Brands you feel you have an attachment to

[Max Rockatansky]

Sorry, I meant that it's a millennial thing to go tens of thousands of dollars into financial debt to get the same college degree that every other one of your peers has, then expect to have a high-paying job in your career field waiting for you when you graduate, then complain about how hard it is to make it financially.

Which is kind of the point I was getting at above.  A trend I've noticed with employers is that they are tending value career experience over paper degrees.  That's a decidedly different mindset than what I grew up in.  For a time it seemed all that mattered was having a degree and didn't matter how much actual experience someone had.  To that end it seemed a lot of Baby Boomers around the turn of the century were pushed out jobs or advancement in fields they worked in for decades simply because they didn't have degrees.  Now a college degree is essentially worthless unless you can obtain the career experience to back it up.  It's almost better to just attempting to find something entry level in your career field of choice these days and attempting to get a degree part time or if at all. 

[kphoger]

My generation (remember, I'm a millennial) was constantly told by our elders that we should get a college degree if we ever wanted to get a decent-paying job.  At my first college class, the teacher asked us all to share why we were in college.  One of the students said "I'm in college because, well, that's what you do after high school, right?"  And that pretty much summed up how my generation thought of college.  To boot, that was a private university, and a lot us were racking up serious debt in the process.  (I was fortunate enough to have zero student loans, and also to flunk out my first year because not going to class isn't a good path to success.)

Fast forward a decade or two, and–surprise!–there's a glut of people with college degrees expecting to fill career positions that are much fewer in number than the people seeking them.  By and large, this glut of people are carrying a huge financial debt and no foreseeable way to pay it off.

I'm not saying it's the fault of millennials that they had that mindset going in.  It's probably the fault of our parents.  But it's a millennial thing nonetheless.

It's almost better to just attempting to find something entry level in your career field of choice these days and attempting to get a degree part time or if at all. 

Skilled trades are arguably a better career path these days.

[Max Rockatansky]

^^^

See that's the interesting thing, you were getting a totally different message on college and career paths.  Pretty much all the teachers at school, parents, and really anyone of consequence were emphasizing trying to get in skilled position (which makes sense given the Automotive industry was still a big player in Michigan) rather than wasting money on college.  Hell, the military was pushed as an alternate option for those who wanted to go to college but didn't could get scholarships.  It wasn't lost on anyone that anything white collar would require a degree but it definitely wasn't pushed like I'm to understand it is now.  Maybe that was just a regional difference?  Either way there seem to be a variance with people of roughly the same age born in the 1980s in terms of the career advice they were getting.

[formulanone]

Sorry, I meant that it's a millennial thing to go tens of thousands of dollars into financial debt to get the same college degree that every other one of your peers has, then expect to have a high-paying job in your career field waiting for you when you graduate, then complain about how hard it is to make it financially.

I knew lots of Gen-Xers who thought the same. Many were amazed that most post-graduation jobs paid roughly $20-30K/year.

[Beltway]

No, it's a millennial thing to live in your parents' house till you're 30 years old because, despite having a degree, you can't get a job that pays enough to afford housing that isn't at least six counties away from your job, then take a number of "mental health days" because your position is responsible for a workload that was split between four employees in 2008, consolidated into one position during the financial crisis, and the department has never been restaffed since then because the CEO needs that money to make payments on his eleventh yacht.

I could name a list of millennials I know that have well-paying jobs and have lived in their own home since 18 or 22, some own a house, and some are married with children.

I could name a list of Virginians that don't miss the point of my post.

What is the point that you are trying to make?

Rather than criticizing millennials like some are wont to do, I made some positive and uplifting statements.  A lot are doing very well, per various reports.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

Is it really that much to ask that a full time entry level job pay more than about $20K a year?

[Scott5114]

No, it's a millennial thing to live in your parents' house till you're 30 years old because, despite having a degree, you can't get a job that pays enough to afford housing that isn't at least six counties away from your job, then take a number of "mental health days" because your position is responsible for a workload that was split between four employees in 2008, consolidated into one position during the financial crisis, and the department has never been restaffed since then because the CEO needs that money to make payments on his eleventh yacht.

I could name a list of millennials I know that have well-paying jobs and have lived in their own home since 18 or 22, some own a house, and some are married with children.

I could name a list of Virginians that don't miss the point of my post.

What is the point that you are trying to make?

Rather than criticizing millennials like some are wont to do, I made some positive and uplifting statements.  A lot are doing very well, per various reports.

It's cool that you have one or two friends that are doing well for themselves. That's not the experience of the majority, so citing those examples isn't really uplifting, it just serves to shit on those that aren't.

[hbelkins]

But on the other hand...are the benefits Apple provides really worth the price premium they command over comparable non-Apple products? If not...that's marketing for you.

Well, given the fact that I already have an investment in iOS apps and chargers, plus the fact that my work devices are Apple and not Android, it's now worth it. Early on, perhaps, it may not have been. But now, it is.

[Beltway]

Rather than criticizing millennials like some are wont to do, I made some positive and uplifting statements.  A lot are doing very well, per various reports.

It's cool that you have one or two friends that are doing well for themselves. That's not the experience of the majority, so citing those examples isn't really uplifting, it just serves to shit on those that aren't.

It is many more than one or two, and most are not 'friends' per se.

I have to admit that I am attracted to single women in that age group!  They can bear children.  In my church, one is a registered nurse, another an accountant supervisor, another a dietician.

Check this out
https://dynamicsignal.com/2018/10/09/key-statistics-millennials-in-the-workplace/
Excerpts:
Millennials already are the largest segment in the workplace.  Within the next two years, 50 percent of the U.S. workforce is expected to be made up of Millennials.  It will be 75 percent by 2030, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

"Millennials are first-generation digital natives who feel at home on the Internet,"  concluded the guide "How Millennials Want to Work and Live."   "Technology — particularly gadgets like smartphones, but also tablets and laptops — have revolutionized the way they connect and interact with one another and the rest of the world.  While the vast majority of Americans surf the Web from a desktop or laptop computer at home or work, 85 percent of Millennials access the Internet from their phones — more than all other generations."

"Millennials are more likely to use higher-end technologies in their personal lives, so it's no surprise that they have a more positive view of IT strategies that encourage the use of personal devices at work,"  according to the "Millennial Digital Workers Really Do Differ from Their Elders"  report.

"The Best Workplaces for Millennials give employees the tools they need to succeed,"  wrote CEO Michael Bush.  "They set the bar for other organizations seeking to retain and develop the next generation of leaders and prove that giving Millennials jobs with purpose and meaning drives them to give their best at work, benefitting the company as a whole."

[hbelkins]

I am SHOCKED that HB expressed a positive emotion for Adidas.  I had to say C A T S , cats, cats, cats; 10 times to get the thought out of my head.                             

UK was a Converse school until Eddie Sutton came along. He famously allowed Roger Harden to keep wearing Converse when UK switched to Nike because Harden's dad was a sales rep for Converse. I don't remember what UK wore during the Pitino or Smith days. Back then, the coaches negotiated shoe deals. At some point, the athletic department took it over and UK went Nike for all its programs.

Chuck Taylors were popular when I was in grade school, but I never liked them. Nike seems to have gotten its popularity in this area not from UK, but from Michael Jordan long before UK went to Nike.

Not sure why Louisville went for Adidas during Pitino's tenure there. I don't remember what they wore during the Denny Crum years.



Regarding degrees vs. skilled trades, it helps if people get useful degrees. There's a huge market for some things, while not so much for rather esoteric pursuits. How marketable is someone with a degree in African-American transgendered women's studies, after all? What jobs can anyone with a degree in a major like that (and yes, I know that's a fictional example, but you get the point) expect to get?

There will always be demands for certain majors -- teachers, biologists, engineering, accountants, and so on. A degree in an in-demand field is worth it. Something like women's studies or French literature? There's not exactly a booming market in those job categories.

There's always a market for plumbers and electricians and HVAC repairmen and auto mechanics. i wish I had the physical ability and aptitude to work in a skilled trade. I'd certainly be better off financially than I am now. My problem is that I never had the skills required to succeed in that world. Engineering was also out of the question, even a two-year engineering tech degree, because although I did well in science and math in school, I didn't have a great interest or aptitude.

[DaBigE]

I think this thread would be more interesting if people write out why they have an attachment to brands rather than barfing out a list of corporations.

Since my list is [so far] the longest, and I'm sure no one else is really interested in the full backstory behind each one, I'll sum up my attachments this way:

Most come from mostly positive experiences using the item/product. In other cases, it comes from a combination of positive experiences, longevity, and familiarity with various idiosyncrasies the product may have/preference to the way they operate. A select few also carry pride for the product being made in my home state. A few others have the link due to family and friends who worked for the company.

[Max Rockatansky]

Rather than criticizing millennials like some are wont to do, I made some positive and uplifting statements.  A lot are doing very well, per various reports.

It's cool that you have one or two friends that are doing well for themselves. That's not the experience of the majority, so citing those examples isn't really uplifting, it just serves to shit on those that aren't.

It is many more than one or two, and most are not 'friends' per se.

I have to admit that I am attracted to single women in that age group!  They can bear children.  In my church, one is a registered nurse, another an accountant supervisor, another a dietician.

Check this out
https://dynamicsignal.com/2018/10/09/key-statistics-millennials-in-the-workplace/
Excerpts:
Millennials already are the largest segment in the workplace.  Within the next two years, 50 percent of the U.S. workforce is expected to be made up of Millennials.  It will be 75 percent by 2030, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

"Millennials are first-generation digital natives who feel at home on the Internet,"  concluded the guide "How Millennials Want to Work and Live."   "Technology — particularly gadgets like smartphones, but also tablets and laptops — have revolutionized the way they connect and interact with one another and the rest of the world.  While the vast majority of Americans surf the Web from a desktop or laptop computer at home or work, 85 percent of Millennials access the Internet from their phones — more than all other generations."

"Millennials are more likely to use higher-end technologies in their personal lives, so it's no surprise that they have a more positive view of IT strategies that encourage the use of personal devices at work,"  according to the "Millennial Digital Workers Really Do Differ from Their Elders"  report.

"The Best Workplaces for Millennials give employees the tools they need to succeed,"  wrote CEO Michael Bush.  "They set the bar for other organizations seeking to retain and develop the next generation of leaders and prove that giving Millennials jobs with purpose and meaning drives them to give their best at work, benefitting the company as a whole."

End of the day things could be way worse, it's not like the Great Depression is on and 25% of the population is unemployed.  I would rather be in the position of someone trying to make a career now as opposed to having face some of the Industrial Revolution era work environments.  Also, teens used to be expected to work and produce in manual labor, that isn't the wide scale thing it once was.  Suffice to say the career problems of Millennials are somewhat luxurious compared to some generations of the not so far past. 

[Rothman]

Rather than criticizing millennials like some are wont to do, I made some positive and uplifting statements.  A lot are doing very well, per various reports.

It's cool that you have one or two friends that are doing well for themselves. That's not the experience of the majority, so citing those examples isn't really uplifting, it just serves to shit on those that aren't.

It is many more than one or two, and most are not 'friends' per se.

I have to admit that I am attracted to single women in that age group!  They can bear children.  In my church, one is a registered nurse, another an accountant supervisor, another a dietician.

Check this out
https://dynamicsignal.com/2018/10/09/key-statistics-millennials-in-the-workplace/
Excerpts:
Millennials already are the largest segment in the workplace.  Within the next two years, 50 percent of the U.S. workforce is expected to be made up of Millennials.  It will be 75 percent by 2030, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

"Millennials are first-generation digital natives who feel at home on the Internet,"  concluded the guide "How Millennials Want to Work and Live."   "Technology — particularly gadgets like smartphones, but also tablets and laptops — have revolutionized the way they connect and interact with one another and the rest of the world.  While the vast majority of Americans surf the Web from a desktop or laptop computer at home or work, 85 percent of Millennials access the Internet from their phones — more than all other generations."

"Millennials are more likely to use higher-end technologies in their personal lives, so it's no surprise that they have a more positive view of IT strategies that encourage the use of personal devices at work,"  according to the "Millennial Digital Workers Really Do Differ from Their Elders"  report.

"The Best Workplaces for Millennials give employees the tools they need to succeed,"  wrote CEO Michael Bush.  "They set the bar for other organizations seeking to retain and develop the next generation of leaders and prove that giving Millennials jobs with purpose and meaning drives them to give their best at work, benefitting the company as a whole."

End of the day things could be way worse, it's not like the Great Depression is on and 25% of the population is unemployed.  I would rather be in the position of someone trying to make a career now as opposed to having face some of the Industrial Revolution era work environments.  Also, teens used to be expected to work and produce in manual labor, that isn't the wide scale thing it once was.  Suffice to say the career problems of Millennials are somewhat luxurious compared to some generations of the not so far past.

Nah.  Take a look at the federal minimum wage's value adjusted for inflation over time and do the same with costs for college.  In terms of getting paid, Boomers benefitted from a minimim wage that paid basic bills and very cheap college.  For example, my father went to the University of Utah in the late 1960s and his tuition for four years of college COMBINED was less than $1000 in CURRENT dollars.  Even more stunning for Millennials is that there were public colleges that even had FREE tuition for Boomers (e.g., Queens College -- not your most exclusive place).

Kids these days face economic challenges not seen since the Depression.

[7/8]

Nah.  Take a look at the federal minimum wage's value adjusted for inflation over time and do the same with costs for college.  In terms of getting paid, Boomers benefitted from a minimim wage that paid basic bills and very cheap college.  For example, my father went to the University of Utah in the late 1960s and his tuition for four years of college COMBINED was less than $1000 in CURRENT dollars.  Even more stunning for Millennials is that there were public colleges that even had FREE tuition for Boomers (e.g., Queens College -- not your most exclusive place).

Kids these days face economic challenges not seen since the Depression.

My engineering program was 8 school terms and 6 work terms for a total of 5 years of school. The first term's tuition was $7500 (CAD) and the last term reached $8700. That's a 16% increase! I worked with someone who said they were in the same school and program as me <10 years earlier and they only paid $4000 a term. It's crazy! They should lock you into a price when you start the program so you know how much you'll be paying by the end.

[Beltway]

Take a look at the federal minimum wage's value adjusted for inflation over time and do the same with costs for college.  In terms of getting paid, Boomers benefitted from a minimim wage that paid basic bills and very cheap college.

In the year 1970, the United States minimum wage was $1.60.

Assuming a 40-hour week, that wasn't nearly enough to support one person in a tiny apartment with an old car, with no college.

For example, my father went to the University of Utah in the late 1960s and his tuition for four years of college COMBINED was less than $1000 in CURRENT dollars.

Two family members went to Virginia Tech in the early 1970s, one of the lower priced public universities at the time.  Four years of tuition and room and board was about $7,000 for a student, as paid at that time.

Even more stunning for Millennials is that there were public colleges that even had FREE tuition for Boomers (e.g., Queens College -- not your most exclusive place).

Where other than NYC, and only a couple.

Kids these days face economic challenges not seen since the Depression.

More like attitude challenges.  I see nothing above about learning a trade.  They are always in demand, and many of them pay very well.

[Max Rockatansky]

Rather than criticizing millennials like some are wont to do, I made some positive and uplifting statements.  A lot are doing very well, per various reports.

It's cool that you have one or two friends that are doing well for themselves. That's not the experience of the majority, so citing those examples isn't really uplifting, it just serves to shit on those that aren't.

It is many more than one or two, and most are not 'friends' per se.

I have to admit that I am attracted to single women in that age group!  They can bear children.  In my church, one is a registered nurse, another an accountant supervisor, another a dietician.

Check this out
https://dynamicsignal.com/2018/10/09/key-statistics-millennials-in-the-workplace/
Excerpts:
Millennials already are the largest segment in the workplace.  Within the next two years, 50 percent of the U.S. workforce is expected to be made up of Millennials.  It will be 75 percent by 2030, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

"Millennials are first-generation digital natives who feel at home on the Internet,"  concluded the guide "How Millennials Want to Work and Live."   "Technology — particularly gadgets like smartphones, but also tablets and laptops — have revolutionized the way they connect and interact with one another and the rest of the world.  While the vast majority of Americans surf the Web from a desktop or laptop computer at home or work, 85 percent of Millennials access the Internet from their phones — more than all other generations."

"Millennials are more likely to use higher-end technologies in their personal lives, so it's no surprise that they have a more positive view of IT strategies that encourage the use of personal devices at work,"  according to the "Millennial Digital Workers Really Do Differ from Their Elders"  report.

"The Best Workplaces for Millennials give employees the tools they need to succeed,"  wrote CEO Michael Bush.  "They set the bar for other organizations seeking to retain and develop the next generation of leaders and prove that giving Millennials jobs with purpose and meaning drives them to give their best at work, benefitting the company as a whole."

End of the day things could be way worse, it's not like the Great Depression is on and 25% of the population is unemployed.  I would rather be in the position of someone trying to make a career now as opposed to having face some of the Industrial Revolution era work environments.  Also, teens used to be expected to work and produce in manual labor, that isn't the wide scale thing it once was.  Suffice to say the career problems of Millennials are somewhat luxurious compared to some generations of the not so far past.

Nah.  Take a look at the federal minimum wage's value adjusted for inflation over time and do the same with costs for college.  In terms of getting paid, Boomers benefitted from a minimim wage that paid basic bills and very cheap college.  For example, my father went to the University of Utah in the late 1960s and his tuition for four years of college COMBINED was less than $1000 in CURRENT dollars.  Even more stunning for Millennials is that there were public colleges that even had FREE tuition for Boomers (e.g., Queens College -- not your most exclusive place).

Kids these days face economic challenges not seen since the Depression.

You do realize most people in early 20th Century America would consider a high school education to be a luxury for the common person?  More so, you get into things like the almost total lack of societal systems that would actually help people back before World War II was a massive problem?   Suffice to say as a whole from the standpoint of quality of life for the average person in the United States has steadily improved since World War II.  I'm not saying the world is perfect nor the economy is as good as the 1960s, I'm just saying that this isn't the end time for millennials or future generations since things could be infinitely worse.  I would concede inflation in regards to college hasn't kept pace with historic values but there are a lot of other things that are still within proportion. 

Also, speaking of brands why whenever the conversation of colleges comes up is it about just four year schools?   Most four year schools will accept transfers from two year junior colleges.  That is a pretty good way to bypass a lot of the up front costs of a four year school (especially loan) or avoiding living in a dorm.  I want to say the average credit hour was $50-55 at the Maricopa County Junior colleges in the early 2000s compared to the $300-$400 at Arizona State in the early 2000s (if I remember right).  It was way easier to pay for courses out of pocket at a JC in my early 20s since I could transfer them to the big school.  It seems like most the college talk these days is still oriented towards the "name brand"  schools when it really doesn't matter for average profession where a degree comes from. 

[kphoger]

Is it really that much to ask that a full time entry level job pay more than about $20K a year?

I don't see why it has to.

(theoretical numbers)
$800 per month for rent and utilities = $9600 per year
$75 per week for groceries = $3900 per year
$100 per month for transit = $1200 per year
$75 per month for cell phone = $900 per year
$450 per month for health insurance = $5400 per year

That comes to $21,000 per year.  Not carrying health insurance and having a roommate knocks it down to under $11,000 a year.  If a person cannot afford to live on $20,000 per year, then chances are they're spending money they don't need to.  Being able to afford your own house and your own car and going out to eat and subscribing to cable TV etc.–these are things that shouldn't be expected of an unskilled entry-level position.

[Max Rockatansky]

Is it really that much to ask that a full time entry level job pay more than about $20K a year?

I don't see why it has to.

(theoretical numbers)
$800 per month for rent and utilities = $9600 per year
$75 per week for groceries = $3900 per year
$100 per month for transit = $1200 per year
$75 per month for cell phone = $900 per year
$450 per month for health insurance = $5400 per year

That comes to $21,000 per year.  Not carrying health insurance and having a roommate knocks it down to under $11,000 a year.  If a person cannot afford to live on $20,000 per year, then chances are they're spending money they don't need to.  Being able to afford your own house and your own car and going out to eat and subscribing to cable TV etc.–these are things that shouldn't be expected of an unskilled entry-level position.

One of the larger issues I see with people in general is that they don't know how to budget their expenses.  Granted, if you're working just to pay for bills and exists that's a problem in the long term.  It can be done short term at the expense of things like entertainment, recreation, and really anything fun.  What I've tended to notice (and this is just a observation that I don't have data to back up) is that discretionary spending in younger age groups has greatly increased.  Does someone really need to buy games, have an expensive cell phone plan, have cable, or other nice things to survive?...not really.  I was always under the impression that early adulthood was supposed to be a financial struggle until you could establish yourself with a good job and/or career?  Having to do what you have to get by on your own is something most of us have to do regardless of generational differences.   

[hotdogPi]

Is it really that much to ask that a full time entry level job pay more than about $20K a year?

I don't see why it has to.

(theoretical numbers)
$800 per month for rent and utilities = $9600 per year
$75 per week for groceries = $3900 per year
$100 per month for transit = $1200 per year
$75 per month for cell phone = $900 per year
$450 per month for health insurance = $5400 per year

That comes to $21,000 per year.  Not carrying health insurance and having a roommate knocks it down to under $11,000 a year.  If a person cannot afford to live on $20,000 per year, then chances are they're spending money they don't need to.  Being able to afford your own house and your own car and going out to eat and subscribing to cable TV etc.–these are things that shouldn't be expected of an unskilled entry-level position.

Laundry, car maintenance, appliance replacements, clothes, computer, deductibles for health insurance, and probably a few others I'm forgetting.

Also, this is the bare minimum; someone who only pays the expenses you're mentioning cannot celebrate Christmas, spend time with family, or care for their children if they have any.

Another thing is that you don't get $25,000 if your job nominally pays that, because of income tax.

You also mention $100 per month for transit. In any place with decent public transit, the cost of living will be higher.

[DaBigE]

Laundry, car maintenance, appliance replacements, clothes, computer, deductibles for health insurance, and probably a few others I'm forgetting.

If you're paying rent, why would you have to pay for appliance replacements? Or are you referring to a toaster? A computer would still be a luxury item. If you're paying the amount for a phone that kphoger is suggesting, there is very little you'd need a physical computer for anymore these days. And even then, there's usually a library or Kinkos around if you're near transit.

Is it really that much to ask that a full time entry level job pay more than about $20K a year?

I don't see why it has to.

(theoretical numbers)
$800 per month for rent and utilities = $9600 per year
$75 per week for groceries = $3900 per year
$100 per month for transit = $1200 per year
$75 per month for cell phone = $900 per year
$450 per month for health insurance = $5400 per year

At least in this area, if you're able to get rent that cheap with utilities, you're not going to have access to mass transit.

[kphoger]

Is it really that much to ask that a full time entry level job pay more than about $20K a year?

I don't see why it has to.

(theoretical numbers)
$800 per month for rent and utilities = $9600 per year
$75 per week for groceries = $3900 per year
$100 per month for transit = $1200 per year
$75 per month for cell phone = $900 per year
$450 per month for health insurance = $5400 per year

That comes to $21,000 per year.  Not carrying health insurance and having a roommate knocks it down to under $11,000 a year.  If a person cannot afford to live on $20,000 per year, then chances are they're spending money they don't need to.  Being able to afford your own house and your own car and going out to eat and subscribing to cable TV etc.–these are things that shouldn't be expected of an unskilled entry-level position.

Laundry, car maintenance, appliance replacements, clothes, computer, deductibles for health insurance, and probably a few others I'm forgetting.

Also, this is the bare minimum; someone who only pays the expenses you're mentioning cannot celebrate Christmas, spend time with family, or care for their children if they have any.

Another thing is that you don't get $25,000 if your job nominally pays that, because of income tax.

You also mention $100 per month for transit. In any place with decent public transit, the cost of living will be higher.

Total laundromat costs for one person should total less than $400 per year.

Appliance replacement is generally not a thing for people who rent.  Small appliances like coffee makers?  OK, $100 per year.

A computer is a one-time expense, and computers are generally available to the public at libraries, schools, etc.

Celebrating Christmas is definitely possible without buying presents, and it's more than possible to celebrate it without spending more than $100 on presents.

Spending time with family is possible if they live nearby.  If not, then (1) that's a lifestyle choice and (2) hitchhiking is free.  Take it from someone who used to do plenty of hitchhiking back before (and also after) I got married.

Caring for children should be done by two parents, and so it's reasonable to assume that the annual income will be more than one person's wages.  If both parents work full-time, then double the income.  If one parent works part-time, then it's still a bump.

You didn't say whether your $20k figure included taxes or not, so don't use that as an argument against my rebuttal.

Aside from, say, the top five most expensive cities to live in, where can a single person not find a studio apartment for less than $800 a month?  Or at least a two-bedroom apartment that he or she could split in half with a roommate?  Chicago, for example, which has excellent transit and whose monthly transit pass is just a hair over $100, has plenty of 2BR apartments for less than $900 a month.  Split that with a roommate, and your rent is less than $450.  Back in 2005 or so, I used to live in Wheaton (a nice suburb of Chicago) and split a nice 2BR apartment with two roommates, and rent for each of us was less than $300 a month.

We have a family of five, and we make around $30k a year.  We are able to do our own laundry, own a car on which we perform maintenance, buy clothes, exchange Christmas presents, spend time with family, care for our children, give to our church, conduct mission trips, have cell phones with data plans, subscribe to Netflix and Amazon, go on dates, etc, etc, etc.  By your reasoning, we should have to make well over $40k in order to afford all that stuff.

Probably the only legitimate issue is that health care is insanely expensive.  That's why I don't have it, and neither does my wife.  That's a choice we've made.  It sucks, but there it is.  We used to have it, back when Obamacare first made it mandatory, but we dumped it not too long after that.

[Max Rockatansky]

Is it really that much to ask that a full time entry level job pay more than about $20K a year?

I don't see why it has to.

(theoretical numbers)
$800 per month for rent and utilities = $9600 per year
$75 per week for groceries = $3900 per year
$100 per month for transit = $1200 per year
$75 per month for cell phone = $900 per year
$450 per month for health insurance = $5400 per year

That comes to $21,000 per year.  Not carrying health insurance and having a roommate knocks it down to under $11,000 a year.  If a person cannot afford to live on $20,000 per year, then chances are they're spending money they don't need to.  Being able to afford your own house and your own car and going out to eat and subscribing to cable TV etc.–these are things that shouldn't be expected of an unskilled entry-level position.

Laundry, car maintenance, appliance replacements, clothes, computer, deductibles for health insurance, and probably a few others I'm forgetting.

Also, this is the bare minimum; someone who only pays the expenses you're mentioning cannot celebrate Christmas, spend time with family, or care for their children if they have any.

Another thing is that you don't get $25,000 if your job nominally pays that, because of income tax.

You also mention $100 per month for transit. In any place with decent public transit, the cost of living will be higher.

You hit on some of the things I was getting at in the post above.  Things like recreation or even the ability to spend time with family would more fall under the definition of a luxury (a computer and cell are still to extent partial luxury items) rather than a true need to survive.  Granted the income levels were talk about meant to be entry level which in "theory"  should be something a single individual attempting to establish a career can do.  The problem is more and more people are staying in jobs said pay band later into adulthood when that level of income can no longer support them.  For what it's worth it seems that things tend to be leveling off for most around the age of 30.  It's almost as though 25 is the new 18 and 30 is the new 25 in the way people more or less progress through their life/adulthood nowadays.  Personally I find it odd having growing up under the knowledge that at 18 I was expected to GTFO of the house but it seems to be the trend people are growing up slower. 

I'm curious if this is a trend mostly seen in the United States or is it similar in other western countries as well?  I know we have a lot of posters from other countries like Canada and places in Europe, maybe someone can opine on what they are seeing?

[jeffandnicole]

Is it really that much to ask that a full time entry level job pay more than about $20K a year?

I don't see why it has to.

(theoretical numbers)
$800 per month for rent and utilities = $9600 per year
$75 per week for groceries = $3900 per year
$100 per month for transit = $1200 per year
$75 per month for cell phone = $900 per year
$450 per month for health insurance = $5400 per year

That comes to $21,000 per year.  Not carrying health insurance and having a roommate knocks it down to under $11,000 a year.  If a person cannot afford to live on $20,000 per year, then chances are they're spending money they don't need to.  Being able to afford your own house and your own car and going out to eat and subscribing to cable TV etc.–these are things that shouldn't be expected of an unskilled entry-level position.

I'm guessing this is under the table since you didn't include Federal Taxes, State Taxes, FICA, Unemployment Tax, Family Leave Tax, Medicare, etc, etc.

So $21k is net.

I'm guessing you live in a nudist colony, since no money was allocated for clothing.

I'm guessing you allocated $10 a day for eating and drinking.  Ramon Noodles and Water every day gets a little tiring.

I'm guessing you live in a state without a sales tax, which would eat into those allocations.

I'm guessing that even with health insurance, there's no copays or prescription drugs.

I'm guessing that you're not even gonna ever get a cold, so forget about over-the-counter drugs.

This list is so barebones that someone living on $21k...after taxes...will barely scrape by.

[hotdogPi]

I'm guessing you allocated $10 a day for eating and drinking.  Ramon Noodles and Water every day gets a little tiring.

When I'm by myself, this what I have:
Lunch:
½ pound of ham for $3.25; lasts about a week
10 slices of cheese for $2.69; lasts 5 days
1 loaf of bread for about $3 (typically the healthier types); lasts about a week
Dinner:
105 fish sticks for $12; lasts 13 days
1 instant rice for $2.19; lasts 1 day

That's $4.54 per day, almost of half of which is the rice. Take out the rice and add a banana (20¢ each), and it will be only $2.55.

This doesn't include breakfast or snacks, which I do have. My purchases are about $20-25 per week, but I don't always eat at home by myself, so I can't provide an exact number.

[kphoger]

Is it really that much to ask that a full time entry level job pay more than about $20K a year?

I don't see why it has to.

(theoretical numbers)
$800 per month for rent and utilities = $9600 per year
$75 per week for groceries = $3900 per year
$100 per month for transit = $1200 per year
$75 per month for cell phone = $900 per year
$450 per month for health insurance = $5400 per year

That comes to $21,000 per year.  Not carrying health insurance and having a roommate knocks it down to under $11,000 a year.  If a person cannot afford to live on $20,000 per year, then chances are they're spending money they don't need to.  Being able to afford your own house and your own car and going out to eat and subscribing to cable TV etc.–these are things that shouldn't be expected of an unskilled entry-level position.

I'm guessing this is under the table since you didn't include Federal Taxes, State Taxes, FICA, Unemployment Tax, Family Leave Tax, Medicare, etc, etc.

So $21k is net.

I'm guessing you live in a nudist colony, since no money was allocated for clothing.

I'm guessing you allocated $10 a day for eating and drinking.  Ramon Noodles and Water every day gets a little tiring.

I'm guessing you live in a state without a sales tax, which would eat into those allocations.

I'm guessing that even with health insurance, there's no copays or prescription drugs.

I'm guessing that you're not even gonna ever get a cold, so forget about over-the-counter drugs.

This list is so barebones that someone living on $21k...after taxes...will barely scrape by.

The post I replied to said nothing about taxes.  Why did you assume $20k was before taxes?  I didn't.

I hardly spend any money on clothes.  One pair of pants a year, tops.  Hardly ever shirts or socks.  One pair of shoes every few years.  Not a factor.

$75 per week buys more than Ramen noodles.  When my wife and I were first married, we budgeted $75 per week for both of us.  Eggs are cheap, beans are cheap, pasta is cheap, rice is cheap.  Besides, we're not talking about what gets tiring.  We're talking about what people can afford.  If you want variety in your diet, then you expect to pay a little more.

Nope, I factored sales tax into everything.  Find where I didn't.

Health care is the biggie.  I personally have only seen a doctor twice in the last, oh, probably ten years or so.  There are clinics here with sliding scales based on your income, so the co-pay ranges from zero up to $100 per visit.

I get a cold, I get sick to the stomach.  That doesn't mean I have to take medicine for them.  A few years ago, I had influenza but, by the time the clinic opened after the New Year, it was too late to do anything about.  I lived.  OTC drugs are not really a thing for me.  A couple of Advil to fight a headache once every month or so, that's about the extent of it.

As I said, I have a family of five and we do fine on somewhere around $30k per year.  Before taxes.  Your assertion contradicts my reality.