Pennsylvania

[jemacedo9]

Doesn't matter what agency in PA it is, they are all horrible with sign mods.

See also, the 276 shield over the NJ Tpk Shield (or vice versa) on the PA Tpk near Valley Forge.

That one has since been replaced...but it was brutal.  Further west at the Downingtown interchange, for years you could see the corners of an old PA 9 shield sticking out from under an I-476 shield.

[Roadsguy]

Doesn't matter what agency in PA it is, they are all horrible with sign mods.

See also, the 276 shield over the NJ Tpk Shield (or vice versa) on the PA Tpk near Valley Forge.

That one has since been replaced...but it was brutal.  Further west at the Downingtown interchange, for years you could see the corners of an old PA 9 shield sticking out from under an I-476 shield.

There were still quite a few assorted signs with PA 9 still peeking from under I-476, mostly signs at the gores of toll plazas. I do remember the overhead sign at Downingtown before that was replaced. I think they're all replaced now; the last one I knew of was at Willow Grove.

[jeffandnicole]

Doesn't matter what agency in PA it is, they are all horrible with sign mods.

See also, the 276 shield over the NJ Tpk Shield (or vice versa) on the PA Tpk near Valley Forge.

That one has since been replaced...but it was brutal.  Further west at the Downingtown interchange, for years you could see the corners of an old PA 9 shield sticking out from under an I-476 shield.

There were still quite a few assorted signs with PA 9 still peeking from under I-476, mostly signs at the gores of toll plazas. I do remember the overhead sign at Downingtown before that was replaced. I think they're all replaced now; the last one I knew of was at Willow Grove.

Yep, all replaced. But they lasted a few decades. And when signage has a life expectancy of a few decades, that shows how old that signage was!

I've commented before about the "Old Exit" signage that is never removed, to the point where new "Old Exit" signage finally replaced 15 year-old Old Exit signage on I-95, now I-295.

[jemacedo9]

Doesn't matter what agency in PA it is, they are all horrible with sign mods.

See also, the 276 shield over the NJ Tpk Shield (or vice versa) on the PA Tpk near Valley Forge.

That one has since been replaced...but it was brutal.  Further west at the Downingtown interchange, for years you could see the corners of an old PA 9 shield sticking out from under an I-476 shield.

There were still quite a few assorted signs with PA 9 still peeking from under I-476, mostly signs at the gores of toll plazas. I do remember the overhead sign at Downingtown before that was replaced. I think they're all replaced now; the last one I knew of was at Willow Grove.

Yep, all replaced. But they lasted a few decades. And when signage has a life expectancy of a few decades, that shows how old that signage was!

I've commented before about the "Old Exit" signage that is never removed, to the point where new "Old Exit" signage finally replaced 15 year-old Old Exit signage on I-95, now I-295.

Agreed (that PA 9 one was overlaid ~1996 and replaced ~2016),  and agreed...

[seicer]

https://www.facebook.com/ZiggysPowersport/posts/1160394334308330

RIP Old PA Route 61 in Centralia AKA Graffiti Highway

[briantroutman]

Good riddance.

[Alps]

Good riddance.

Unfortunately. 15 years ago it was a great place to explore for the roads community. By even 10 years ago it became overrun with the worst elements of teenage society.

[ozarkman417]

We live in a society.....It's a shame I never got to see it in person.

For the sake of history I like the idea of PennDOT buying as little as a couple hundred feet of the highway near the southern end of the abandoned stretch to preserve it (whats the worst that could happen, its already been graffiti-ed to death). I see that it was only recently that PennDOT sold the stretch but keeping a fraction of it would have been a good idea.

[74/171FAN]

We live in a society.....It's a shame I never got to see it in person.

For the sake of history I like the idea of PennDOT buying as little as a couple hundred feet of the highway near the southern end of the abandoned stretch to preserve it (whats the worst that could happen, its already been graffiti-ed to death). I see that it was only recently that PennDOT sold the stretch but keeping a fraction of it would have been a good idea.

I feel like there were probably a higher amount of visitors there the last few weeks.  As a result, I am pretty sure that the timeline to do this was moved up to keep people away.

[noelbotevera]

We live in a society.....It's a shame I never got to see it in person.

For the sake of history I like the idea of PennDOT buying as little as a couple hundred feet of the highway near the southern end of the abandoned stretch to preserve it (whats the worst that could happen, its already been graffiti-ed to death). I see that it was only recently that PennDOT sold the stretch but keeping a fraction of it would have been a good idea.

I feel like there were probably a higher amount of visitors there the last few weeks.  As a result, I am pretty sure that the timeline to do this was moved up to keep people away.

Back when I visited last fall, I actually had no clue that abandoned PA 61 was still state property. Sure, there were obligatory "No Trespassing" signs, but there was nobody stopping me (except for two piles of gravel with clear paths through them). There were also other cars parked there, so I just assumed that it was A-OK to enter. It wasn't until I posted about the trip here that somebody told me that the state still owned PA 61.

Now as to why the state still owns the road, I have no clue, because there's no point in maintaining 4 lanes on PA 61 (it goes down to 2 at the north end near PA 42, even before the fire closed the road). IMO they should've given it up and let it rot to nature or turn it into a bike trail.

[ozarkman417]

We live in a society.....It's a shame I never got to see it in person.

For the sake of history I like the idea of PennDOT buying as little as a couple hundred feet of the highway near the southern end of the abandoned stretch to preserve it (whats the worst that could happen, its already been graffiti-ed to death). I see that it was only recently that PennDOT sold the stretch but keeping a fraction of it would have been a good idea.

I feel like there were probably a higher amount of visitors there the last few weeks.  As a result, I am pretty sure that the timeline to do this was moved up to keep people away.

Back when I visited last fall, I actually had no clue that abandoned PA 61 was still state property. Sure, there were obligatory "No Trespassing" signs, but there was nobody stopping me (except for two piles of gravel with clear paths through them). There were also other cars parked there, so I just assumed that it was A-OK to enter. It wasn't until I posted about the trip here that somebody told me that the state still owned PA 61.

Now as to why the state still owns the road, I have no clue, because there's no point in maintaining 4 lanes on PA 61 (it goes down to 2 at the north end near PA 42, even before the fire closed the road). IMO they should've given it up and let it rot to nature or turn it into a bike trail.

Last fall? This article says the highway has been owned by a private company since at least early to mid 2018. That article also says PennDOT was trying to keep people off the old highway, though at the same time I wouldn't trust a private company to preserve the highway.

[simon]

Anyone remember when PA-33 (then the PA-115 freeway) had a temporary southern terminus onto Sullivan Trail?

[Hwy 61 Revisited]

Anyone remember when PA-33 (then the PA-115 freeway) had a temporary southern terminus onto Sullivan Trail?

Pepperidge Farm remembers...

[ipeters61]

Good riddance.

Unfortunately. 15 years ago it was a great place to explore for the roads community. By even 10 years ago it became overrun with the worst elements of teenage society.

I agree.  My grandparents lived about 30 minutes from Centralia so we went a few times for my grandfather to tell people the story.  When I started hearing "Graffiti Highway" I just was cringing.  The way it's been treated is incredibly disrespectful to the people who have actual ties to Centralia.

[DJStephens]

[quote Anyone remember when PA-33 (then the PA-115 freeway) had a temporary southern terminus onto Sullivan Trail?
[/quote]

   Neat road.  Remember it in the early eighties - while traveling to aunt/uncles place in Allentown area for thanksgiving dinner.   Was part of a long detour around the NYC area.   Interstate 84 to port jervis, route 209 south, then 33 to A/B/E area.  Was still largely concrete then, probably all covered by now.   Joint repairs on 84 had already begun, even though that road was barely a decade old in the early eighties. 
   One would need to crank up the really way back machine to find that early construction.  On 33.
There must have been ultimate plans for that road then, such as extending N of I-80 and S of the A/B/E metropolitan area.   

[jemacedo9]

Just driving 33 today, you can see the large difference in engineering standards in the section north of 512 (paved/concrete medians, older bridge structures/designs) vs the section south of 512 to US 220 (wide grass median, newer structures) vs the final extension south of US 22.

[Crown Victoria]

Update regarding PennDOT's (and the PTC's) current financial difficulties due to the pandemic:

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2020/05/12/PennDOT-Pennsylvania-Turnpike-COVID-19-push-bacck-projects-roads-bridges/stories/202005120111

(Also posted on the PA Turnpike thread)

[PHLBOS]

Question regarding signage, specifically the white/blue signage that PennDOT uses at municipal and county borders, as well as stream and river crossings. Why hasn't PennDOT gone back to using Clearview and mixed case lettering for the names? Doesn't the MUTCD say that signage should be mixed case instead of all caps?

Here is a version that uses mixed case and Clearview: https://goo.gl/maps/RJye2RQptqXBrFgs9
And a newer sign (since PennDOT has returned to Clearview) that still uses Hwy Gothic and all caps: https://goo.gl/maps/qPxRSzBRMPnNUgE9A

Just curious about the discrepancies since PennDOT makes all these signs in one central sign shop...thanks for the info.

It's worth noting that the usage of Clearview for negative contrast signs (dark letters on light background) was never intended to be applied per the Interim Approval (IA).  Those installations with Clearview, be it all-caps or mixed-case, likely date back when PennDOT wasn't quite getting the hang of how to properly (per the IA) use the font.

That said, the newer signs should still use mixed-case in Highway Gothic for the municipality names per MUTCD.  My guess is that PennDOT may have still had a surplus of blue capital letters in their sign shop that were quicker to fabricate.

[SteveG1988]

They've started the clearing of trees for the 78 bridge widening at Hamburg.

[sprjus4]

Lancaster Watchdog: Closed ramp on Route 283; determining speed limits on highways

What makes a speed limit?
The same reader wondered what causes speed limits to be different on busy highways.

"If the speed limit on (Interstate) 83 between York and Harrisburg is 65MPH, why cannot Route 30 between York and Lancaster be posted at 65 MPH?"

Both highways, while similarly busy at times, are simply running on different standards.

Speed limit determinations are based on a process rooted in "Regulatory speed limits are determined based on a standardized process that is rooted in the National Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices,"  a PennDOT representative said in a statement to Watchdog.

A PennDOT representative told Watchdog that speed limits are determined based on a standardized process rooted in the National Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices from the Federal Highway Administration. "Generally speaking, as proven by countless local, state and federal studies, drivers travel at speeds commensurate with their comfort level, regardless of the regulatory speed limit, and the road is safest when the speed limit is near the normal running speeds."

Driver comfort, according to PennDOT, is mostly affected by physical conditions such as lane width, shoulder width, horizontal/vertical curvature and type of roadside hazards.

On the Route 30 highway connecting York and Lancaster, PennDOT states the road simply "doesn't meet the criteria...Raising the speed limit may have undesirable effects and is not being considered at this time."

Am I missing something here?

I-83 (65 mph) - Jersey barrier median, no left shoulder, narrow footprint, narrow interchanges - https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1618893,-76.8261501,3a,43y,339.23h,85.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdykplNzzseE3yzL4FmoG1w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1
US-30 - (55 mph) Paved left shoulder, wide median, wide footprint, wide interchanges - https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0245667,-76.5651133,3a,40.3y,252.44h,86.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9O3djB26mnCGsUaArBgqRw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1

US-30 is built to much higher design quality and standards than I-83 is, and they claim 65 mph is okay on I-83, yet it will have "undesirable effects" and "is not being considered" for US-30?

[Crown Victoria]

Lancaster Watchdog: Closed ramp on Route 283; determining speed limits on highways

What makes a speed limit?
The same reader wondered what causes speed limits to be different on busy highways.

"If the speed limit on (Interstate) 83 between York and Harrisburg is 65MPH, why cannot Route 30 between York and Lancaster be posted at 65 MPH?"

Both highways, while similarly busy at times, are simply running on different standards.

Speed limit determinations are based on a process rooted in "Regulatory speed limits are determined based on a standardized process that is rooted in the National Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices,"  a PennDOT representative said in a statement to Watchdog.

A PennDOT representative told Watchdog that speed limits are determined based on a standardized process rooted in the National Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices from the Federal Highway Administration. "Generally speaking, as proven by countless local, state and federal studies, drivers travel at speeds commensurate with their comfort level, regardless of the regulatory speed limit, and the road is safest when the speed limit is near the normal running speeds."

Driver comfort, according to PennDOT, is mostly affected by physical conditions such as lane width, shoulder width, horizontal/vertical curvature and type of roadside hazards.

On the Route 30 highway connecting York and Lancaster, PennDOT states the road simply "doesn't meet the criteria...Raising the speed limit may have undesirable effects and is not being considered at this time."

Am I missing something here?

I-83 (65 mph) - Jersey barrier median, no left shoulder, narrow footprint, narrow interchanges - https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1618893,-76.8261501,3a,43y,339.23h,85.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdykplNzzseE3yzL4FmoG1w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1
US-30 - (55 mph) Paved left shoulder, wide median, wide footprint, wide interchanges - https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0245667,-76.5651133,3a,40.3y,252.44h,86.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9O3djB26mnCGsUaArBgqRw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1

US-30 is built to much higher design quality and standards than I-83 is, and they claim 65 mph is okay on I-83, yet it will have "undesirable effects" and "is not being considered" for US-30?

If I had to guess, it's because of the older, lower-standard sections of US 30 west of PA 24 in York County and east of Prospect Road in Lancaster County.  Those stretches have narrower shoulders and a guardrail for a median barrier.  The better-designed part of US 30 between those two could still be signed for 65 mph though.  And based on experience, actual speeds are closer to 70-75 mph the whole way anyway.  Still does not explain I-83 being 65 mph (or the NE Extension being 70 mph at similar standards).

For comparison, PA 283 is posted at 65 mph even where it has a narrower footprint until it gets close to Lancaster.  US 222 further east is Interstate standard with a wide median and is posted at 65 mph (although actual speeds are often a bit higher).

[roadman65]

And Texas would post all of these at 75 mph as their state does not discriminate, except in Greater Houston area where most freeways are 60 if you are lucky to have an open road considering that metro area growing and needs.

Heck US 59, is at 75 mph on arterial sections.

Back to PA, yes they make no sense in application of the 70 mph as I pointed out before I-80 (from GSV) still has I-80 at 65 mph between PA 115 and I-380 which is 10 miles of exit less freeway and designed for higher speed limits than most roads are.

[sprjus4]

If I had to guess, it's because of the older, lower-standard sections of US 30 west of PA 24 in York County and east of Prospect Road in Lancaster County.  Those stretches have narrower shoulders and a guardrail for a median barrier.  The better-designed part of US 30 between those two could still be signed for 65 mph though.  And based on experience, actual speeds are closer to 70-75 mph the whole way anyway.  Still does not explain I-83 being 65 mph (or the NE Extension being 70 mph at similar standards).

Between PA-24 and some exit in Lancaster, 65 mph could reasonably be posted, especially comparing to narrow segments of I-83, PA-283, I-476, and many other highways in Pennsylvania that hold 65 mph or even 70 mph limits.

For comparison, PA 283 is posted at 65 mph even where it has a narrower footprint until it gets close to Lancaster.  US 222 further east is Interstate standard with a wide median and is posted at 65 mph (although actual speeds are often a bit higher).

Correct about PA-283, this narrow segment holds 65 mph just north of Lancaster. There has to be some reason that they've not increased US-30, perhaps regarding the localities it passes through.

[sprjus4]

And Texas would post all of these at 75 mph as their state does not discriminate, except in Greater Houston area where most freeways are 60 if you are lucky to have an open road considering that metro area growing and needs.

Houston is interesting because the "green" zone that limits speed limits to 65 mph. I believe segments of I-69, I-10, and I-45 inside Loop 8 are 60 mph though. I've easily cruised down at 70 - 75 mph through there, and still was not the fastest car. In Dallas, San Antonio, Austin, or any other metro in Texas for example, the speed limit would likely be 65 or 70 mph there. In Corpus Christi, I-37 jumps to 75 mph past SH-358, only 4 miles from Downtown. I believe the remainder inside is 65 mph until the end.

Heck US 59, is at 75 mph on arterial sections.

US-59 is 75 mph on two and four lane stretches for the most part. The entire highway (US-59 and US-77) between Corpus Christi and Houston (except Refugio and Odem) is 75 mph divided non-limited-access highway with town bypasses. This applies to most two (70 or 75 mph) and four lane highways in Texas.

[Alps]

Lancaster Watchdog: Closed ramp on Route 283; determining speed limits on highways

What makes a speed limit?
The same reader wondered what causes speed limits to be different on busy highways.

"If the speed limit on (Interstate) 83 between York and Harrisburg is 65MPH, why cannot Route 30 between York and Lancaster be posted at 65 MPH?"

Both highways, while similarly busy at times, are simply running on different standards.

Speed limit determinations are based on a process rooted in "Regulatory speed limits are determined based on a standardized process that is rooted in the National Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices,"  a PennDOT representative said in a statement to Watchdog.

A PennDOT representative told Watchdog that speed limits are determined based on a standardized process rooted in the National Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices from the Federal Highway Administration. "Generally speaking, as proven by countless local, state and federal studies, drivers travel at speeds commensurate with their comfort level, regardless of the regulatory speed limit, and the road is safest when the speed limit is near the normal running speeds."

Driver comfort, according to PennDOT, is mostly affected by physical conditions such as lane width, shoulder width, horizontal/vertical curvature and type of roadside hazards.

On the Route 30 highway connecting York and Lancaster, PennDOT states the road simply "doesn't meet the criteria...Raising the speed limit may have undesirable effects and is not being considered at this time."

Am I missing something here?

I-83 (65 mph) - Jersey barrier median, no left shoulder, narrow footprint, narrow interchanges - https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1618893,-76.8261501,3a,43y,339.23h,85.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdykplNzzseE3yzL4FmoG1w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1
US-30 - (55 mph) Paved left shoulder, wide median, wide footprint, wide interchanges - https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0245667,-76.5651133,3a,40.3y,252.44h,86.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9O3djB26mnCGsUaArBgqRw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1

US-30 is built to much higher design quality and standards than I-83 is, and they claim 65 mph is okay on I-83, yet it will have "undesirable effects" and "is not being considered" for US-30?

You're missing that US 30 is a shunpike for I-76.