AARoads Forum

I loathe the cold. And from any rational viewpoint, you should too. It's expensive, bringing lots of problems that have no equivalent on the side of heat. I call it the "Frost Tax". Here's what it consists of:

-The Cost of Snow Removal
-The Cost of Warm Clothing
-The Cost of Natural Gas and Heating Oil
-The Cost of Snow Tires
-The Cost of Vehicles with All Wheel Drive
-The Cost of Engineering buildings to withstand the weight of snow
-Damage to highways by freeze thaw cycles
-Water pollution from road salt
-Closure of schools and businesses by snowstorms
-Disruption of airport operations by snowstorms
-Deaths from Hypothermia
-Car accidents from black ice
-Injuries from slipping on ice
-Seasonality of agriculture, construction, and tourism

We all pay the frost tax in obscure ways. Last week, in anticipation of a major snowstorm, I pulled my wipers away from my windshield, and in the process I stripped one of them. Getting a new one cost $70 and due to the post office's current problems, it's days late, so I've been driving with one wiper.

Maybe climate change isn't so bad.

Snowfall helps to fill the water supply back up in the Great Lakes and other lakes, and of course snow up in the Rockies later melts and flows down the mountains to be water supplies, also

The Freeze-Thaw cycle is important to our way of life

Quote from: ilpt4u on December 27, 2020, 12:22:04 AM
Snowfall helps to fill the water supply back up in the Great Lakes and other lakes, and of course snow up in the Rockies later melts and flows down the mountains to be water supplies, also

The Freeze-Thaw cycle is important to our way of life

Florida does just fine without them.

Why do all the animals hibernate or migrate, and why do all the trees shed their leaves in the winter rather than the summer?

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 12:18:52 AM
I loathe the cold. And from any rational viewpoint, you should too.

Well, that settles that.  :-D

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on December 27, 2020, 01:18:37 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 12:18:52 AM
I loathe the cold. And from any rational viewpoint, you should too.

Well, that settles that.  :-D

I think we should put a tax on ice skates and ski equipment to fund snow removal so that the twerps who claim to love cold winters can put their money where their mouth is.

Just about everywhere in the US west of the 100th meridian depends on a winter's worth of mountain snowpack for water. So we don't complain when it snows.

Summer heat is no walk in the park, either. Heat is the #1 weather-related killer every year in the US. People are more likely to recreate outside in summer and get injured doing so. Air conditioning is expensive - and get enough people to run their a/c during a big heat wave, and you might overwhelm the local electrical grids. Hot weather often causes roads to buckle and makes tires more likely to burst. I could go on...

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 12:18:52 AM
In anticipation of a major snowstorm, I pulled my wipers away from my windshield, and in the process I stripped one of them. Getting a new one cost $70 and due to the post office's current problems, it's days late, so I've been driving with one wiper.

How did you manage this? It's literally a 2 second process to pull it away from the windshield. I will bet you may be alone in being the only person to destroy their wiper arm *before* it got icy.

Where I live (and where you live), there needs to be a significant amount of snow to close schools and businesses. In Atlanta, any snow at all, or even the forecast saying snow when there isn't any, will cause everything to shut down. We're no worse off than they are in this regard.

There's never going to be another school snow day again.  It will just be remote learning.

And as the cost to heat my house in the winter goes up, the cost to cool it in the summer goes down.  The electric and gas bills even themselves out over the course of a year.

Quote from: GaryV on December 27, 2020, 07:12:37 AM
There's never going to be another school snow day again.  It will just be remote learning.

Any storm that causes power outages will be an actual snow day.

It may be a good idea to assemble everyone in Florida. Then a single Category 5 can take care of all the issues at once

Don't forget the economic and health damages from road salt, because no one even wants to consider an alternative. That's my biggest problem with winter, and it's not even winter's fault, it's humanity's.

And by "health effects", I'll speak of the air quality alerts that pop up in the Conn. River valley and Cheshire County NH periodically in the winter when it's been dry for a while after a large snow storm, and that salt starts becoming routinely kicked up. The tasty fog in the valleys is just awesome.

Quote from: SectorZ on December 27, 2020, 07:48:53 AM
Don't forget the economic and health damages from road salt, because no one even wants to consider an alternative. That's my biggest problem with winter, and it's not even winter's fault, it's humanity's.

And by "health effects", I'll speak of the air quality alerts that pop up in the Conn. River valley and Cheshire County NH periodically in the winter when it's been dry for a while after a large snow storm, and that salt starts becoming routinely kicked up. The tasty fog in the valleys is just awesome.

Salt may be an endangered species, fortunately. We just have an article in a local newspaper how salt standard was supposed to be eased for 1 season only for Lake Placid olympics, but that became a new normal.
While definitely a problem for steel and vegetation, health effects are much less clear. Actually US approach to salt is yet another example of junky science.

Quote from: SectorZ on December 27, 2020, 07:48:53 AM
Don't forget the economic and health damages from road salt, because no one even wants to consider an alternative. That's my biggest problem with winter, and it's not even winter's fault, it's humanity's.

And by "health effects", I'll speak of the air quality alerts that pop up in the Conn. River valley and Cheshire County NH periodically in the winter when it's been dry for a while after a large snow storm, and that salt starts becoming routinely kicked up. The tasty fog in the valleys is just awesome.

Is there anything as effective as road salt that's better for the environment? And if there is, where was it in the 70s when several highways in New England were cancelled for fear of contaminating water supplies with road salt.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 08:31:01 AM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 27, 2020, 07:48:53 AM
Don't forget the economic and health damages from road salt, because no one even wants to consider an alternative. That's my biggest problem with winter, and it's not even winter's fault, it's humanity's.

And by "health effects", I'll speak of the air quality alerts that pop up in the Conn. River valley and Cheshire County NH periodically in the winter when it's been dry for a while after a large snow storm, and that salt starts becoming routinely kicked up. The tasty fog in the valleys is just awesome.

Is there anything as effective as road salt that's better for the environment? And if there is, where was it in the 70s when several highways in New England were cancelled for fear of contaminating water supplies with road salt.

The other option is to make sure it never gets below freezing. Maybe heated pavement? The 59° rain we had a few days ago melted almost all the snow, but I don't think it would be possible to do anything similar manmade.

Now that I think about it, for small amounts (3 inches or less), making sure it remains snow and doesn't turn to ice is an option, but I don't know of any ways to do that.

Quote from: 1 on December 27, 2020, 08:59:13 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 08:31:01 AM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 27, 2020, 07:48:53 AM
Don't forget the economic and health damages from road salt, because no one even wants to consider an alternative. That's my biggest problem with winter, and it's not even winter's fault, it's humanity's.

And by "health effects", I'll speak of the air quality alerts that pop up in the Conn. River valley and Cheshire County NH periodically in the winter when it's been dry for a while after a large snow storm, and that salt starts becoming routinely kicked up. The tasty fog in the valleys is just awesome.

Is there anything as effective as road salt that's better for the environment? And if there is, where was it in the 70s when several highways in New England were cancelled for fear of contaminating water supplies with road salt.

The other option is to make sure it never gets below freezing. Maybe heated pavement? The 59° rain we had a few days ago melted almost all the snow, but I don't think it would be possible to do anything similar manmade.

Now that I think about it, for small amounts (3 inches or less), making sure it remains snow and doesn't turn to ice is an option, but I don't know of any ways to do that.

That would be wicked expensive. One town in Canada found that the electricity used by such a system would cost 20 times more (https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/news/canada/updated-heated-sidewalks-in-st-johns-would-cost-20-times-more-than-snowclearing-report-408986/) than shoveling it. I believe solar power will make electricity much, much cheaper, but towns shouldn't plan based on my speculations.

Quote from: GaryV on December 27, 2020, 07:12:37 AM
There's never going to be another school snow day again.  It will just be remote learning.

....

One of the counties here (Jefferson County, WV) declared a snow day recently. The superintendent said kids should get to be kids and go out and have fun in the snow. Good for that superintendent.

One reason I've heard for some school systems possibly continuing with snow days is that in some places, the teachers teach from the school even if the students are remote. If it's deemed unsafe for the teachers to drive to school, that might be a reason for a snow day.

Quote from: 1995hoo on December 27, 2020, 09:10:56 AM

Quote from: GaryV on December 27, 2020, 07:12:37 AM
There's never going to be another school snow day again.  It will just be remote learning.

....

One of the counties here (Jefferson County, WV) declared a snow day recently. The superintendent said kids should get to be kids and go out and have fun in the snow. Good for that superintendent.

One reason I've heard for some school systems possibly continuing with snow days is that in some places, the teachers teach from the school even if the students are remote. If it's deemed unsafe for the teachers to drive to school, that might be a reason for a snow day.

I would prefer a longer summer vacation.

Quote from: US 89 on December 27, 2020, 01:42:18 AM
Just about everywhere in the US west of the 100th meridian depends on a winter's worth of mountain snowpack for water. So we don't complain when it snows.

Summer heat is no walk in the park, either. Heat is the #1 weather-related killer every year in the US. People are more likely to recreate outside in summer and get injured doing so. Air conditioning is expensive - and get enough people to run their a/c during a big heat wave, and you might overwhelm the local electrical grids. Hot weather often causes roads to buckle and makes tires more likely to burst. I could go on...

No it's not, 17 times more deaths (https://www.treehugger.com/cold-deadlier-heat-4855696) are caused by extreme cold than heat

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 27, 2020, 01:54:10 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 12:18:52 AM
In anticipation of a major snowstorm, I pulled my wipers away from my windshield, and in the process I stripped one of them. Getting a new one cost $70 and due to the post office's current problems, it's days late, so I've been driving with one wiper.

How did you manage this? It's literally a 2 second process to pull it away from the windshield. I will bet you may be alone in being the only person to destroy their wiper arm *before* it got icy.

My car returns its wipers to under the windshield whenever I turn it off and when I tried to pull it up, it wouldn't budge.

Just in case you aren't aware:

QuoteAvoid posting multiple times in a row. Posts may be edited by the original author at any time. Multiple posts may be merged into one by the moderators at their discretion.

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=992.0

Actually I rather like the cold.  I have to use way less water while distance running, cycling, or hiking.  Given most regular folks prefer warm conditions they usually stay at home which provided me with quieter locales to travel to. 

OP seems to be forgetting about the "heat tax" that was much more severe before the advent of air conditioning. There are plenty of natural ways to heat a space, you can use a wood stove or a fireplace. There are few natural ways to make a place like Florida remotely bearable in the summer. Old Southern architecture is a testament to the many ways that people tried to keep those places cool. A lot of the things that make "nice weather" places bearable are there because of technology and terraforming by humans. Get rid of even air conditioning and no one thinks of Miami as a "nice weather" place.

There are also the environmental hazards that these places used to present. Warm and muggy places, such as Florida, had to deal with malaria and other diseases that were rampant in hot, swampy environments. Malaria was even a threat in DC and a real worry for early occupants of the White House. Places like Arizona had to deal with a lack of water, which again is also bad. The only reason that humans can live in these places is because of us draining the swamps in Florida and the greater South, diverting water resources in the Southwest, and the widespread use of air conditioning.

The heat tax is pretty severe on the surrounding environment.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 27, 2020, 09:35:00 AM
Actually I rather like the cold.  I have to use way less water while distance running, cycling, or hiking.  Given most regular folks prefer warm conditions they usually stay at home which provided me with quieter locales to travel to.

You live in California, what you consider cold is not cold.

And let us not forget about the tens of millions of Americans who have been displaced by the unbearable winters in the North.
(https://i.imgur.com/pgQ5ZqX.jpg)
Parked cars buried by snow in New York City, 1947
(https://i.imgur.com/9sY9298.jpg)
Children play after a record setting blizzard in Chicago, 1967
(https://i.imgur.com/HNmdPd9.jpg)
Cars abandoned on Route 128 near Boston after Nor'Easter, 1978

And faced with such uninhabitable conditions, Americans moved south by the trainload.
(https://i.imgur.com/eLm1ERC.jpg)
Los Angeles, 1950s
(https://i.imgur.com/cmIuhJT.jpg)
Phoenix, 1950s
(https://i.imgur.com/29LfiJx.jpg)
Miami, 1970s

The migration to the sunbelt, started in earnest after World War II with the arrival of air conditioning, may be one of the largest peacetime non-coerced movements of people in human history.

In 1950, of the top 10 largest cities in America, there was only one sun belt entrant, Los Angeles at #4. By 2010, LA had moved up to #2 and was joined by Houston, Phoenix, San Antonio, San Jose, San Diego, and Dallas. For over 150 years, New York was our largest state, but it fell behind 3 sun belt states, first California in 1962, then Texas in 1994, and Florida in 2014.

In 1950, 55% of Americans lived in the Northeast or Midwest (https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=zclK), but today it's just 38%, a difference of 56 million. 56 million climate refugees.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 09:43:22 AM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 27, 2020, 09:35:00 AM
Actually I rather like the cold.  I have to use way less water while distance running, cycling, or hiking.  Given most regular folks prefer warm conditions they usually stay at home which provided me with quieter locales to travel to.

You live in California, what you consider cold is not cold.

I run every morning before sunrise in the winter when it averages a typical 28-37F.  I also go places like Yosemite on the regular where I can fully assure you that it is often below freezing. 

Regarding your supposed Frost Tax I do obviously have cold weather clothes and hiking gear.  I also have an all wheel drive car, winter coded tires, and snow chains for winter driving conditions.   All of those items are one time costs and fairly nominal.  I'd wager that the cost is far offset by not having to blast an air conditioner in summer months like many people do to the tune of $300-$400 a month in desert/sub-tropical climates.

Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 27, 2020, 09:38:04 AM
OP seems to be forgetting about the "heat tax" that was much more severe before the advent of air conditioning. There are plenty of natural ways to heat a space, you can use a wood stove or a fireplace. There are few natural ways to make a place like Florida remotely bearable in the summer. Old Southern architecture is a testament to the many ways that people tried to keep those places cool. A lot of the things that make "nice weather" places bearable are there because of technology and terraforming by humans. Get rid of even air conditioning and no one thinks of Miami as a "nice weather" place.

There are also the environmental hazards that these places used to present. Warm and muggy places, such as Florida, had to deal with malaria and other diseases that were rampant in hot, swampy environments. Malaria was even a threat in DC and a real worry for early occupants of the White House. Places like Arizona had to deal with a lack of water, which again is also bad. The only reason that humans can live in these places is because of us draining the swamps in Florida and the greater South, diverting water resources in the Southwest, and the widespread use of air conditioning.

The heat tax is pretty severe on the surrounding environment.

Also, in relative terms, the frost tax has become more severe. Horses and buggies were able to handle dirt roads even with several inches of snow. But automobiles, because they go so much faster, need paved roads and will lose control on even a small amount of snow or ice. And airplanes need ice free runways. So snow removal and freeze thaw damage to asphalt has become much more of a problem.

So thanks to our technology, the optimal temperature for human civilization has risen substantially to about 68-72 degrees fahrenheit.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 08:31:01 AM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 27, 2020, 07:48:53 AM
Don't forget the economic and health damages from road salt, because no one even wants to consider an alternative. That's my biggest problem with winter, and it's not even winter's fault, it's humanity's.

And by "health effects", I'll speak of the air quality alerts that pop up in the Conn. River valley and Cheshire County NH periodically in the winter when it's been dry for a while after a large snow storm, and that salt starts becoming routinely kicked up. The tasty fog in the valleys is just awesome.

Is there anything as effective as road salt that's better for the environment? And if there is, where was it in the 70s when several highways in New England were cancelled for fear of contaminating water supplies with road salt.

A few things...
1. Less salt. There is definitely a substance abuse here. Wiser application, such as spraying brine on pavement before the snowfall, is also a part of the equation. Chunks of salt seating on the road for a while don't speak efficiency.
2. Snow tires. Maybe not an easy opinion logistics wise. Lower speed. I definitely want the nearby interstate to be black ASAP after the storm, but my side street can go down to 15 MPH for some time. Interstates and arterials may be a fraction of overall lane-miles. I don't know if wheel chains and tyre studs would be a net benefit, but that is another point to consider.
3. Sand/gravel on the road may be not the best idea, but may work as well in certain areas

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 27, 2020, 09:51:49 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 09:43:22 AM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 27, 2020, 09:35:00 AM
Actually I rather like the cold.  I have to use way less water while distance running, cycling, or hiking.  Given most regular folks prefer warm conditions they usually stay at home which provided me with quieter locales to travel to.

You live in California, what you consider cold is not cold.

I run every morning before sunrise in the winter when it averages a typical 28-37F.  I also go places like Yosemite on the regular where I can fully assure you that it is often below freezing. 

Regarding your supposed Frost Tax I do obviously have cold weather clothes and hiking gear.  I also have an all wheel drive car, winter coded tires, and snow chains for winter driving conditions.   All of those items are one time costs and fairly nominal.  I'd wager that the cost is far offset by not having to blast an air conditioner in summer months like many people do to the tune of $300-$400 a month in desert/sub-tropical climates.

The average temperature here in Massachusetts is about 51 degrees Fahrenheit. Since optimal temperature is 70 degrees, that means we Bay Staters use a lot more energy for heating than cooling. And we haven't gotten into the cost of damage to the roads by freeze thaw cycles which should be of concern to members of this forum.

Quote from: kalvado on December 27, 2020, 10:05:09 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 08:31:01 AM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 27, 2020, 07:48:53 AM
Don't forget the economic and health damages from road salt, because no one even wants to consider an alternative. That's my biggest problem with winter, and it's not even winter's fault, it's humanity's.

And by "health effects", I'll speak of the air quality alerts that pop up in the Conn. River valley and Cheshire County NH periodically in the winter when it's been dry for a while after a large snow storm, and that salt starts becoming routinely kicked up. The tasty fog in the valleys is just awesome.

Is there anything as effective as road salt that's better for the environment? And if there is, where was it in the 70s when several highways in New England were cancelled for fear of contaminating water supplies with road salt.

A few things...
1. Less salt. There is definitely a substance abuse here. Wiser application, such as spraying brine on pavement before the snowfall, is also a part of the equation. Chunks of salt seating on the road for a while don't speak efficiency.
2. Snow tires. Maybe not an easy opinion logistics wise. Lower speed. I definitely want the nearby interstate to be black ASAP after the storm, but my side street can go down to 15 MPH for some time. Interstates and arterials may be a fraction of overall lane-miles. I don't know if wheel chains and tyre studs would be a net benefit, but that is another point to consider.
3. Sand/gravel on the road may be not the best idea, but may work as well in certain areas

Exactly, road salt may be terrible for the environment, but it is the best way to keep the roads from getting slippery.

They have developed an asphalt additive that has its own de-icing properties though (https://www.worldhighways.com/wh6/feature/new-additive-self-de-icing-asphalt-mixture-roads-winter).

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 10:06:16 AM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 27, 2020, 09:51:49 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 09:43:22 AM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 27, 2020, 09:35:00 AM
Actually I rather like the cold.  I have to use way less water while distance running, cycling, or hiking.  Given most regular folks prefer warm conditions they usually stay at home which provided me with quieter locales to travel to.

You live in California, what you consider cold is not cold.

I run every morning before sunrise in the winter when it averages a typical 28-37F.  I also go places like Yosemite on the regular where I can fully assure you that it is often below freezing. 

Regarding your supposed Frost Tax I do obviously have cold weather clothes and hiking gear.  I also have an all wheel drive car, winter coded tires, and snow chains for winter driving conditions.   All of those items are one time costs and fairly nominal.  I'd wager that the cost is far offset by not having to blast an air conditioner in summer months like many people do to the tune of $300-$400 a month in desert/sub-tropical climates.

The average temperature here in Massachusetts is about 51 degrees Fahrenheit. Since optimal temperature is 70 degrees, that means we Bay Staters use a lot more energy for heating than cooling. And we haven't gotten into the cost of damage to the roads by freeze thaw cycles which should be of concern to members of this forum.

It will be warmer inside the residential building than outside. 100 watts of physiological heat per person is not a small change. Things like lighting, cooking, electronics - are all sources of heat.  And cost-wise, ol'good flame is much cheaper technology compared to power station turbine, which is a must for AC.
UV of more direct sun is a different subject we don't think too much of in northeast. Organic materials - including tar - are definitely affected; and softening of darker roads under the sun is another real thing.

It is difficult  to find ideal climate. Midway islands would definitely be up there in the list, if not for commuting and communication  issues..

Quote from: kalvado on December 27, 2020, 10:13:16 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 10:06:16 AM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 27, 2020, 09:51:49 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 09:43:22 AM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 27, 2020, 09:35:00 AM
Actually I rather like the cold.  I have to use way less water while distance running, cycling, or hiking.  Given most regular folks prefer warm conditions they usually stay at home which provided me with quieter locales to travel to.

You live in California, what you consider cold is not cold.

I run every morning before sunrise in the winter when it averages a typical 28-37F.  I also go places like Yosemite on the regular where I can fully assure you that it is often below freezing. 

Regarding your supposed Frost Tax I do obviously have cold weather clothes and hiking gear.  I also have an all wheel drive car, winter coded tires, and snow chains for winter driving conditions.   All of those items are one time costs and fairly nominal.  I'd wager that the cost is far offset by not having to blast an air conditioner in summer months like many people do to the tune of $300-$400 a month in desert/sub-tropical climates.

The average temperature here in Massachusetts is about 51 degrees Fahrenheit. Since optimal temperature is 70 degrees, that means we Bay Staters use a lot more energy for heating than cooling. And we haven't gotten into the cost of damage to the roads by freeze thaw cycles which should be of concern to members of this forum.

It will be warmer inside the residential building than outside. 100 watts of physiological heat per person is not a small change. Things like lighting, cooking, electronics - are all sources of heat.  And cost-wise, ol'good flame is much cheaper technology compared to power station turbine, which is a must for AC.
UV of more direct sun is a different subject we don't think too much of in northeast. Organic materials - including tar - are definitely affected; and softening of darker roads under the sun is another real thing.

It is difficult  to find ideal climate. Midway islands would definitely be up there in the list, if not for commuting and communication  issues..

I think Southern California has the best weather in the world.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 10:08:44 AM

They have developed an asphalt additive that has its own de-icing properties though (https://www.worldhighways.com/wh6/feature/new-additive-self-de-icing-asphalt-mixture-roads-winter).

Which is asphalt impregnated with salt, which is released for a few months after paving. Make sure to repave next fall.

Quote from: kalvado on December 27, 2020, 10:13:16 AM
It is difficult  to find ideal climate. Midway islands would definitely be up there in the list, if not for commuting and communication  issues..

I identified in a previous thread Port Angeles, WA. Mild temperatures, but not as much rain as Seattle. The only two disadvantages are high earthquake risk and that when they do get snow (which is rare), they aren't prepared.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 10:14:30 AM
I think Southern California has the best weather in the world.

Weather, yes. Climate, drought is a major issue.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 09:50:01 AM
And let us not forget about the tens of millions of Americans who have been displaced by the unbearable winters in the North...

In 1950, 55% of Americans lived in the Northeast or Midwest (https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=zclK), but today it's just 38%, a difference of 56 million. 56 million climate refugees.

"Displaced"? You make our winters sound worse than Hurricane Katrina. They can be a drag, but are by no means "unbearable". If not for air conditioning, summers in the South would be worse.

And there aren't 56 million "climate refugees", or even close to that number. You're assuming people moving south is the only reason for the shift, but that's not true. Not only is the entire population still growing (56 million today does not equal 56 million in 1950), natural population growth is faster in the South, and you've got international migration to consider as well.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 10:14:30 AM

Quote from: kalvado on December 27, 2020, 10:13:16 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 10:06:16 AM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 27, 2020, 09:51:49 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 09:43:22 AM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 27, 2020, 09:35:00 AM
Actually I rather like the cold.  I have to use way less water while distance running, cycling, or hiking.  Given most regular folks prefer warm conditions they usually stay at home which provided me with quieter locales to travel to.

You live in California, what you consider cold is not cold.

I run every morning before sunrise in the winter when it averages a typical 28-37F.  I also go places like Yosemite on the regular where I can fully assure you that it is often below freezing. 

Regarding your supposed Frost Tax I do obviously have cold weather clothes and hiking gear.  I also have an all wheel drive car, winter coded tires, and snow chains for winter driving conditions.   All of those items are one time costs and fairly nominal.  I'd wager that the cost is far offset by not having to blast an air conditioner in summer months like many people do to the tune of $300-$400 a month in desert/sub-tropical climates.

The average temperature here in Massachusetts is about 51 degrees Fahrenheit. Since optimal temperature is 70 degrees, that means we Bay Staters use a lot more energy for heating than cooling. And we haven't gotten into the cost of damage to the roads by freeze thaw cycles which should be of concern to members of this forum.

It will be warmer inside the residential building than outside. 100 watts of physiological heat per person is not a small change. Things like lighting, cooking, electronics - are all sources of heat.  And cost-wise, ol'good flame is much cheaper technology compared to power station turbine, which is a must for AC.
UV of more direct sun is a different subject we don't think too much of in northeast. Organic materials - including tar - are definitely affected; and softening of darker roads under the sun is another real thing.

It is difficult  to find ideal climate. Midway islands would definitely be up there in the list, if not for commuting and communication  issues..

I think Southern California has the best weather in the world.

It's less than ideal when you have Air Quality Index's in the summer ranging from 150-450 due to wild fires.  That's wild fire issue is not exclusive to California either, that was a similar phenomenon in the Phoenix Area as well when I lived there.  I also think that you're under the mistaken perception that all of California resembles San Fernando Valley in terms of climate.  The example I have above regarding where I live is San Joaquin Valley.  It is far colder here in the winter than the Los Angeles Metro Area in the winter courtesy of sinking cold air from the Sierra Nevada Mountains (see Tule Fog for an example).  In the summer it is often hotter and resembles a desert with temperatures regularly over 100F. 

Kind of curious, if you hate winter so much, why stay in Massaschusetts?

I dislike the winter, but I've never decided to make a list of why it sucks in an effort to argue for, what I can only assume, is some quest to geo-engineer winter out of the climate. My beef, as stated earlier, is how the government reacts to it, which is (theoretically) resolvable.

Quote from: SectorZ on December 27, 2020, 10:58:37 AM
Kind of curious, if you hate winter so much, why stay in Massaschusetts?

I dislike the winter, but I've never decided to make a list of why it sucks in an effort to argue for, what I can only assume, is some quest to geo-engineer winter out of the climate. My beef, as stated earlier, is how the government reacts to it, which is (theoretically) resolvable.

I'm 23 years old and have struggled to find permanent employment since I graduated from college so I can't move out of my parent's house which is in Massachusetts. And there's lots to like about this state, with its forests, its strong knowledge economy, and its progressive values.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 11:05:07 AM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 27, 2020, 10:58:37 AM
Kind of curious, if you hate winter so much, why stay in Massaschusetts?

I dislike the winter, but I've never decided to make a list of why it sucks in an effort to argue for, what I can only assume, is some quest to geo-engineer winter out of the climate. My beef, as stated earlier, is how the government reacts to it, which is (theoretically) resolvable.

I'm 23 years old and have struggled to find permanent employment since I graduated from college so I can't move out of my parent's house which is in Massachusetts. And there's lots to like about this state, with its forests, its strong knowledge economy, and its progressive values.

Rooting for climate change. Much progressive.

Quote from: SectorZ on December 27, 2020, 11:20:02 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 11:05:07 AM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 27, 2020, 10:58:37 AM
Kind of curious, if you hate winter so much, why stay in Massaschusetts?

I dislike the winter, but I've never decided to make a list of why it sucks in an effort to argue for, what I can only assume, is some quest to geo-engineer winter out of the climate. My beef, as stated earlier, is how the government reacts to it, which is (theoretically) resolvable.

I'm 23 years old and have struggled to find permanent employment since I graduated from college so I can't move out of my parent's house which is in Massachusetts. And there's lots to like about this state, with its forests, its strong knowledge economy, and its progressive values.

Rooting for climate change. Much progressive.

That's an interesting take isn't it?  That might make things in Massachusetts slightly more balmy, but what about all those other cities that suddenly would be in desert climates or might even be flooded over by sea level rise?  Then again all those polar ice caps melting might have the opposite effect and begin to shut down the oceanic current. 

Quote from: SectorZ on December 27, 2020, 11:20:02 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 11:05:07 AM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 27, 2020, 10:58:37 AM
Kind of curious, if you hate winter so much, why stay in Massaschusetts?

I dislike the winter, but I've never decided to make a list of why it sucks in an effort to argue for, what I can only assume, is some quest to geo-engineer winter out of the climate. My beef, as stated earlier, is how the government reacts to it, which is (theoretically) resolvable.

I'm 23 years old and have struggled to find permanent employment since I graduated from college so I can't move out of my parent's house which is in Massachusetts. And there's lots to like about this state, with its forests, its strong knowledge economy, and its progressive values.

Rooting for climate change. Much progressive.

I don't have to agree with the progressive consensus on everything. As you can see by my tag, I also think we spend too much money on mass transit.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 27, 2020, 11:24:16 AM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 27, 2020, 11:20:02 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 11:05:07 AM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 27, 2020, 10:58:37 AM
Kind of curious, if you hate winter so much, why stay in Massaschusetts?

I dislike the winter, but I've never decided to make a list of why it sucks in an effort to argue for, what I can only assume, is some quest to geo-engineer winter out of the climate. My beef, as stated earlier, is how the government reacts to it, which is (theoretically) resolvable.

I'm 23 years old and have struggled to find permanent employment since I graduated from college so I can't move out of my parent's house which is in Massachusetts. And there's lots to like about this state, with its forests, its strong knowledge economy, and its progressive values.

Rooting for climate change. Much progressive.

That's an interesting take isn't it?  That might make things in Massachusetts slightly more balmy, but what about all those other cities that suddenly would be in desert climates or might even be flooded over by sea level rise?  Then again all those polar ice caps melting might have the opposite effect and begin to shut down the oceanic current.

That was a sarcastic response to kernals...

Gee, if only we had a way to legally move around to places with higher ambient temperatures and tolerable pressures.

I guess we'll never know.

Quote from: formulanone on December 27, 2020, 11:26:42 AM
Gee, if only we had a way to legally move around to places in the same country where atomic structures are allowed move more freely due to higher ambient temperatures and tolerable pressures.

I guess we'll never know.

Exactly. Considering this country literally has almost every style of weather you could ask for, outside of 90F degree dew points like the Arabian Sea/Persian Gulf coastline and the -120F temps of central Antarctica.

Quote from: SectorZ on December 27, 2020, 11:29:34 AM

Quote from: formulanone on December 27, 2020, 11:26:42 AM
Gee, if only we had a way to legally move around to places in the same country where atomic structures are allowed move more freely due to higher ambient temperatures and tolerable pressures.

I guess we'll never know.

Exactly. Considering this country literally has almost every style of weather you could ask for, outside of 90F degree dew points like the Arabian Sea/Persian Gulf coastline and the -120F temps of central Antarctica.

Hell I did it when I was 18 when I moved from Lansing to Phoenix.  I had to use my savings to pull it off, but it is possible.  It was essentially taking a vow of poverty for about three years until I established in my career but it can be done.

Quote from: SectorZ on December 27, 2020, 11:29:34 AM

Quote from: formulanone on December 27, 2020, 11:26:42 AM
Gee, if only we had a way to legally move around to places in the same country where atomic structures are allowed move more freely due to higher ambient temperatures and tolerable pressures.

I guess we'll never know.

Exactly. Considering this country literally has almost every style of weather you could ask for, outside of 90F degree dew points like the Arabian Sea/Persian Gulf coastline and the -120F temps of central Antarctica.

I don't think anything in the US matches Mexico City's climate (the result of tropical + high elevation), which is actually one of the better ones.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 09:13:32 AM

Quote from: US 89 on December 27, 2020, 01:42:18 AM
Just about everywhere in the US west of the 100th meridian depends on a winter's worth of mountain snowpack for water. So we don't complain when it snows.

Summer heat is no walk in the park, either. Heat is the #1 weather-related killer every year in the US. People are more likely to recreate outside in summer and get injured doing so. Air conditioning is expensive - and get enough people to run their a/c during a big heat wave, and you might overwhelm the local electrical grids. Hot weather often causes roads to buckle and makes tires more likely to burst. I could go on...

No it's not, 17 times more deaths (https://www.treehugger.com/cold-deadlier-heat-4855696) are caused by extreme cold than heat

That is false. Citing the National Weather Service (https://www.weather.gov/hazstat/), which publicizes this statistic every time there's a heatwave in summer:

(https://www.weather.gov/images/hazstat/weather_fatalities.jpg)

I realize they put "winter" and "cold" separately, but even adding them together doesn't get above heat. Your study includes indirect deaths that can't really be attributed definitively. Would that guy have had his heart attack if it were 5 degrees warmer? Who knows.

As for salt alternatives: sand. It doesn't melt snow in the way salt does, but it does allow for better traction and it works at all temperatures. Salt theoretically melts ice down to -6F but actually loses a lot of its effectiveness below about 20. This is why DOTs in some very cold states such as Montana don't even bother to salt.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 12:24:05 AM

Quote from: ilpt4u on December 27, 2020, 12:22:04 AM
Snowfall helps to fill the water supply back up in the Great Lakes and other lakes, and of course snow up in the Rockies later melts and flows down the mountains to be water supplies, also

The Freeze-Thaw cycle is important to our way of life

Florida does just fine without them.

Two completely different climates bud. A freeze-thaw cycle is part of life for much of the northern US. Climates similar to Florida's are adapted to live where a freeze is considered harmful in some cases especially amongst citrus farmers for example

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 27, 2020, 11:24:16 AM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 27, 2020, 11:20:02 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 11:05:07 AM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 27, 2020, 10:58:37 AM
Kind of curious, if you hate winter so much, why stay in Massaschusetts?

I dislike the winter, but I've never decided to make a list of why it sucks in an effort to argue for, what I can only assume, is some quest to geo-engineer winter out of the climate. My beef, as stated earlier, is how the government reacts to it, which is (theoretically) resolvable.

I'm 23 years old and have struggled to find permanent employment since I graduated from college so I can't move out of my parent's house which is in Massachusetts. And there's lots to like about this state, with its forests, its strong knowledge economy, and its progressive values.

Rooting for climate change. Much progressive.

That's an interesting take isn't it?  That might make things in Massachusetts slightly more balmy, but what about all those other cities that suddenly would be in desert climates or might even be flooded over by sea level rise?  Then again all those polar ice caps melting might have the opposite effect and begin to shut down the oceanic current.

Deserts are created by a lack of rain, not by heat. And with 2 degrees of warming, sea level rise would be about 18 inches (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/05/200508083545.htm) by 2100, which is completely manageable. I would recommend we do this (https://singularityhub.com/2019/09/05/build-a-wall-a-wild-geoengineering-idea-to-save-the-glaciers/)

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 01:44:09 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 27, 2020, 11:24:16 AM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 27, 2020, 11:20:02 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 11:05:07 AM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 27, 2020, 10:58:37 AM
Kind of curious, if you hate winter so much, why stay in Massaschusetts?

I dislike the winter, but I've never decided to make a list of why it sucks in an effort to argue for, what I can only assume, is some quest to geo-engineer winter out of the climate. My beef, as stated earlier, is how the government reacts to it, which is (theoretically) resolvable.

I'm 23 years old and have struggled to find permanent employment since I graduated from college so I can't move out of my parent's house which is in Massachusetts. And there's lots to like about this state, with its forests, its strong knowledge economy, and its progressive values.

Rooting for climate change. Much progressive.

That's an interesting take isn't it?  That might make things in Massachusetts slightly more balmy, but what about all those other cities that suddenly would be in desert climates or might even be flooded over by sea level rise?  Then again all those polar ice caps melting might have the opposite effect and begin to shut down the oceanic current.

Deserts are created by a lack of rain, not by heat. And with 2 degrees of warming, sea level rise would be about 18 inches (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/05/200508083545.htm) by 2100, which is completely manageable. I would recommend we do this (https://singularityhub.com/2019/09/05/build-a-wall-a-wild-geoengineering-idea-to-save-the-glaciers/)

There is a whole lot of places just in the United States that are classified as Mediterranean that potentially dip into desert territory if a prolonged drought becomes the new normalized climate.  While not exactly full climate change (upstream diversions play a part) related I would point to the Central Valley California which historically has just hovered above 10 inches annually in terms of precipitation.  What happens when that dips below 10 inches a year for good and the water supply from snow melt off dwindles?  I'd argue that the beginning of that desertification has already been underway for some time. 

Regarding the flooding of coastlines, yes from all current data I've seen it suggests nothing in my lifetime will lead to a major abandonment.  That's the problem with playing the short game with climate and geology, you're not factoring what happens when you're gone.  I can't imagine places like New Orleans and Miami will be viable for long after the start of the 22nd Century.

Climate change could turn the Sahel, which is one of the poorest places on earth, green
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-climatechange-africa-sahel-idUSKBN19Q2WK

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 27, 2020, 02:02:07 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 01:44:09 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 27, 2020, 11:24:16 AM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 27, 2020, 11:20:02 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 11:05:07 AM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 27, 2020, 10:58:37 AM
Kind of curious, if you hate winter so much, why stay in Massaschusetts?

I dislike the winter, but I've never decided to make a list of why it sucks in an effort to argue for, what I can only assume, is some quest to geo-engineer winter out of the climate. My beef, as stated earlier, is how the government reacts to it, which is (theoretically) resolvable.

I'm 23 years old and have struggled to find permanent employment since I graduated from college so I can't move out of my parent's house which is in Massachusetts. And there's lots to like about this state, with its forests, its strong knowledge economy, and its progressive values.

Rooting for climate change. Much progressive.

That's an interesting take isn't it?  That might make things in Massachusetts slightly more balmy, but what about all those other cities that suddenly would be in desert climates or might even be flooded over by sea level rise?  Then again all those polar ice caps melting might have the opposite effect and begin to shut down the oceanic current.

Deserts are created by a lack of rain, not by heat. And with 2 degrees of warming, sea level rise would be about 18 inches (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/05/200508083545.htm) by 2100, which is completely manageable. I would recommend we do this (https://singularityhub.com/2019/09/05/build-a-wall-a-wild-geoengineering-idea-to-save-the-glaciers/)

There is a whole lot of places just in the United States that are classified as Mediterranean that potentially dip into desert territory if a prolonged drought becomes the new normalized climate.  While not exactly full climate change (upstream diversions play a part) related I would point to the Central Valley California which historically has just hovered above 10 inches annually in terms of precipitation.  What happens when that dips below 10 inches a year for good and the water supply from snow melt off dwindles?  I'd argue that the beginning of that desertification has already been underway for some time. 

Regarding the flooding of coastlines, yes from all current data I've seen it suggests nothing in my lifetime will lead to a major abandonment.  That's the problem with playing the short game with climate and geology, you're not factoring what happens when you're gone.  I can't imagine places like New Orleans and Miami will be viable for long after the start of the 22nd Century.

Since we're speculating, what if climate change leads to a permanent El Nino that gives California tons of extra rain?

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 02:05:16 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 27, 2020, 02:02:07 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 01:44:09 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 27, 2020, 11:24:16 AM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 27, 2020, 11:20:02 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 11:05:07 AM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 27, 2020, 10:58:37 AM
Kind of curious, if you hate winter so much, why stay in Massaschusetts?

I dislike the winter, but I've never decided to make a list of why it sucks in an effort to argue for, what I can only assume, is some quest to geo-engineer winter out of the climate. My beef, as stated earlier, is how the government reacts to it, which is (theoretically) resolvable.

I'm 23 years old and have struggled to find permanent employment since I graduated from college so I can't move out of my parent's house which is in Massachusetts. And there's lots to like about this state, with its forests, its strong knowledge economy, and its progressive values.

Rooting for climate change. Much progressive.

That's an interesting take isn't it?  That might make things in Massachusetts slightly more balmy, but what about all those other cities that suddenly would be in desert climates or might even be flooded over by sea level rise?  Then again all those polar ice caps melting might have the opposite effect and begin to shut down the oceanic current.

Deserts are created by a lack of rain, not by heat. And with 2 degrees of warming, sea level rise would be about 18 inches (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/05/200508083545.htm) by 2100, which is completely manageable. I would recommend we do this (https://singularityhub.com/2019/09/05/build-a-wall-a-wild-geoengineering-idea-to-save-the-glaciers/)

There is a whole lot of places just in the United States that are classified as Mediterranean that potentially dip into desert territory if a prolonged drought becomes the new normalized climate.  While not exactly full climate change (upstream diversions play a part) related I would point to the Central Valley California which historically has just hovered above 10 inches annually in terms of precipitation.  What happens when that dips below 10 inches a year for good and the water supply from snow melt off dwindles?  I'd argue that the beginning of that desertification has already been underway for some time. 

Regarding the flooding of coastlines, yes from all current data I've seen it suggests nothing in my lifetime will lead to a major abandonment.  That's the problem with playing the short game with climate and geology, you're not factoring what happens when you're gone.  I can't imagine places like New Orleans and Miami will be viable for long after the start of the 22nd Century.

Since we're speculating, what if climate change leads to a permanent El Nino that gives California tons of extra rain?

It would be a hell of a reversal of how things have been trending since the 1870s and even longer via the already existing natural warming process.  They don't call the Great Basin Desert as such just for fun, it's essentially just a giant dry lake bed.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 01:44:09 PM
Deserts are created by a lack of rain, not by heat.

Not necessarily. As a climatic zone, deserts are defined by the relationship between precipitation and potential evapotranspiration, which is a function of temperature. Given the same amount of water in a cold and warm place, the warm place will evaporate more of it, which means less is available for plants, runoff, agriculture, etc.

Fairbanks, for example, gets only 10.8 inches of rainfall a year - an amount comparable to Albuquerque's 9.5 inches. But look at a satellite view of the two cities and you'll notice ABQ looks a hell of a lot more desert-like - because it's a lot warmer, so after evaporation a much smaller proportion of that rainfall is usable in ABQ than in Fairbanks.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 27, 2020, 02:02:07 PM
Regarding the flooding of coastlines, yes from all current data I've seen it suggests nothing in my lifetime will lead to a major abandonment.  That's the problem with playing the short game with climate and geology, you're not factoring what happens when you're gone.  I can't imagine places like New Orleans and Miami will be viable for long after the start of the 22nd Century.

AN example nearby: Hudson is an estuary, with the water level in Albany NY / Troy NY  being an inch or two above mean sea level, and tidal changes being pretty good in the area
Now, that mean sea level gone up by about a foot over the past 100 years.
There are a few old homes which get flooded periodically, and IMHO need to be abandoned. However, people living there cannot afford a new place, and in general - few people can afford to abandon their homes and happily move on...

Quote from: kalvado on December 27, 2020, 03:13:52 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 27, 2020, 02:02:07 PM
Regarding the flooding of coastlines, yes from all current data I've seen it suggests nothing in my lifetime will lead to a major abandonment.  That's the problem with playing the short game with climate and geology, you're not factoring what happens when you're gone.  I can't imagine places like New Orleans and Miami will be viable for long after the start of the 22nd Century.

AN example nearby: Hudson is an estuary, with the water level in Albany NY / Troy NY  being an inch or two above mean sea level, and tidal changes being pretty good in the area
Now, that mean sea level gone up by about a foot over the past 100 years.
There are a few old homes which get flooded periodically, and IMHO need to be abandoned. However, people living there cannot afford a new place, and in general - few people can afford to abandon their homes and happily move on...

We may be talking about different things, but Google says Albany has an elevation of 141 feet.

As for those unfortunate homeowners, couldn't the state seize them by eminent domain and give them compensation? And would moving those homes not be an option?

I still don't get how someone who stays in a state due to its left-leaning politics actively roots for anthropogenic climate change.

Quote from: SectorZ on December 27, 2020, 04:11:56 PM
I still don't get how someone who stays in a state due to its left-leaning politics actively roots for anthropogenic climate change.

Did you not read the other 2 reasons I like Mass?

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 04:15:54 PM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 27, 2020, 04:11:56 PM
I still don't get how someone who stays in a state due to its left-leaning politics actively roots for anthropogenic climate change.

Did you not read the other 2 reasons I like Mass?

Forests are the entirety of the Eastern Time Zone in the US.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 03:39:43 PM
We may be talking about different things, but Google says Albany has an elevation of 141 feet.

Albany is in a hilly area. The river is at sea level.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 03:39:43 PM

Quote from: kalvado on December 27, 2020, 03:13:52 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 27, 2020, 02:02:07 PM
Regarding the flooding of coastlines, yes from all current data I've seen it suggests nothing in my lifetime will lead to a major abandonment.  That's the problem with playing the short game with climate and geology, you're not factoring what happens when you're gone.  I can't imagine places like New Orleans and Miami will be viable for long after the start of the 22nd Century.

AN example nearby: Hudson is an estuary, with the water level in Albany NY / Troy NY  being an inch or two above mean sea level, and tidal changes being pretty good in the area
Now, that mean sea level gone up by about a foot over the past 100 years.
There are a few old homes which get flooded periodically, and IMHO need to be abandoned. However, people living there cannot afford a new place, and in general - few people can afford to abandon their homes and happily move on...

We may be talking about different things, but Google says Albany has an elevation of 141 feet.

As for those unfortunate homeowners, couldn't the state seize them by eminent domain and give them compensation? And would moving those homes not be an option?

Terrain rises pretty fast away from the river; you probably see a number for a city hall or something like that. Hudson water level itself is in single-digit feet (sometimes negative single digits): https://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/stationhome.html?id=8518995#obs
https://water.weather.gov/ahps2/hydrograph.php?gage=albn6&wfo=aly

Yes, state action should be the answer IMHO, but again - it is about money and politics. I am just saying what things are as of right now.

Quote from: kalvado on December 27, 2020, 05:33:55 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 03:39:43 PM

Quote from: kalvado on December 27, 2020, 03:13:52 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 27, 2020, 02:02:07 PM
Regarding the flooding of coastlines, yes from all current data I've seen it suggests nothing in my lifetime will lead to a major abandonment.  That's the problem with playing the short game with climate and geology, you're not factoring what happens when you're gone.  I can't imagine places like New Orleans and Miami will be viable for long after the start of the 22nd Century.

AN example nearby: Hudson is an estuary, with the water level in Albany NY / Troy NY  being an inch or two above mean sea level, and tidal changes being pretty good in the area
Now, that mean sea level gone up by about a foot over the past 100 years.
There are a few old homes which get flooded periodically, and IMHO need to be abandoned. However, people living there cannot afford a new place, and in general - few people can afford to abandon their homes and happily move on...

We may be talking about different things, but Google says Albany has an elevation of 141 feet.

As for those unfortunate homeowners, couldn't the state seize them by eminent domain and give them compensation? And would moving those homes not be an option?

Terrain rises pretty fast away from the river; you probably see a number for a city hall or something like that. Hudson water level itself is in single-digit feet (sometimes negative single digits): https://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/stationhome.html?id=8518995#obs
https://water.weather.gov/ahps2/hydrograph.php?gage=albn6&wfo=aly

Yes, state action should be the answer IMHO, but again - it is about money and politics. I am just saying what things are as of right now.

I'd suggest we dam off the glaciers of Greenland and Antarctica
https://www.fastcompany.com/90239204/could-a-giant-underwater-wall-help-save-glaciers-from-collapse

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 05:52:48 PM

Quote from: kalvado on December 27, 2020, 05:33:55 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 03:39:43 PM

Quote from: kalvado on December 27, 2020, 03:13:52 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 27, 2020, 02:02:07 PM
Regarding the flooding of coastlines, yes from all current data I've seen it suggests nothing in my lifetime will lead to a major abandonment.  That's the problem with playing the short game with climate and geology, you're not factoring what happens when you're gone.  I can't imagine places like New Orleans and Miami will be viable for long after the start of the 22nd Century.

AN example nearby: Hudson is an estuary, with the water level in Albany NY / Troy NY  being an inch or two above mean sea level, and tidal changes being pretty good in the area
Now, that mean sea level gone up by about a foot over the past 100 years.
There are a few old homes which get flooded periodically, and IMHO need to be abandoned. However, people living there cannot afford a new place, and in general - few people can afford to abandon their homes and happily move on...

We may be talking about different things, but Google says Albany has an elevation of 141 feet.

As for those unfortunate homeowners, couldn't the state seize them by eminent domain and give them compensation? And would moving those homes not be an option?

Terrain rises pretty fast away from the river; you probably see a number for a city hall or something like that. Hudson water level itself is in single-digit feet (sometimes negative single digits): https://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/stationhome.html?id=8518995#obs
https://water.weather.gov/ahps2/hydrograph.php?gage=albn6&wfo=aly

Yes, state action should be the answer IMHO, but again - it is about money and politics. I am just saying what things are as of right now.

I'd suggest we dam off the glaciers of Greenland and Antarctica
https://www.fastcompany.com/90239204/could-a-giant-underwater-wall-help-save-glaciers-from-collapse

Sea level rise is occurring mainly because warmer water expands. Very little of it is from ice melting.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 12:18:52 AM
I loathe the cold. And from any rational viewpoint, you should too. It's expensive, bringing lots of problems that have no equivalent on the side of heat. I call it the "Frost Tax". Here's what it consists of:

-The Cost of Snow Removal
-The Cost of Warm Clothing
-The Cost of Natural Gas and Heating Oil
-The Cost of Snow Tires
-The Cost of Vehicles with All Wheel Drive
-The Cost of Engineering buildings to withstand the weight of snow
-Damage to highways by freeze thaw cycles
-Water pollution from road salt
-Closure of schools and businesses by snowstorms
-Disruption of airport operations by snowstorms
-Deaths from Hypothermia
-Car accidents from black ice
-Injuries from slipping on ice
-Seasonality of agriculture, construction, and tourism

We all pay the frost tax in obscure ways. Last week, in anticipation of a major snowstorm, I pulled my wipers away from my windshield, and in the process I stripped one of them. Getting a new one cost $70 and due to the post office's current problems, it's days late, so I've been driving with one wiper.

Maybe climate change isn't so bad.

Interesting take, though I can't say I agree with much of it (as a passionate winter-lover).

Here's one opposing Minnesotan perspective...

-We have ~$100 gas bills to heat 3500sf in the coldest months (not at all unreasonable IMHO). We'd certanly spend more to cool an equivalent house in the south, and most of those houses need heat anyway...
-The clothing I own isn't probably that different from what I'd own if I lived in Dallas or OKC. I mean, you're still going to need pants and long sleeves for the winter. I have a jacket with a removable liner, boots and gloves. No big deal.
-I drive a FWD car with all-season tires, and can get around just fine for the vast majority of the winter. No AWD needed - no added cost there.
-I've never broken a wiper blade due to the cold, but I usually spend around $15 on them anyway. (Also, it seems wiper blades last longer in cold climates anyway!)
-There's no clear connection between winter weather and traffic fatalities. In fact, many of the most dangerous states to drive in are in the south.
-We have a ~15 year old $500 snowblower that's never broken down. It uses about $5 in gas per winter, less than our mower uses in gas each summer. The cost of personal snow removal is pretty negligible. Oh, $10 in rock salt a year too.
-MnDOT is pretty good at cleaning up after snows, so travel disruptions seldom last for more than a day or two after larger storms.
-This point is of course personal preference, but I love each of our four seasons. I'm always ready for the next one, even winter. And I'm never more excited than during the first snow of the season. Even so, the first 60-degree day of spring? Bliss. For me, it's all about the contrast and the change.
-Other than SoCal, there aren't many places with great year-round weather anyway. I'd take the cold over the heat, but some have the opposite perspective.
-We adapt. While people everywhere love to talk about their locale's extreme weather, life pretty much just goes on no matter where you are.



I grew up, and still live for part of the year, in southern Minnesota (~40 inches of snow/year) and am going to school in eastern Nebraska (~30 inches/year).  I greatly prefer places with consistently cold, snowy winters to those south of there (I dislike the brown look of lower-midwestern winter). I wouldn't want to live anywhere getting less snow than that, and would likely not even consider places that don't get at least a few snows a year (Albuquerque or Asheville might be okay for me, but I'd prefer MSP or Chicago's climate. Dallas or Phoenix would be non-starters). Above I-90 would be my preference, but above I-80 would be okay. I'll concede that potholes and rusty cars aren't optimal, but I don't feel like most midwestern highways are all that much worse than their southern counterparts.

Quote from: tman on December 27, 2020, 06:28:34 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 12:18:52 AM
I loathe the cold. And from any rational viewpoint, you should too. It's expensive, bringing lots of problems that have no equivalent on the side of heat. I call it the "Frost Tax". Here's what it consists of:

-The Cost of Snow Removal
-The Cost of Warm Clothing
-The Cost of Natural Gas and Heating Oil
-The Cost of Snow Tires
-The Cost of Vehicles with All Wheel Drive
-The Cost of Engineering buildings to withstand the weight of snow
-Damage to highways by freeze thaw cycles
-Water pollution from road salt
-Closure of schools and businesses by snowstorms
-Disruption of airport operations by snowstorms
-Deaths from Hypothermia
-Car accidents from black ice
-Injuries from slipping on ice
-Seasonality of agriculture, construction, and tourism

We all pay the frost tax in obscure ways. Last week, in anticipation of a major snowstorm, I pulled my wipers away from my windshield, and in the process I stripped one of them. Getting a new one cost $70 and due to the post office's current problems, it's days late, so I've been driving with one wiper.

Maybe climate change isn't so bad.

Interesting take, though I can't say I agree with much of it (as a passionate winter-lover).

Here's one opposing Minnesotan perspective...

-We have ~$100 gas bills to heat 3500sf in the coldest months (not at all unreasonable IMHO). We'd certanly spend more to cool an equivalent house in the south, and most of those houses need heat anyway...
-The clothing I own isn't probably that different from what I'd own if I lived in Dallas or OKC. I mean, you're still going to need pants and long sleeves for the winter. I have a jacket with a removable liner, boots and gloves. No big deal.
-I drive a FWD car with all-season tires, and can get around just fine for the vast majority of the winter. No AWD needed - no added cost there.
-I've never broken a wiper blade due to the cold, but I usually spend around $15 on them anyway. (Also, it seems wiper blades last longer in cold climates anyway!)
-There's no clear connection between winter weather and traffic fatalities. In fact, many of the most dangerous states to drive in are in the south.
-We have a ~15 year old $500 snowblower that's never broken down. It uses about $5 in gas per winter, less than our mower uses in gas each summer. The cost of personal snow removal is pretty negligible. Oh, $10 in rock salt a year too.
-MnDOT is pretty good at cleaning up after snows, so travel disruptions seldom last for more than a day or two after larger storms.
-This point is of course personal preference, but I love each of our four seasons. I'm always ready for the next one, even winter. And I'm never more excited than during the first snow of the season. Even so, the first 60-degree day of spring? Bliss. For me, it's all about the contrast and the change.
-Other than SoCal, there aren't many places with great year-round weather anyway. I'd take the cold over the heat, but some have the opposite perspective.
-We adapt. While people everywhere love to talk about their locale's extreme weather, life pretty much just goes on no matter where you are.



I grew up, and still live for part of the year, in southern Minnesota (~40 inches of snow/year) and am going to school in eastern Nebraska (~30 inches/year).  I greatly prefer places with consistently cold, snowy winters to those south of there (I dislike the brown look of lower-midwestern winter). I wouldn't want to live anywhere getting less snow than that, and would likely not even consider places that don't get at least a few snows a year (Albuquerque or Asheville might be okay for me, but I'd prefer MSP or Chicago's climate. Dallas or Phoenix would be non-starters). Above I-90 would be my preference, but above I-80 would be okay. I'll concede that potholes and rusty cars aren't optimal, but I don't feel like most midwestern highways are all that much worse than their southern counterparts.

It wasn't the blade, it was the arm, which is much more expensive.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 06:37:13 PM
It wasn't the blade, it was the arm, which is much more expensive.

OK, that answered my question about why it cost so much, but wouldn't an auto parts store carry it, or be able to get it? Many of the auto parts chains rely on their own distribution networks,  instead of the USPS or commercial carriers, and shouldn't have been subject to shipping delays.

My wife mailed her aunt in Ypsilanti a Christmas present on Dec. 12. The package is still stuck in Detroit. Several of her Poshmark sales were hung up in Louisville for ages and still haven't arrived despite being sent Priority 2- or 3-day Mail.

Quote from: hbelkins on December 27, 2020, 08:12:43 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 06:37:13 PM
It wasn't the blade, it was the arm, which is much more expensive.

OK, that answered my question about why it cost so much, but wouldn't an auto parts store carry it, or be able to get it? Many of the auto parts chains rely on their own distribution networks,  instead of the USPS or commercial carriers, and shouldn't have been subject to shipping delays.

My wife mailed her aunt in Ypsilanti a Christmas present on Dec. 12. The package is still stuck in Detroit. Several of her Poshmark sales were hung up in Louisville for ages and still haven't arrived despite being sent Priority 2- or 3-day Mail.

Nope, they're specific to the car model. I had to order it from a dealer in North Attleboro, and I didn't want to make the trip down there, a decision which I very much regret

I am the 67th reply on December 27 alone. That's the most I've ever seen for a thread in a day.

About the hatred of cold weather, I hate hot weather way more so I don't complain when it's cold. I consider myself lucky to live in a place that has four seasons, instead of a place that only has "hot".

Survey says, by a 2-1 margin, that Americans prefer warmth to cold
https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2009/03/18/most-like-it-hot/

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 10:32:19 PM
Survey says, by a 2-1 margin, that Americans prefer warmth to cold
https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2009/03/18/most-like-it-hot/

If you framed it as humid vs cool, that margin would be reversed.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 10:32:19 PM
Survey says, by a 2-1 margin, that Americans prefer warmth to cold
https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2009/03/18/most-like-it-hot/

And this is supposed to make me change my opinion?

Can I put an end to this? Stop touting your personal opinion like it's the Bible. Some of us like it when it's not blistering hot and that's okay.

Quote from: thspfc on December 27, 2020, 10:36:48 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 10:32:19 PM
Survey says, by a 2-1 margin, that Americans prefer warmth to cold
https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2009/03/18/most-like-it-hot/

And this is supposed to make me change my opinion?

Can I put an end to this? Stop touting your personal opinion like it's the Bible. Some of us like it when it's not blistering hot and that's okay.

Neither do I. But I can comfortably handle 80 degrees.

Quote from: webny99 on December 27, 2020, 10:36:30 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 10:32:19 PM
Survey says, by a 2-1 margin, that Americans prefer warmth to cold
https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2009/03/18/most-like-it-hot/

If you framed it as humid vs cool, that margin would be reversed.

Humidity plus heat is the Devil's brew.  I handled it in many a Florida Summer but I have no interest in it ever again.

What really pissed me off was back in February when we had that freakishly mild winter and the only thing the media seemed to care about was the plight of skiers.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 11:06:20 PM
What really pissed me off was back in February when we had that freakishly mild winter and the only thing the media seemed to care about was the plight of skiers.

Yeah, screw those skiers and their snow loving ways!

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 27, 2020, 11:28:34 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 11:06:20 PM
What really pissed me off was back in February when we had that freakishly mild winter and the only thing the media seemed to care about was the plight of skiers.

Yeah, screw those skiers and their snow loving ways!

They could've spoken to poor people about how much they were saving on heat.

Clearly the place you're looking for is Vanuatu. 80 islands. No public transit (some minibuses). Lots of trees. Good temperatures.

Of course then you'd just complain for a Cyclone Tax.

Quote from: kalvado on December 27, 2020, 10:13:16 AM
And cost-wise, ol'good flame is much cheaper technology compared to power station turbine, which is a must for AC.

Ironically, the most efficient heating system is a heat pump (literally a central AC system running in reverse), because it moves existing heat from outside into the building vs. converting electricity or fossil fuels to heat. The problem is the "fuel" (electricity) is generally more expensive per kwh than sources like natural gas or heating oil.

"Seasonality of tourism"  goes more than one way. NFW would I go to Disney World or Phoenix or south Texas in July. On the flip side, in winter can go up to Lake Superior, and not be bothered by hordes of morons or be extorted by hotels like in summer and fall.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 11:59:26 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 27, 2020, 11:28:34 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 11:06:20 PM
What really pissed me off was back in February when we had that freakishly mild winter and the only thing the media seemed to care about was the plight of skiers.

Yeah, screw those skiers and their snow loving ways!

They could've spoken to poor people about how much they were saving on heat.

The same poor people that need to take the very public transit you're against?

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 27, 2020, 11:24:16 AM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 27, 2020, 11:20:02 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 11:05:07 AM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 27, 2020, 10:58:37 AMKind of curious, if you hate winter so much, why stay in Massaschusetts?

I dislike the winter, but I've never decided to make a list of why it sucks in an effort to argue for, what I can only assume, is some quest to geo-engineer winter out of the climate. My beef, as stated earlier, is how the government reacts to it, which is (theoretically) resolvable.

I'm 23 years old and have struggled to find permanent employment since I graduated from college so I can't move out of my parent's house which is in Massachusetts. And there's lots to like about this state, with its forests, its strong knowledge economy, and its progressive values.

Rooting for climate change. Much progressive.

That's an interesting take isn't it?  That might make things in Massachusetts slightly more balmy, but what about all those other cities that suddenly would be in desert climates or might even be flooded over by sea level rise?  Then again all those polar ice caps melting might have the opposite effect and begin to shut down the oceanic current.

From the perspective of human comfort, not to say livability, I think the key effect of global warming will be to make large areas of the Earth's landmass uninhabitable due to high heat in combination with high humidity.

Quote from: J N Winkler on December 28, 2020, 01:29:40 AM
I think the key effect of global warming will be to make large areas of the Earth's landmass uninhabitable due to high heat in combination with high humidity.

And of course, Southerners are already adapted to heat+humidity, and Texas produces a good chunk of the country's fossil fuels... Son of a bitch, the damn Texans are trying to take over the world!

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 28, 2020, 05:42:08 AM
... the damn Texans are trying to take over the world!

[insert Jack Easterby joke of choice here]

Quote from: hbelkins on December 27, 2020, 08:12:43 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 06:37:13 PM
It wasn't the blade, it was the arm, which is much more expensive.

OK, that answered my question about why it cost so much, but wouldn't an auto parts store carry it, or be able to get it? Many of the auto parts chains rely on their own distribution networks,  instead of the USPS or commercial carriers, and shouldn't have been subject to shipping delays.

....

Wiper arms vary widely from car to car. I just ordered a pair from a supplier in Washington State. But in my case, it's understandable why I had to make some effort, since the ones I wanted are for a 1988 RX-7. In my case, it's not due to "damage" per se–they work OK, but they're old and rusted and it was easier just to spend $65 plus shipping for each arm than it would be to remove them, sand them, and paint them.

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 28, 2020, 12:55:46 AM
"Seasonality of tourism"  goes more than one way. NFW would I go to Disney World or Phoenix or south Texas in July. On the flip side, in winter can go up to Lake Superior, and not be bothered by hordes of morons or be extorted by hotels like in summer and fall.

In Rural New England, tons of businesses close for the winter, much to the inconvenience of those of us looking for a burger while on a weekend drive to the country. Is that the case in Florida in the Summer?

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 28, 2020, 01:16:59 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 11:59:26 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 27, 2020, 11:28:34 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 11:06:20 PM
What really pissed me off was back in February when we had that freakishly mild winter and the only thing the media seemed to care about was the plight of skiers.

Yeah, screw those skiers and their snow loving ways!

They could've spoken to poor people about how much they were saving on heat.

The same poor people that need to take the very public transit you're against?

Most poor people utilize very cheap used cars to get around

Quote from: J N Winkler on December 28, 2020, 01:29:40 AM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 27, 2020, 11:24:16 AM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 27, 2020, 11:20:02 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 11:05:07 AM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 27, 2020, 10:58:37 AMKind of curious, if you hate winter so much, why stay in Massaschusetts?

I dislike the winter, but I've never decided to make a list of why it sucks in an effort to argue for, what I can only assume, is some quest to geo-engineer winter out of the climate. My beef, as stated earlier, is how the government reacts to it, which is (theoretically) resolvable.

I'm 23 years old and have struggled to find permanent employment since I graduated from college so I can't move out of my parent's house which is in Massachusetts. And there's lots to like about this state, with its forests, its strong knowledge economy, and its progressive values.

Rooting for climate change. Much progressive.

That's an interesting take isn't it?  That might make things in Massachusetts slightly more balmy, but what about all those other cities that suddenly would be in desert climates or might even be flooded over by sea level rise?  Then again all those polar ice caps melting might have the opposite effect and begin to shut down the oceanic current.

From the perspective of human comfort, not to say livability, I think the key effect of global warming will be to make large areas of the Earth's landmass uninhabitable due to high heat in combination with high humidity.

One study found that 80% of Americans live in places that have more pleasant weather now than in 1970
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature17441.epdf?referrer_access_token=Ckp0CXTydRGtmpYtZg_-XNRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0Oari_4VH1ACxpUBhDxd0FmZ7Gn_4IcmORidouNRJ30_6Qp5OLqp2LQeY_jXWaOeYbRl2ruraDNtrRV5Lh_TlK0nXYRkd9IGyLgXRzJBkzOdVb5S8RTt3XU92f_63Vf_eCAHOTpoDMAqK5B-rkXf3h2zsIvh7XmGeScZRT6GU-iu98RwsxLk8opQtbT7nkALIAYjHcKqv5JJwhYSW5RRWZPRM-zCnuHnHgPqyXbOf4ROENEfvUz9pAHUsf18NvJ_XN8_FPPfE5ynhRfkaO-ant0dxXpHDGFSWzZyvoXGG-7jG-Rdzy7PwQaB4jnbZ3E0_HohnOpkTNdLIOt2nSuWmgXtaz5KRYhVyln8oS1vFRpIw%3D%3D&tracking_referrer=www.npr.org

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 09:16:22 AM

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 28, 2020, 12:55:46 AM
"Seasonality of tourism"  goes more than one way. NFW would I go to Disney World or Phoenix or south Texas in July. On the flip side, in winter can go up to Lake Superior, and not be bothered by hordes of morons or be extorted by hotels like in summer and fall.

In Rural New England, tons of businesses close for the winter, much to the inconvenience of those of us looking for a burger while on a weekend drive to the country. Is that the case in Florida in the Summer?

Why are you going for a drive in the winter in the country? Maybe because there aren't hoards of tourists?  I'm sure you don't have to drive that far to find your burger. What would you do in rural areas where there's no restaurants at all?

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 28, 2020, 10:02:54 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 09:16:22 AM

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 28, 2020, 12:55:46 AM
"Seasonality of tourism"  goes more than one way. NFW would I go to Disney World or Phoenix or south Texas in July. On the flip side, in winter can go up to Lake Superior, and not be bothered by hordes of morons or be extorted by hotels like in summer and fall.

In Rural New England, tons of businesses close for the winter, much to the inconvenience of those of us looking for a burger while on a weekend drive to the country. Is that the case in Florida in the Summer?

Why are you going for a drive in the winter in the country? Maybe because there aren't hoards of tourists?  I'm sure you don't have to drive that far to find your burger. What would you do in rural areas where there's no restaurants at all?

I like taking a drive out in the country. And in one case, my parents wanted me to pick up some stuff from a bakery on the Cape.

Here's how we can have our cake and eat it too on climate change (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs42452-019-1755-y).

Melting the Arctic would actually result in a cooling of the earth, as the reduced albedo would be more than cancelled out by the removal of the insulating layer of ice, allowing more of the ocean's heat to escape into space. The result would be the Arctic would be above freezing even in January. One of the authors of the paper told me that Winter temperatures in the US and Asia would rise by 3-4 degrees celsius, and by 5 degrees in Europe due to the stronger AMOC. And that's not counting the impact of reduced albedo from lower snow cover in Canada and Siberia.

But the Mid Atlantic would also cool down, creating fewer hurricanes, and the seas around Antarctica would cool, slowing down the melting there, something that can be helped along by building submerged barriers (https://e360.yale.edu/digest/could-building-massive-seafloor-barriers-around-antarctica-help-slow-sea-level-rise) to protect Antarctica's glaciers from the warm ocean.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 10:08:38 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 28, 2020, 10:02:54 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 09:16:22 AM

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 28, 2020, 12:55:46 AM
"Seasonality of tourism"  goes more than one way. NFW would I go to Disney World or Phoenix or south Texas in July. On the flip side, in winter can go up to Lake Superior, and not be bothered by hordes of morons or be extorted by hotels like in summer and fall.

In Rural New England, tons of businesses close for the winter, much to the inconvenience of those of us looking for a burger while on a weekend drive to the country. Is that the case in Florida in the Summer?

Why are you going for a drive in the winter in the country? Maybe because there aren't hoards of tourists?  I'm sure you don't have to drive that far to find your burger. What would you do in rural areas where there's no restaurants at all?

I like taking a drive out in the country. And in one case, my parents wanted me to pick up some stuff from a bakery on the Cape.

You're surprised that businesses in beach towns are closed in the winter? I've been to beach towns in South Carolina where businesses close in the winter. This isn't a "frost tax" thing, it's a "people don't want to go to the beach in winter" thing. New England would need South Florida's climate to alleviate your concern there.

Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 28, 2020, 10:57:08 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 10:08:38 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 28, 2020, 10:02:54 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 09:16:22 AM

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 28, 2020, 12:55:46 AM
"Seasonality of tourism"  goes more than one way. NFW would I go to Disney World or Phoenix or south Texas in July. On the flip side, in winter can go up to Lake Superior, and not be bothered by hordes of morons or be extorted by hotels like in summer and fall.

In Rural New England, tons of businesses close for the winter, much to the inconvenience of those of us looking for a burger while on a weekend drive to the country. Is that the case in Florida in the Summer?

Why are you going for a drive in the winter in the country? Maybe because there aren't hoards of tourists?  I'm sure you don't have to drive that far to find your burger. What would you do in rural areas where there's no restaurants at all?

I like taking a drive out in the country. And in one case, my parents wanted me to pick up some stuff from a bakery on the Cape.

You're surprised that businesses in beach towns are closed in the winter? I've been to beach towns in South Carolina where businesses close in the winter. This isn't a "frost tax" thing, it's a "people don't want to go to the beach in winter" thing. New England would need South Florida's climate to alleviate your concern there.

Maybe winter is too much to ask, but 3 seasons of the year would be nice.

Winter is great.  It keeps out the riff-raff. :P

When it's cold, you can always put on more clothes.  When it's hot, you can only take so many clothes off before you get arrested.

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 28, 2020, 12:55:46 AM
"Seasonality of tourism"  goes more than one way. NFW would I go to Disney World or Phoenix or south Texas in July. On the flip side, in winter can go up to Lake Superior, and not be bothered by hordes of morons or be extorted by hotels like in summer and fall.

But what about agriculture and construction?

(https://i.imgur.com/B3ixhnB.png)

In the Sun Belt, construction is a year round endeavor while in the snow belt, everything grinds to a halt in winter, leaving all those construction workers out of a job and lots of construction equipment rusting away in storage.

And I hardly need to talk about agriculture.

Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 28, 2020, 11:28:28 AM
Winter is great.  It keeps out the riff-raff. :P

When it's cold, you can always put on more clothes.  When it's hot, you can only take so many clothes off before you get arrested.

But 90 degrees is closer to what humans consider optimal than 30 degrees.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 12:18:10 PM

Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 28, 2020, 11:28:28 AM
Winter is great.  It keeps out the riff-raff. :P

When it's cold, you can always put on more clothes.  When it's hot, you can only take so many clothes off before you get arrested.

But 90 degrees is closer to what humans consider optimal than 30 degrees.

Meh, I'll take the 30F over 90F.  30F never put me in the hospital for dehydration and possible heart issues, 90F (89F specifically) did in 2015.  50-55F is about as perfect as it gets for me, I guess I'm not human.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 28, 2020, 12:22:20 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 12:18:10 PM

Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 28, 2020, 11:28:28 AM
Winter is great.  It keeps out the riff-raff. :P

When it's cold, you can always put on more clothes.  When it's hot, you can only take so many clothes off before you get arrested.

But 90 degrees is closer to what humans consider optimal than 30 degrees.

Meh, I'll take the 30F over 90F.  30F never put me in the hospital for dehydration and possible heart issues, 90F (89F specifically) did in 2015.  50-55F is about as perfect as it gets for me, I guess I'm not human.

What do you have your thermostat set for?

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 12:30:52 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 28, 2020, 12:22:20 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 12:18:10 PM

Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 28, 2020, 11:28:28 AM
Winter is great.  It keeps out the riff-raff. :P

When it's cold, you can always put on more clothes.  When it's hot, you can only take so many clothes off before you get arrested.

But 90 degrees is closer to what humans consider optimal than 30 degrees.

Meh, I'll take the 30F over 90F.  30F never put me in the hospital for dehydration and possible heart issues, 90F (89F specifically) did in 2015.  50-55F is about as perfect as it gets for me, I guess I'm not human.

What do you have your thermostat set for?

I don't have it set to anything, it's not on and stays around 60-66F by default.  I think you're missing the point of what I was trying to say.  Not everyone agrees with your views on everything, for some reason you don't see that despite numerous people disagreeing with you.  This thread is just another example of it. 

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 28, 2020, 12:39:57 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 12:30:52 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 28, 2020, 12:22:20 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 12:18:10 PM

Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 28, 2020, 11:28:28 AM
Winter is great.  It keeps out the riff-raff. :P

When it's cold, you can always put on more clothes.  When it's hot, you can only take so many clothes off before you get arrested.

But 90 degrees is closer to what humans consider optimal than 30 degrees.

Meh, I'll take the 30F over 90F.  30F never put me in the hospital for dehydration and possible heart issues, 90F (89F specifically) did in 2015.  50-55F is about as perfect as it gets for me, I guess I'm not human.

What do you have your thermostat set for?

I don't have it set to anything, it's not on and stays around 60-66F by default.  I think you're missing the point of what I was trying to say.  Not everyone agrees with your views on everything, for some reason you don't see that despite numerous people disagreeing with you.  This thread is just another example of it.

68 to 72 degrees is kind of the default for room temperature.  (https://www.google.com/search?q=room+temperature+definition&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS530US530&oq=room+temperature+defin&aqs=chrome.0.0i457j0j69i57j0l3j0i22i30l2.3529j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 12:52:33 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 28, 2020, 12:39:57 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 12:30:52 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 28, 2020, 12:22:20 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 12:18:10 PM

Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 28, 2020, 11:28:28 AM
Winter is great.  It keeps out the riff-raff. :P

When it's cold, you can always put on more clothes.  When it's hot, you can only take so many clothes off before you get arrested.

But 90 degrees is closer to what humans consider optimal than 30 degrees.

Meh, I'll take the 30F over 90F.  30F never put me in the hospital for dehydration and possible heart issues, 90F (89F specifically) did in 2015.  50-55F is about as perfect as it gets for me, I guess I'm not human.

What do you have your thermostat set for?

I don't have it set to anything, it's not on and stays around 60-66F by default.  I think you're missing the point of what I was trying to say.  Not everyone agrees with your views on everything, for some reason you don't see that despite numerous people disagreeing with you.  This thread is just another example of it.

68 to 72 degrees is kind of the default for room temperature.  (https://www.google.com/search?q=room+temperature+definition&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS530US530&oq=room+temperature+defin&aqs=chrome.0.0i457j0j69i57j0l3j0i22i30l2.3529j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)

With the air off for months?  Probably not so much on that range temperatures in other places more northerly than me.  Right now I'm completely comfortable, I'm definitely not when we have it at 85F in the summer time to avoid a huge utility bill. 

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 12:18:10 PM

Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 28, 2020, 11:28:28 AM
Winter is great.  It keeps out the riff-raff. :P

When it's cold, you can always put on more clothes.  When it's hot, you can only take so many clothes off before you get arrested.

But 90 degrees is closer to what humans consider optimal than 30 degrees.

Citation needed.  Unless we're saying 65-70 is closer to 90 than 30. In that case, humans prefer temps closer to 200 than to negative 80.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 12:17:21 PM
In the Sun Belt, construction is a year round endeavor while in the snow belt, everything grinds to a halt in winter, leaving all those construction workers out of a job and lots of construction equipment rusting away in storage.

You're not the only one to say this. Yet, there's plenty of construction going on in the winter. It is so visible. I don't know how people continously miss houses being built, offices being constructed, and road construction being worked on in the winter. Sure there's some things that need to be halted, but not everything.

Might just shut down Canada and evacuate the country.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 28, 2020, 05:51:37 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 12:18:10 PM

Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 28, 2020, 11:28:28 AM
Winter is great.  It keeps out the riff-raff. :P

When it's cold, you can always put on more clothes.  When it's hot, you can only take so many clothes off before you get arrested.

But 90 degrees is closer to what humans consider optimal than 30 degrees.

Citation needed.  Unless we're saying 65-70 is closer to 90 than 30. In that case, humans prefer temps closer to 200 than to negative 80.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 12:17:21 PM
In the Sun Belt, construction is a year round endeavor while in the snow belt, everything grinds to a halt in winter, leaving all those construction workers out of a job and lots of construction equipment rusting away in storage.

You're not the only one to say this. Yet, there's plenty of construction going on in the winter. It is so visible. I don't know how people continously miss houses being built, offices being constructed, and road construction being worked on in the winter. Sure there's some things that need to be halted, but not everything.

Might just shut down Canada and evacuate the country.

I guess the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago (https://www.chicagofed.org/publications/economic-perspectives/2018/3), which made that chart, also missed those things.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 28, 2020, 05:51:37 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 12:18:10 PM

Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 28, 2020, 11:28:28 AM
Winter is great.  It keeps out the riff-raff. :P

When it's cold, you can always put on more clothes.  When it's hot, you can only take so many clothes off before you get arrested.

But 90 degrees is closer to what humans consider optimal than 30 degrees.

Citation needed.  Unless we're saying 65-70 is closer to 90 than 30. In that case, humans prefer temps closer to 200 than to negative 80.

And also, just looking at temperature difference alone is misleading. If we're taking 70F as the ideal human temperature, going 20 degrees higher does not produce an equal and opposite outcome as going 20 degrees lower. If it's 50 outside, put on a sweater and you're good. Can't just take off a sweater that doesn't exist at 90...and if it's humid as it often is in the eastern US, it's going to feel quite a bit warmer than 90.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 05:58:58 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 28, 2020, 05:51:37 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 12:18:10 PM

Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 28, 2020, 11:28:28 AM
Winter is great.  It keeps out the riff-raff. :P

When it's cold, you can always put on more clothes.  When it's hot, you can only take so many clothes off before you get arrested.

But 90 degrees is closer to what humans consider optimal than 30 degrees.

Citation needed.  Unless we're saying 65-70 is closer to 90 than 30. In that case, humans prefer temps closer to 200 than to negative 80.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 12:17:21 PM
In the Sun Belt, construction is a year round endeavor while in the snow belt, everything grinds to a halt in winter, leaving all those construction workers out of a job and lots of construction equipment rusting away in storage.

You're not the only one to say this. Yet, there's plenty of construction going on in the winter. It is so visible. I don't know how people continously miss houses being built, offices being constructed, and road construction being worked on in the winter. Sure there's some things that need to be halted, but not everything.

Might just shut down Canada and evacuate the country.

I guess the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago (https://www.chicagofed.org/publications/economic-perspectives/2018/3), which made that chart, also missed those things.

I've witnessed tons of construction in all my years in the Midwest and New England.  Just because construction slows in the winter months doesn't mean it stops across the board.  Yes, it is easier to work in the warmer months but there is often projects that need to get done regardless of the obstacles of colder conditions. 

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 05:58:58 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 28, 2020, 05:51:37 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 12:18:10 PM

Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 28, 2020, 11:28:28 AM
Winter is great.  It keeps out the riff-raff. :P

When it's cold, you can always put on more clothes.  When it's hot, you can only take so many clothes off before you get arrested.

But 90 degrees is closer to what humans consider optimal than 30 degrees.

Citation needed.  Unless we're saying 65-70 is closer to 90 than 30. In that case, humans prefer temps closer to 200 than to negative 80.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 12:17:21 PM
In the Sun Belt, construction is a year round endeavor while in the snow belt, everything grinds to a halt in winter, leaving all those construction workers out of a job and lots of construction equipment rusting away in storage.

You're not the only one to say this. Yet, there's plenty of construction going on in the winter. It is so visible. I don't know how people continously miss houses being built, offices being constructed, and road construction being worked on in the winter. Sure there's some things that need to be halted, but not everything.

Might just shut down Canada and evacuate the country.

I guess the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago (https://www.chicagofed.org/publications/economic-perspectives/2018/3), which made that chart, also missed those things.

Government dislikes the hot summer.  If that's not an argument for global warming, I don't know what is.   :spin:

Quote from: GaryV on December 28, 2020, 06:07:05 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 05:58:58 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 28, 2020, 05:51:37 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 12:18:10 PM

Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 28, 2020, 11:28:28 AM
Winter is great.  It keeps out the riff-raff. :P

When it's cold, you can always put on more clothes.  When it's hot, you can only take so many clothes off before you get arrested.

But 90 degrees is closer to what humans consider optimal than 30 degrees.

Citation needed.  Unless we're saying 65-70 is closer to 90 than 30. In that case, humans prefer temps closer to 200 than to negative 80.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 12:17:21 PM
In the Sun Belt, construction is a year round endeavor while in the snow belt, everything grinds to a halt in winter, leaving all those construction workers out of a job and lots of construction equipment rusting away in storage.

You're not the only one to say this. Yet, there's plenty of construction going on in the winter. It is so visible. I don't know how people continously miss houses being built, offices being constructed, and road construction being worked on in the winter. Sure there's some things that need to be halted, but not everything.

Might just shut down Canada and evacuate the country.

I guess the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago (https://www.chicagofed.org/publications/economic-perspectives/2018/3), which made that chart, also missed those things.

Government dislikes the hot summer.  If that's not an argument for global warming, I don't know what is.   :spin:

No, the opposite. The Government thinks that Summer, rather than Winter, is so awesome that Children should get to enjoy it without school

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 05:58:58 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 28, 2020, 05:51:37 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 12:18:10 PM

Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 28, 2020, 11:28:28 AM
Winter is great.  It keeps out the riff-raff. :P

When it's cold, you can always put on more clothes.  When it's hot, you can only take so many clothes off before you get arrested.

But 90 degrees is closer to what humans consider optimal than 30 degrees.

Citation needed.  Unless we're saying 65-70 is closer to 90 than 30. In that case, humans prefer temps closer to 200 than to negative 80.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 12:17:21 PM
In the Sun Belt, construction is a year round endeavor while in the snow belt, everything grinds to a halt in winter, leaving all those construction workers out of a job and lots of construction equipment rusting away in storage.

You're not the only one to say this. Yet, there's plenty of construction going on in the winter. It is so visible. I don't know how people continously miss houses being built, offices being constructed, and road construction being worked on in the winter. Sure there's some things that need to be halted, but not everything.

Might just shut down Canada and evacuate the country.

I guess the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago (https://www.chicagofed.org/publications/economic-perspectives/2018/3), which made that chart, also missed those things.

They didn't miss it. You did.

Here's a few quotes:

QuoteConstruction employment (figure 3, panel A) reaches a trough in February–when employment is about 10 percent below the annual average–and a peak around August–when employment is about 7 percent above the annual average.

Quote
At one extreme, the range of seasonal variation in construction employment (panel A) is quite large, close to 20 percentage points. For retail trade and government (panels C and D, respectively), the range is only 6 to 8 percentage points, and manufacturing (panel B) is even less seasonal.

The report you cited never ever came close to saying "everything grinds to a halt in winter, leaving all those construction workers out of a job". It ever so clearly did say there's fewer construction jobs than average in the winter, and even then it wasn't nearly to the extent you exaggerated.

I would say something about this, but at this point kernals12 is just wasting our time. Let this be the last post in this thread. The guy can't even use correct capitalization, yet we're supposed to believe him when he says that global warming is a good thing?  :-D

Quote from: thspfc on December 28, 2020, 08:02:57 PM
The guy can't even use correct capitalization

Even though agentsteel53 no longer posts on this forum, you should look at his posts. He consistently leaves the first letter of each sentence lowercase, only capitalizing proper nouns.

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=1 (that's not me; it goes by user ID, and mine is 12069)

Quote from: thspfc on December 28, 2020, 08:02:57 PM
I would say something about this, but at this point kernals12 is just wasting our time. Let this be the last post in this thread. The guy can't even use correct capitalization, yet we're supposed to believe him when he says that global warming is a good thing?  :-D

The feeling I've always gotten is that he operates under the assumption that he knows something worldly because he's a college grad?

I'm aware that goes again the grain of what you were looking regarding letting this train wreck whimper into the forgotten list of AAroads threads. 

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 06:08:29 PM

Quote from: GaryV on December 28, 2020, 06:07:05 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 05:58:58 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 28, 2020, 05:51:37 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 12:18:10 PM

Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 28, 2020, 11:28:28 AM
Winter is great.  It keeps out the riff-raff. :P

When it's cold, you can always put on more clothes.  When it's hot, you can only take so many clothes off before you get arrested.

But 90 degrees is closer to what humans consider optimal than 30 degrees.

Citation needed.  Unless we're saying 65-70 is closer to 90 than 30. In that case, humans prefer temps closer to 200 than to negative 80.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2020, 12:17:21 PM
In the Sun Belt, construction is a year round endeavor while in the snow belt, everything grinds to a halt in winter, leaving all those construction workers out of a job and lots of construction equipment rusting away in storage.

You're not the only one to say this. Yet, there's plenty of construction going on in the winter. It is so visible. I don't know how people continously miss houses being built, offices being constructed, and road construction being worked on in the winter. Sure there's some things that need to be halted, but not everything.

Might just shut down Canada and evacuate the country.

I guess the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago (https://www.chicagofed.org/publications/economic-perspectives/2018/3), which made that chart, also missed those things.

Government dislikes the hot summer.  If that's not an argument for global warming, I don't know what is.   :spin:

No, the opposite. The Government thinks that Summer, rather than Winter, is so awesome that Children should get to enjoy it without school

This is a hold over from the days when the United States was an agrarian society and we needed children to work on the farms in the summer. There has been a tourist industry that has taken advantage of this but the roots of "summer vacation" are not in any kind of real leisure at all.

He lives in his parent's basement in Massachusetts because he claims he can't find a job, yet somehow has the time to find out how construction workers and contractors work - which isn't accurate in the very least. I would suspect that this "college grad" would do better if he actually worked a trade or as a contractor and find out how so many of us make it through the winter :D

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 11:06:20 PM
What really pissed me off was back in February when we had that freakishly mild winter and the only thing the media seemed to care about was the plight of skiers.

And on that note
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/28/world/europe/austria-ski-crowds-lockdown.html

Quote from: kernals12 on December 29, 2020, 02:13:20 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 11:06:20 PM
What really pissed me off was back in February when we had that freakishly mild winter and the only thing the media seemed to care about was the plight of skiers.

And on that note
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/28/world/europe/austria-ski-crowds-lockdown.html

I'm confused how this makes a point in your own thread.

Quote from: SectorZ on December 29, 2020, 02:46:30 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 29, 2020, 02:13:20 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 11:06:20 PM
What really pissed me off was back in February when we had that freakishly mild winter and the only thing the media seemed to care about was the plight of skiers.

And on that note
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/28/world/europe/austria-ski-crowds-lockdown.html

I'm confused how this makes a point in your own thread.

It's evidence that skiers do not deserve our sympathy.

This page (https://www.nhstateparks.org/visit/historic-sites/robert-frost-farm-historic-site) should settle the frost tax debate. The Robert Frost Farm is in Derry, NH. Admission has no tax, because it's in New Hampshire.

Quote from: 1 on December 29, 2020, 02:48:58 PM
This page (https://www.nhstateparks.org/visit/historic-sites/robert-frost-farm-historic-site) should settle the frost tax debate. The Robert Frost Farm is in Derry, NH. Admission has no tax, because it's in New Hampshire.

Hardy Har Har

I wonder, did Jack Frost tax the Elves in the North Pole when he snatched dominion from Tim Allen as the new Santa in Santa Clause 3?  That theme park had to be funded somehow and I doubt it was with well wishes.

This thread derailed from this post:

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 12:18:52 AM
I loathe the cold. And from any rational viewpoint, you should too. It's expensive, bringing lots of problems that have no equivalent on the side of heat. I call it the "Frost Tax". Here's what it consists of:

-The Cost of Snow Removal
-The Cost of Warm Clothing
-The Cost of Natural Gas and Heating Oil
-The Cost of Snow Tires
-The Cost of Vehicles with All Wheel Drive
-The Cost of Engineering buildings to withstand the weight of snow
-Damage to highways by freeze thaw cycles
-Water pollution from road salt
-Closure of schools and businesses by snowstorms
-Disruption of airport operations by snowstorms
-Deaths from Hypothermia
-Car accidents from black ice
-Injuries from slipping on ice
-Seasonality of agriculture, construction, and tourism

We all pay the frost tax in obscure ways. Last week, in anticipation of a major snowstorm, I pulled my wipers away from my windshield, and in the process I stripped one of them. Getting a new one cost $70 and due to the post office's current problems, it's days late, so I've been driving with one wiper.

Maybe climate change isn't so bad.

I noticed that take on climate change wasn't a question.  Therefore it is rendered factual because the OP says so. 

Yeah, how about the Heat Tax?  Climate change was depicted quite differently in Cosmos from what kernals12 envisions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bA4aV5s_UU

Quote from: vdeane on December 29, 2020, 09:06:43 PM
Yeah, how about the Heat Tax?  Climate change was depicted quite differently in Cosmos from what kernals12 envisions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bA4aV5s_UU

Floods can be prevented by dikes. Heat exhaustion can be prevented by air conditioning. Nothing short of putting heating coils under all our roads will keep us safe from snow and ice.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 29, 2020, 09:34:01 PM

Quote from: vdeane on December 29, 2020, 09:06:43 PM
Yeah, how about the Heat Tax?  Climate change was depicted quite differently in Cosmos from what kernals12 envisions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bA4aV5s_UU

Floods can be prevented by dikes. Heat exhaustion can be prevented by air conditioning. Nothing short of putting heating coils under all our roads will keep us safe from snow and ice.

Dikes and air conditioning are free?  Why didn't you say so!

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 29, 2020, 09:36:09 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 29, 2020, 09:34:01 PM

Quote from: vdeane on December 29, 2020, 09:06:43 PM
Yeah, how about the Heat Tax?  Climate change was depicted quite differently in Cosmos from what kernals12 envisions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bA4aV5s_UU

Floods can be prevented by dikes. Heat exhaustion can be prevented by air conditioning. Nothing short of putting heating coils under all our roads will keep us safe from snow and ice.

Dikes and air conditioning are free?  Why didn't you say so!

They're clearly much less expensive than heated roads.

Building giant pipelines to steal take a share of our Midwestern water is free?

Quote from: kernals12 on December 29, 2020, 09:37:33 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 29, 2020, 09:36:09 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 29, 2020, 09:34:01 PM

Quote from: vdeane on December 29, 2020, 09:06:43 PM
Yeah, how about the Heat Tax?  Climate change was depicted quite differently in Cosmos from what kernals12 envisions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bA4aV5s_UU

Floods can be prevented by dikes. Heat exhaustion can be prevented by air conditioning. Nothing short of putting heating coils under all our roads will keep us safe from snow and ice.

Dikes and air conditioning are free?  Why didn't you say so!

They're clearly much less expensive than heated roads.

Citation needed, a real one this time.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 29, 2020, 10:03:52 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 29, 2020, 09:37:33 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 29, 2020, 09:36:09 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 29, 2020, 09:34:01 PM

Quote from: vdeane on December 29, 2020, 09:06:43 PM
Yeah, how about the Heat Tax?  Climate change was depicted quite differently in Cosmos from what kernals12 envisions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bA4aV5s_UU

Floods can be prevented by dikes. Heat exhaustion can be prevented by air conditioning. Nothing short of putting heating coils under all our roads will keep us safe from snow and ice.

Dikes and air conditioning are free?  Why didn't you say so!

They're clearly much less expensive than heated roads.

Citation needed, a real one this time.

87% of American homes have air conditioning (https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=36692)


Flood control dams are a ubiquity, the best known one near me is the Charles River Dam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_River_Dam), erected in 1910 and replaced in 1978 by a better one. And we've already spoken at length about how Los Angeles brought its river to heel.

So we have lots of air conditioners and flood control systems, which wouldn't be the case if they weren't cost effective. How many places do you know that have heated roads?

At least one town in Michigan has a heated road system.

https://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/2016/02/why_holland_spends_millions_to.html

Quote from: kernals12 on December 29, 2020, 10:14:52 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 29, 2020, 10:03:52 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 29, 2020, 09:37:33 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 29, 2020, 09:36:09 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 29, 2020, 09:34:01 PM

Quote from: vdeane on December 29, 2020, 09:06:43 PM
Yeah, how about the Heat Tax?  Climate change was depicted quite differently in Cosmos from what kernals12 envisions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bA4aV5s_UU

Floods can be prevented by dikes. Heat exhaustion can be prevented by air conditioning. Nothing short of putting heating coils under all our roads will keep us safe from snow and ice.

Dikes and air conditioning are free?  Why didn't you say so!

They're clearly much less expensive than heated roads.

Citation needed, a real one this time.

87% of American homes have air conditioning (https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=36692)


Flood control dams are a ubiquity, the best known one near me is the Charles River Dam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_River_Dam), erected in 1910 and replaced in 1978 by a better one. And we've already spoken at length about how Los Angeles brought its river to heel.

So we have lots of air conditioners and flood control systems, which wouldn't be the case if they weren't cost effective. How many places do you know that have heated roads?

You're the only person I've ever seen argue for mass use of heated roads.  So spin me a citation or proof of concept for them and their cost.  . 

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 29, 2020, 10:24:38 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 29, 2020, 10:14:52 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 29, 2020, 10:03:52 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 29, 2020, 09:37:33 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 29, 2020, 09:36:09 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 29, 2020, 09:34:01 PM

Quote from: vdeane on December 29, 2020, 09:06:43 PM
Yeah, how about the Heat Tax?  Climate change was depicted quite differently in Cosmos from what kernals12 envisions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bA4aV5s_UU

Floods can be prevented by dikes. Heat exhaustion can be prevented by air conditioning. Nothing short of putting heating coils under all our roads will keep us safe from snow and ice.

Dikes and air conditioning are free?  Why didn't you say so!

They're clearly much less expensive than heated roads.

Citation needed, a real one this time.

87% of American homes have air conditioning (https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=36692)


Flood control dams are a ubiquity, the best known one near me is the Charles River Dam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_River_Dam), erected in 1910 and replaced in 1978 by a better one. And we've already spoken at length about how Los Angeles brought its river to heel.

So we have lots of air conditioners and flood control systems, which wouldn't be the case if they weren't cost effective. How many places do you know that have heated roads?

You're the only person I've ever seen argue for mass use of heated roads.  So spin me a citation or proof of concept for them and their cost.  .

I'm not arguing for them.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 29, 2020, 10:56:15 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 29, 2020, 10:24:38 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 29, 2020, 10:14:52 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 29, 2020, 10:03:52 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 29, 2020, 09:37:33 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 29, 2020, 09:36:09 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 29, 2020, 09:34:01 PM

Quote from: vdeane on December 29, 2020, 09:06:43 PM
Yeah, how about the Heat Tax?  Climate change was depicted quite differently in Cosmos from what kernals12 envisions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bA4aV5s_UU

Floods can be prevented by dikes. Heat exhaustion can be prevented by air conditioning. Nothing short of putting heating coils under all our roads will keep us safe from snow and ice.

Dikes and air conditioning are free?  Why didn't you say so!

They're clearly much less expensive than heated roads.

Citation needed, a real one this time.

87% of American homes have air conditioning (https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=36692)


Flood control dams are a ubiquity, the best known one near me is the Charles River Dam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_River_Dam), erected in 1910 and replaced in 1978 by a better one. And we've already spoken at length about how Los Angeles brought its river to heel.

So we have lots of air conditioners and flood control systems, which wouldn't be the case if they weren't cost effective. How many places do you know that have heated roads?

You're the only person I've ever seen argue for mass use of heated roads.  So spin me a citation or proof of concept for them and their cost.  .

I'm not arguing for them.

So many levels of strawmen...

I was actually the first to mention heated roads, in reply #14.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 29, 2020, 02:48:14 PM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 29, 2020, 02:46:30 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 29, 2020, 02:13:20 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 27, 2020, 11:06:20 PM
What really pissed me off was back in February when we had that freakishly mild winter and the only thing the media seemed to care about was the plight of skiers.

And on that note
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/28/world/europe/austria-ski-crowds-lockdown.html

I'm confused how this makes a point in your own thread.

It's evidence that skiers do not deserve our sympathy.

Why, because they don't crawl into the fecal position over a virus? Maybe they should just stay in their parent's basements as well, cowering in fear, or maybe you need to toughen up and learn that sub-freezing temps won't kill you.

Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 29, 2020, 10:23:37 PM
At least one town in Michigan has a heated road system.

https://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/2016/02/why_holland_spends_millions_to.html

They've spent millions, to melt the snow in small parts of the city.  Not miles of roadway, only some city blocks.  Also, the heat currently comes from a coal-fired power plant - at least that is being replaced by natural gas.

Quote from: SectorZ on December 30, 2020, 07:33:16 AM
Why, because they don't crawl into the fecal position over a virus? ....

:rofl:  :wow: :rofl:  :wow: :rofl:  :wow: :rofl:  :wow:

Quote from: 1995hoo on December 30, 2020, 07:58:30 AM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 30, 2020, 07:33:16 AM
Why, because they don't crawl into the fecal position over a virus? ....

:rofl:  :wow: :rofl:  :wow: :rofl:  :wow: :rofl:  :wow:

That's a long-standing joke term that a former Boston sports radio host used to use. I enjoying using it.

Quote from: SectorZ on December 30, 2020, 08:06:45 AM

Quote from: 1995hoo on December 30, 2020, 07:58:30 AM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 30, 2020, 07:33:16 AM
Why, because they don't crawl into the fecal position over a virus? ....

:rofl:  :wow: :rofl:  :wow: :rofl:  :wow: :rofl:  :wow:

That's a long-standing joke term that a former Boston sports radio host used to use. I enjoying using it.

Ahhh. I assumed it was a typo or autocorrect in action.

Quote from: GaryV on December 30, 2020, 07:55:54 AM

Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 29, 2020, 10:23:37 PM
At least one town in Michigan has a heated road system.

https://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/2016/02/why_holland_spends_millions_to.html

They've spent millions, to melt the snow in small parts of the city.  Not miles of roadway, only some city blocks.  Also, the heat currently comes from a coal-fired power plant - at least that is being replaced by natural gas.

And eventually that will be replaced by solar power which requires much less water.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 30, 2020, 08:27:06 AM

Quote from: GaryV on December 30, 2020, 07:55:54 AM

Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 29, 2020, 10:23:37 PM
At least one town in Michigan has a heated road system.

https://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/2016/02/why_holland_spends_millions_to.html

They've spent millions, to melt the snow in small parts of the city.  Not miles of roadway, only some city blocks.  Also, the heat currently comes from a coal-fired power plant - at least that is being replaced by natural gas.

And eventually that will be replaced by solar power which requires much less water.

Michigan. Winter. Solar power. What can go wrong?

Quote from: GaryV on December 30, 2020, 07:55:54 AM

Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 29, 2020, 10:23:37 PM
At least one town in Michigan has a heated road system.

https://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/2016/02/why_holland_spends_millions_to.html

They've spent millions, to melt the snow in small parts of the city.  Not miles of roadway, only some city blocks.  Also, the heat currently comes from a coal-fired power plant - at least that is being replaced by natural gas.

I wonder if there is a way to use geothermal heat for this. It would still be expensive as hell but would not use carbon-intensive resources.

And by geothermal heating, I mean in the style that heats homes, not the electricity generated from hot water deep underground.

Kind of sounds like Kernals ideal world is one where we're all crowded into the warmest places on the planet such that the tropics resemble Coruscant (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Coruscant) and the rest of the planet is a series of canals and pipes feeding that population belt with fresh water and food.  Sorry to break it to you, but if you're gonna crowd 8 billion people like that, probably going to need some high quality mass transit, dude.
At least until they nail down the whole flying car thing.

Quote from: kalvado on December 30, 2020, 10:46:29 AM
Michigan. Winter. Solar power. What can go wrong?

Solar power might not work as well in Michigan (and other northern states) compared to elsewhere in the US, but it gets at least some sunlight. Massachusetts has solar panels, which corresponds to the latitude of southern Michigan, where most of the population is. If snow is an issue, create a sloped glass surface above it that will allow sunlight through but let snow slide to the bottom.

Quote from: kalvado on December 30, 2020, 10:46:29 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 30, 2020, 08:27:06 AM

Quote from: GaryV on December 30, 2020, 07:55:54 AM

Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 29, 2020, 10:23:37 PM
At least one town in Michigan has a heated road system.

https://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/2016/02/why_holland_spends_millions_to.html

They've spent millions, to melt the snow in small parts of the city.  Not miles of roadway, only some city blocks.  Also, the heat currently comes from a coal-fired power plant - at least that is being replaced by natural gas.

And eventually that will be replaced by solar power which requires much less water.

Michigan. Winter. Solar power. What can go wrong?

Our needs for electricity pale in comparison to the amount of energy the sun blasts at us, even in Michigan.

Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 30, 2020, 10:59:21 AM
Kind of sounds like Kernals ideal world is one where we're all crowded into the warmest places on the planet such that the tropics resemble Coruscant (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Coruscant) and the rest of the planet is a series of canals and pipes feeding that population belt with fresh water and food.  Sorry to break it to you, but if you're gonna crowd 8 billion people like that, probably going to need some high quality mass transit, dude.
At least until they nail down the whole flying car thing.

As Rothman said, many levels of strawman here.

Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 30, 2020, 10:59:21 AM
Kind of sounds like Kernals ideal world is one where we're all crowded into the warmest places on the planet such that the tropics resemble Coruscant (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Coruscant) and the rest of the planet is a series of canals and pipes feeding that population belt with fresh water and food.  Sorry to break it to you, but if you're gonna crowd 8 billion people like that, probably going to need some high quality mass transit, dude.
At least until they nail down the whole flying car thing.

Mile to 2 mile high skyscrapers, weather control satellites, and a government that eventually turns into the Galactic Empire

Quote from: 1 on December 30, 2020, 11:03:01 AM

Quote from: kalvado on December 30, 2020, 10:46:29 AM
Michigan. Winter. Solar power. What can go wrong?

Solar power might not work as well in Michigan (and other northern states) compared to elsewhere in the US, but it gets at least some sunlight. Massachusetts has solar panels, which corresponds to the latitude of southern Michigan, where most of the population is. If snow is an issue, create a sloped glass surface above it that will allow sunlight through but let snow slide to the bottom.

Actually, solar panels are only about 20% efficient, the rest of it is turned into heat, probably enough to melt most snow that accumulates on top.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 30, 2020, 11:11:09 AM

Quote from: 1 on December 30, 2020, 11:03:01 AM

Quote from: kalvado on December 30, 2020, 10:46:29 AM
Michigan. Winter. Solar power. What can go wrong?

Solar power might not work as well in Michigan (and other northern states) compared to elsewhere in the US, but it gets at least some sunlight. Massachusetts has solar panels, which corresponds to the latitude of southern Michigan, where most of the population is. If snow is an issue, create a sloped glass surface above it that will allow sunlight through but let snow slide to the bottom.

Actually, solar panels are only about 20% efficient, the rest of it is turned into heat, probably enough to melt most snow that accumulates on top.

You really don't get out much. I guess in those clustered rich people suburbs west of Boston where having those things on a roof is probably not Haute couture dress for them you wouldn't know. Come to north Billerica down the street from me where Pan Am Rail put in a crapload of them to power the rail depot. Even angled many of them had snow until the deluge of rain Christmas Eve and 60 degree temps pushed off the 15 inches of snow from a week earlier.

I have a degree in meteorology and every time you post something that doesn't remotely equate to the realities of the natural world I die a little inside.

Quote from: SectorZ on December 30, 2020, 12:17:45 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 30, 2020, 11:11:09 AM

Quote from: 1 on December 30, 2020, 11:03:01 AM

Quote from: kalvado on December 30, 2020, 10:46:29 AM
Michigan. Winter. Solar power. What can go wrong?

Solar power might not work as well in Michigan (and other northern states) compared to elsewhere in the US, but it gets at least some sunlight. Massachusetts has solar panels, which corresponds to the latitude of southern Michigan, where most of the population is. If snow is an issue, create a sloped glass surface above it that will allow sunlight through but let snow slide to the bottom.

Actually, solar panels are only about 20% efficient, the rest of it is turned into heat, probably enough to melt most snow that accumulates on top.

You really don't get out much. I guess in those clustered rich people suburbs west of Boston where having those things on a roof is probably not Haute couture dress for them you wouldn't know. Come to north Billerica down the street from me where Pan Am Rail put in a crapload of them to power the rail depot. Even angled many of them had snow until the deluge of rain Christmas Eve and 60 degree temps pushed off the 15 inches of snow from a week earlier.

I have a degree in meteorology and every time you post something that doesn't remotely equate to the realities of the natural world I die a little inside.

Does my idea of a sloped glass ceiling above it (for a large grid, not for houses) work to push the snow off to the side, or would there be problems with it?

Also, what's wrong with having grand ideas? I have a whole list of threads here (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=28153.msg2555441#msg2555441), and almost all of them turned out not to work. (I still don't advocate in favor of global warming though; that part is ridiculous.)

Quote from: 1 on December 30, 2020, 12:23:46 PM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 30, 2020, 12:17:45 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 30, 2020, 11:11:09 AM

Quote from: 1 on December 30, 2020, 11:03:01 AM

Quote from: kalvado on December 30, 2020, 10:46:29 AM
Michigan. Winter. Solar power. What can go wrong?

Solar power might not work as well in Michigan (and other northern states) compared to elsewhere in the US, but it gets at least some sunlight. Massachusetts has solar panels, which corresponds to the latitude of southern Michigan, where most of the population is. If snow is an issue, create a sloped glass surface above it that will allow sunlight through but let snow slide to the bottom.

Actually, solar panels are only about 20% efficient, the rest of it is turned into heat, probably enough to melt most snow that accumulates on top.

You really don't get out much. I guess in those clustered rich people suburbs west of Boston where having those things on a roof is probably not Haute couture dress for them you wouldn't know. Come to north Billerica down the street from me where Pan Am Rail put in a crapload of them to power the rail depot. Even angled many of them had snow until the deluge of rain Christmas Eve and 60 degree temps pushed off the 15 inches of snow from a week earlier.

I have a degree in meteorology and every time you post something that doesn't remotely equate to the realities of the natural world I die a little inside.

Does my idea of a sloped glass ceiling above it (for a large grid, not for houses) work to push the snow off to the side, or would there be problems with it?

Also, what's wrong with having grand ideas? I have a whole list of threads here (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=28153.msg2555441#msg2555441), and almost all of them turned out not to work. (I still don't advocate in favor of global warming though; that part is ridiculous.)

It probably could, but kernals12 thinking that somehow the heat generated from solar panels would melt the snow, without even considering that they generate nothing while covered in snow, is what set me off against him. My rant certainly wasn't directed at your ideas.

Quote from: SectorZ on December 30, 2020, 01:04:38 PM

Quote from: 1 on December 30, 2020, 12:23:46 PM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 30, 2020, 12:17:45 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 30, 2020, 11:11:09 AM

Quote from: 1 on December 30, 2020, 11:03:01 AM

Quote from: kalvado on December 30, 2020, 10:46:29 AM
Michigan. Winter. Solar power. What can go wrong?

Solar power might not work as well in Michigan (and other northern states) compared to elsewhere in the US, but it gets at least some sunlight. Massachusetts has solar panels, which corresponds to the latitude of southern Michigan, where most of the population is. If snow is an issue, create a sloped glass surface above it that will allow sunlight through but let snow slide to the bottom.

Actually, solar panels are only about 20% efficient, the rest of it is turned into heat, probably enough to melt most snow that accumulates on top.

You really don't get out much. I guess in those clustered rich people suburbs west of Boston where having those things on a roof is probably not Haute couture dress for them you wouldn't know. Come to north Billerica down the street from me where Pan Am Rail put in a crapload of them to power the rail depot. Even angled many of them had snow until the deluge of rain Christmas Eve and 60 degree temps pushed off the 15 inches of snow from a week earlier.

I have a degree in meteorology and every time you post something that doesn't remotely equate to the realities of the natural world I die a little inside.

Does my idea of a sloped glass ceiling above it (for a large grid, not for houses) work to push the snow off to the side, or would there be problems with it?

Also, what's wrong with having grand ideas? I have a whole list of threads here (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=28153.msg2555441#msg2555441), and almost all of them turned out not to work. (I still don't advocate in favor of global warming though; that part is ridiculous.)

It probably could, but kernals12 thinking that somehow the heat generated from solar panels would melt the snow, without even considering that they generate nothing while covered in snow, is what set me off against him. My rant certainly wasn't directed at your ideas.

I was imagining that the snow would melt before it accumulated.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 30, 2020, 01:09:41 PM
I was imagining that the snow would melt before it accumulated.

It's about the same - and probably worse than - self-cleaning of dark pavement or shingle roof. And the effect is non-existing at night. I may add that lots of snow usually means longer nights and shorter days.
Should be fairly obvious for someone with a high school diploma, I would say.

Quote from: kalvado on December 30, 2020, 10:46:29 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 30, 2020, 08:27:06 AM

Quote from: GaryV on December 30, 2020, 07:55:54 AM

Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 29, 2020, 10:23:37 PM
At least one town in Michigan has a heated road system.

https://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/2016/02/why_holland_spends_millions_to.html

They've spent millions, to melt the snow in small parts of the city.  Not miles of roadway, only some city blocks.  Also, the heat currently comes from a coal-fired power plant - at least that is being replaced by natural gas.

And eventually that will be replaced by solar power which requires much less water.

Michigan. Winter. Solar power. What can go wrong?

They'll just heat the solar panels with the warm water to melt the snow on them.  Oh wait - when they switch to solar, there won't be any hot water any more.

Not to mention that Holland gets about 29 hours total sunlight from November to March.

Quote from: GaryV on December 30, 2020, 02:39:06 PM
Not to mention that Holland gets about 29 hours total sunlight from November to March.

Do you mean 29 days? All it takes to reach 29 hours of sunlight is 3-4 days without precipitation or overcast.

Quote from: SectorZ on December 30, 2020, 10:54:03 AM

Quote from: GaryV on December 30, 2020, 07:55:54 AM

Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 29, 2020, 10:23:37 PM
At least one town in Michigan has a heated road system.

https://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/2016/02/why_holland_spends_millions_to.html

They've spent millions, to melt the snow in small parts of the city.  Not miles of roadway, only some city blocks.  Also, the heat currently comes from a coal-fired power plant - at least that is being replaced by natural gas.

I wonder if there is a way to use geothermal heat for this. It would still be expensive as hell but would not use carbon-intensive resources.

And by geothermal heating, I mean in the style that heats homes, not the electricity generated from hot water deep underground.

Your home is insulated to keep heat in during winter, sidewalks and roads aren't. Your idea would probably cool the ground more than it would warm the roads.

Quote from: 1 on December 30, 2020, 02:41:44 PM

Quote from: GaryV on December 30, 2020, 02:39:06 PM
Not to mention that Holland gets about 29 hours total sunlight from November to March.

Do you mean 29 days? All it takes to reach 29 hours of sunlight is 3-4 days without precipitation or overcast.

No, hours (ok, maybe I exaggerated a little).  But it is overcast almost continuously due to lake effect.

When I was in college, a prof stopped mid-lecture sometime in October and said, "Look outside.  This might be the last time you see the sun until March."  The locals shrugged, yeah. so?  That was the first I realized that other areas of the country get sunshine in the winter.

This thread is a nonsense tornado.

What gets me about the Holland snow melt system is that heat pollution from power plants, particularly nuclear ones, is a serious problem. The Vermont Yankee Nuclear Plant created a thermal plume on the Connecticut River that reached as far south as Holyoke, Massachusetts, devastating aquatic life. The traditional solution has been to build cooling towers that dump the heat into the air rather than the water. But using it for snow removal seems less wasteful. And since it eliminates the need for road salt, it solves two environmental problems at once.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 30, 2020, 02:53:31 PM
What gets me about the Holland snow melt system is that heat pollution from power plants, particularly nuclear ones, is a serious problem. The Vermont Yankee Nuclear Plant created a thermal plume on the Connecticut River that reached as far south as Holyoke, Massachusetts, devastating aquatic life. The traditional solution has been to build cooling towers that dump the heat into the air rather than the water. But using it for snow removal seems less wasteful. And since it eliminates the need for road salt, it solves two environmental problems at once.

Can you estimate costs? Use you (parents') water bill for comparison

Quote from: kernals12 on December 30, 2020, 02:44:36 PM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 30, 2020, 10:54:03 AM

Quote from: GaryV on December 30, 2020, 07:55:54 AM

Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 29, 2020, 10:23:37 PM
At least one town in Michigan has a heated road system.

https://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/2016/02/why_holland_spends_millions_to.html

They've spent millions, to melt the snow in small parts of the city.  Not miles of roadway, only some city blocks.  Also, the heat currently comes from a coal-fired power plant - at least that is being replaced by natural gas.

I wonder if there is a way to use geothermal heat for this. It would still be expensive as hell but would not use carbon-intensive resources.

And by geothermal heating, I mean in the style that heats homes, not the electricity generated from hot water deep underground.

Your home is insulated to keep heat in during winter, sidewalks and roads aren't. Your idea would probably cool the ground more than it would warm the roads.

Underground water is roughly 55 degrees, how the f*** would 55 degree water cool roads below, say, 35 degrees?

You're only making my point that you have a woeful understanding of even the most basic parts of Earth sciences. You could have google searched this but instead just decided for this instead.

Quote from: SectorZ on December 30, 2020, 05:11:27 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 30, 2020, 02:44:36 PM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 30, 2020, 10:54:03 AM

Quote from: GaryV on December 30, 2020, 07:55:54 AM

Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 29, 2020, 10:23:37 PM
At least one town in Michigan has a heated road system.

https://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/2016/02/why_holland_spends_millions_to.html

They've spent millions, to melt the snow in small parts of the city.  Not miles of roadway, only some city blocks.  Also, the heat currently comes from a coal-fired power plant - at least that is being replaced by natural gas.

I wonder if there is a way to use geothermal heat for this. It would still be expensive as hell but would not use carbon-intensive resources.

And by geothermal heating, I mean in the style that heats homes, not the electricity generated from hot water deep underground.

Your home is insulated to keep heat in during winter, sidewalks and roads aren't. Your idea would probably cool the ground more than it would warm the roads.

Underground water is roughly 55 degrees, how the f*** would 55 degree water cool roads below, say, 35 degrees?

You're only making my point that you have a woeful understanding of even the most basic parts of Earth sciences. You could have google searched this but instead just decided for this instead.

I said it would cool the ground, not the roads. After your 55 degree water is exposed to 35 degree ambient temperatures, it would not be 55 degrees anymore.

So much here that I can't go back and quote, but to touch on a few topics:

Quoteconstruction season

For large grade and drain projects, Kentucky awards road construction projects with completion dates specified as a certain number of "working days." This excludes the months of December through March, along with inclement weather days during the other eight months. But many of the crews will work during the winter if the weather cooperates (and some work, like tree clearing, has to be done in the winter due to bat habitat regulations). We've been able to get some projects completed ahead of the calendar estimates if crews were able to work during winter months if we had mild temperatures and light precipitation.

Quotehome temperatures

Do homes in Florida have heating systems? This is a serious question. I know it rarely gets really cold in Florida, so i wonder if homes are built with heating systems, or do people rely on space heaters or portable kerosene heating units if they encounter a cool snap?

Quoteheated roads

We had "magic sidewalks" on the campus of Morehead State University. Many of the dorms were heated via a steam system, and the steam pipes ran from the central plant to the dorms under the sidewalks. So the main sidewalks from one end of campus to the other stayed clear of snow in the winter. Of course the heat got turned on at a certain time of year, and turned off at a certain time of the year, in a central location. So if it turned cool before officlal heating season, or a cool snap happened after the heat was turned off, the dorms were cold unless you had a space heater in your room.

When I lived in Key West I didn't have a heater.  The one time it dipped into the 40s after a major storm it was pretty damn miserable not having it due to the lack of insulation.  I had a heater in Orlando and when I lived north of Tampa.  It wasn't too uncommon to see nights in the 30s (sometimes the 20s) during the winter on the mainland.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 30, 2020, 05:15:08 PM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 30, 2020, 05:11:27 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 30, 2020, 02:44:36 PM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 30, 2020, 10:54:03 AM

Quote from: GaryV on December 30, 2020, 07:55:54 AM

Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 29, 2020, 10:23:37 PM
At least one town in Michigan has a heated road system.

https://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/2016/02/why_holland_spends_millions_to.html

They've spent millions, to melt the snow in small parts of the city.  Not miles of roadway, only some city blocks.  Also, the heat currently comes from a coal-fired power plant - at least that is being replaced by natural gas.

I wonder if there is a way to use geothermal heat for this. It would still be expensive as hell but would not use carbon-intensive resources.

And by geothermal heating, I mean in the style that heats homes, not the electricity generated from hot water deep underground.

Your home is insulated to keep heat in during winter, sidewalks and roads aren't. Your idea would probably cool the ground more than it would warm the roads.

Underground water is roughly 55 degrees, how the f*** would 55 degree water cool roads below, say, 35 degrees?

You're only making my point that you have a woeful understanding of even the most basic parts of Earth sciences. You could have google searched this but instead just decided for this instead.

I said it would cool the ground, not the roads. After your 55 degree water is exposed to 35 degree ambient temperatures, it would not be 55 degrees anymore.

How would warm water cool the ground or the roads? The ground is coldest at the surface due to its interaction with cold air. The point of a closed geothermal loop would be to warm from underneath without directly exposing it to the cold air, with the loop circulating the warm water upward and the cool water downward. Water retains heat much better, six times the rate of air. Also, the loops would be under the roads, not ground without a road above it, hence there is no ground to "cool".

I know we're talking theoretical tech here, but for the love of all that is holy look up how a geothermal heating system works.

Quote from: SectorZ on December 30, 2020, 07:19:34 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 30, 2020, 05:15:08 PM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 30, 2020, 05:11:27 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on December 30, 2020, 02:44:36 PM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 30, 2020, 10:54:03 AM

Quote from: GaryV on December 30, 2020, 07:55:54 AM

Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 29, 2020, 10:23:37 PM
At least one town in Michigan has a heated road system.

https://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/2016/02/why_holland_spends_millions_to.html

They've spent millions, to melt the snow in small parts of the city.  Not miles of roadway, only some city blocks.  Also, the heat currently comes from a coal-fired power plant - at least that is being replaced by natural gas.

I wonder if there is a way to use geothermal heat for this. It would still be expensive as hell but would not use carbon-intensive resources.

And by geothermal heating, I mean in the style that heats homes, not the electricity generated from hot water deep underground.

Your home is insulated to keep heat in during winter, sidewalks and roads aren't. Your idea would probably cool the ground more than it would warm the roads.

Underground water is roughly 55 degrees, how the f*** would 55 degree water cool roads below, say, 35 degrees?

You're only making my point that you have a woeful understanding of even the most basic parts of Earth sciences. You could have google searched this but instead just decided for this instead.

I said it would cool the ground, not the roads. After your 55 degree water is exposed to 35 degree ambient temperatures, it would not be 55 degrees anymore.

How would warm water cool the ground or the roads? The ground is coldest at the surface due to its interaction with cold air. The point of a closed geothermal loop would be to warm from underneath without directly exposing it to the cold air, with the loop circulating the warm water upward and the cool water downward. Water retains heat much better, six times the rate of air. Also, the loops would be under the roads, not ground without a road above it, hence there is no ground to "cool".

I know we're talking theoretical tech here, but for the love of all that is holy look up how a geothermal heating system works.

Heat transfer. In the same way that opening the door of your 70 degree house when it's 30 degrees outside will make your house colder, not warm up the outdoors.

Quote from: SectorZ on December 30, 2020, 12:17:45 PM
I have a degree in meteorology and every time you post something that doesn't remotely equate to the realities of the natural world I die a little inside.

As a meteorology student myself I feel the exact same thing.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 30, 2020, 07:35:11 PM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 30, 2020, 07:19:34 PM
How would warm water cool the ground or the roads? The ground is coldest at the surface due to its interaction with cold air. The point of a closed geothermal loop would be to warm from underneath without directly exposing it to the cold air, with the loop circulating the warm water upward and the cool water downward. Water retains heat much better, six times the rate of air. Also, the loops would be under the roads, not ground without a road above it, hence there is no ground to "cool".

I know we're talking theoretical tech here, but for the love of all that is holy look up how a geothermal heating system works.

Heat transfer. In the same way that opening the door of your 70 degree house when it's 30 degrees outside will make your house colder, not warm up the outdoors.

I'm not sure I even understand what you're trying to say. You're saying that if I send water into the earth, it warms up, then I bring it back up to the surface where it's colder, it will cool the air around it? The point of a geothermal heating system is to transfer some of that ambient heat underground up to the surface where the environmental temperature is colder.

Quote from: US 89 on December 30, 2020, 07:43:35 PM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 30, 2020, 12:17:45 PM
I have a degree in meteorology and every time you post something that doesn't remotely equate to the realities of the natural world I die a little inside.

As a meteorology student myself I feel the exact same thing.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 30, 2020, 07:35:11 PM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 30, 2020, 07:19:34 PM
How would warm water cool the ground or the roads? The ground is coldest at the surface due to its interaction with cold air. The point of a closed geothermal loop would be to warm from underneath without directly exposing it to the cold air, with the loop circulating the warm water upward and the cool water downward. Water retains heat much better, six times the rate of air. Also, the loops would be under the roads, not ground without a road above it, hence there is no ground to "cool".

I know we're talking theoretical tech here, but for the love of all that is holy look up how a geothermal heating system works.

Heat transfer. In the same way that opening the door of your 70 degree house when it's 30 degrees outside will make your house colder, not warm up the outdoors.

I'm not sure I even understand what you're trying to say. You're saying that if I send water into the earth, it warms up, then I bring it back up to the surface where it's colder, it will cool the air around it? The point of a geothermal heating system is to transfer some of that ambient heat underground up to the surface where the environmental temperature is colder.

No I'm saying the air around it will cool the water. And given how much heat you'd need to transfer from the ground to the road to keep it above freezing, I'm saying you'll quickly run out of heat in the ground it would fall to ambient temperature.

Quote from: kernals12 on December 30, 2020, 07:57:33 PM
No I'm saying the air around it will cool the water. And given how much heat you'd need to transfer from the ground to the road to keep it above freezing, I'm saying you'll quickly run out of heat in the ground it would fall to ambient temperature.

Keep in mind that the specific heat of water is higher than any other common substance (and a LOT higher than that of air).  There's a reason why water of a given temperature feels significantly colder than air at the same temperature.

Quote from: US 89 on December 30, 2020, 07:43:35 PM

Quote from: SectorZ on December 30, 2020, 12:17:45 PM
I have a degree in meteorology and every time you post something that doesn't remotely equate to the realities of the natural world I die a little inside.

As a meteorology student myself I feel the exact same thing.

As a met alum, I feel the same way. As Rothman said, "This thread is a nonsense tornado."

Tony the Tiger said Frosted Flakes are "grrrreat", and holds Humid Flakes and Heat Flakes in such contempt that he has no comment on them. Therefore the OP is wrong and the thread is over.

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 01, 2021, 04:41:07 AM
Tony the Tiger said Frosted Flakes are "grrrreat", and holds Humid Flakes and Heat Flakes in such contempt that he has no comment on them. Therefore the OP is wrong and the thread is over.

When Lou Gramm sang about a girl he didn't like, he said she was "cold as ice". But when he was super horny, he said he was "hot blooded". Therefore I am right, and now the thread is over.

Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 27, 2020, 09:38:04 AM
OP seems to be forgetting about the "heat tax" that was much more severe before the advent of air conditioning. There are plenty of natural ways to heat a space, you can use a wood stove or a fireplace. There are few natural ways to make a place like Florida remotely bearable in the summer. Old Southern architecture is a testament to the many ways that people tried to keep those places cool. A lot of the things that make "nice weather" places bearable are there because of technology and terraforming by humans. Get rid of even air conditioning and no one thinks of Miami as a "nice weather" place.

There are also the environmental hazards that these places used to present. Warm and muggy places, such as Florida, had to deal with malaria and other diseases that were rampant in hot, swampy environments. Malaria was even a threat in DC and a real worry for early occupants of the White House. Places like Arizona had to deal with a lack of water, which again is also bad. The only reason that humans can live in these places is because of us draining the swamps in Florida and the greater South, diverting water resources in the Southwest, and the widespread use of air conditioning.

The heat tax is pretty severe on the surrounding environment.

That's not natural

Quote from: kernals12 on January 01, 2021, 09:42:08 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 01, 2021, 04:41:07 AM
Tony the Tiger said Frosted Flakes are "grrrreat", and holds Humid Flakes and Heat Flakes in such contempt that he has no comment on them. Therefore the OP is wrong and the thread is over.

When Lou Gramm sang about a girl he didn't like, he said she was "cold as ice". But when he was super horny, he said he was "hot blooded". Therefore I am right, and now the thread is over.

Foreigner also had a scantily clad woman draped over urinals in a men's bathroom on an album cover. I wouldn't take Lou Gramm for advice on how to view women...

Quote from: kernals12 on January 01, 2021, 09:42:08 AM
Therefore I am right, and now the thread is over.

you got it, chief