Driving on Snow and Ice: Dividing line for The South?

[Dirt Roads]

Pulling from my comments on a couple of recent threads, I think that it is fair to say to most folks in Illinois/Indiana/Ohio and West Virginia know how to drive in tough snow and ice conditions, but folks in Kentucky struggle.  I don't see that as an identity problem for Kentucky, but it is a cultural difference.  After all, the weather in Eastern Kentucky is not discernibly different than the Appalachian Plateau of West Virginia, and I can't imagine that West Virginia can afford more equipment and more "road salt" than Kentucky can.

Here in Central Carolina, we see the same thing.  We are on the dividing line, whereby folks here in Orange County struggle with snow and ice; to the west and north of us, most folks in Alamance County and the Northern Tier (Rockingham/Caswell/Person/Granville/Vance) have no such issues.  I see the same thing dividing parts of Virginia, but I'm not sure where the dividing line really is.

In an attempt to map this out, kick around your perceptions of where the cultural dividing line between folks that can drive in snow versus folks that prefer to close down and stay home until it melts.

[Max Rockatansky]

There is no southern line in the mountain states.  If elevation are above 5,000 feet above sea level there will be at least some level of semi-predictable snow in the winter.  As an example I've encountered snow along the Mexican Border in California, Arizona, New Mexico and even western Texas.

[Scott5114]

Kansas City can drive in the snow. Oklahoma City can't. So the dividing line is somewhere between I-40 and I-70 in this part of the country.

I was only in Springfield for one winter, and I don't remember whether people could drive in the snow. But I do have an aunt that lives there that told me on icy days she likes to bring up the MoDOT traffic cams and watch people crash into each other. So perhaps the dividing line is US-60.

[J N Winkler]

I think the relearning that occurs at the first winter storm in areas that see only episodic snow/ice coverage complicates attempts to map a dividing line.  That is essentially what happens in Wichita--typically there are many accidents in the first or second snowstorm and then things settle down for the rest of the winter.

[MikieTimT]

In NWA, it's kind of a mix.  We have enough transplants from Texas that skew our traffic behaviors closer to that of Texas metros (it's pretty much what you'd think), but plenty from other parts of the state as well.  NWA has a reasonably good amount of winter road maintenance equipment, especially compared to the rest of Arkansas.  But it also has a lot of elevation relief in the area which makes that maintenance mandatory to keep things from grinding to an absolute halt.  We don't get frozen precipitation often enough that much of anyone outside of myself has snow chains, and no one has studded tires.  Heck, we don't even have the concept of winter tires around here.  Once you get out of city limits, it doesn't take long before you start seeing folks on ATVs running to convenience stores for necessities, however, in longer events, as they handle the snow depths that we tend to get around here just fine.

[GaryV]

Every year we find a new crop of MI drivers that don't know how to handle ice and snow. I don't think they are all imports from The South or new drivers. They must have low retention, and forgot that there was snow last year too.

[kphoger]

The last time I was in Kentucky, it was during an evening winter storm that had ice on the Interstate (I-24 across the eastern end of the state).  Those of us with Kansas and Missouri and Illinois license plates were able to go 50—55 mph.  Those with Kentucky and Georgia and Alabama license plates were all going about 25—35 mph.  The difference was stark.

[kphoger]

Every year we find a new crop of MI drivers that don't know how to handle ice and snow. I don't think they are all imports from The South or new drivers. They must have low retention, and forgot that there was snow last year too.

Wichita is like that too.  We get decent snow and ice most years, with a big storm every few years–yet people still manage to forget how to drive on snow and ice between events.  They also seem to be under the impression that, if the surface is covered with snow or ice, then it is no longer necessary to signal or even look first before changing lanes:  everyone will just automatically move out of the way for them.

[GaryV]

... then it is no longer necessary to signal or even look first before changing lanes:  everyone will just automatically move out of the way for them.

That's default behavior in metro Detroit, snow or not. "If my lane is blocked, I have the right to yours."

[kphoger]

... then it is no longer necessary to signal or even look first before changing lanes:  everyone will just automatically move out of the way for them.

That's default behavior in metro Detroit, snow or not. "If my lane is blocked, I have the right to yours."

It isn't default behavior here.  Only when it's most necessary due to weather conditions.   

(I did once know a farmer who used to drive an 18-wheeler.  He told me once that, back when he was a truck driver, he would put his blinker on, let it blink three times, and then change lanes.  He said the three blinks were your fair warning to move out of the way.)

[epzik8]

Somewhere between Washington, DC and Richmond.

[Dirt Roads]

Somewhere between Washington, DC and Richmond.

Indeed, and I suspect that the "dividing line" has moved further northward along I-95 since I lived in Richmond back in the late-1980s.  But the snow/ice impact in Richmond seemed different that the effect that I was describing.  There seemed to be a gradual diminishing of the percentage of folks comfortable driving in snow/ice as you head northward from Petersburg;  Richmond and surrounding don't simply shut down when the roads get bad.  There was the famous New Year's Eve snowstorm in December 1987 and it didn't shut down the festivities.  But I'm sure that most of the folks in Petersburg stayed home and rode it out until it melted off a few days later.

[hbelkins]

I don't know about snow, but people in Lexington can't drive in the rain. I hate being in Lexington when it rains.

[Road Hog]

Driving on snow and driving on ice are two completely different things. We get much more ice in the South. Snow is a breeze.

[TXtoNJ]

Kansas City can drive in the snow. Oklahoma City can't. So the dividing line is somewhere between I-40 and I-70 in this part of the country.

I was only in Springfield for one winter, and I don't remember whether people could drive in the snow. But I do have an aunt that lives there that told me on icy days she likes to bring up the MoDOT traffic cams and watch people crash into each other. So perhaps the dividing line is US-60.

That makes sense east of Springfield. West of there, I'd say the line goes due west to Ark City, then southwest through Braman, Enid, Weatherford, and Hollis, dipping further southward as the elevation rises.

To put it another way, if you see yellow here, people in the area know how to drive in the snow. Blue, not so much

[Scott5114]

Kansas City can drive in the snow. Oklahoma City can't. So the dividing line is somewhere between I-40 and I-70 in this part of the country.

I was only in Springfield for one winter, and I don't remember whether people could drive in the snow. But I do have an aunt that lives there that told me on icy days she likes to bring up the MoDOT traffic cams and watch people crash into each other. So perhaps the dividing line is US-60.

That makes sense east of Springfield. West of there, I'd say the line goes due west to Ark City, then southwest through Braman, Enid, Weatherford, and Hollis, dipping further southward as the elevation rises.

To put it another way, if you see yellow here, people in the area know how to drive in the snow. Blue, not so much

The line dips southwest, the way US-60 does?


(Granted, this puts Weatherford and Hollis on the "wrong" side of the line you described, but it follows the yellow on your map a lot more closely.)

[SkyPesos]

I-64 seems like a pretty good dividing line east of the Mississippi.

[JREwing78]

From my time growing up in Michigan, that dividing line appears to be Grayling. At least, that's where the population of vehicles in the ditch starts to exceed the population of vehicles on the road. Thank you, lake-effect snow.

[webny99]

I think the relearning that occurs at the first winter storm in areas that see only episodic snow/ice coverage complicates attempts to map a dividing line.  That is essentially what happens in Wichita--typically there are many accidents in the first or second snowstorm and then things settle down for the rest of the winter.

This also happens to some degree here in the Rochester area. We get snow quite frequently - as often as several times per week from December to March - but it still seems to take a few weeks at the beginning of the season for drivers to "remember" how to drive in it.

[Road Hog]

I suspect that a snow day in the South is treated as more of a de facto "holiday" than as a hazardous driving event. In certain regions, it is pretty rare.

But in North Texas we get one good winter weather event a year on average. And enough northern transplants are here to keep things real. Idiots gonna idiot, no matter the latitude.

I have enough (hard-won) snowdriving experience that it's no big deal to me. I live 10 blocks from my job and have a FWD vehicle that can make it. I ain't skeered.

[Dirt Roads]

Kansas City can drive in the snow. Oklahoma City can't. So the dividing line is somewhere between I-40 and I-70 in this part of the country.

I was only in Springfield for one winter, and I don't remember whether people could drive in the snow. But I do have an aunt that lives there that told me on icy days she likes to bring up the MoDOT traffic cams and watch people crash into each other. So perhaps the dividing line is US-60.

That makes sense east of Springfield. West of there, I'd say the line goes due west to Ark City, then southwest through Braman, Enid, Weatherford, and Hollis, dipping further southward as the elevation rises.

To put it another way, if you see yellow here, people in the area know how to drive in the snow. Blue, not so much

This map is amazing.  Even though it is a one-season snapshot, it shows exactly what I was looking for.  Almost all of Kentucky is in "blue", but almost all of West Virginia is not.  Plus, the area of North Carolina along the Norther Tier and counties just west of here are not in the "blue" (but Orange and Durham are in the "blue", how ironic).  If this map is any indication, the folks in the mountainous area of all of western North Carolina can drive in the snow/ice, but the bordering counties in South Carolina, Georgia and Tennessee can't.  That makes sense culturally, but I'm not sure if it is really true.

[Brandon]

From my time growing up in Michigan, that dividing line appears to be Grayling. At least, that's where the population of vehicles in the ditch starts to exceed the population of vehicles on the road. Thank you, lake-effect snow.

Yoopers don't seem to wind up in the ditch much.  I'm rather glad I went to college up there and got to experience real winter with real snow totals.  Saved my ass on 12/23/22 at 11 pm when an asshole turned left too late in front of me (US-30 and Voyager, Joliet), and the roads were still somewhat snow-covered here.

[kphoger]

To put it another way, if you see yellow here, people in the area know how to drive in the snow. Blue, not so much

The line dips southwest, the way US-60 does?

That line does indeed mark a sharp divide between Illinois and Kentucky, which matches my IRL experience:  people know how to drive in winter weather in southern Illinois, but not western Kentucky.

My wife, who grew up in Branson, also has mentioned that the line between getting plenty of snowstorms and getting mainly just ice runs roughly through Springfield, MO.  She remembers quite a few times that Springfield got significantly more snow than Branson, but Branson got a lot of ice.  For what it's worth, icy roads in the Ozarks is no joke.  My mother-in-law is very competent at winter driving, but I remember one time that she had to just leave her car at the bottom of a valley, walk the rest of the way home, and not be able to retrieve her car until three days later.  And when I met my wife, she lived near the top of this hill;  when the roads were icy, actually obeying the stop sign at the bottom, which is for US-65-Business, was a dicey proposition.

[StogieGuy7]

Personally, I think that map has the line too far south. I'd say that the line is more like I-76 to I-70 once you get into W PA. Philly area drivers suck in the snow and it only gets worse through the DMV until you get into the actual south, where snow is a disaster. I was once in Nashville on the morning after it snowed less than an inch. It was like armageddon. Seriously, I'll never forget seeing a brand new Camry perched on someone's front lawn, with the wheels turned full lock and one front tire peeled completely off the rim - with deep sideways tire tracks reciting the path taken by the incompetent driver in question.  It does snow in Nashville now and then, but you'd think it was Singapore based on how they drive in it.  And Atlanta is no better.

No, for decent winter driving ability, you really need to look to New England, upstate NY, N PA, MI, northern halves of OH, IN, IL, then WI, MN, etc.  Oh, and western states where people drive in the mountains a lot. UT, CO, etc.

[skluth]

My wife, who grew up in Branson, also has mentioned that the line between getting plenty of snowstorms and getting mainly just ice runs roughly through Springfield, MO.  She remembers quite a few times that Springfield got significantly more snow than Branson, but Branson got a lot of ice.  For what it's worth, icy roads in the Ozarks is no joke.  My mother-in-law is very competent at winter driving, but I remember one time that she had to just leave her car at the bottom of a valley, walk the rest of the way home, and not be able to retrieve her car until three days later.  And when I met my wife, she lived near the top of this hill;  when the roads were icy, actually obeying the stop sign at the bottom, which is for US-65-Business, was a dicey proposition.

When I lived in St Louis, the common thought was the ice/snow line pretty much ran along I-44 from OKC to St Louis then east along I-70 (though we didn't think about it east of Effingham). It wasn't necessarily right along the interstate but it was usually fairly close and parallel. I can't tell you how many times the rain/sleet/ice lines crossed the St Louis metro where Jeffco got nothing but rain, St Chuck got nothing but snow, and St Louis City and County got the hell mix of rain/sleet/snow. This divide seemed true in spring with severe weather too with fewer severe storms and tornados south of I-44. I have no idea if this line is just urban legend but it happened often enough that it was in our collective conscience.