HAWK Thread

Started by MCRoads, December 11, 2017, 10:17:20 AM

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What cycle do you like?

original HAWK
modified HAWK
what is a HAWK signal?
I like RYG ped signals.

tradephoric

Quote from: rickmastfan67 on February 16, 2018, 11:21:52 AM
1/3rd? lol.  Looks like more than 50% here. :(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdMoDfLcWSE

WOW.  That is a lot of people just blowing through that solid red HAWK at the end of that video... and that's not even at the exiting lane of a roundabout.  The driver's mentality seems to be.. "well if i don't see a pedestrian in the crosswalk, I'm not stopping".


jeffandnicole

Quote from: tradephoric on February 16, 2018, 11:30:34 AM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on February 16, 2018, 11:21:52 AM
1/3rd? lol.  Looks like more than 50% here. :(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdMoDfLcWSE

WOW.  That is a lot of people just blowing through that solid red HAWK at the end of that video... and that's not even at the exiting lane of a roundabout.  The driver's mentality seems to be.. "well if i don't see a pedestrian in the crosswalk, I'm not stopping".

I sometimes attribute that to the "following the leader" syndrome.  If one person did it, then we can all do it.  I've seen motorists do that at standard intersections - if one person goes thru a red by mistake (often times, they see the green arrow light up and for whatever reason think they got the green light), then the next person or two or three go thru as well, as if they're not even paying attention.

It appeared a few of the cars in the video actually slowed down at least, or even stopped.  Since the video doesn't actually show the motorist at the stop line, we can't see what they actually did.  None of that excludes the fact that the motorist should have remained stopped though at the solid red.

And the flashing red - being that the sign says "STOP ON RED", it's hard to fault the driver for not moving when the lights are still flashing red.  The sign is incomplete.

Revive 755

Quote from: roadfro on December 13, 2017, 11:03:56 AM
That sign ("Crosswalk / Stop On Red / Proceed on Flashing Red When Clear") is actually approved by FHWA as a clarification/interim approval to the 2009 MUTCD. Even still, that doesn't convey the full message that each car is supposed to stop during the flashing red--that sign can be interpreted as you can go through during flashing red without stopping as long as the peds are cleared.

Utah has a much better version of the sign that I wish FHWA would have used as a basis for the sign in the interpretation.  See Page 498/587 of the 10 MB Utah Standard Highway Signs Supplement pdf

roadfro

Quote from: Revive 755 on February 17, 2018, 12:21:27 PM
Quote from: roadfro on December 13, 2017, 11:03:56 AM
That sign ("Crosswalk / Stop On Red / Proceed on Flashing Red When Clear") is actually approved by FHWA as a clarification/interim approval to the 2009 MUTCD. Even still, that doesn't convey the full message that each car is supposed to stop during the flashing red--that sign can be interpreted as you can go through during flashing red without stopping as long as the peds are cleared.

Utah has a much better version of the sign that I wish FHWA would have used as a basis for the sign in the interpretation.  See Page 498/587 of the 10 MB Utah Standard Highway Signs Supplement pdf

That Utah sign is a bit of improvement in the overall instruction, but it is much more to process. "STOP / on flashing / red (red ball) / proceed if clear" does give a clearer message though.

I'd just be happy to switch to a Pelican crossing. I don't see the need for each successive car to stop if pedestrians have already cleared...
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

mrsman

Quote from: roadfro on February 18, 2018, 01:10:46 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on February 17, 2018, 12:21:27 PM
Quote from: roadfro on December 13, 2017, 11:03:56 AM
That sign ("Crosswalk / Stop On Red / Proceed on Flashing Red When Clear") is actually approved by FHWA as a clarification/interim approval to the 2009 MUTCD. Even still, that doesn't convey the full message that each car is supposed to stop during the flashing red--that sign can be interpreted as you can go through during flashing red without stopping as long as the peds are cleared.

Utah has a much better version of the sign that I wish FHWA would have used as a basis for the sign in the interpretation.  See Page 498/587 of the 10 MB Utah Standard Highway Signs Supplement pdf

That Utah sign is a bit of improvement in the overall instruction, but it is much more to process. "STOP / on flashing / red (red ball) / proceed if clear" does give a clearer message though.

I'd just be happy to switch to a Pelican crossing. I don't see the need for each successive car to stop if pedestrians have already cleared...

I think that's brilliant and a whole lot safer.

For all mid-block signalized crossings (and crossings where the side street is one-way away from the main street), follow the pelican crossing:
MAIN:  GREEN - YELLOW - RED      -  FL YELLOW - GREEN   (with short "all-red" phases at each red to green phase)
SIDE:   DW       -  DW      -  WALK  -  FDW          -  DW

The safest part is that it meets driver expectations when they see a green light, they know that the light may eventually turn yellow and red.  The city of Los Angeles mid-block crossings are somewhat similar, except that the FL YELLOW is replaced with FL RED, but to your point the FL YELLOW makes more sense as at this point in the crossing, there are likely no pedestrians left to cross.  (In my experience, the vast majority of peds cross at the beginning of the crossing and usually cross faster than the 3 ft/sec timing that keeps cars waiting for the light to turn green.  Hence the stale red light that is better replaced with a flashing yellow assuming that there are no cars on the side street crossing.)


I beleive that modified signals should be outlawed at regular intersections.  There are some HAWKS out there at regular intersections where main street faces a HAWK and side street peds have a ped crossing and side street vehicles face a stop sign.  These are designed to stop main street traffic without inducing side street traffic with green lights.

Here is one in DC at Connecticut/Northampton just south of the Chevy Chase Circle: 
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9658337,-77.0758445,3a,75y,270.08h,91.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sua4eBrwuc8U95DzLuDLSzQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

These are wrong.  If there is heavy pedestrian traffic at such an intersection, regular traffic signal should be installed, but side street traffic should be controlled to force side street traffic to turn right on the main street.  (And maybe add a warning sign that side street does not see a green light at every traffic cycle since likely there is no side street sensor other than the pedestrian button at such crossings.)

In short, if you want drivers to absolutely stop for peds at a crossing, and you are going to put in some types of signal the drivers need to see both a red light and a green light somewhere in their cycle.  The green light doesn't merely tell the drivers to go, it also warns them that this light may eventually turn yellow and red. Dark signaled HAWKS or constant flashing yellows [at modified firehouse signals that are HAWK substitutes in MD and other states] fail to communicate to drivers that the light may eventually turn red, which is why they don't stop, like in the video forwarded by rickmastfan67.

NoGoodNamesAvailable

Something that always peeved me about HAWKs is how the flashing phase looks exactly like flashing railroad crossing lights, and yet the expected behavior is very much something we don't want people doing at railroad crossings. Was this not considered when the hybrid beacon was approved? Maybe I'm looking too far into it.

freebrickproductions

Quote from: NoGoodNamesAvailable on April 09, 2018, 04:49:22 PM
Something that always peeved me about HAWKs is how the flashing phase looks exactly like flashing railroad crossing lights, and yet the expected behavior is very much something we don't want people doing at railroad crossings. Was this not considered when the hybrid beacon was approved? Maybe I'm looking too far into it.
Actually, the flashing on both signals means the exact same thing: stop and proceed when clear. In fact, many beacons here in Alabama use two red lights that alternate.
It's all fun & games until someone summons Cthulhu and brings about the end of the world.

I also collect traffic lights, road signs, fans, and railroad crossing equipment.

(They/Them)

vdeane

Even though that's the legal meaning, I'm pretty sure most people are taught to stop and wait for the lights to go off and gates to go back up when at a railroad crossing.  In fact, I'm pretty sure most people don't even realize that railroad crossings with flashing lights but no gates or bells even exist.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

NoGoodNamesAvailable

To revive a dead thread, I tried to come up with concise regulatory signage for a HAWK beacon that better explains the flashing red phase. Thoughts?


jakeroot

Quote from: rickmastfan67 on February 16, 2018, 11:21:52 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdMoDfLcWSE

The setup in that video is very peculiar. The near-side signals are two-head red and amber displays (no idea how they work), and no far side mast/post signals are used, period. This is extremely unusual for California, even at unique setups. Even some of the HAWKs in Washington have supplemental signals.

San Bruno intersection in question: https://goo.gl/hRmHrw


mrsman

It is peculiar.  It seems from the clip of the video that the supplemental red and yellow light follows what the main HAWK light does, just with 2 lights instead of 3.

So the supplemental light goes from dark > fl yellow > solid yellow > solid red > fl red > dark.

The one question is whether the flashing red is in sync with the left red HAWK signal or the right red HAWK signal.

In any event, I don't like these.  See my post a little upthread where I strongly prefer the L.A. version or the PELICAN signal to deal with this situation.

Amtrakprod

Quote from: UCFKnights on December 13, 2017, 07:24:22 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 13, 2017, 01:48:41 PM
Quote from: Brandon on December 13, 2017, 01:37:23 PM
I'd simplify the HAWK phases based on what drivers are taught to do.

1. Flashing yellow: caution, it's a pedestrian crossing.
2. Solid yellow: button has been pushed and pedestrian ready to cross.
3. Solid red: stop, wait for pedestrians.
4. Flashing red: stop, look for pedestrians, proceed if clear.

Then back to flashing yellow.

IMHO, people would be less likely to notice the change from flashing yellow to solid yellow with that scheme. They would be more likely with the actual HAWK scheme because the signal has just "come alive" from being dark and so they're already paying attention to it.
For this argument, why is this not the case with emergency signals like at fire stations? I feel HAWKs should fully match those, possibly with the added flashing red phase at the end before returning to flashing yellow in the bottom of a 3 segment light.
Lots of places use EMERGENCY SIGNAL HAWKs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTHnDhkTV8c
This one is set up not correctly.
Roadgeek, railfan, and crossing signal fan. From Massachusetts, and in high school. Youtube is my website link. Loves FYAs signals. Interest in Bicycle Infrastructure. Owns one Leotech Pedestrian Signal, and a Safetran Type 1 E bell.

NoGoodNamesAvailable

Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 11, 2018, 01:48:22 PM
Lots of places use EMERGENCY SIGNAL HAWKs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTHnDhkTV8c
This one is set up not correctly.

This is beyond inane. Talk about fixing something that isn't broken, this is way more confusing than a standard 3-section signal.

Which brings me back to my huge problem with HAWKs–every signal indication they convey could be conveyed far more intuitively with a standard 3-head signal–Bottom light flashes amber in rest mode; middle amber light comes on when actuated, then red, then flashing red and back to rest mode. HAWKs are reinventing the wheel.

MCRoads

This thread will never quite die, will it?
I build roads on Minecraft. Like, really good roads.
Interstates traveled:
4/5/10*/11**/12**/15/25*/29*/35(E/W[TX])/40*/44**/49(LA**)/55*/64**/65/66*/70°/71*76(PA*,CO*)/78*°/80*/95°/99(PA**,NY**)

*/** indicates a terminus/termini being traveled
° Indicates a gap (I.E Breezwood, PA.)

more room plz

jakeroot

#39
Quote from: MCRoads on November 11, 2018, 08:39:25 PM
This thread will never quite die, will it?

Why should it? It's not even a year old, and barely over a page and a half long.

For the record, it's kind of become a generic HAWK thread.

Amtrakprod

Quote from: NoGoodNamesAvailable on June 10, 2018, 11:43:32 PM
To revive a dead thread, I tried to come up with concise regulatory signage for a HAWK beacon that better explains the flashing red phase. Thoughts?


It's good, but it never explained how your supposed to yield to Peds after stopping
Roadgeek, railfan, and crossing signal fan. From Massachusetts, and in high school. Youtube is my website link. Loves FYAs signals. Interest in Bicycle Infrastructure. Owns one Leotech Pedestrian Signal, and a Safetran Type 1 E bell.

rickmastfan67

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRpb5ViND1o

Stanley Roberts is back, and now in AZ on this subject.

MNHighwayMan

The comments on that YouTube video prove that even a simple light like that can confuse idiots.

Roadwarriors79

You can all thank the city of Tucson for the HAWK signals. I was living there at the time when they were first being developed. I didn't think they would ever be used nationwide. Pelican signals would have been better because most people can understand a simple red-yellow-green traffic light.

jakeroot

Quote from: Roadwarriors79 on November 17, 2018, 10:20:27 AM
You can all thank the city of Tucson for the HAWK signals. I was living there at the time when they were first being developed. I didn't think they would ever be used nationwide. Pelican signals would have been better because most people can understand a simple red-yellow-green traffic light.

As you know, Tucson normally has my admiration. but I don't know if I can ever forgive them for inventing this signal. I appreciate somebody trying to come up with a signal that doesn't require drivers to remain stopped throughout the entire walk signal, but I don't know if the HAWK is an ideal middle ground.

Amtrakprod

#45
Another way I think would be more clear, is to have both signals flash red at once, no alternating. The alternating can be confused with grade crossings. This is a better way:

go to 1:09 to see the phase
Roadgeek, railfan, and crossing signal fan. From Massachusetts, and in high school. Youtube is my website link. Loves FYAs signals. Interest in Bicycle Infrastructure. Owns one Leotech Pedestrian Signal, and a Safetran Type 1 E bell.

jakeroot

Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 17, 2018, 07:11:35 PM
Another way I think would be more clear, is to have both signals flash red at once, no alternating. The alternating can be confused with grade crossings. This is a better way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHihP2t5mdQ
go to 1:09 to see the phase

Interesting. At that point, you may as well install a two-orb signal, where the bottom is amber and the top is red. Bottom amber would flash 24/7, and the top would go red when walk sign is on. Then to flashing red for a bit, and then back to flashing yellow. Might even be allowed under current regulation.

Jet380

Quote from: jakeroot on November 18, 2018, 07:27:01 PM
Interesting. At that point, you may as well install a two-orb signal, where the bottom is amber and the top is red. Bottom amber would flash 24/7, and the top would go red when walk sign is on. Then to flashing red for a bit, and then back to flashing yellow. Might even be allowed under current regulation.

And at that point, you may as well add a green aspect and it becomes a modified pelican crossing.

Amtrakprod

Quote from: Jet380 on November 19, 2018, 08:11:51 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 18, 2018, 07:27:01 PM
Interesting. At that point, you may as well install a two-orb signal, where the bottom is amber and the top is red. Bottom amber would flash 24/7, and the top would go red when walk sign is on. Then to flashing red for a bit, and then back to flashing yellow. Might even be allowed under current regulation.

And at that point, you may as well add a green aspect and it becomes a modified pelican crossing.

You can't just double at that point lol.
Roadgeek, railfan, and crossing signal fan. From Massachusetts, and in high school. Youtube is my website link. Loves FYAs signals. Interest in Bicycle Infrastructure. Owns one Leotech Pedestrian Signal, and a Safetran Type 1 E bell.

US 89

Quote from: Jet380 on November 19, 2018, 08:11:51 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 18, 2018, 07:27:01 PM
Interesting. At that point, you may as well install a two-orb signal, where the bottom is amber and the top is red. Bottom amber would flash 24/7, and the top would go red when walk sign is on. Then to flashing red for a bit, and then back to flashing yellow. Might even be allowed under current regulation.

And at that point, you may as well add a green aspect and it becomes a modified pelican crossing.

Another thing you could do is have a three-section signal, but make the bottom a flashing yellow instead of green (similar to a flashing yellow arrow). The middle solid yellow would be to emphasize a change from flashing yellow to solid red. I see it working like this:

flashing yellow --> solid yellow --> solid red --> flashing red --> flashing yellow --> etc...



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