Pennsylvania

[sbeaver44]

Lancaster Watchdog: Closed ramp on Route 283; determining speed limits on highways

What makes a speed limit?
The same reader wondered what causes speed limits to be different on busy highways.

"If the speed limit on (Interstate) 83 between York and Harrisburg is 65MPH, why cannot Route 30 between York and Lancaster be posted at 65 MPH?"

Both highways, while similarly busy at times, are simply running on different standards.

Speed limit determinations are based on a process rooted in "Regulatory speed limits are determined based on a standardized process that is rooted in the National Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices,"  a PennDOT representative said in a statement to Watchdog.

A PennDOT representative told Watchdog that speed limits are determined based on a standardized process rooted in the National Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices from the Federal Highway Administration. "Generally speaking, as proven by countless local, state and federal studies, drivers travel at speeds commensurate with their comfort level, regardless of the regulatory speed limit, and the road is safest when the speed limit is near the normal running speeds."

Driver comfort, according to PennDOT, is mostly affected by physical conditions such as lane width, shoulder width, horizontal/vertical curvature and type of roadside hazards.

On the Route 30 highway connecting York and Lancaster, PennDOT states the road simply "doesn't meet the criteria...Raising the speed limit may have undesirable effects and is not being considered at this time."

Am I missing something here?

I-83 (65 mph) - Jersey barrier median, no left shoulder, narrow footprint, narrow interchanges - https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1618893,-76.8261501,3a,43y,339.23h,85.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdykplNzzseE3yzL4FmoG1w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1
US-30 - (55 mph) Paved left shoulder, wide median, wide footprint, wide interchanges - https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0245667,-76.5651133,3a,40.3y,252.44h,86.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9O3djB26mnCGsUaArBgqRw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1

US-30 is built to much higher design quality and standards than I-83 is, and they claim 65 mph is okay on I-83, yet it will have "undesirable effects" and "is not being considered" for US-30?

You're missing that US 30 is a shunpike for I-76.

I agree with you, but I've absolutely used PA 283 to US 30 to US 202 to shunpike, and PA 283 is mainly 65

I don't have an issue with US 30's Coatesville-Downingtown freeway being 55.

[74/171FAN]

I agree with you, but I've absolutely used PA 283 to US 30 to US 202 to shunpike, and PA 283 is mainly 65

I don't have an issue with US 30's Coatesville-Downingtown freeway being 55.

I would not mind if US 30 between PA 24 and PA 741 and on the entire Coatesville-Downingtown Bypass was raised from 55 to 60.  I still am unsure why PA does not allow for 60 mph speed limits.

Anyway, in case no one posted this a few months ago somewhere else, the preferred alternatives for the PA 10/US 30 BUS intersections and the Airport Rd interchange have been selected for the future reconstruction project for the Coatesville-Downingtown Bypass. 

[ARMOURERERIC]

Near the Us30, Pa10 intersection, I see reference to a 4 lane connector road to be built by others.  If that road is ever built, why not grade separate 30 and 10 and use that new road to provide to connection movements?

[Hwy 61 Revisited]

Near the Us30, Pa10 intersection, I see reference to a 4 lane connector road to be built by others.  If that road is ever built, why not grade separate 30 and 10 and use that new road to provide to connection movements?

Grade separation would be best if the US 30 freeway were truly build between there and Lancaster.

[roadman65]

Near the Us30, Pa10 intersection, I see reference to a 4 lane connector road to be built by others.  If that road is ever built, why not grade separate 30 and 10 and use that new road to provide to connection movements?

Grade separation would be best if the US 30 freeway were truly build between there and Lancaster.

I heard on here its virtually impossible due to local opposition preventing it.  The same who probably prevented the Goat Path from opening to traffic. 

[MASTERNC]

I agree with you, but I've absolutely used PA 283 to US 30 to US 202 to shunpike, and PA 283 is mainly 65

I don't have an issue with US 30's Coatesville-Downingtown freeway being 55.

I would not mind if US 30 between PA 24 and PA 741 and on the entire Coatesville-Downingtown Bypass was raised from 55 to 60.  I still am unsure why PA does not allow for 60 mph speed limits.

I've seen a 60 MPH construction zone speed limit in western PA

[Roadrunner75]

Near the Us30, Pa10 intersection, I see reference to a 4 lane connector road to be built by others.  If that road is ever built, why not grade separate 30 and 10 and use that new road to provide to connection movements?

Grade separation would be best if the US 30 freeway were truly build between there and Lancaster.

I heard on here its virtually impossible due to local opposition preventing it.  The same who probably prevented the Goat Path from opening to traffic.

I would say the local opposition would be Wawa, Sunoco, CVS, etc.  I hope I live to see the day that the Lancaster Bypass and the Coatesville Bypass are connected.  That stretch sorely needs it.  And while we're at it, complete a bypass to the bypass around York.

I'm pleasantly surprised that they are going with 3 lanes each direction on the eastern end of the Coatesville Bypass section.  If only they had the foresight (and money) to have built the newer Exton bypass to 6 lanes when they had the chance, we would get 6 lanes clear (mostly) to King of Prussia with the improvements to 202.

[jeffandnicole]

Near the Us30, Pa10 intersection, I see reference to a 4 lane connector road to be built by others.  If that road is ever built, why not grade separate 30 and 10 and use that new road to provide to connection movements?

Grade separation would be best if the US 30 freeway were truly build between there and Lancaster.

I heard on here its virtually impossible due to local opposition preventing it.  The same who probably prevented the Goat Path from opening to traffic.

I would say the local opposition would be Wawa, Sunoco, CVS, etc.  I hope I live to see the day that the Lancaster Bypass and the Coatesville Bypass are connected.  That stretch sorely needs it.  And while we're at it, complete a bypass to the bypass around York.

I'm pleasantly surprised that they are going with 3 lanes each direction on the eastern end of the Coatesville Bypass section.  If only they had the foresight (and money) to have built the newer Exton bypass to 6 lanes when they had the chance, we would get 6 lanes clear (mostly) to King of Prussia with the improvements to 202.

Rarely are large businesses opposed to projects like this, because the store is just one of hundreds or thousands. Corporations aren't really bothered by this stuff.  It would be the individuals owner of a business, so maybe the Sunoco owner would be opposed. But normally it's the residents of the area that are opposed to projects.

[Roadrunner75]

Near the Us30, Pa10 intersection, I see reference to a 4 lane connector road to be built by others.  If that road is ever built, why not grade separate 30 and 10 and use that new road to provide to connection movements?

Grade separation would be best if the US 30 freeway were truly build between there and Lancaster.

I heard on here its virtually impossible due to local opposition preventing it.  The same who probably prevented the Goat Path from opening to traffic.

I would say the local opposition would be Wawa, Sunoco, CVS, etc.  I hope I live to see the day that the Lancaster Bypass and the Coatesville Bypass are connected.  That stretch sorely needs it.  And while we're at it, complete a bypass to the bypass around York.

I'm pleasantly surprised that they are going with 3 lanes each direction on the eastern end of the Coatesville Bypass section.  If only they had the foresight (and money) to have built the newer Exton bypass to 6 lanes when they had the chance, we would get 6 lanes clear (mostly) to King of Prussia with the improvements to 202.

Rarely are large businesses opposed to projects like this, because the store is just one of hundreds or thousands. Corporations aren't really bothered by this stuff.  It would be the individuals owner of a business, so maybe the Sunoco owner would be opposed. But normally it's the residents of the area that are opposed to projects.

Grade separation of this particular intersection would create a big headache at least for these businesses for access and require some takings.  It's otherwise pretty rural except for this business strip centered around the intersection, but I have no doubt residential objectors will come out of the woodwork. 

The reconfiguration and new westbound lanes down at the 41 intersection in Gap is bit goofy but it seems to work.   I'll just take 4 lanes between the bypasses if I can't get full freeway.   I don't ask for much.  30 is the "retain my sanity" option when visiting the in-laws out near Gettysburg, as opposed to the mind numbingly boring / high speed deathtrap a few miles to the north.

[sprjus4]

You're missing that US 30 is a shunpike for I-76.

So that's a reason to post an artificial speed limit? It also serves regional traffic between York and Lancaster, along with York traffic bound to I-76. Should I-295 in New Jersey be 55 mph?

PA-283 and US-222 can both also be used as a shunpike of I-76, yet they're 65 mph, built to same design standards as US-30 is, even lower in some areas closer to Lancaster.

[jemacedo9]

Near the Us30, Pa10 intersection, I see reference to a 4 lane connector road to be built by others.  If that road is ever built, why not grade separate 30 and 10 and use that new road to provide to connection movements?

Grade separation would be best if the US 30 freeway were truly build between there and Lancaster.

I heard on here its virtually impossible due to local opposition preventing it.  The same who probably prevented the Goat Path from opening to traffic.

I would say the local opposition would be Wawa, Sunoco, CVS, etc.  I hope I live to see the day that the Lancaster Bypass and the Coatesville Bypass are connected.  That stretch sorely needs it.  And while we're at it, complete a bypass to the bypass around York.

I'm pleasantly surprised that they are going with 3 lanes each direction on the eastern end of the Coatesville Bypass section.  If only they had the foresight (and money) to have built the newer Exton bypass to 6 lanes when they had the chance, we would get 6 lanes clear (mostly) to King of Prussia with the improvements to 202.

Rarely are large businesses opposed to projects like this, because the store is just one of hundreds or thousands. Corporations aren't really bothered by this stuff.  It would be the individuals owner of a business, so maybe the Sunoco owner would be opposed. But normally it's the residents of the area that are opposed to projects.

The land in the path of any proposed freeway is in the heart of the Amish and Mennonite farming and tourist communities - those are the largest NIMBYs involved here.  Someone upthread mentioned the Goat Path...same general area and same issues.

[Alps]

You're missing that US 30 is a shunpike for I-76.

So that's a reason to post an artificial speed limit? It also serves regional traffic between York and Lancaster, along with York traffic bound to I-76. Should I-295 in New Jersey be 55 mph?

PA-283 and US-222 can both also be used as a shunpike of I-76, yet they're 65 mph, built to same design standards as US-30 is, even lower in some areas closer to Lancaster.

I still get the nagging feeling that 30 is 55 MPH (and patrolled) specifically so that people will stay on the Turnpike longer.

[jemacedo9]

You're missing that US 30 is a shunpike for I-76.

So that's a reason to post an artificial speed limit? It also serves regional traffic between York and Lancaster, along with York traffic bound to I-76. Should I-295 in New Jersey be 55 mph?

PA-283 and US-222 can both also be used as a shunpike of I-76, yet they're 65 mph, built to same design standards as US-30 is, even lower in some areas closer to Lancaster.

I still get the nagging feeling that 30 is 55 MPH (and patrolled) specifically so that people will stay on the Turnpike longer.

The only thing I can think of (and I don't buy it personally) is that the distance of the areas outside of the greater York and Lancaster areas (18 miles) is too short for PennDOT to want to raise to 65 MPH. 

I don't know what the shortest 65 MPH zone is in PA but probably not that short.

[Ketchup99]

US-22's freeway from 99 to Ebensburg is 14 miles and 65mph.

And I've never understood "this is too short to be X mph." 15 or so miles is ample time and space to accelerate and then decelerate. What's the concern even?

[vdeane]

Yeah, 18 miles is hardly "short" to be porking along at only 55.  Even a mile of underposted limits can feel painful to drive.  I've never understood the "it's too short" mentality.  If it's long enough to feel uncomfortably slow, it's long enough to have a higher limit.

[jeffandnicole]

US-22's freeway from 99 to Ebensburg is 14 miles and 65mph.

And I've never understood "this is too short to be X mph." 15 or so miles is ample time and space to accelerate and then decelerate. What's the concern even?

Yep.  I've seen 55 mph zones of around a mile or so in length (and probably less), so not sure why 65 mph needs so much more distance.

NJ originally said they didn't want a 65 mph zone less than 10 miles in length, although they must've relaxed that as the NJ 18 limit of 65 mph is about 7 miles in length.  It would be painful if that was only 55 mph.

[Roadrunner75]

US-22's freeway from 99 to Ebensburg is 14 miles and 65mph.

And I've never understood "this is too short to be X mph." 15 or so miles is ample time and space to accelerate and then decelerate. What's the concern even?

Yep.  I've seen 55 mph zones of around a mile or so in length (and probably less), so not sure why 65 mph needs so much more distance.

NJ originally said they didn't want a 65 mph zone less than 10 miles in length, although they must've relaxed that as the NJ 18 limit of 65 mph is about 7 miles in length.  It would be painful if that was only 55 mph.

Kutztown Bypass on 222 is less than 5 miles and posted at 65 and similar in cross-section design to 30 on the west side of the Susquehanna.

[74/171FAN]

US-22's freeway from 99 to Ebensburg is 14 miles and 65mph.

And I've never understood "this is too short to be X mph." 15 or so miles is ample time and space to accelerate and then decelerate. What's the concern even?

Yep.  I've seen 55 mph zones of around a mile or so in length (and probably less), so not sure why 65 mph needs so much more distance.

NJ originally said they didn't want a 65 mph zone less than 10 miles in length, although they must've relaxed that as the NJ 18 limit of 65 mph is about 7 miles in length.  It would be painful if that was only 55 mph.

Kutztown Bypass on 222 is less than 5 miles and posted at 65 and similar in cross-section design to 30 on the west side of the Susquehanna.

The US 460 Appomattox Bypass in Virginia is 65 mph and is less than three miles.  It seems like it almost ends before it begins westbound.

[Ketchup99]

There are plenty of short freeways that should have limits >55, especially when they connect to another freeway. Case in point: The expressway section of US-322 in State College (Mount Nittany Expressway) is only abut five miles long, but it connects to I-99 on the western end and most traffic using it also utilizes I-99. However, I-99 is 65mph, while US-322 is 55mph. Same exact type of highway. Relatively good compliance on the 65, almost no compliance on the 55. Similarly: The short bit of US-322 freeway west of I-99. 55. Prevailing speed is probably around 70 if I had to guess. The US-220 freeway stub after the southern terminus of I-99? 55, for no good reason. US-15 around Duncannon? You guessed it. The insistence of PennDOT on signing rural, short freeways connecting to another freeway at 55 makes no sense whatsoever.

[Roadsguy]

There are plenty of short freeways that should have limits >55, especially when they connect to another freeway. Case in point: The expressway section of US-322 in State College (Mount Nittany Expressway) is only abut five miles long, but it connects to I-99 on the western end and most traffic using it also utilizes I-99. However, I-99 is 65mph, while US-322 is 55mph. Same exact type of highway. Relatively good compliance on the 65, almost no compliance on the 55. Similarly: The short bit of US-322 freeway west of I-99. 55. Prevailing speed is probably around 70 if I had to guess. The US-220 freeway stub after the southern terminus of I-99? 55, for no good reason. US-15 around Duncannon? You guessed it. The insistence of PennDOT on signing rural, short freeways connecting to another freeway at 55 makes no sense whatsoever.

Even weirder is that they have posted short, rural freeways at 65 mph, including the US 6 freeway between Scranton and Carbondale, and most notably the short PA 8 freeway north of I-80, which doesn't connect to another freeway at all.

[Ketchup99]

PennDOT doesn't seem to post speed limits with much rhyme or reason. I cannot think of a rural freeway that should be posted <65 - in PA at least - but PA thinks otherwise

[webny99]

Just driving 33 today, you can see the large difference in engineering standards in the section north of 512 (paved/concrete medians, older bridge structures/designs) vs the section south of 512 to US 220 (wide grass median, newer structures) vs the final extension south of US 22.

Yes, I would say PA 33 is one of the more varying state route freeways I've been on, going from extremely wide and spacious at the southern end to narrow and winding as you get closer to Stroudsburg.

It's a fun drive, done it several times and personally prefer the northern section: it has more character, and is more fun to drive at high speeds (apparently I'm not the only that thinks so; traffic seems to usually move at around 75 despite the 55 mph limit).

[74/171FAN]

From PennDOT's Website: Lighting and Mayfly Study Underway on Route 462 Veterans Memorial (Columbia-Wrightsville) Bridge in Lancaster and York Counties

[Roadrunner75]

From PennDOT's Website: Lighting and Mayfly Study Underway on Route 462 Veterans Memorial (Columbia-Wrightsville) Bridge in Lancaster and York Counties

I've always liked this view of the bridge although GSV doesn't do it justice:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0255918,-76.5307651,3a,15y,76.42h,89.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2K2o3eYHQsaz5mqbNa9gXA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Somewhere I have some photos I took from roughly this spot that are much better.

[sbeaver44]

Just drove over it Sat night around sunset.  I really like the PA 462 bridge.

Also a fan of the PA 441 Columbia realignment/"bypass" they did a decade or so ago.