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Widening I-81 from I-83 to I-78 in PA

Started by Roadsguy, September 04, 2012, 08:08:40 AM

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billpa



74/171FAN

Quote from: jemacedo9 on November 01, 2017, 07:28:36 AM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on October 31, 2017, 06:01:34 PM
I-81 SB was three lanes from Exits 72-70 when I drove it Sunday.  The third lane comes from the merge of the ramp from Exit 72 onto the interstate south of the interchange.  The ramps from Mountain Rd onto I-81 SB merge together now before that ramp merges onto I-81 SB.

NB still has work that needs to be done but a third lane makes it most of the way to Exit 72 now.

So does the former left lane of I-81 SB now become an exit only lane for I-83?  On I-81 SB, is there now a lane shift required for both lanes to continue on I-81 SB after I-83?

The answer to your first question is yes.  The former right lane of I-81 SB becomes the left lane through the I-83 interchange so you would not have to shift lanes from that lane.
I am now a PennDOT employee.  My opinions/views do not necessarily reflect the opinions/views of PennDOT.

froggie

That's a heavy enough traffic split that I don't see it being that huge of a deal.

Interstate 69 Fan

I usually travel I-81 between I-76 and I-84. It's TERRIBLE between I-83 and I-78, usually takes us 30-40 minutes just to get between the two, only to go 19 miles. Past I-78, it's fine.
Apparently I’m a fan of I-69.  Who knew.

Strider

Quote from: Interstate 69 Fan on November 03, 2017, 08:37:28 AM
I usually travel I-81 between I-76 and I-84. It's TERRIBLE between I-83 and I-78, usually takes us 30-40 minutes just to get between the two, only to go 19 miles. Past I-78, it's fine.


I agree. I-81 between I-83 and I-78 is usually TERRIBLE every time I travel between these interstates. I-81 needs to be 6 lanes between these two.

Beltway

Quote from: Strider on November 03, 2017, 12:05:40 PM
Quote from: Interstate 69 Fan on November 03, 2017, 08:37:28 AM
I usually travel I-81 between I-76 and I-84. It's TERRIBLE between I-83 and I-78, usually takes us 30-40 minutes just to get between the two, only to go 19 miles. Past I-78, it's fine.
I agree. I-81 between I-83 and I-78 is usually TERRIBLE every time I travel between these interstates. I-81 needs to be 6 lanes between these two.

Only during typical weekday morning and afternoon metropolitan peak commuting hours?
Or at what other times as well?
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jemacedo9

Quote from: Beltway on November 03, 2017, 01:46:19 PM
Quote from: Strider on November 03, 2017, 12:05:40 PM
Quote from: Interstate 69 Fan on November 03, 2017, 08:37:28 AM
I usually travel I-81 between I-76 and I-84. It’s TERRIBLE between I-83 and I-78, usually takes us 30-40 minutes just to get between the two, only to go 19 miles. Past I-78, it’s fine.
I agree. I-81 between I-83 and I-78 is usually TERRIBLE every time I travel between these interstates. I-81 needs to be 6 lanes between these two.

Only during typical weekday morning and afternoon metropolitan peak commuting hours?
Or at what other times as well?

It is slow midday weekdays and weekend days...just a lot of volume, including a lot of trucks. It definitely could be 6 lanes from I-83 to I-78. I think that I-81 south of PA 581 through/past Carlisle is pretty heavy also.

signalman

I've only experienced congestion on this section once and it was raining, so I chalked it up to the weather.  I don't think I've ever driven that section in the peak direction during commuting hours, and I'd most certainly avoid doing so if at all possible.  If I ever passed through on a weekend, it was either early in the morning or after dark.  I guess I've been lucky overall.  Although, I do know that if PennDOT deemed it necessary to be 6 lanes then it's been needed for a long time  :sombrero:

briantroutman

I lived in Harrisburg for a couple of years around 2005, and I don't recall the stretch of I-81 between I-83 and I-78 to be the major (all caps and bold type) traffic trouble spot that people are claiming it to be. As I recall, traffic would slow to a crawl in the vicinity of the I-81/I-83 interchange, and while traffic was typically heavy up through the Linglestown Road interchange (PA 39), it was generally flowing at or near posted speeds, even during rush hours. If there was an incident, however, traffic would start to mount very quickly. North of Linglestown Road up through the I-78 split was almost always a fast ride.

Scanning through Google Maps' typical traffic, I see only one major trouble area. Southbound I-81 tends to back up–both during the morning and afternoon peaks–between Linglestown Road and I-83. The worst day and time appears to be Friday at 4:30 p.m., when traffic starts to slow approaching PA 39 and is at nearly a standstill between that interchange and the Linglestown/Paxtonia exit. But once you get beyond the merge area from I-83 NB to I-81 NB, I can't find a corresponding backup northbound on any day at any time. And both directions are green from Grantville to I-78 on all times, all days of the week.


jemacedo9

I should have clarified slow: in this case, hard to maintain 55/65 for that entire stretch. it's a lot of speeding up to 65 and then slowing down for pockets of truck traffic. The volumes are high enough that 45/50 seems to be the general speed.  So...may be that Google maps shows green; but I wouldn't call it free-flowing either. 

Roadsguy

It should be six lanes out to 78, but you could make a case for 8 between 83 and 39 (and 22/322 to 83).
Mileage-based exit numbering implies the existence of mileage-cringe exit numbering.

froggie

^^ If it's going at least 45, then by most standard definitions it's "free flow".  Drivers may not agree (clearly you don't), but 45 MPH is a general speed threshold for whether congestion is occurring or not.

Would it be nice to have 6 lanes up to the 78 split?  Sure.  Is it warranted because of congestion?  Based on comments in this thread plus my own observations, I'd say no.

Alps

Quote from: froggie on November 05, 2017, 08:05:07 AM
^^ If it's going at least 45, then by most standard definitions it's "free flow".  Drivers may not agree (clearly you don't), but 45 MPH is a general speed threshold for whether congestion is occurring or not.

Would it be nice to have 6 lanes up to the 78 split?  Sure.  Is it warranted because of congestion?  Based on comments in this thread plus my own observations, I'd say no.

45 mph is not the "threshold for congestion." About 5 mph below the speed limit is when operations are noticeably degraded. That would roughly correspond to the LOS D/E threshold. Even if you still have traffic moving at that point, you warrant an additional lane. In my experience, I-81 clearly warrants another lane.

froggie

Get out of New Jersey and check out what some other DOTs consider, Steve...for example, 45 is MnDOT's standard threshold for gauging hours of congestion in the Twin Cities.

I may have erred in saying "most standard definitions", but MnDOT isn't the only place I've seen 45 referenced.  There are also plenty of other measures of congestion besides LOS.

Alps

Quote from: froggie on November 05, 2017, 12:40:18 PM
Get out of New Jersey and check out what some other DOTs consider, Steve...for example, 45 is MnDOT's standard threshold for gauging hours of congestion in the Twin Cities.

I may have erred in saying "most standard definitions", but MnDOT isn't the only place I've seen 45 referenced.  There are also plenty of other measures of congestion besides LOS.

I'm just going by the Highway Capacity Manual and standard traffic engineering practice, as well as my professional observations. Sorry, but I have to pull that card at some point. Also, what you might tolerate in an urban setting is different from semi-rural such as 81.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: Alps on November 05, 2017, 11:11:12 AM
Quote from: froggie on November 05, 2017, 08:05:07 AM
^^ If it's going at least 45, then by most standard definitions it's "free flow".  Drivers may not agree (clearly you don't), but 45 MPH is a general speed threshold for whether congestion is occurring or not.

Would it be nice to have 6 lanes up to the 78 split?  Sure.  Is it warranted because of congestion?  Based on comments in this thread plus my own observations, I'd say no.

45 mph is not the "threshold for congestion." About 5 mph below the speed limit is when operations are noticeably degraded. That would roughly correspond to the LOS D/E threshold. Even if you still have traffic moving at that point, you warrant an additional lane. In my experience, I-81 clearly warrants another lane.

I strongly concur.  45 MPH on a road with a posted limit of 55 MPH or better (I don't remember what the limits are on I-78 westbound approaching I-81 or on I-81 southbound approaching I-83 are) is not a good thing, and I think it likely that that LOS D/E tends to lead to crashes. 
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Beltway

Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 05, 2017, 07:55:06 PM
Quote from: Alps on November 05, 2017, 11:11:12 AM
Quote from: froggie on November 05, 2017, 08:05:07 AM
^^ If it's going at least 45, then by most standard definitions it's "free flow".  Drivers may not agree (clearly you don't), but 45 MPH is a general speed threshold for whether congestion is occurring or not.
Would it be nice to have 6 lanes up to the 78 split?  Sure.  Is it warranted because of congestion?  Based on comments in this thread plus my own observations, I'd say no.
45 mph is not the "threshold for congestion." About 5 mph below the speed limit is when operations are noticeably degraded. That would roughly correspond to the LOS D/E threshold. Even if you still have traffic moving at that point, you warrant an additional lane. In my experience, I-81 clearly warrants another lane.
I strongly concur.  45 MPH on a road with a posted limit of 55 MPH or better (I don't remember what the limits are on I-78 westbound approaching I-81 or on I-81 southbound approaching I-83 are) is not a good thing, and I think it likely that that LOS D/E tends to lead to crashes. 

Like Steve said, what you might tolerate in an urban setting is different from semi-rural such as 81.  Some these discussions about rural Interstate congestion compare it to what might be tolerated on an urban freeway, and I would make the same distinction, for example while 70,000 AADT may be tolerable on a 4-lane urban freeway, even 45,000 AADT would be problematic on say a 50-mile section of 4-lane rural Interstate highway and the kind of rolling backups might happen in peak hours on a long section of highway.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

74/171FAN

Quote from: billpa on November 01, 2017, 01:15:12 PM
As construction winds down for winter, I-81 to be three lanes near Harrisburg

http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/11/as_construction_winds_down_for.html#incart_river_mobile_home

HTC6525LVW



Both directions of I-81 are now three lanes from I-83 to Mountain Rd (Exits 70-72) as of Monday.

Before Monday, it was three lanes up to the exit to Exit 72A but the third lane ended about 1/4-1/2 mile before. 
I am now a PennDOT employee.  My opinions/views do not necessarily reflect the opinions/views of PennDOT.

74/171FAN

With a virtual public meeting ongoing regarding the I-81 corridor south of I-78 as a whole, I propose changing this thread into a general I-81 thread for either this entire corridor or even all of PA.
I am now a PennDOT employee.  My opinions/views do not necessarily reflect the opinions/views of PennDOT.

Crown Victoria

Quote from: 74/171FAN on September 17, 2020, 05:02:40 PM
With a virtual public meeting ongoing regarding the I-81 corridor south of I-78 as a whole, I propose changing this thread into a general I-81 thread for either this entire corridor or even all of PA.

There's definitely enough going on (or proposed to happen at some point) along I-81 in PA to warrant expanding this thread. Expanding at least to include the corridor from Maryland to I-78 should happen, but considering there's also a lot of work lined up in the Wyoming Valley, calling this thread I-81 in PA is not without merit.

The Ghostbuster

Any chance they could add an interchange between Interstate 81 and the Interstate 76/Pennsylvania Turnpike? Although if they did that, they might have to close both highways' interchanges with US 11 due to the existing exits' proximity to Interstate 81 crossing over the Interstate 76/Pennsylvania Turnpike.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 17, 2020, 08:45:42 PM
Any chance they could add an interchange between Interstate 81 and the Interstate 76/Pennsylvania Turnpike? Although if they did that, they might have to close both highways' interchanges with US 11 due to the existing exits' proximity to Interstate 81 crossing over the Interstate 76/Pennsylvania Turnpike.

The excuse about needing toll plazas to dispense tickets and collect cash between the Turnpike and intersecting "free" freeways no longer applies, since the entire PTC network is now cashless.  But I doubt that the PTC and PennDOT have much interest in bypassing Breezewood-style non-connections.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

74/171FAN

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 17, 2020, 08:45:42 PM
Any chance they could add an interchange between Interstate 81 and the Interstate 76/Pennsylvania Turnpike? Although if they did that, they might have to close both highways' interchanges with US 11 due to the existing exits' proximity to Interstate 81 crossing over the Interstate 76/Pennsylvania Turnpike.

I think that they would make sure the I-81/US 11 interchange at Exit 52 stayed if a direct connection was built between I-81 and the PA Turnpike.  I am not so sure about the I-76 one though economic interests may win in this entire battle anyway.
I am now a PennDOT employee.  My opinions/views do not necessarily reflect the opinions/views of PennDOT.

seicer

Quote from: Crown Victoria on September 17, 2020, 08:43:32 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on September 17, 2020, 05:02:40 PM
With a virtual public meeting ongoing regarding the I-81 corridor south of I-78 as a whole, I propose changing this thread into a general I-81 thread for either this entire corridor or even all of PA.

There's definitely enough going on (or proposed to happen at some point) along I-81 in PA to warrant expanding this thread. Expanding at least to include the corridor from Maryland to I-78 should happen, but considering there's also a lot of work lined up in the Wyoming Valley, calling this thread I-81 in PA is not without merit.

I know the bridges are being widened in the Wyoming Valley, but is there a project page or timetable for widening? It's gotten pretty rough that I've taken the Turnpike to bypass stoppages and congestion during peak times.

Crown Victoria

Quote from: seicer on September 18, 2020, 10:11:03 AM
Quote from: Crown Victoria on September 17, 2020, 08:43:32 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on September 17, 2020, 05:02:40 PM
With a virtual public meeting ongoing regarding the I-81 corridor south of I-78 as a whole, I propose changing this thread into a general I-81 thread for either this entire corridor or even all of PA.

There's definitely enough going on (or proposed to happen at some point) along I-81 in PA to warrant expanding this thread. Expanding at least to include the corridor from Maryland to I-78 should happen, but considering there's also a lot of work lined up in the Wyoming Valley, calling this thread I-81 in PA is not without merit.

I know the bridges are being widened in the Wyoming Valley, but is there a project page or timetable for widening? It's gotten pretty rough that I've taken the Turnpike to bypass stoppages and congestion during peak times.

If there's a project page for the Wyoming Valley I-81 work, I'm not aware of it. However, I do know there's the project announced last December around the 81/309 interchange near Wilkes-Barre, as well as the Scranton Beltway work with the Turnpike. There was a project also lined up at one time to widen from Moosic to Dunmore, but as far as I'm aware that's not imminent. Of course all these projects could be changed/delayed with the current situation we're in.



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