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Across US-50 - Southern Illinois

Started by edwaleni, June 21, 2021, 12:24:39 AM

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Rick Powell



3467

The U.S. 30 project had a long discussion of the cancellation at the FEIS stage. It suggested 4 passing lanes and a couple of intersection proposals. The one at Emerson road is in the current MYP.
The U.S. 50 project cancellation is more mysterious.

edwaleni

Quote from: 3467 on September 21, 2022, 07:17:25 PM
The U.S. 30 project had a long discussion of the cancellation at the FEIS stage. It suggested 4 passing lanes and a couple of intersection proposals. The one at Emerson road is in the current MYP.
The U.S. 50 project cancellation is more mysterious.

The guy who ran the US 50 Coalition in Illinois left for another position not long after IDOT pulled the funding of the final EIS on the eastern end with no warning. The gentleman who served with him on the same coalition was the Mayor of Lebanon, who passed away before his bypass was finally funded. That particular one is currently in engineering. Nothing fancy there, just a 2 lane from Summerfield to IL-4 with a bridge over the CSX tracks. I don't even think they are going to build an approach at IL-4 for a future highway, just stub it with a traffic light and make everyone recross the tracks they built the bridge for or turn south down IL-4. 

When IDOT publishes the site plans, I will take a look.

skluth

Quote from: edwaleni on September 22, 2022, 10:07:57 PM
Quote from: 3467 on September 21, 2022, 07:17:25 PM
The U.S. 30 project had a long discussion of the cancellation at the FEIS stage. It suggested 4 passing lanes and a couple of intersection proposals. The one at Emerson road is in the current MYP.
The U.S. 50 project cancellation is more mysterious.

The guy who ran the US 50 Coalition in Illinois left for another position not long after IDOT pulled the funding of the final EIS on the eastern end with no warning. The gentleman who served with him on the same coalition was the Mayor of Lebanon, who passed away before his bypass was finally funded. That particular one is currently in engineering. Nothing fancy there, just a 2 lane from Summerfield to IL-4 with a bridge over the CSX tracks. I don't even think they are going to build an approach at IL-4 for a future highway, just stub it with a traffic light and make everyone recross the tracks they built the bridge for or turn south down IL-4. 

When IDOT publishes the site plans, I will take a look.

That's disappointing. I was hoping the bypass would go from Summerfield to I-64; I thought that was the plan at one point but this article from a few years ago which interviews Lebanon's late mayor makes it clear that the corridor you mentioned was the only one being considered in recent years. I do hope they build it with the potential to four lane it in the future like US 50 east to Lake Carlyle.

While road geeks and some locals may want US 50 four lanes east to Indiana, there really is no demand to widen it to four lanes between Carlyle and I-57. I've driven that a few times when I dated someone from Salem and that section has very little traffic. US 50 west of Carlyle mostly supports commuter traffic to St Louis during the week and vacation traffic to Lake Carlyle on weekends; there's just not much thru traffic.

planxtymcgillicuddy

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the US-50 corridor through southern IL supposed to be the original route for I-64 in the state?
It's easy to be easy when you're easy...

Quote from: on_wisconsin on November 27, 2021, 02:39:12 PM
Whats a Limon, and does it go well with gin?

Life in Paradise

Quote from: planxtymcgillicuddy on September 23, 2022, 12:51:22 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the US-50 corridor through southern IL supposed to be the original route for I-64 in the state?
Yes, that is correct until it was lobbied to go south towards Evansville.  Had they been successful in moving it all the way to Evansville, it would have been able to service Mt. Vernon (IL), Carmi, Evansville, and be in closer proximity to Owensboro, KY before heading toward Louisville.  A few additional travel miles, yes, but if you draw a line between Chicago and Nashville, it doesn't go through Indianapolis and Louisville.  As a result, then a US 50 corridor through Illinois and into Indiana might make more sense due to the distance.

ilpt4u

#31
Quote from: Life in Paradise on September 23, 2022, 01:55:26 PM
Quote from: planxtymcgillicuddy on September 23, 2022, 12:51:22 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the US-50 corridor through southern IL supposed to be the original route for I-64 in the state?
Yes, that is correct until it was lobbied to go south towards Evansville.  Had they been successful in moving it all the way to Evansville, it would have been able to service Mt. Vernon (IL), Carmi, Evansville, and be in closer proximity to Owensboro, KY before heading toward Louisville.  A few additional travel miles, yes, but if you draw a line between Chicago and Nashville, it doesn't go through Indianapolis and Louisville.  As a result, then a US 50 corridor through Illinois and into Indiana might make more sense due to the distance.
Had the US 50 interests prevailed over the US 460 interests for I-64's final routing, I bet I-24 would have been built to at least I-255, if not into East St Louis and to the Mississippi River

Regarding that straight "line"  (really curve) between Chicago and Nashville, it is pretty darn close to US 41. Not exact, and it certainly does not go thru Indy nor Louisville

skluth

Quote from: ilpt4u on September 23, 2022, 02:32:57 PM
Quote from: Life in Paradise on September 23, 2022, 01:55:26 PM
Quote from: planxtymcgillicuddy on September 23, 2022, 12:51:22 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the US-50 corridor through southern IL supposed to be the original route for I-64 in the state?
Yes, that is correct until it was lobbied to go south towards Evansville.  Had they been successful in moving it all the way to Evansville, it would have been able to service Mt. Vernon (IL), Carmi, Evansville, and be in closer proximity to Owensboro, KY before heading toward Louisville.  A few additional travel miles, yes, but if you draw a line between Chicago and Nashville, it doesn't go through Indianapolis and Louisville.  As a result, then a US 50 corridor through Illinois and into Indiana might make more sense due to the distance.
Had the US 50 interests prevailed over the US 460 interests for I-64's final routing, I bet I-24 would have been built to at least I-255, if not into East St Louis and to the Mississippi River

Regarding that straight "line"  (really curve) between Chicago and Nashville, it is pretty darn close to US 41. Not exact, and it certainly does not go thru Indy nor Louisville

Thing is, slight movements off a straight line between two relatively distant points doesn't make that much difference in the overall mileage. I was surprised to find out when I lived in St Louis that it's only 15 miles further to Chicago via I-70/57 as it is via I-55. I certainly never suspected it when the map shows just how far out of the way Effingham is. It was also about the same time back then as the Bloomington bypass was still two lanes (and Springfield's still is though that is gratefully changing soon). Part of the surprisingly short difference is the jogs I-55 makes as it bypasses Springfield, Lincoln, and Bloomington, but I-57 does the same around Kankakee.

I'm too lazy today to figure out what the distance difference is between Chicago and Nashville via Evansville vs via Indy/Louisville but I'm guessing it's no more than 10% of the total mileage between the endpoints. (Don't forget to include the I-64/69 Evansville bypass when doing the calculations.)

edwaleni

As for US-50, yes it was supposed to be I-64. The only portion built to that requirement was from BUSN US-50 @ Lawrenceville and as part of the Vincennes Bypass for US-41, US-50 and US-150.

The only major remnant of that aborted Interstate effort in 1962 is the US-50 Red Skelton Bridge over the Wabash River. Built with the idea of handling lots of truck traffic from Cincy and Louisville to St Louis, it never saw the expected AADT it was designed for.


Revive 755

Quote from: skluth on September 23, 2022, 05:22:26 PM
I'm too lazy today to figure out what the distance difference is between Chicago and Nashville via Evansville vs via Indy/Louisville but I'm guessing it's no more than 10% of the total mileage between the endpoints. (Don't forget to include the I-64/69 Evansville bypass when doing the calculations.)

Using Google and going from around the Circle Interchange to where I-24 crosses Main Street around downtown Nashville:

* Using the US 41-IN 63 corridor from I-80/I-94, I-69 to get around Evansville, then down the Pennyrile to I-24:  448 miles
* Using I-65 between I-80/I-94 and Nashville:  471 miles
* Using I-65, IN 37, I-69, and the Pennyrile:  492 miles
* Using I-57 and I-24:  506 miles

Avalanchez71

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 19, 2021, 01:45:49 PM
Should US 50 have been four lanes across Southern Illinois? Of course, that is assuming there would be sufficient funding for the design and construction of a four-lane US 50.

Not necessary and the tax base would not support it.  Of course I do believe IL is a bond, tax and spend road state.

Scott5114

Quote from: Avalanchez71 on September 23, 2022, 10:34:50 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 19, 2021, 01:45:49 PM
Should US 50 have been four lanes across Southern Illinois? Of course, that is assuming there would be sufficient funding for the design and construction of a four-lane US 50.

Not necessary and the tax base would not support it.  Of course I do believe IL is a bond, tax and spend road state.

No shit? Taxing and not spending would be idiotic. Spending and not taxing would be even more idiotic.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

edwaleni

Quote from: Avalanchez71 on September 23, 2022, 10:34:50 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 19, 2021, 01:45:49 PM
Should US 50 have been four lanes across Southern Illinois? Of course, that is assuming there would be sufficient funding for the design and construction of a four-lane US 50.

Not necessary and the tax base would not support it.  Of course I do believe IL is a bond, tax and spend road state.

No, as it stands today, it isn't justified to have US-50 be a 4 lane across the state based strictly on current traffic trends.

The US 50 Coalition was trying to get a long term plan in place to support the redevelopment of small industry along the corridor.

Much of this was lost not only when the interstate highways bypassed the corridor, the ongoing neglect of small industry by railroads (or their abandonment) along the way, but also due to NAFTA, which caused a large exodus of manufacturing.

Since many business and industrial parks can't attract good paying tenants without proximity to a regional 4 lane highway, essentially to support trucks, these collection of pro-business/pro-highway entities petition the state government to upgrade the highways nearby.

As noted before, US-50 *was* a major trucking arterial between Cincy and St Louis prior to the Interstate Highway System. Some of the original highway designers were going to take the route and turn it into Interstate grade with a split near Shoals, Indiana that would aggregate/split traffic (depending on your direction of travel) between Cincy, Louisville and St Louis.

The route was moved south closer to Evansville and on to Louisville, and Cincy traffic goes by way of Indianapolis now.

Today the route is a "Frankenstein" mix of 4 lane limited access, 4 lane all access, Super 2, Standard 2 and in places not so super 2 as it still uses a ROW from 1927.

The usage is broken up in 3 sections from a AADT perspective.

- O'Fallon to Carlye
- Sandoval (technically Odin) to Salem
- Olney to Vincennes

In between these sections, the traffic counts fall off dramatically and don't justify a large degree of work, if anything it could be justified strictly for safety purposes.

That is why (IMHO) the route should baselined out as a Super 2 from O'Fallon to Salem (to I-57) and from Flora (US-45) to Vincennes (US-41) and a Standard 2 from Salem to Flora and someday replace that old geometry from Salem to Xenia.

This will help meet the business and industrial parks appeal to new tenants, increase the safety by getting truck traffic out of certain city centers, and remove a large number of those flashing red's that cause so many accidents at night.




planxtymcgillicuddy

Quote from: edwaleni on September 23, 2022, 08:01:22 PM
As for US-50, yes it was supposed to be I-64. The only portion built to that requirement was from BUSN US-50 @ Lawrenceville and as part of the Vincennes Bypass for US-41, US-50 and US-150.

The only major remnant of that aborted Interstate effort in 1962 is the US-50 Red Skelton Bridge over the Wabash River. Built with the idea of handling lots of truck traffic from Cincy and Louisville to St Louis, it never saw the expected AADT it was designed for.



So if 64 had followed 50 in IL, I assume then that 64 would have followed 150 on a Vincennes-Washington-Paoli route?
It's easy to be easy when you're easy...

Quote from: on_wisconsin on November 27, 2021, 02:39:12 PM
Whats a Limon, and does it go well with gin?

ilpt4u

Quote from: planxtymcgillicuddy on September 25, 2022, 10:14:36 AM
So if 64 had followed 50 in IL, I assume then that 64 would have followed 150 on a Vincennes-Washington-Paoli route?
Yup, the original 64 routing followed US 50 in IL and US 150 in IN between St Louis and Louisville

skluth

Quote from: edwaleni on September 24, 2022, 10:05:38 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on September 23, 2022, 10:34:50 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 19, 2021, 01:45:49 PM
Should US 50 have been four lanes across Southern Illinois? Of course, that is assuming there would be sufficient funding for the design and construction of a four-lane US 50.

Not necessary and the tax base would not support it.  Of course I do believe IL is a bond, tax and spend road state.

No, as it stands today, it isn't justified to have US-50 be a 4 lane across the state based strictly on current traffic trends.

The US 50 Coalition was trying to get a long term plan in place to support the redevelopment of small industry along the corridor.

Much of this was lost not only when the interstate highways bypassed the corridor, the ongoing neglect of small industry by railroads (or their abandonment) along the way, but also due to NAFTA, which caused a large exodus of manufacturing.

Since many business and industrial parks can't attract good paying tenants without proximity to a regional 4 lane highway, essentially to support trucks, these collection of pro-business/pro-highway entities petition the state government to upgrade the highways nearby.

As noted before, US-50 *was* a major trucking arterial between Cincy and St Louis prior to the Interstate Highway System. Some of the original highway designers were going to take the route and turn it into Interstate grade with a split near Shoals, Indiana that would aggregate/split traffic (depending on your direction of travel) between Cincy, Louisville and St Louis.

The route was moved south closer to Evansville and on to Louisville, and Cincy traffic goes by way of Indianapolis now.

Today the route is a "Frankenstein" mix of 4 lane limited access, 4 lane all access, Super 2, Standard 2 and in places not so super 2 as it still uses a ROW from 1927.

The usage is broken up in 3 sections from a AADT perspective.

- O'Fallon to Carlye
- Sandoval (technically Odin) to Salem
- Olney to Vincennes

In between these sections, the traffic counts fall off dramatically and don't justify a large degree of work, if anything it could be justified strictly for safety purposes.

That is why (IMHO) the route should baselined out as a Super 2 from O'Fallon to Salem (to I-57) and from Flora (US-45) to Vincennes (US-41) and a Standard 2 from Salem to Flora and someday replace that old geometry from Salem to Xenia.

This will help meet the business and industrial parks appeal to new tenants, increase the safety by getting truck traffic out of certain city centers, and remove a large number of those flashing red's that cause so many accidents at night.

I agree with most of this. US 50 definitely acts as mostly a local route with some segments getting much more traffic than others. I disagree with the Super 2 from O'Fallon to Salem. A bypass of Lebanon at the west end of the corridor to US 50 is definitely needed and may possibly be the one place where a four lane segment makes sense (especially if it also incorporates an IL 4 bypass of Lebanon). There is absolutely no need for an upgraded road east of Carlyle to Sandoval; a US 50 bypass of Carlyle wouldn't be easy as it would either involve building a highway through parkland and a cemetery or a longer bypass south of town. I can somewhat see the need between Sandoval and Salem, especially if US 51 is upgraded from Centralia to Vandalia and points north but I wouldn't count on that happening soon either. Upgrading US 50 east of I-57 should involve a Super 2 bypass of Salem, upgrading US 50 to Super 2 status through Olney and Flora, and interchanges at the crossroads to the small built-up communities like Xenia, Noble, and Bridgeport. I'd also prohibit any new accesses to US 50 along the entire corridor except between Carlyle and Sandoval. These upgrades could be done in phases for easier budgeting.

Something like this notional concept. Note there are two bypasses of Salem. Only one would be built depending on whether it extends west to US 51 or I-57 and upgrades to US 51 to Vandalia and/or Centralia. The Salem bypass is probably the last thing built besides a few random interchanges.

edwaleni

Quote from: skluth on September 25, 2022, 01:55:53 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on September 24, 2022, 10:05:38 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on September 23, 2022, 10:34:50 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 19, 2021, 01:45:49 PM
Should US 50 have been four lanes across Southern Illinois? Of course, that is assuming there would be sufficient funding for the design and construction of a four-lane US 50.

Not necessary and the tax base would not support it.  Of course I do believe IL is a bond, tax and spend road state.

No, as it stands today, it isn't justified to have US-50 be a 4 lane across the state based strictly on current traffic trends.

The US 50 Coalition was trying to get a long term plan in place to support the redevelopment of small industry along the corridor.

Much of this was lost not only when the interstate highways bypassed the corridor, the ongoing neglect of small industry by railroads (or their abandonment) along the way, but also due to NAFTA, which caused a large exodus of manufacturing.

Since many business and industrial parks can't attract good paying tenants without proximity to a regional 4 lane highway, essentially to support trucks, these collection of pro-business/pro-highway entities petition the state government to upgrade the highways nearby.

As noted before, US-50 *was* a major trucking arterial between Cincy and St Louis prior to the Interstate Highway System. Some of the original highway designers were going to take the route and turn it into Interstate grade with a split near Shoals, Indiana that would aggregate/split traffic (depending on your direction of travel) between Cincy, Louisville and St Louis.

The route was moved south closer to Evansville and on to Louisville, and Cincy traffic goes by way of Indianapolis now.

Today the route is a "Frankenstein" mix of 4 lane limited access, 4 lane all access, Super 2, Standard 2 and in places not so super 2 as it still uses a ROW from 1927.

The usage is broken up in 3 sections from a AADT perspective.

- O'Fallon to Carlye
- Sandoval (technically Odin) to Salem
- Olney to Vincennes

In between these sections, the traffic counts fall off dramatically and don't justify a large degree of work, if anything it could be justified strictly for safety purposes.

That is why (IMHO) the route should baselined out as a Super 2 from O'Fallon to Salem (to I-57) and from Flora (US-45) to Vincennes (US-41) and a Standard 2 from Salem to Flora and someday replace that old geometry from Salem to Xenia.

This will help meet the business and industrial parks appeal to new tenants, increase the safety by getting truck traffic out of certain city centers, and remove a large number of those flashing red's that cause so many accidents at night.

I agree with most of this. US 50 definitely acts as mostly a local route with some segments getting much more traffic than others. I disagree with the Super 2 from O'Fallon to Salem. A bypass of Lebanon at the west end of the corridor to US 50 is definitely needed and may possibly be the one place where a four lane segment makes sense (especially if it also incorporates an IL 4 bypass of Lebanon). There is absolutely no need for an upgraded road east of Carlyle to Sandoval; a US 50 bypass of Carlyle wouldn't be easy as it would either involve building a highway through parkland and a cemetery or a longer bypass south of town. I can somewhat see the need between Sandoval and Salem, especially if US 51 is upgraded from Centralia to Vandalia and points north but I wouldn't count on that happening soon either. Upgrading US 50 east of I-57 should involve a Super 2 bypass of Salem, upgrading US 50 to Super 2 status through Olney and Flora, and interchanges at the crossroads to the small built-up communities like Xenia, Noble, and Bridgeport. I'd also prohibit any new accesses to US 50 along the entire corridor except between Carlyle and Sandoval. These upgrades could be done in phases for easier budgeting.

Something like this notional concept. Note there are two bypasses of Salem. Only one would be built depending on whether it extends west to US 51 or I-57 and upgrades to US 51 to Vandalia and/or Centralia. The Salem bypass is probably the last thing built besides a few random interchanges.

The last study I saw was to bypass Caryle to the south starting near Flat Branch Road crossing old-US 50 and turning east at Highline Road. The new road would cross the Kaskaskia River at a bluff on the east bank. Then come back north east of Huey. Use the existing ROW until west of Sandoval where it pops north of town and a cloverleaf was planned with US-51 NE of Sandoval. US-51 was supposed to bypass Sandoval to the east. That is dead now.

As for a Salem Bypass, none have been planned or discussed to my knowledge. Most of the traffic west of Salem is due to a large number of logistics firms having truck terminals right off the exit ramps for I-57. This explains the really high AADT between I-57 and Odin. I thought this was driving traffic to Centralia via US-51, but the AADT south of Sandoval doesn't show that.

As for a Salem bypass, it would most likely go to the south, use a former railroad ROW which for the most part is Blair Street now. This ROW goes all the way to the UP line and then have it come back up east of town. I don't think Salem or IDOT would have any interest in any bypass because the AADT east of Salem is very, very low. IDOT fixed the bridge under the UP for clearance issues back in the 1990's, so the bypass is just not needed right now.

The only reason I bring up Super 2 is because IDOT already owns most of the land, this will get the local towns and their business park developments to quit biting their ankles and continue to waste money on EIS'es for a four lane road.

Alps

Quote from: ilpt4u on September 25, 2022, 11:31:13 AM
Quote from: planxtymcgillicuddy on September 25, 2022, 10:14:36 AM
So if 64 had followed 50 in IL, I assume then that 64 would have followed 150 on a Vincennes-Washington-Paoli route?
Yup, the original 64 routing followed US 50 in IL and US 150 in IN between St Louis and Louisville
Probably better farther from 70



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