News:

Thank you for your patience during the Forum downtime while we upgraded the software. Welcome back and see this thread for some new features and other changes to the forum.

Main Menu

New post quality restrictions

Started by Scott5114, July 30, 2021, 07:22:02 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Rothman

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 04, 2021, 11:52:03 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 04, 2021, 11:51:28 PM
Seems like a ton of posts got deleted here...

Also, is it a coincidence that tolbs17 haven't logged on the forum since this thread was posted. Considering he's one of the few names that I had in mind reading it.
He told me that he's quitting.
*places bet on the quitter quitting the quitting*
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.


thspfc

When did the forum become some sort of commitment that you are obligated to use, and you choose to not log on for a while you have to officially announce that you're leaving? I know not everyone sees it that way but goodness me

Max Rockatansky

That's how the kids (adults too) roll these days on social media platforms. 

Quote from: Rothman on August 05, 2021, 06:58:44 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 04, 2021, 11:52:03 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 04, 2021, 11:51:28 PM
Seems like a ton of posts got deleted here...

Also, is it a coincidence that tolbs17 haven't logged on the forum since this thread was posted. Considering he's one of the few names that I had in mind reading it.
He told me that he's quitting.
*places bet on the quitter quitting the quitting*

Unclear if that he was referring the forum or Mary Hannah. 

Rothman

Quote from: thspfc on August 05, 2021, 09:05:08 AM
When did the forum become some sort of commitment that you are obligated to use, and you choose to not log on for a while you have to officially announce that you're leaving? I know not everyone sees it that way but goodness me
First day on the Internet?  Flouncing has been a proud tradition since ARPANET.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

1995hoo

Quote from: thspfc on August 05, 2021, 09:05:08 AM
When did the forum become some sort of commitment that you are obligated to use, and you choose to not log on for a while you have to officially announce that you're leaving? I know not everyone sees it that way but goodness me

I believe there is actually a forum rule saying not to post something saying you're leaving.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

froggie

^ That is correct...

Quote from: From the Forum GuidelinesWhat's not allowed:
  • Opening a thread announcing that you're leaving. Sorry, but no one really cares.

SkyPesos

I know a fairly well-known member wrote a long farewell post in their introduction thread about a month ago, though it's not the same thing I assume.

hbelkins

Quote from: thspfc on August 05, 2021, 09:05:08 AM
When did the forum become some sort of commitment that you are obligated to use, and you choose to not log on for a while you have to officially announce that you're leaving? I know not everyone sees it that way but goodness me

I think there's a prohibition against announcing your departure from the forum. I never really understood that, because if someone quits, they aren't going to care if they break any rules or if said departure announcement gets deleted. But people develop relationships outside the forum and as much as they have tried to in the past, the mods can't regulate behavior elsewhere. (You may remember that they tried to ban me for a Facebook post.) So if bolts71 tells roadenthusiastmillennial he's leaving through other communications channels, and roadenthusiastmillennial posts that here, how is bolts71 to blame?

I know I have been told privately by one forum regular -- someone who has contributed to the base of roadgeek knowledge for years, maintained highway construction and history websites, participated in just about every forum that has ever existed (MTR, the Yahoo groups, various Facebook groups and pages) -- that he won't be back. He got tired of getting warnings, suspensions, having posts deleted, when those who posted opinions on certain projects that were in opposition to his opinion on the projects weren't dealt with similarly. He also thinks there were other factors that may have contributed to his treatment. He certainly didn't find this forum a welcoming place; he felt he was being pushed away because of his views on roads and other things.

And I'm curious as to how an attack on another participant is defined. Is it a specific criticism of them by name? Are there certain lines or phrases that cannot be used? Are we talking about general criticisms ("h belkins is an idiot") vs. specific criticisms ("h belkins is wrong about the need for an interstate between Martinsville and Roanoke")? One of the posts that got deleted in this thread called me a libertarian. I didn't regard that as an attack. It was an incorrect assertion, but it wasn't an attack in my view.

Can we get around this by lampooning specific posts without mentioning who posted it? "SmokeOnTheWater is a clown for suggesting that I-70 doesn't serve Baltimore" might be impermissible, but "the idea that I-70 doesn't serve Baltimore is buffoonish" is OK?

These are the kinds of things one should reasonably expect to come up when open-ended guidelines such as "post quality" and "attacks" are implemented.

Quote from: SkyPesos on August 05, 2021, 09:56:34 AM
I know a fairly well-known member wrote a long farewell post in their introduction thread about a month ago, though it's not the same thing I assume.

Am I the only person who rarely reads those "new member" posts?


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

1995hoo

Quote from: hbelkins on August 05, 2021, 10:08:03 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 05, 2021, 09:56:34 AM
I know a fairly well-known member wrote a long farewell post in their introduction thread about a month ago, though it's not the same thing I assume.

Am I the only person who rarely reads those "new member" posts?

I almost never look at the "Welcome!" subforum; if I do, it's normally because a search led me there, although in the context of this thread I looked at tolbs17's introduction thread because I thought (incorrectly, it turned out) that he had posted something there about a prior sabbatical he may have taken.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

hbelkins

Quote from: 1995hoo on August 05, 2021, 10:11:26 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on August 05, 2021, 10:08:03 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 05, 2021, 09:56:34 AM
I know a fairly well-known member wrote a long farewell post in their introduction thread about a month ago, though it's not the same thing I assume.

Am I the only person who rarely reads those "new member" posts?

I almost never look at the "Welcome!" subforum; if I do, it's normally because a search led me there, although in the context of this thread I looked at tolbs17's introduction thread because I thought (incorrectly, it turned out) that he had posted something there about a prior sabbatical he may have taken.

I'm curious as to who it was as well. And since the vast majority of posts on that board had the "new" tag beside the subject lines, I didn't take the time to read each one to see.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

jakeroot

Quote from: hbelkins on August 05, 2021, 12:42:35 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 05, 2021, 10:11:26 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on August 05, 2021, 10:08:03 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 05, 2021, 09:56:34 AM
I know a fairly well-known member wrote a long farewell post in their introduction thread about a month ago, though it's not the same thing I assume.

Am I the only person who rarely reads those "new member" posts?

I almost never look at the "Welcome!" subforum; if I do, it's normally because a search led me there, although in the context of this thread I looked at tolbs17's introduction thread because I thought (incorrectly, it turned out) that he had posted something there about a prior sabbatical he may have taken.

I'm curious as to who it was as well. And since the vast majority of posts on that board had the "new" tag beside the subject lines, I didn't take the time to read each one to see.

I believe it was webny99.

kphoger

I especially look if the member doesn't say in the topic where they're from–just to see if it's anywhere near me or that I have history in.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Scott5114

Quote from: hbelkins on August 05, 2021, 10:08:03 AM
I think there's a prohibition against announcing your departure from the forum. I never really understood that, because if someone quits, they aren't going to care if they break any rules or if said departure announcement gets deleted.

Alex created our rules list by importing it from another forum that he knew the admin of, and we've modified it from there. This is one of the rules that was on the original list. As far as I know, we've never actually enforced it per se, because as you mentioned, there's really not a lot that can be done other than locking or deleting the thread. But it's there to deter drama queen exits ("you wronged me, and the admins wronged me, and this forum sucks, so I'm leaving!").

Quote from: hbelkins on August 05, 2021, 10:08:03 AM
But people develop relationships outside the forum and as much as they have tried to in the past, the mods can't regulate behavior elsewhere. (You may remember that they tried to ban me for a Facebook post.)

They didn't try to ban you for a Facebook post, they tried to ban you for advocating for actions to be taken by third parties against a member here which could have jeopardized the member's safety. The technicality that kept you from getting banned was that the place you chose to advocate for it was on Facebook.

Quote from: hbelkins on August 05, 2021, 10:08:03 AM
I know I have been told privately by one forum regular -- someone who has contributed to the base of roadgeek knowledge for years, maintained highway construction and history websites, participated in just about every forum that has ever existed (MTR, the Yahoo groups, various Facebook groups and pages) -- that he won't be back. He got tired of getting warnings, suspensions, having posts deleted, when those who posted opinions on certain projects that were in opposition to his opinion on the projects weren't dealt with similarly. He also thinks there were other factors that may have contributed to his treatment. He certainly didn't find this forum a welcoming place; he felt he was being pushed away because of his views on roads and other things.

If it's the person I'm thinking of, probably for the best–we were getting tired of issuing warnings and suspensions and deleting his posts. And posting opinions isn't what causes moderator action, it's the manner in which they're posted–if I post an opinion, someone else posts an opinion in opposition to my opinion, and then I post "You're wrong, fuckface, and also I bet you're a jaywalker" then yeah, I'm probably not going to be treated the same as the people in opposition to me. Furthermore, because we try to avoid publicly posting when individual users are specifically sanctioned to avoid undue public shaming, he has no idea what we did to the other users involved, other than the other users' say so, which they may not be truthful about.

On a personal (non-staff-decision-making) level, I found myself questioning the validity of said former user's contributions to the knowledge base due to some fantastically faulty reasoning in an off-topic thread, which was so severe that I couldn't help but take even his apparently informed takes on transportation issues with a grain of salt, since I knew he was apparently viewing the world through a warped lens. I didn't factor this into any moderation duties I performed with regards to this user, however (and another member of the mod staff was who originally brought him up as needing moderation enforcement).

Quote from: hbelkins on August 05, 2021, 10:08:03 AM
And I'm curious as to how an attack on another participant is defined. Is it a specific criticism of them by name? Are there certain lines or phrases that cannot be used? Are we talking about general criticisms ("h belkins is an idiot") vs. specific criticisms ("h belkins is wrong about the need for an interstate between Martinsville and Roanoke")? One of the posts that got deleted in this thread called me a libertarian. I didn't regard that as an attack. It was an incorrect assertion, but it wasn't an attack in my view.

Can we get around this by lampooning specific posts without mentioning who posted it? "SmokeOnTheWater is a clown for suggesting that I-70 doesn't serve Baltimore" might be impermissible, but "the idea that I-70 doesn't serve Baltimore is buffoonish" is OK?

This is incredibly simple. Presenting arguments against people's ideas is okay ("h belkins is wrong about the need for an interstate between Martinsville and Roanoke, because..."). Calling someone names ("h belkins is an idiot", "SmokeOnTheWater is a clown for suggesting that I-70 doesn't serve Baltimore") is not.

Calling an idea "buffoonish" is on thin ice because the person who posted that idea may take that as you calling them buffoonish. The better thing to do is to illustrate the facts of the matter in such a way that anyone reading your post would come to the conclusion themselves that the idea is buffoonish.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

kphoger

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 05, 2021, 01:00:23 PM
They didn't try to ban you for a Facebook post, they tried to ban you for advocating for actions to be taken by third parties against a member here which could have jeopardized the member's safety. The technicality that kept you from getting banned was that the place you chose to advocate for it was on Facebook.

That makes no sense to me.  You said it wasn't because of a Facebook post, and then right after that you said it was because of a Facebook post.

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 05, 2021, 01:00:23 PM
This is incredibly simple. Presenting arguments against people's ideas is okay ("h belkins is wrong about the need for an interstate between Martinsville and Roanoke, because..."). Calling someone names ("h belkins is an idiot", "SmokeOnTheWater is a clown for suggesting that I-70 doesn't serve Baltimore") is not.

And don't call anybody one of those building features that exist between stories.  That would be less cool than pooing.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

SectorZ

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 05, 2021, 01:00:23 PM
This is incredibly simple. Presenting arguments against people's ideas is okay ("h belkins is wrong about the need for an interstate between Martinsville and Roanoke, because..."). Calling someone names ("h belkins is an idiot", "SmokeOnTheWater is a clown for suggesting that I-70 doesn't serve Baltimore") is not.

I saw what you did there...

hotdogPi

Most people who announce they're leaving don't actually leave.

Scott5114, calling H. B. Elkins "Belkins" while already knowing that's not his name is by itself an insult.
Clinched

Traveled, plus
US 13, 44, 50
MA 22, 35, 40, 107, 109, 126, 141, 159
NH 27, 111A(E); CA 133; NY 366; GA 42, 140; FL A1A, 7; CT 32; VT 2A, 5A; PA 3, 51, 60, QC 162, 165, 263; 🇬🇧A100, A3211, A3213, A3215, A4222; 🇫🇷95 D316

Lowest untraveled: 25 (expected 36 on June 25)

Scott5114

#66
Quote from: kphoger on August 05, 2021, 01:10:19 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 05, 2021, 01:00:23 PM
They didn't try to ban you for a Facebook post, they tried to ban you for advocating for actions to be taken by third parties against a member here which could have jeopardized the member's safety. The technicality that kept you from getting banned was that the place you chose to advocate for it was on Facebook.

That makes no sense to me.  You said it wasn't because of a Facebook post, and then right after that you said it was because of a Facebook post.

Him posting on Facebook wasn't the issue. He can post on Facebook all he likes. It was what he advocated for, against a member here, because of the member's actions here, that caused an issue.

Quote from: SectorZ on August 05, 2021, 01:13:03 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 05, 2021, 01:00:23 PM
This is incredibly simple. Presenting arguments against people's ideas is okay ("h belkins is wrong about the need for an interstate between Martinsville and Roanoke, because..."). Calling someone names ("h belkins is an idiot", "SmokeOnTheWater is a clown for suggesting that I-70 doesn't serve Baltimore") is not.

I saw what you did there...

Use the examples H.B. did in the post of his I was replying to?
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

kphoger

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 05, 2021, 01:17:14 PM
Him posting on Facebook wasn't the issue. He can post on Facebook all he likes. It was what he advocated for, against a member here, because of the member's actions here, that caused an issue.

Without the Facebook post, he would not have been in jeopardy of a ban on AARoads.  Therefore, it was because of a Facebook post that he was in jeopardy of a ban on AARoads.  I don't see any cracks in that logic.

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 05, 2021, 01:00:23 PM
h belkins

Quote from: SectorZ on August 05, 2021, 01:13:03 PM
I saw what you did there...

* kphoger a.k.a. Mr Phoger does too.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Scott5114

Quote from: kphoger on August 05, 2021, 01:42:14 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 05, 2021, 01:17:14 PM
Him posting on Facebook wasn't the issue. He can post on Facebook all he likes. It was what he advocated for, against a member here, because of the member's actions here, that caused an issue.

Without the Facebook post, he would not have been in jeopardy of a ban on AARoads.  Therefore, it was because of a Facebook post that he was in jeopardy of a ban on AARoads.  I don't see any cracks in that logic.

It was because of the content of the post that he was in jeopardy of a ban, not because of its wrapper of being contained within a Facebook post. The Facebook post wrapper was why he was not banned.

Quote from: kphoger on August 05, 2021, 01:42:14 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 05, 2021, 01:00:23 PM
h belkins

Quote from: SectorZ on August 05, 2021, 01:13:03 PM
I saw what you did there...

* kphoger a.k.a. Mr Phoger does too.

I did nothing.

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 05, 2021, 01:00:23 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on August 05, 2021, 10:08:03 AM
And I'm curious as to how an attack on another participant is defined. [...] Are we talking about general criticisms ("h belkins is an idiot") vs. specific criticisms ("h belkins is wrong about the need for an interstate between Martinsville and Roanoke")? [...] "SmokeOnTheWater is a clown for suggesting that I-70 doesn't serve Baltimore" might be impermissible, but "the idea that I-70 doesn't serve Baltimore is buffoonish" is OK?

This is incredibly simple. Presenting arguments against people's ideas is okay ("h belkins is wrong about the need for an interstate between Martinsville and Roanoke, because..."). Calling someone names ("h belkins is an idiot", "SmokeOnTheWater is a clown for suggesting that I-70 doesn't serve Baltimore") is not.

Y'all, I'm having to write my posts in an external editor because the post box isn't big enough to get all the quoting right.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: 1 on August 05, 2021, 01:16:19 PM
Most people who announce they're leaving don't actually leave.
.

That's just a cry for attention.  People do that in all facets of life to get attention when they feel they have been wrong or are unwanted.  Example; I dated a woman who for close to four years who would often resort to that tactic of "announcing she was leaving"  for whatever reason when we had a disagreement.  There was a substantial difference from that tactic to when she actual pulled up stakes and left. 

If anything not saying anything and pulling up stakes is much more of an impactful statement.

kphoger

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 05, 2021, 01:50:35 PM
It was because of the content of the post that he was in jeopardy of a ban, not because of its wrapper of being contained within a Facebook post.

Well yeah, of course.  Obviously AARoads members are allowed to post on Facebook.  But "the content of a Facebook post" is "a Facebook post".  Differentiating between the two requires a nit picker of unprecedented pedantry.

This statement is ridiculous:  You were almost banned because of what you posted on Facebook, but it wasn't because of your Facebook post that you were almost banned.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

kphoger

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 05, 2021, 01:54:48 PM

Quote from: 1 on August 05, 2021, 01:16:19 PM
Most people who announce they're leaving don't actually leave.

That's just a cry for attention.  People do that in all facets of life to get attention when they feel they have been wrong or are unwanted.  Example; I dated a woman who for close to four years who would often resort to that tactic of "announcing she was leaving"  for whatever reason when we had a disagreement.  There was a substantial difference from that tactic to when she actual pulled up stakes and left. 

If anything not saying anything and pulling up stakes is much more of an impactful statement.

My six-year-old likes to say "Fine!" before stomping off to his room when he doesn't get what he wants.  There's little difference.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Scott5114

Quote from: kphoger on August 05, 2021, 01:59:49 PM
nit picker of unprecedented pedantry

This line is damn near Shakespeare.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

kphoger

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 05, 2021, 02:04:26 PM

Quote from: kphoger on August 05, 2021, 01:59:49 PM
nit picker of unprecedented pedantry

This line is damn near Shakespeare.

When I typed it, I also fully expected you to wear it on your shirt as a badge.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Scott5114

Quote from: kphoger on August 05, 2021, 02:11:58 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 05, 2021, 02:04:26 PM

Quote from: kphoger on August 05, 2021, 01:59:49 PM
nit picker of unprecedented pedantry

This line is damn near Shakespeare.

When I typed it, I also fully expected you to wear it on your shirt as a badge.

I am now. :sombrero:
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.