, Salinas, Ventura, San Luis Obispo, El Centro, Blythe, Santa Monica, Irvine, Temecula, Santa Ana
Outside cities: Tijuana MX, Mexicali MX, Yuma AZ, Phoenix AZ, Las Vegas NV, Reno, NV, Portland OR, Eugene OR
I think the case can be made to include Stockton, Santa Barbara, and either San Bernardino or Riverside in Tier 2.
Also, are you treating CA-99 as an Interstate or US equivalent? In that case, having Modesto/Merced/Chico/Yuba City on this list makes sense, but I would add Visalia in Tier 3.
Monterey is on CA-1 (but not US-101), so if we're treating it the same way as CA-99, then Santa Cruz should be included in Tier 3.
On this note - shouldn't Flagstaff, AZ be included an outside city in order to cover I-40?
I will try to say this again. The tiers are not just for the interstates. They are for US Highways and major state highways. Please understand that. I have had to say this like 4 times now.
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on November 12, 2023, 12:50:53 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 11, 2023, 07:16:00 PM
Connecticut
Tier 1: Hartford, Bridgeport
Tier 2: New Haven, Waterbury, Danbury
Tier 3: New London, Norwich, Stamford
Tier 4: Torrington, Willimantic, Storrs, Meriden
Outside cities: New York NY, Newburgh NY, Albany NY, Springfield MA, Worcester MA, Boston MA, Providence RI
Stamford and Storrs do not appear as a control city anywhere in CT (or in the case of Stamford, anywhere in Westchester County). There are a couple of other Tier 4 cities/towns that are used, mostly as end of routes. Norwalk, New Britain, Bristol, and Middletown would be additional Tier 4 cities (Norwalk on US 7, Bristol on CT 72, Middletown on CT 9, and New Britain on both). Then there are a few towns that could get their own Tier 5 (all are end of route controls): Newington and Old Saybrook (CT 9), Wethersfield and Glastonbury (CT 3), Winsted (CT 8), and New Milford (US 7).
If you want to use Greenwich instead of Stamford, go for it. I used Storrs because of the state university.
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on November 12, 2023, 01:24:43 PM
Quote from: 1 on November 12, 2023, 08:33:03 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 11, 2023, 07:16:00 PM
Massachusetts
Tier 1: Boston, Springfield
Tier 2: Worcester, Lowell, New Bedford, Lawrence
Tier 3: Hyannis, Fitchburg, Plymouth, Salem, Cape Cod, Fall River, Taunton, Foxborough
Tier 4: Greenfield, Pittsfield, Amherst, North Adams, Amesbury, Gloucester
Outside cities: Providence RI, Hartford CT, New York NY, Albany NY, Burlington VT, Concord NH, Portland ME, Montreal QU
Amesbury doesn't deserve control city status of any type.
Hyannis doesn't actually exist. Check a map of Massachusetts's 351 municipalities, and you won't find it.
Hyannis is a real place, especially for Cape Codders and visitors who need to obtain the goods and services that aren't found in their own communities (and to catch the ferry to the islands). It isn't an official place, but one most people know. Although it is in the Town of Barnstable, people think of the village of Barnstable on MA-6A. In fact, most of the Town is better known for its villages than the town itself.
All due respect to Amesbury, but it isn't a control city, only because of the junction of 95/495.
Burlington and Montreal are too far from the Commonwealth to justify its use here.
Amesbury looks bigger and is close enough to the terminus of 495 that I used it.
As for Burlington, that is the only city with any size in Vermont. And Montreal is not that far away that it would be inappropriate to use as a control in Massachusetts.
Boston is 319 miles. Springfield is 303 miles. That's closer than Chicago is to Cleveland or Minneapolis.
Quote from: DTComposer on November 12, 2023, 06:54:23 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 11, 2023, 07:16:00 PM
California
Tier 1: Los Angeles, Sacramento, San Francisco, San Diego, San Jose
Tier 2: Oakland, Anaheim, Fresno, Bakersfield, Palm Springs, Long Beach
Tier 3: Modesto, Riverside, San Bernardino, Stockton, Redding, South lake Tahoe, Napa, Monterey, Santa Barbara, Pasadena, Modesto, Lancaster
Tier 4: Oceanside, Escondido, Barstow, Merced, Chico, Red Bluff, Santa Rosa, Eureka, Yreka, Yuba City, Bishop, Salinas, Ventura, San Luis Obispo, El Centro, Blythe, Santa Monica, Irvine, Temecula, Santa Ana
Outside cities: Tijuana MX, Mexicali MX, Yuma AZ, Phoenix AZ, Las Vegas NV, Reno, NV, Portland OR, Eugene OR
I think the case can be made to include Stockton, Santa Barbara, and either San Bernardino or Riverside in Tier 2.
Also, are you treating CA-99 as an Interstate or US equivalent? In that case, having Modesto/Merced/Chico/Yuba City on this list makes sense, but I would add Visalia in Tier 3.
Monterey is on CA-1 (but not US-101), so if we're treating it the same way as CA-99, then Santa Cruz should be included in Tier 3.
The tier list is not a hard line. If you want to elevate Riverside, Stockton and Santa Barbara to Tier 2, go for it. All 3 are possible.
I did add Flagstaff to the outside cities for California.
I'm not sure what needs to be done to be qualified for a tier but I'm assuming these are for Interstate and US highways. Michigan is the only state I'll account for. My first one would be Pontiac I'm guessing this might be for US-24 which runs on the west side of Pontiac, actually Waterford would be better if this is for US-24. Mackinaw City is alright for US-23 and US-31 in the area but not I-75. For outside cities Indianapolis, Duluth, Toronto, London and Buffalo all seem pretty far out of the way to use in Michigan. The ones you picked would work fine though.
Bay City is used once on I-75 where Mackinac Bridge should be used but it's kind of a local exit so it's not a big deal.
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 11, 2023, 07:16:00 PM
Utah
Tier 1: Salt Lake City
Tier 2: Provo, Ogden, St George
Tier 3: Logan, Brigham City, Cedar City, Moab, Nephi, Park City
Tier 4: Tremonton, Beaver, Richfield, Green River, Fillmore, Kanab, Price, Blanding, Vernal, Duchesne
Outside cities: Phoenix AZ, Las Vegas NV, Reno NV, Portland OR, Boise ID, Pocatello ID, Cheyenne WY, Denver CO, Albuquerque NM
My thoughts:
- Move Logan up to tier 2. It's the only metropolitan area not there yet and is home to the second-largest public university in the state (Utah State).
- Heber City isn't anywhere in here. That should be at least tier 4 if not 3. Pretty significant mountain destination and now also bedroom community for the Wasatch Front.
- Bump Price up to tier 3. Big enough for a micropolitan area, home to USU Eastern (previously College of Eastern Utah), and by far the largest city and regional hub for Eastern Utah.
- Drop Nephi down to tier 4. It's smaller than even a lot of the tier 4 cities and not much of a destination in its own right.
- Add Morgan, Delta, and Roosevelt to tier 4.
- Monticello in addition to or instead of Blanding? Monticello is a little smaller but is more regionally significant because it is where the 191/491 junction is.
- Could drop Beaver entirely as it is pretty small and not really a major junction.
- Remove Duchesne entirely - even though it's a decent road junction, 191 doesn't get much use over there and it's far smaller than any other tier 4 city. Roosevelt is 4x bigger.
- Portland is too far, especially because a lot of long distance NW traffic would split off 82 to go to Seattle. Boise covers that direction just fine.
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 12, 2023, 12:29:48 AM
Quote from: pianocello on November 11, 2023, 09:08:29 PM
Also in Indiana, the out-of-state list should include something in western Kentucky to capture the southwest corner of the state, now that there's an Interstate that goes in that direction. Paducah or Henderson would work.
As for something heading into western KY, if you notice, I used Memphis TN instead. For the outside cities, I wanted to use bigger cities when possible. I did the same thing in Tennessee to go north by using Indianapolis.
That's on me and my poor reading comprehension. I do think there's a balance to be made between major cities vs. mid-size closer cities out of state, I guess I would lean towards the latter if I were doing this exercise.
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 12, 2023, 12:03:48 AM
Quote from: pianocello on November 11, 2023, 09:08:29 PM
I think Gainesville FL should be considered on at least Tier 4, maybe even Tier 3. It's comparable in size to Ocala, and well-known throughout the state due to the university.
I have Gainesville as a Tier 2.
To me, this was completely unexpected to the point where I didn't even look for it in the Tier 2 list. Probably goes down to the fact that FDOT doesn't include it as a control city on I-75 at all IRL. Cheers.
Quote from: pianocello on November 11, 2023, 09:08:29 PM
I think Gainesville FL should be considered on at least Tier 4, maybe even Tier 3. It's comparable in size to Ocala, and well-known throughout the state due to the university.
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 12, 2023, 12:03:48 AM
I have Gainesville as a Tier 2.
Quote from: pianocello on November 12, 2023, 10:16:41 PM
To me, this was completely unexpected to the point where I didn't even look for it in the Tier 2 list. Probably goes down to the fact that FDOT doesn't include it as a control city on I-75 at all IRL. Cheers.
My original thought is that the University of Florida bumps up Gainesville from a Tier 3 to a Tier 2. Wrong am I. I can't fathom how (or when) Gainesville got to be over 250K population (Gainesville MSA is now just a hair over 420K). [For the record, the last time I was actually in Gainesville proper was when I went to see Emmitt Smith play. The fans started throwing oranges at their own bench when Galen Hall pulled him out of the game early in the third quarter. He had already racked up 170+ yards against a fairly good Mississippi State defense, IIRC.]
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 12, 2023, 08:49:12 PM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on November 12, 2023, 01:24:43 PM
Quote from: 1 on November 12, 2023, 08:33:03 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 11, 2023, 07:16:00 PM
Massachusetts
Tier 1: Boston, Springfield
Tier 2: Worcester, Lowell, New Bedford, Lawrence
Tier 3: Hyannis, Fitchburg, Plymouth, Salem, Cape Cod, Fall River, Taunton, Foxborough
Tier 4: Greenfield, Pittsfield, Amherst, North Adams, Amesbury, Gloucester
Outside cities: Providence RI, Hartford CT, New York NY, Albany NY, Burlington VT, Concord NH, Portland ME, Montreal QU
Amesbury doesn't deserve control city status of any type.
Hyannis doesn't actually exist. Check a map of Massachusetts's 351 municipalities, and you won't find it.
Hyannis is a real place, especially for Cape Codders and visitors who need to obtain the goods and services that aren't found in their own communities (and to catch the ferry to the islands). It isn't an official place, but one most people know. Although it is in the Town of Barnstable, people think of the village of Barnstable on MA-6A. In fact, most of the Town is better known for its villages than the town itself.
All due respect to Amesbury, but it isn't a control city, only because of the junction of 95/495.
Burlington and Montreal are too far from the Commonwealth to justify its use here.
Amesbury looks bigger and is close enough to the terminus of 495 that I used it.
As for Burlington, that is the only city with any size in Vermont. And Montreal is not that far away that it would be inappropriate to use as a control in Massachusetts.
Boston is 319 miles. Springfield is 303 miles. That's closer than Chicago is to Cleveland or Minneapolis.
I can see Montreal as a secondary control on I-93 north out of Boston since it's helpful to know that you're going towards Montreal (the next "big" city north of Boston).
But Burlington wouldn't make sense in Massachusetts - if only because you pass through Manchester and Concord in NH before you get there.
Maybe WisDOT should use 'Fox Valley' (the colloquial name of the metro area) instead of 'Fond du Lac' as the control for NB I-41 in the Milwaukee, WI area.
Mike
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 12, 2023, 08:34:51 PM
I will try to say this again. The tiers are not just for the interstates. They are for US Highways and major state highways. Please understand that. I have had to say this like 4 times now.
Duly noted, but your opening post says
Quote
let's take a different approach for Interstate and US Highway control cities.
so perhaps that's why there's some confusion about state highways. I, and perhaps others, skipped over replies about states of which I have less knowledge where you may have said state highways were included as well. Consider modifying the opening post?
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 11, 2023, 07:16:00 PM
Colorado
Tier 1: Denver, Colorado Springs
Tier 2: Boulder, Grand Junction, Pueblo, Ft Collins
Tier 3: Aurora, Greeley, Estes Park, Aspen
Tier 4: Durango, Vail, Montrose, Eagle, Steamboat Springs, Ft Morgan, Sterling, Trinidad, La Junta, Lamar, Limon, Burlington, Alamosa, Walsenburg, Rifle
Outside cities: Topeka KS, Dodge City KS, Omaha NE, North Platte NE, Cheyenne WY, Laramie WY, Salt lake City UT, Moab UT, Las Vegas NV, Albuquerque NM, Santa Fe NM
Not too much to quibble with. Tier 1 and 2 are fine. Maybe Greeley could move up to 2. I might add Vail to Tier 3, since I've often wondered if we should have a "mountain" control city for I-70 instead of all the way to Grand Junction. I would remove Eagle from Tier 4 as the only thing there is Vail's airport (not any junctions there either). I would also probably use Hays or Salina instead of Topeka for the outside cities.
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 11, 2023, 07:16:00 PM
Michigan
Tier 1: Detroit, Lansing, Grand Rapids
Tier 2: Flint, Kalamazoo, Ann Arbor, Sault Ste Marie, Benton Harbor/St Joseph, Port Huron, Pontiac, Muskegon
Tier 3: Saginaw, Marquette, Escanaba, Mackinaw City, Traverse City, Holland, Bay City, Jackson, Battle Creek, Mt Pleasant
Tier 4: Menominee, Iron Mountain, Houghton, Ironwood, St Ignace, Grayling, Alpena, Petoskey, Ludington, Marshall, Monroe, Niles, Cadillac
Outside cities: Toledo OH, Indianapolis IN, Ft Wayne IN, Chicago IL, Green Bay WI, Duluth MN, Toronto ON, London ON, Buffalo NY
You need to include some of the Tier 2 cities on the 2di's as Tier 1 instead, or you run out of control cities before you run out of road. For example, Muskegon and Port Huron because I-96 and I-94 don't end in GR and Detroit, respectively. You also need something on I-69 beside Lansing. And obviously, anything on I-75 north of Detroit.
Cadillac has to move up to at least Tier 3, maybe 2. Holland and Jackson should be Tier2. Alpena, Ironwood and Petoskey should be 3.
What about north of Houghton? I know Copper Harbor is little, but the road does end there.
For the outside cities, there's no need for Indianapolis if you have Fort Wayne. South Bend should be included for US-31. Windsor should be there, unless you will allow the generic "Canada". And if you have Windsor and London, or generic Canada, you don't need Toronto. Buffalo is right out.
Great work here! Interesting idea.
On Kansas - I think it's interesting that the smallest of your tier 2 cities (Salina) gets by far the most signage, but it makes sense given the location. OP isn't really signed anywhere at all, but probably should be on 435 and certainly should be on southbound 635 from 70 or so, and on 69 coming off 35. My one disagreement is on St. Louis, I don't think it makes sense to sign it anywhere in Kansas.
Lawrence, of course, should be signed on every inbound milage sign and junction on 70, 24, 40, 59, and every road that feeds into them :bigass:
Quote from: jaehak on November 14, 2023, 11:53:58 AM
Great work here! Interesting idea.
On Kansas - I think it's interesting that the smallest of your tier 2 cities (Salina) gets by far the most signage, but it makes sense given the location. OP isn't really signed anywhere at all, but probably should be on 435 and certainly should be on southbound 635 from 70 or so, and on 69 coming off 35. My one disagreement is on St. Louis, I don't think it makes sense to sign it anywhere in Kansas.
Lawrence, of course, should be signed on every inbound milage sign and junction on 70, 24, 40, 59, and every road that feeds into them :bigass:
No St. Louis on I-670 East? I think that is completely reasonable there.
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 12, 2023, 09:48:57 PM
I'm not sure what needs to be done to be qualified for a tier but I'm assuming these are for Interstate and US highways. Michigan is the only state I'll account for. My first one would be Pontiac I'm guessing this might be for US-24 which runs on the west side of Pontiac, actually Waterford would be better if this is for US-24. Mackinaw City is alright for US-23 and US-31 in the area but not I-75. For outside cities Indianapolis, Duluth, Toronto, London and Buffalo all seem pretty far out of the way to use in Michigan. The ones you picked would work fine though.
Bay City is used once on I-75 where Mackinac Bridge should be used but it's kind of a local exit so it's not a big deal.
I used Pontiac because it is a well known suburb of Detroit over Waterford. I used Mackinaw City because again its a well known place. I tried avoiding the use of bridges but the Mackinaw Br could be an exception. The outside cities are more for areas close to the border. More traffic would be interested in knowing Indianapolis is a certain direction over Ft Wayne for example.
Quote from: US 89 on November 12, 2023, 10:11:48 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 11, 2023, 07:16:00 PM
Utah
Tier 1: Salt Lake City
Tier 2: Provo, Ogden, St George
Tier 3: Logan, Brigham City, Cedar City, Moab, Nephi, Park City
Tier 4: Tremonton, Beaver, Richfield, Green River, Fillmore, Kanab, Price, Blanding, Vernal, Duchesne
Outside cities: Phoenix AZ, Las Vegas NV, Reno NV, Portland OR, Boise ID, Pocatello ID, Cheyenne WY, Denver CO, Albuquerque NM
My thoughts:
- Move Logan up to tier 2. It's the only metropolitan area not there yet and is home to the second-largest public university in the state (Utah State).
- Heber City isn't anywhere in here. That should be at least tier 4 if not 3. Pretty significant mountain destination and now also bedroom community for the Wasatch Front.
- Bump Price up to tier 3. Big enough for a micropolitan area, home to USU Eastern (previously College of Eastern Utah), and by far the largest city and regional hub for Eastern Utah.
- Drop Nephi down to tier 4. It's smaller than even a lot of the tier 4 cities and not much of a destination in its own right.
- Add Morgan, Delta, and Roosevelt to tier 4.
- Monticello in addition to or instead of Blanding? Monticello is a little smaller but is more regionally significant because it is where the 191/491 junction is.
- Could drop Beaver entirely as it is pretty small and not really a major junction.
- Remove Duchesne entirely - even though it's a decent road junction, 191 doesn't get much use over there and it's far smaller than any other tier 4 city. Roosevelt is 4x bigger.
- Portland is too far, especially because a lot of long distance NW traffic would split off 82 to go to Seattle. Boise covers that direction just fine.
I got no problem with Logan being Tier 2.
I used Park City instead of Heber City but you could change that.
I left Roosevelt off because Vernal is where the junction with 191 is. Morgan is not a big enough draw. Delta should be added.
You do make a case for Monticello over Blanding.
Quote from: DTComposer on November 13, 2023, 12:24:57 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 12, 2023, 08:34:51 PM
I will try to say this again. The tiers are not just for the interstates. They are for US Highways and major state highways. Please understand that. I have had to say this like 4 times now.
Duly noted, but your opening post says
Quote
let's take a different approach for Interstate and US Highway control cities.
so perhaps that's why there's some confusion about state highways. I, and perhaps others, skipped over replies about states of which I have less knowledge where you may have said state highways were included as well. Consider modifying the opening post?
Fair enough. No harm, no foul.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on November 14, 2023, 11:56:25 AM
No St. Louis on I-670 East? I think that is completely reasonable there.
670 East isn't signed for anything on the Kansas side now. If it were, "Downtown" would be the way to go.
Quote from: jaehak on November 15, 2023, 10:40:31 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on November 14, 2023, 11:56:25 AM
No St. Louis on I-670 East? I think that is completely reasonable there.
670 East isn't signed for anything on the Kansas side now. If it were, "Downtown" would be the way to go.
But I-70 East at the split also serves Downtown, just the north side of it.
Sort of related, will post it here.
On business trip yesterday, I took US 13 north to Salisbury MD, to take US 50 west. US 13 and 50 form an expressway to the north and east of Salisbury. US 13 north and US 50 west are concurrent for a couple miles until US 13 exits to go north. There was a sign right before the US 13 north exit that said
"Philadelphia
NY/NJ
Use 13 North" (13 was in a US shield, to be clear)
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 14, 2023, 07:21:13 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 12, 2023, 09:48:57 PM
I'm not sure what needs to be done to be qualified for a tier but I'm assuming these are for Interstate and US highways. Michigan is the only state I'll account for. My first one would be Pontiac I'm guessing this might be for US-24 which runs on the west side of Pontiac, actually Waterford would be better if this is for US-24. Mackinaw City is alright for US-23 and US-31 in the area but not I-75. For outside cities Indianapolis, Duluth, Toronto, London and Buffalo all seem pretty far out of the way to use in Michigan. The ones you picked would work fine though.
Bay City is used once on I-75 where Mackinac Bridge should be used but it's kind of a local exit so it's not a big deal.
I used Pontiac because it is a well known suburb of Detroit over Waterford. I used Mackinaw City because again its a well known place. I tried avoiding the use of bridges but the Mackinaw Br could be an exception. The outside cities are more for areas close to the border. More traffic would be interested in knowing Indianapolis is a certain direction over Ft Wayne for example.
Waterford is pretty well known. Mackinac Bridge is much more well known than Mackinaw City. Fort Wayne is the second largest city in Indiana and comes before Indianapolis so I don't see where in Michigan you'd use Indianapolis, not saying you couldn't because I-69 and US-31 would be two that you could do it on, South Bend and Fort Wayne make sense because one is right across the border pretty much and the other one is 50 miles into Indiana.
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 15, 2023, 11:32:04 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 14, 2023, 07:21:13 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 12, 2023, 09:48:57 PM
I'm not sure what needs to be done to be qualified for a tier but I'm assuming these are for Interstate and US highways. Michigan is the only state I'll account for. My first one would be Pontiac I'm guessing this might be for US-24 which runs on the west side of Pontiac, actually Waterford would be better if this is for US-24. Mackinaw City is alright for US-23 and US-31 in the area but not I-75. For outside cities Indianapolis, Duluth, Toronto, London and Buffalo all seem pretty far out of the way to use in Michigan. The ones you picked would work fine though.
Bay City is used once on I-75 where Mackinac Bridge should be used but it's kind of a local exit so it's not a big deal.
I used Pontiac because it is a well known suburb of Detroit over Waterford. I used Mackinaw City because again its a well known place. I tried avoiding the use of bridges but the Mackinaw Br could be an exception. The outside cities are more for areas close to the border. More traffic would be interested in knowing Indianapolis is a certain direction over Ft Wayne for example.
Waterford is pretty well known. Mackinac Bridge is much more well known than Mackinaw City. Fort Wayne is the second largest city in Indiana and comes before Indianapolis so I don't see where in Michigan you'd use Indianapolis, not saying you couldn't because I-69 and US-31 would be two that you could do it on, South Bend and Fort Wayne make sense because one is right across the border pretty much and the other one is 50 miles into Indiana.
Pontiac is a control city on M-59 (e.g. at the M-53, I-75 and I-96 exits to M-59). But that doesn't make it worthy of a Tier 2.
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 15, 2023, 11:32:04 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 14, 2023, 07:21:13 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 12, 2023, 09:48:57 PM
I'm not sure what needs to be done to be qualified for a tier but I'm assuming these are for Interstate and US highways. Michigan is the only state I'll account for. My first one would be Pontiac I'm guessing this might be for US-24 which runs on the west side of Pontiac, actually Waterford would be better if this is for US-24. Mackinaw City is alright for US-23 and US-31 in the area but not I-75. For outside cities Indianapolis, Duluth, Toronto, London and Buffalo all seem pretty far out of the way to use in Michigan. The ones you picked would work fine though.
Bay City is used once on I-75 where Mackinac Bridge should be used but it's kind of a local exit so it's not a big deal.
I used Pontiac because it is a well known suburb of Detroit over Waterford. I used Mackinaw City because again its a well known place. I tried avoiding the use of bridges but the Mackinaw Br could be an exception. The outside cities are more for areas close to the border. More traffic would be interested in knowing Indianapolis is a certain direction over Ft Wayne for example.
Waterford is pretty well known. Mackinac Bridge is much more well known than Mackinaw City. Fort Wayne is the second largest city in Indiana and comes before Indianapolis so I don't see where in Michigan you'd use Indianapolis, not saying you couldn't because I-69 and US-31 would be two that you could do it on, South Bend and Fort Wayne make sense because one is right across the border pretty much and the other one is 50 miles into Indiana.
As a non Michigander I had to look up Waterford but I knew Pontiac. Guessing native Michiganders know both. I'd use Flint over either of them.
Quote from: GaryV on November 15, 2023, 03:22:55 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 15, 2023, 11:32:04 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 14, 2023, 07:21:13 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 12, 2023, 09:48:57 PM
I'm not sure what needs to be done to be qualified for a tier but I'm assuming these are for Interstate and US highways. Michigan is the only state I'll account for. My first one would be Pontiac I'm guessing this might be for US-24 which runs on the west side of Pontiac, actually Waterford would be better if this is for US-24. Mackinaw City is alright for US-23 and US-31 in the area but not I-75. For outside cities Indianapolis, Duluth, Toronto, London and Buffalo all seem pretty far out of the way to use in Michigan. The ones you picked would work fine though.
Bay City is used once on I-75 where Mackinac Bridge should be used but it's kind of a local exit so it's not a big deal.
I used Pontiac because it is a well known suburb of Detroit over Waterford. I used Mackinaw City because again its a well known place. I tried avoiding the use of bridges but the Mackinaw Br could be an exception. The outside cities are more for areas close to the border. More traffic would be interested in knowing Indianapolis is a certain direction over Ft Wayne for example.
Waterford is pretty well known. Mackinac Bridge is much more well known than Mackinaw City. Fort Wayne is the second largest city in Indiana and comes before Indianapolis so I don't see where in Michigan you'd use Indianapolis, not saying you couldn't because I-69 and US-31 would be two that you could do it on, South Bend and Fort Wayne make sense because one is right across the border pretty much and the other one is 50 miles into Indiana.
Pontiac is a control city on M-59 (e.g. at the M-53, I-75 and I-96 exits to M-59). But that doesn't make it worthy of a Tier 2.
Pontiac makes some sense there. But on US-24 I think Waterford makes more sense than Pontiac. I'm not understanding how a city qualifies for a tier here.
Intrastate for a small state like Delaware, the control cities are givens. The state is so narrow that Dover would be Tier 1 by default since it is practically in the geographical middle of the state, and all the main N-S roads that go that far south deal with Dover one way or another.
Having just been near the southern end of the state, Lewes gets a lot of attention due to it being one terminus of the Cape May Lewes Ferry. When I crossed the Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel yesterday going northbound, the first sign I saw on the Eastern Shore said "Cape May Lewes Ferry 140 miles" (I realize this is "out of state" as far as DE is concerned)
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 15, 2023, 03:53:26 PM
Quote from: GaryV on November 15, 2023, 03:22:55 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 15, 2023, 11:32:04 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 14, 2023, 07:21:13 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 12, 2023, 09:48:57 PM
I'm not sure what needs to be done to be qualified for a tier but I'm assuming these are for Interstate and US highways. Michigan is the only state I'll account for. My first one would be Pontiac I'm guessing this might be for US-24 which runs on the west side of Pontiac, actually Waterford would be better if this is for US-24. Mackinaw City is alright for US-23 and US-31 in the area but not I-75. For outside cities Indianapolis, Duluth, Toronto, London and Buffalo all seem pretty far out of the way to use in Michigan. The ones you picked would work fine though.
Bay City is used once on I-75 where Mackinac Bridge should be used but it's kind of a local exit so it's not a big deal.
I used Pontiac because it is a well known suburb of Detroit over Waterford. I used Mackinaw City because again its a well known place. I tried avoiding the use of bridges but the Mackinaw Br could be an exception. The outside cities are more for areas close to the border. More traffic would be interested in knowing Indianapolis is a certain direction over Ft Wayne for example.
Waterford is pretty well known. Mackinac Bridge is much more well known than Mackinaw City. Fort Wayne is the second largest city in Indiana and comes before Indianapolis so I don't see where in Michigan you'd use Indianapolis, not saying you couldn't because I-69 and US-31 would be two that you could do it on, South Bend and Fort Wayne make sense because one is right across the border pretty much and the other one is 50 miles into Indiana.
Pontiac is a control city on M-59 (e.g. at the M-53, I-75 and I-96 exits to M-59). But that doesn't make it worthy of a Tier 2.
Pontiac makes some sense there. But on US-24 I think Waterford makes more sense than Pontiac. I'm not understanding how a city qualifies for a tier here.
The tiers are broken down by 2 factors. Population relative to the state and by importance like if it is a city with a major university or transportation hub. I'm sure there will be disagreements.
I think Saginaw should be more than a Tier 3.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on November 15, 2023, 10:49:15 AM
Quote from: jaehak on November 15, 2023, 10:40:31 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on November 14, 2023, 11:56:25 AM
No St. Louis on I-670 East? I think that is completely reasonable there.
670 East isn't signed for anything on the Kansas side now. If it were, "Downtown" would be the way to go.
But I-70 East at the split also serves Downtown, just the north side of it.
I'm glad to see that Des Moines is not on the list for Kansas. It seems that the current practice in KS in the KC Metro area is to sign for the next control city even before reaching Downtown KC. The current usage of Des Moines is very bad and hobsini is wise for removing it.
I realize that there may be some level of confusion or provincialism regarding the two KC's. Regardless the only appropriate control for I-35 north of Wichita is Kansas City within the state of Kansas, and that control can be changed to "Downtown KC, MO" north of I-635.
I feel similarly about I-70's control within Kansas that it should not be St. Louis. Kansas City is an appropriate control until I-435 and from that point the control can switch to "Downtown KC, MO".
At the current 670/70 split appropriate controls for this road is both "Downtown KC, MO" and St. Louis. 70's control can read "Downtown KC, MO" and Independence. Both 670 and 70 do go to Downtown, and while 670 seems to be closer to more of the regional destinations that make Downtown (like convention center and sports arenas), 70 seems to have more exits to actually reach more of the Downtown. And definitely, for any Topeka-St Louis traffic that isn't bypassing KC completely, 670 is far more direct through Downtown than 70.
The KC freeway loop is definitely a conundrum. If I had magic powers, I would realign some of the highways for simplification:
I-670 removed for simplification and replaced with I-70. US 40 and US 24 should only be mentioned on supplemental signage when they leave a roadway in the area. For the most part, these routes follow the new I-70 through central KC and should be silent in the area. This means that the entire southern leg of the loop with continuing sections is simply I-70 and silent US 40 and US 24.
The current I-70 between the NW corner of the loop and 670/70 should be 670.
The northern and western legs of the loop are only I-35.
The eastern leg of the loop is combined I-29 and US 71.
I'll say New London, CT is an ok choice for I-95 in Connecticut from New Haven, but I'd rather see Providence also mentioned since most people heading past New Haven are likely going towards Rhode Island. However, I don't like the use of Groton in New London.
Quote from: mrsman on November 25, 2023, 09:04:44 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on November 15, 2023, 10:49:15 AM
Quote from: jaehak on November 15, 2023, 10:40:31 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on November 14, 2023, 11:56:25 AM
No St. Louis on I-670 East? I think that is completely reasonable there.
670 East isn't signed for anything on the Kansas side now. If it were, "Downtown" would be the way to go.
But I-70 East at the split also serves Downtown, just the north side of it.
I'm glad to see that Des Moines is not on the list for Kansas. It seems that the current practice in KS in the KC Metro area is to sign for the next control city even before reaching Downtown KC. The current usage of Des Moines is very bad and hobsini is wise for removing it.
I realize that there may be some level of confusion or provincialism regarding the two KC's. Regardless the only appropriate control for I-35 north of Wichita is Kansas City within the state of Kansas, and that control can be changed to "Downtown KC, MO" north of I-635.
I feel similarly about I-70's control within Kansas that it should not be St. Louis. Kansas City is an appropriate control until I-435 and from that point the control can switch to "Downtown KC, MO".
At the current 670/70 split appropriate controls for this road is both "Downtown KC, MO" and St. Louis. 70's control can read "Downtown KC, MO" and Independence. Both 670 and 70 do go to Downtown, and while 670 seems to be closer to more of the regional destinations that make Downtown (like convention center and sports arenas), 70 seems to have more exits to actually reach more of the Downtown. And definitely, for any Topeka-St Louis traffic that isn't bypassing KC completely, 670 is far more direct through Downtown than 70.
The KC freeway loop is definitely a conundrum. If I had magic powers, I would realign some of the highways for simplification:
I-670 removed for simplification and replaced with I-70. US 40 and US 24 should only be mentioned on supplemental signage when they leave a roadway in the area. For the most part, these routes follow the new I-70 through central KC and should be silent in the area. This means that the entire southern leg of the loop with continuing sections is simply I-70 and silent US 40 and US 24.
The current I-70 between the NW corner of the loop and 670/70 should be 670.
The northern and western legs of the loop are only I-35.
The eastern leg of the loop is combined I-29 and US 71.
I don't understand why you think Des Moines is bad in KCK.
Really what is so bad about Des Moines being the control city in Kansas City? It's the next major city north on I-35 what's the problem here? I don't at all see how it's a bad choice.
In Detroit they start using Toledo as the control city at McNichols (Six Mile) Road and that's before you get downtown. When Kansas changes the control city to Des Moines you are already in Kansas City and using Kansas City, MO is just going to be confusing especially considering you are already in Kansas City. I-35 is a through route just like I-75 is in Detroit why wouldn't you use the next city?
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 26, 2023, 07:11:54 AM
In Detroit they start using Toledo as the control city at McNichols (Six Mile) Road and that's before you get downtown. When Kansas changes the control city to Des Moines you are already in Kansas City and using Kansas City, MO is just going to be confusing especially considering you are already in Kansas City. I-35 is a through route just like I-75 is in Detroit why wouldn't you use the next city?
I have no problem with Des Moines being used inside of the 435 Loop. Same as if I was coming south. Wichita is fine inside the 435 Loop.
I agree with some of the prior Ohio comments, but here are my thoughts. Athens, Chillicothe, and Marietta all belong in Tier 3 with Zanesville. They are the hubs that come to mind when I think of Southeast Ohio (To me, Portsmouth's always feels like a separate category of Southern Ohio, but not Chillicothe, though I'm not sure why that is). I disagree with removing Marietta because West Virginia will not sign I-77 south as Charleston at the Ohio River. Rather, WVDOH will continue to use Parkersburg.
Speaking of West Virginia, my only suggestion is to move Beckley up to Tier 2. When traveling through, it feels as significant as Huntington, Morgantown, and Wheeling. It also has the 64-77 split just south of town.
Quote from: carbaugh2 on November 28, 2023, 12:43:09 PM
I disagree with removing Marietta because West Virginia will not sign I-77 south as Charleston at the Ohio River. Rather, WVDOH will continue to use Parkersburg.
Ohio don't have to base their control cities off of WV does, and WV is one of the bottom quarter states when it comes to control city choices anyways. It's like with signing I-80 for NYC; it's there even with PA using their mess of control cities further along the road.
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 11, 2023, 07:16:00 PM
Wisconsin
Tier 1: Milwaukee, Madison, Green Bay
Tier 2: Janesville/Beloit, Appleton, Oshkosh, Racine/Kenosha, Eau Claire, La Crosse, Waukesha
Tier 3: Wausau, Stevens Point, Wisconsin Dells, Fond du Lac, Beaver Dam, Sheboygan, Manitowoc, Superior
Tier 4: Portage, Tomah, Lake Geneva, Hudson, Menomonie, Marinette, Rhinelander, Sturgeon Bay, Shawano, Prairie du Chien, Dodgeville, Platteville, Rice Lake, Ashland, Hurley, Richland Center, Monroe, Watertown, Whitewater
Outside cities: Chicago IL, Rockford IL, Dubuque IA, Cedar Rapids IA, St Paul MN, Duluth MN, Marquette MI
Oshkosh, Racine, Kenosha, and Waukesha can be bumped to tier 3 in my opinion. Perhaps even tier 4 for Waukesha. I'd also put Beaver Dam in 4.
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 28, 2023, 01:06:56 PM
Quote from: carbaugh2 on November 28, 2023, 12:43:09 PM
I disagree with removing Marietta because West Virginia will not sign I-77 south as Charleston at the Ohio River. Rather, WVDOH will continue to use Parkersburg.
Ohio don't have to base their control cities off of WV does, and WV is one of the bottom quarter states when it comes to control city choices anyways. It's like with signing I-80 for NYC; it's there even with PA using their mess of control cities further along the road.
I disagree. States need to work together to maintain continuity and avoid driver confusion.
I'm not following your comment about control city choices, but I'm guessing it's based on state population. According to the 2020 census, Parkersburg is the third most populous city in West Virginia. It's small compared to cities in the nation, but it's an important city for West Virginia and will be signed as a control city there whether we are considering the OP or WVDOH.
In this case, ODOT's options are to sign I-77 south with Marietta, Parkersburg, or Charleston, the most populous city and West Virginia's state capital. While I certainly understand opting for Charleston, it is going to confuse the average traveler to sign Charleston in Ohio only for it to switch to Parkersburg across the river. I think ODOT makes the correct decision to sign one of the hubs of Southeast Ohio rather than a West Virginia city of similar size.
iPhone
Birmingham used to be the control city in Nashville for I-65. Now it's Huntsville.
If I-65 actually traversed the actual city of Huntsville or was within 5 miles and if I-565 was at a different angle, I would agree with the control city being Huntsville, although currently I disagree.
If they are going to subdivide Nashville and Birmingham, they may as well subdivide Nashville and Memphis.
Jackson is not very large, Madison County has only 100,000 population while metropolitan Nashville has 2.2 million and metropolitan Memphis has 1.3 million. And Jackson does not have any actual interstates. However...
Jackson does have US 45 and US 412. Both four-lane divided highways. Actually, 45 is 45 E and W north of the city, but still.
Ocala, Gainesville, and Valdosta are control cities in Florida and Georgia. Why not Jackson in Tennessee?
Huntsville is the largest city in Alabama by city proper population and has a metro of almost 500k, and that area is undergoing some significant growth. Jackson, TN is about 1/3 of that.
For the unfamiliar traveler, there is also a substantial risk of confusion with the more significant state capital of Jackson, Mississippi, and it is for this reason that the MS one is labeled "Jackson Miss" in Memphis. I was not aware there was a Jackson, TN until I drove through it on 40. In contrast, everyone has heard of Memphis and Nashville.
Quote from: US 89 on December 01, 2023, 12:25:35 AM
Huntsville is the largest city in Alabama by city proper population and has a metro of almost 500k, and that area is undergoing some significant growth. Jackson, TN is about 1/3 of that.
For the unfamiliar traveler, there is also a substantial risk of confusion with the more significant state capital of Jackson, Mississippi, and it is for this reason that the MS one is labeled "Jackson Miss" in Memphis. I was not aware there was a Jackson, TN until I drove through it on 40. In contrast, everyone has heard of Memphis and Nashville.
In the next 20 years or so I think a few things are going to happen:
1) Huntsville's sprawl reaches I-65 to the point that US 72 has no more farm fields between Athens and County Line Rd.
2) US 72 is widened in response to this growth
3) AL 53 is widened between Ardmore and Huntsville (potentially with a new or improved exit off I-65)
Certainly appropriate to have Huntsville as a control city, even if right now it is offline from I-65. At some point though I think Huntsville (or at least the continuous metro) starts eating into I-65's path.
Jackson, TN could be a primary control city whenever it becomes more well-known than Jackson, MS (so never).
Similarly, this is also why I support using Tulsa on I-44 WB in the St Louis area over Springfield, as there is the more well-known Springfield IL in close proximity.
Quote from: I-55 on December 01, 2023, 01:45:42 AM
Quote from: US 89 on December 01, 2023, 12:25:35 AM
Huntsville is the largest city in Alabama by city proper population and has a metro of almost 500k, and that area is undergoing some significant growth. Jackson, TN is about 1/3 of that.
For the unfamiliar traveler, there is also a substantial risk of confusion with the more significant state capital of Jackson, Mississippi, and it is for this reason that the MS one is labeled "Jackson Miss" in Memphis. I was not aware there was a Jackson, TN until I drove through it on 40. In contrast, everyone has heard of Memphis and Nashville.
In the next 20 years or so I think a few things are going to happen:
1) Huntsville's sprawl reaches I-65 to the point that US 72 has no more farm fields between Athens and County Line Rd.
2) US 72 is widened in response to this growth
3) AL 53 is widened between Ardmore and Huntsville (potentially with a new or improved exit off I-65)
Certainly appropriate to have Huntsville as a control city, even if right now it is offline from I-65. At some point though I think Huntsville (or at least the continuous metro) starts eating into I-65's path.
Huntsville technically already crosses I-65 in two spots as well, per the city's website (https://maps.huntsvilleal.gov/citylimits/). Huntsville & the metro also seem to be growing along the I-565/AL 20 corridor between Decatur-proper and Huntsville/Madison County-proper. Almost certainly helped by the fact that there are frontage roads along I-565 in Limestone County.
As a side note, the mileage signs on I-65 in Tennessee going south out of Nashville still only list Birmingham on them, IIRC.
Quote from: SkyPesos on December 01, 2023, 02:18:31 AM
Jackson, TN could be a primary control city whenever it becomes more well-known than Jackson, MS (so never).
Similarly, this is also why I support using Tulsa on I-44 WB in the St Louis area over Springfield, as there is the more well-known Springfield IL in close proximity.
There is no comparison between Springfield, Mo., and Jackson, Tenn. Springfield is deserving of primary control city status (so too is Joplin due to it being an interstate crossroads now). And the control city north of St. Louis is Chicago, not Springfield, Ill.
Quote from: hbelkins on December 01, 2023, 10:11:40 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on December 01, 2023, 02:18:31 AM
Jackson, TN could be a primary control city whenever it becomes more well-known than Jackson, MS (so never).
Similarly, this is also why I support using Tulsa on I-44 WB in the St Louis area over Springfield, as there is the more well-known Springfield IL in close proximity.
There is no comparison between Springfield, Mo., and Jackson, Tenn. Springfield is deserving of primary control city status (so too is Joplin due to it being an interstate crossroads now). And the control city north of St. Louis is Chicago, not Springfield, Ill.
It's still going to confuse people
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 01, 2023, 10:49:47 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on December 01, 2023, 10:11:40 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on December 01, 2023, 02:18:31 AM
Jackson, TN could be a primary control city whenever it becomes more well-known than Jackson, MS (so never).
Similarly, this is also why I support using Tulsa on I-44 WB in the St Louis area over Springfield, as there is the more well-known Springfield IL in close proximity.
There is no comparison between Springfield, Mo., and Jackson, Tenn. Springfield is deserving of primary control city status (so too is Joplin due to it being an interstate crossroads now). And the control city north of St. Louis is Chicago, not Springfield, Ill.
It's still going to confuse people
I mean, if confusion's gonna be that big of an issue, you can always put the state abbreviation after the city name.
Quote from: freebrickproductions on December 01, 2023, 03:36:02 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 01, 2023, 10:49:47 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on December 01, 2023, 10:11:40 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on December 01, 2023, 02:18:31 AM
Jackson, TN could be a primary control city whenever it becomes more well-known than Jackson, MS (so never).
Similarly, this is also why I support using Tulsa on I-44 WB in the St Louis area over Springfield, as there is the more well-known Springfield IL in close proximity.
There is no comparison between Springfield, Mo., and Jackson, Tenn. Springfield is deserving of primary control city status (so too is Joplin due to it being an interstate crossroads now). And the control city north of St. Louis is Chicago, not Springfield, Ill.
It's still going to confuse people
I mean, if confusion's gonna be that big of an issue, you can always put the state abbreviation after the city name.
This is exactly what Massachusetts does when signing out of state control cities. For example Portsmouth, NH, Providence, RI, Hartford, CT.
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 11, 2023, 07:16:00 PM
Minnesota
Tier 1: Minneapolis/St Paul, Duluth, Rochester
Tier 2: St Cloud, Bloomington, Mankato
Tier 3: Albert Lea, Bemidji, Grand Rapids, Alexandria, Willmar, Worthington, Winona, Fergus Falls, Marshall
Tier 4: Thief River Falls, International Falls, Virginia, Detroit Lakes, Owatonna, Fairmont, Austin, Red Wing, Hinckley
Outside cities: Chicago IL, Madison WI, Green Bay WI, Thunder Bay ON, Winnipeg MB, Grand Forks ND, Fargo ND, Sioux Falls, Des Moines IA, Cedar Rapids IA
Owatonna should probably be in tier 3 for US 14. It's 26,000 people, the site of two important junctions, and it's a fairly standalone city not really paired with anything else. MnDOT should probably use it over Waseca.
You're right. Jackson, TN and Jackson, MS would confuse people. So Jackson, TN would be out as a control city.
Keep Memphis and Nashville as the control cities.
Quote from: thspfc on November 28, 2023, 01:31:30 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 11, 2023, 07:16:00 PM
Wisconsin
Tier 1: Milwaukee, Madison, Green Bay
Tier 2: Janesville/Beloit, Appleton, Oshkosh, Racine/Kenosha, Eau Claire, La Crosse, Waukesha
Tier 3: Wausau, Stevens Point, Wisconsin Dells, Fond du Lac, Beaver Dam, Sheboygan, Manitowoc, Superior
Tier 4: Portage, Tomah, Lake Geneva, Hudson, Menomonie, Marinette, Rhinelander, Sturgeon Bay, Shawano, Prairie du Chien, Dodgeville, Platteville, Rice Lake, Ashland, Hurley, Richland Center, Monroe, Watertown, Whitewater
Outside cities: Chicago IL, Rockford IL, Dubuque IA, Cedar Rapids IA, St Paul MN, Duluth MN, Marquette MI
Oshkosh, Racine, Kenosha, and Waukesha can be bumped to tier 3 in my opinion. Perhaps even tier 4 for Waukesha. I'd also put Beaver Dam in 4.
Now that I think about it, yes Beaver Dam should be tier 4, not 3. As for your other suggested tier moves, I would keep Racine/Kenosha and Waukesha as a Tier 2 in the same way that they are exburbs of Milwaukee like how Aurora and Elgin are for Chicago.
Quote from: Daniel Fiddler on November 30, 2023, 11:58:38 PM
Birmingham used to be the control city in Nashville for I-65. Now it's Huntsville.
If I-65 actually traversed the actual city of Huntsville or was within 5 miles and if I-565 was at a different angle, I would agree with the control city being Huntsville, although currently I disagree.
If they are going to subdivide Nashville and Birmingham, they may as well subdivide Nashville and Memphis.
Jackson is not very large, Madison County has only 100,000 population while metropolitan Nashville has 2.2 million and metropolitan Memphis has 1.3 million. And Jackson does not have any actual interstates. However...
Jackson does have US 45 and US 412. Both four-lane divided highways. Actually, 45 is 45 E and W north of the city, but still.
Ocala, Gainesville, and Valdosta are control cities in Florida and Georgia. Why not Jackson in Tennessee?
I know Birmingham used to be the control on I-65 out of Nashville. And I agree that it still should be. However, now with Huntsville being larger in pop, it is difficult to leave off Huntsville from Tier 1.
I do have Jackson on Tier 3 for Tennessee.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 01, 2023, 11:11:18 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 11, 2023, 07:16:00 PM
Minnesota
Tier 1: Minneapolis/St Paul, Duluth, Rochester
Tier 2: St Cloud, Bloomington, Mankato
Tier 3: Albert Lea, Bemidji, Grand Rapids, Alexandria, Willmar, Worthington, Winona, Fergus Falls, Marshall
Tier 4: Thief River Falls, International Falls, Virginia, Detroit Lakes, Owatonna, Fairmont, Austin, Red Wing, Hinckley
Outside cities: Chicago IL, Madison WI, Green Bay WI, Thunder Bay ON, Winnipeg MB, Grand Forks ND, Fargo ND, Sioux Falls, Des Moines IA, Cedar Rapids IA
Owatonna should probably be in tier 3 for US 14. It's 26,000 people, the site of two important junctions, and it's a fairly standalone city not really paired with anything else. MnDOT should probably use it over Waseca.
While I am familiar with Owatonna having lived in Minnesota for 2 years, I think most people outside of Southern Minnesota have not heard of it. Albert Lea and Mankato are the next most well known after Rochester IMO. That's why they are a tier up.
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 26, 2023, 07:03:29 AM
Really what is so bad about Des Moines being the control city in Kansas City? It's the next major city north on I-35 what's the problem here? I don't at all see how it's a bad choice.
From my vantage point, the next control city should be signed only once you pass through the Downtown of the city. Until then, Downtown should be the control.
So in the Detroit area, even though the SB I-75 control begins to be Toledo once you cross into city limits, I would argue that the SB control at that point should be Downtown. From 8 Mile Rd all the way to the 75/375 interchange. South of 75/375 Toledo is an appropriate control.
And from that same perspective, I don't want to see Des Moines as a control for NB I-35 until I'm in Downtown Kansas City, which means somewhere in the area of the 35/70/670 loop. It is too early to see it at I-435/35, or any where within Kansas for that matter.
Quote from: mrsman on December 04, 2023, 08:49:21 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 26, 2023, 07:03:29 AM
Really what is so bad about Des Moines being the control city in Kansas City? It's the next major city north on I-35 what's the problem here? I don't at all see how it's a bad choice.
From my vantage point, the next control city should be signed only once you pass through the Downtown of the city. Until then, Downtown should be the control.
So in the Detroit area, even though the SB I-75 control begins to be Toledo once you cross into city limits, I would argue that the SB control at that point should be Downtown. From 8 Mile Rd all the way to the 75/375 interchange. South of 75/375 Toledo is an appropriate control.
And from that same perspective, I don't want to see Des Moines as a control for NB I-35 until I'm in Downtown Kansas City, which means somewhere in the area of the 35/70/670 loop. It is too early to see it at I-435/35, or any where within Kansas for that matter.
I would argue that the SB control city should be Toledo at that point, you are already in Detroit and using Downtown doesn't do any good for a through route.
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 04, 2023, 09:18:29 PM
Quote from: mrsman on December 04, 2023, 08:49:21 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 26, 2023, 07:03:29 AM
Really what is so bad about Des Moines being the control city in Kansas City? It's the next major city north on I-35 what's the problem here? I don't at all see how it's a bad choice.
From my vantage point, the next control city should be signed only once you pass through the Downtown of the city. Until then, Downtown should be the control.
So in the Detroit area, even though the SB I-75 control begins to be Toledo once you cross into city limits, I would argue that the SB control at that point should be Downtown. From 8 Mile Rd all the way to the 75/375 interchange. South of 75/375 Toledo is an appropriate control.
And from that same perspective, I don't want to see Des Moines as a control for NB I-35 until I'm in Downtown Kansas City, which means somewhere in the area of the 35/70/670 loop. It is too early to see it at I-435/35, or any where within Kansas for that matter.
I would argue that the SB control city should be Toledo at that point, you are already in Detroit and using Downtown doesn't do any good for a through route.
I would think usage of "downtown" depends upon whether there are exits for downtown.
I haven't been to the north side of Philadelphia since I-95 got rerouted onto the PA Turnpike to go to NJ, so I don't know if what I'm about to say is still current. Before that, when you came south on I-95 and entered the city limits, the signs said Downtown Philadelphia until you got downtown (the I-676 exit), then it changed to Chester.
Quote from: tmoore952 on December 04, 2023, 10:04:38 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 04, 2023, 09:18:29 PM
Quote from: mrsman on December 04, 2023, 08:49:21 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 26, 2023, 07:03:29 AM
Really what is so bad about Des Moines being the control city in Kansas City? It's the next major city north on I-35 what's the problem here? I don't at all see how it's a bad choice.
From my vantage point, the next control city should be signed only once you pass through the Downtown of the city. Until then, Downtown should be the control.
So in the Detroit area, even though the SB I-75 control begins to be Toledo once you cross into city limits, I would argue that the SB control at that point should be Downtown. From 8 Mile Rd all the way to the 75/375 interchange. South of 75/375 Toledo is an appropriate control.
And from that same perspective, I don't want to see Des Moines as a control for NB I-35 until I'm in Downtown Kansas City, which means somewhere in the area of the 35/70/670 loop. It is too early to see it at I-435/35, or any where within Kansas for that matter.
I would argue that the SB control city should be Toledo at that point, you are already in Detroit and using Downtown doesn't do any good for a through route.
I would think usage of "downtown" depends upon whether there are exits for downtown.
I haven't been to the north side of Philadelphia since I-95 got rerouted onto the PA Turnpike to go to NJ, so I don't know if what I'm about to say is still current. Before that, when you came south on I-95 and entered the city limits, the signs said Downtown Philadelphia until you got downtown (the I-676 exit), then it changed to Chester.
One could make a case for signing a through city over a Downtown if there is a split before Downtown. For example, the northbound signs at the Mitchell Interchange in Milwaukee could easily say Downtown Milwaukee AND Green Bay for I-43/94 since that is the preferred route from Chicago even though US/I-41 goes to Green Bay as well.
I think it's more of a case by case basis than just one flat rule.
Quote from: mrsman on December 04, 2023, 08:49:21 PM
From my vantage point, the next control city should be signed only once you pass through the Downtown of the city. Until then, Downtown should be the control.
So in the Detroit area, even though the SB I-75 control begins to be Toledo once you cross into city limits, I would argue that the SB control at that point should be Downtown. From 8 Mile Rd all the way to the 75/375 interchange. South of 75/375 Toledo is an appropriate control.
And from that same perspective, I don't want to see Des Moines as a control for NB I-35 until I'm in Downtown Kansas City, which means somewhere in the area of the 35/70/670 loop. It is too early to see it at I-435/35, or any where within Kansas for that matter.
Caltrans District 7 seems to go crazy doing stuff like this. For example, the control city on southbound I-5 is Los Angeles until the CA-110 interchange, where it switches to Santa Ana, despite 5 having been in and out of LA municipal limits for over 20 miles before that point. It's the same thing on I-10: at the merge with I-5, US-101's signed northbound for Los Angeles, about a mile from downtown.
Toledo is acceptable it starts at 7 Mile actually, at 8 Mile the control city is still Detroit. I-96 uses downtown and then before it even gets downtown uses Bridge to Canada.
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 11, 2023, 07:16:00 PM
North Carolina
Tier 1: Charlotte, Raleigh, Greensboro, Winston-Salem
Tier 2: Durham, Asheville, Fayetteville, Wilmington, Hickory, Gastonia, Rocky Mount
Tier 3: Waynesville, Hendersonville, Salisbury, Morganton, Kannapolis, Rockingham, Asheboro, Burlington, Chapel Hill, Greenville, Jacksonville, Goldsboro, Wilson
Tier 4: Murphy, Franklin, Statesville, Boone, Mt Airy, Sanford, Lumberton, New Bern, Whiteville, Elizabeth City, Roanoke Rapids, Henderson, Kill Devil Hills, Williamston, Morehead City
Outside cities: Richmond VA, Roanoke VA, Norfolk VA, Knoxville TN, Chattanooga TN, Atlanta GA, Greenville SC, Columbia SC, Charleston SC
This is spot on for North Carolina. I might add Elkin, Ahoskie, Louisburg, and Oxford (which should be posted on the 85-885 junction rather than Henderson) to the Tier 4 list.
BGSs and mileage signs often skip over suburbs and satellite cities in metros, which is why I'm fine with Kannapolis and Salisbury taking a backseat to Charlotte on 85. Same for Greensboro over Burlington and Durham over Chapel Hill.