Milwaukee area freeways

[Rothman]

Nah. It's not that different. It brought out the same nonsense that you're saying here. Most of the traffic is heading downtown. So it will go downtown.

And yes. Keep it as is. But don't replace it when that time comes.

Park East: 50,000 Vehicles per day
794: 100,000 Vehicles per day
Hoan Bridge: 40,000 Vehicles per day

Talk about bringing nonsense to the conversation. The Park East shares nothing in common with this.

No this actually makes my point. Most of the traffic is going to or coming from downtown. You don't need an interstate highway to accomplish that. In fact, I think given these numbers, it makes even MORE sense than I thought previously.

So 100,000 cars are supposed to get off at the Marquette interchange and onto city streets. Not sure in what world that makes sense, but you do you.

Hm.  Depends on where that 100k traffic count was taken on I-794.  I'd doubt they were all headed downtown or would do so if I-794 was shortened or removed.

[mgk920]

Kind of a tangent here, but what were the estimated AADT numbers had the Park Freeway (both east AND west) been completed as originally planned?

Mike

[SEWIGuy]

Nah. It's not that different. It brought out the same nonsense that you're saying here. Most of the traffic is heading downtown. So it will go downtown.

And yes. Keep it as is. But don't replace it when that time comes.

Park East: 50,000 Vehicles per day
794: 100,000 Vehicles per day
Hoan Bridge: 40,000 Vehicles per day

Talk about bringing nonsense to the conversation. The Park East shares nothing in common with this.

No this actually makes my point. Most of the traffic is going to or coming from downtown. You don't need an interstate highway to accomplish that. In fact, I think given these numbers, it makes even MORE sense than I thought previously.

So 100,000 cars are supposed to get off at the Marquette interchange and onto city streets. Not sure in what world that makes sense, but you do you.

Someone doesn't understand how traffic counts work.

[GeekJedi]

Nah. It's not that different. It brought out the same nonsense that you're saying here. Most of the traffic is heading downtown. So it will go downtown.

And yes. Keep it as is. But don't replace it when that time comes.

Park East: 50,000 Vehicles per day
794: 100,000 Vehicles per day
Hoan Bridge: 40,000 Vehicles per day

Talk about bringing nonsense to the conversation. The Park East shares nothing in common with this.

No this actually makes my point. Most of the traffic is going to or coming from downtown. You don't need an interstate highway to accomplish that. In fact, I think given these numbers, it makes even MORE sense than I thought previously.

So 100,000 cars are supposed to get off at the Marquette interchange and onto city streets. Not sure in what world that makes sense, but you do you.

Someone doesn't understand how traffic counts work.

Someone is very condescending.

[Rothman]

Nah. It's not that different. It brought out the same nonsense that you're saying here. Most of the traffic is heading downtown. So it will go downtown.

And yes. Keep it as is. But don't replace it when that time comes.

Park East: 50,000 Vehicles per day
794: 100,000 Vehicles per day
Hoan Bridge: 40,000 Vehicles per day

Talk about bringing nonsense to the conversation. The Park East shares nothing in common with this.

No this actually makes my point. Most of the traffic is going to or coming from downtown. You don't need an interstate highway to accomplish that. In fact, I think given these numbers, it makes even MORE sense than I thought previously.

So 100,000 cars are supposed to get off at the Marquette interchange and onto city streets. Not sure in what world that makes sense, but you do you.

Someone doesn't understand how traffic counts work.

Someone is very condescending.

Dang, the audacity to say that after your last post.

[triplemultiplex]

WisDOT's interactive traffic count map is located here in case anyone wants to pan around and see what the numbers are for themselves. 

Not to be pedantic, but the highest AADT on 794 is 94,400.  This drops to 67,700 "east of Water St".  Then down to 40,000 on the Hoan.

Adding up the AADT for all the ramps between the Hoan Bridge and the Milwaukee River is 25,900.  Subtract that from the Hoan's 40k means a thru traffic AADT of 14,100.
Not that impressive if the argument is this entire freeway is needed for the city's freeway system to function.  14k is what Water Street has downtown.

These numbers bolster my position that the city will be fine if 794 doesn't go all the way through downtown as a freeway.

[JoePCool14]

^ But that implies that no traffic is using both the east-west segment and the bridge, which I've done and certainly others have too.

[SEWIGuy]

WisDOT's interactive traffic count map is located here in case anyone wants to pan around and see what the numbers are for themselves. 

Not to be pedantic, but the highest AADT on 794 is 94,400.  This drops to 67,700 "east of Water St".  Then down to 40,000 on the Hoan.

Adding up the AADT for all the ramps between the Hoan Bridge and the Milwaukee River is 25,900.  Subtract that from the Hoan's 40k means a thru traffic AADT of 14,100.
Not that impressive if the argument is this entire freeway is needed for the city's freeway system to function.  14k is what Water Street has downtown.

These numbers bolster my position that the city will be fine if 794 doesn't go all the way through downtown as a freeway.

Exactly

[triplemultiplex]

^ But that implies that no traffic is using both the east-west segment and the bridge, which I've done and certainly others have too.

What?  Its 14,100 vehicles a day on average.  Not zero.  Where are you getting that implication of "no traffic" from?

[hobsini2]

What the traffic counts say to me is that people are using 794 for heading to Maier Park and the Museum Campus on Lincoln Memorial and maybe even the Deer District (vs Kilbourn). Personally, I have used 794 more as an entrance into and exit out of the Marquette than going over to the Hoan Bridge.

But that being said, I would still like at least a Parkway between the Marquette and Hoan.

[Hobart]

What the traffic counts say to me is that people are using 794 for heading to Maier Park and the Museum Campus on Lincoln Memorial and maybe even the Deer District (vs Kilbourn). Personally, I have used 794 more as an entrance into and exit out of the Marquette than going over to the Hoan Bridge.

But that being said, I would still like at least a Parkway between the Marquette and Hoan.

This has me curious... right now, you can't access the tunnel to Kilbourn Avenue from I-43 northbound; you can only get to it when going from I-94 eastbound to I-43 north on the ramp. Do you think maybe part of the traffic concerns of replacing the elevated freeway with a parkway could be addressed if they also added access to this ramp from I-43 north?

[SSOWorld]

https://www.jsonline.com/story/money/real-estate/commercial/2023/04/26/new-downtown-milwaukee-plan-includes-a-focus-on-removing-i-794/70150254007/

Goddam John Q Norquist has a "son".  Here's the next NUMTOT of Milwaukee

[thspfc]

WISDOT has released their I-794 rebuild/removal concepts

https://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2023/06/23/dots-i-794-concepts-development.html

I'm a fan of removing it rather than rebuilding it. If they go that route, which is certainly not out of the question considering Milwaukee's freeway history, that would spell the end of I-794. The freeway from Lincoln Memorial southward would still exist but it would not connect to I-94.

[The Ghostbuster]

I strongly oppose the freeway removal proposals, and strongly support the freeway improvement proposals (although I don't have a preference, except not the replacement-in-kind proposal). When former mayor John Norquist proposed to remove Interstate 794 between the Marquette and Lake Interchanges, there was near universal opposition from elected officials and civic leaders outside of Milwaukee: http://wisconsinhighways.org/listings/WiscHwys400-894.html#I-794. I'm not sure if such opposition will arise again, but I hope it does. Originally, former mayor Frank Ziegler supported building a surface boulevard instead of an elevated Highway, although he later said building the elevated freeway was the right decision: http://wisconsinhighways.org/milwaukee/eastwest.html.

[Henry]

I also hate freeway removals, with some exceptions. NY 895 is one, because it replaced what was basically a forgotten expressway in the Bronx. Hopefully, the soon-to-be-former I-375 in Detroit will be done right too.

[thspfc]

I strongly oppose the freeway removal proposals, and strongly support the freeway improvement proposals (although I don't have a preference, except not the replacement-in-kind proposal). When former mayor John Norquist proposed to remove Interstate 794 between the Marquette and Lake Interchanges, there was near universal opposition from elected officials and civic leaders outside of Milwaukee: http://wisconsinhighways.org/listings/WiscHwys400-894.html#I-794. I'm not sure if such opposition will arise again, but I hope it does. Originally, former mayor Frank Ziegler supported building a surface boulevard instead of an elevated Highway, although he later said building the elevated freeway was the right decision: http://wisconsinhighways.org/milwaukee/eastwest.html.

Why?

[Plutonic Panda]

I hope it gets rebuilt. I generally support freeways and I support freeway removals like the 375 in Detroit. But with this one, if they could tunnel and better connected to the existing freeway, net work, it could be a very useful Road. It already seems to be useful as it is and should be rebuilt.

[Hobart]

The biggest concern I have is how to reconnect the Hoan Bridge and the Marquette interchange to the new surface-level boulevard, and what will happen to the existing St. Paul Avenue and Clybourn Street. Will they rip out Clybourn Street entirely? Will they just add new eastbound lanes? There's many different ways they could do it, and building a two-way boulevard right next to Clybourn Street sounds like the worst one.

Looking at AADTs as well, the closest comparable surface boulevard to what is proposed, McKinley Avenue, has an AADT of about 25,000 according to WisDOT's site. When it was the Park Freeway, the AADT hit 50,000 for 2002. There is a precedent for people not using the surface boulevard that replaces a freeway here, which very well may happen.

Assuming the same conditions (AADT goes down 50% or more within 20 years), AADT might hit, what, 35,000 a few years after the conversion? This is only slightly more traffic than what Lincoln Memorial Drive carries in its southern segment.

If they absolutely must have a freeway, I'd rather see it in a trench so the city's not cut in half by a completely elevated freeway (Boston Central Artery, anyone?). I really don't think it needs to stay a freeway though, from guesstimating AADT trends with a similar conversion that happened a long time ago, and my experiences driving on it and looking at the relatively low amount of congestion on it from the building my internship is in, which has a great view of I-794 from the fourth floor. Plus, from my experience living down there without a car, it serves as a really unusual, distinct division between the historic Third Ward, the Intermodal Station, and the rest of downtown; the freeway definitely makes walking or biking in the area a bit more nerve-racking than without.

[thspfc]

The biggest concern I have is how to reconnect the Hoan Bridge and the Marquette interchange to the new surface-level boulevard, and what will happen to the existing St. Paul Avenue and Clybourn Street. Will they rip out Clybourn Street entirely? Will they just add new eastbound lanes? There's many different ways they could do it, and building a two-way boulevard right next to Clybourn Street sounds like the worst one.

Looking at AADTs as well, the closest comparable surface boulevard to what is proposed, McKinley Avenue, has an AADT of about 25,000 according to WisDOT's site. When it was the Park Freeway, the AADT hit 50,000 for 2002. There is a precedent for people not using the surface boulevard that replaces a freeway here, which very well may happen.

Assuming the same conditions (AADT goes down 50% or more within 20 years), AADT might hit, what, 35,000 a few years after the conversion? This is only slightly more traffic than what Lincoln Memorial Drive carries in its southern segment.

If they absolutely must have a freeway, I'd rather see it in a trench so the city's not cut in half by a completely elevated freeway (Boston Central Artery, anyone?). I really don't think it needs to stay a freeway though, from guesstimating AADT trends with a similar conversion that happened a long time ago, and my experiences driving on it and looking at the relatively low amount of congestion on it from the building my internship is in, which has a great view of I-794 from the fourth floor. Plus, from my experience living down there without a car, it serves as a really unusual, distinct division between the historic Third Ward, the Intermodal Station, and the rest of downtown; the freeway definitely makes walking or biking in the area a bit more nerve-racking than without.

Agree with all of this, and would add that even if the freeway is removed, there would still be freeflow connection from the Marquette Interchange to the heart of downtown. Exactly which street the stubs would end at is unclear, but I think Water St would be the best choice.

[SEWIGuy]

Tear it down. It should have never been built.

[dvferyance]

Tear it down. It should have never been built.

Why? When the Park East was torn down nothing was built there in over a decade and if it wasn't for the Bucks new arena who knows how much longer it would have sat there empty. And we were told 20 years ago that land was gold. I can't beleive we are even discussing this.

[SEWIGuy]

Tear it down. It should have never been built.

Why? When the Park East was torn down nothing was built there in over a decade and if it wasn't for the Bucks new arena who knows how much longer it would have sat there empty. And we were told 20 years ago that land was gold. I can't beleive we are even discussing this.

Nothing was built there because of the County's idiotic land-use policies. I would guess everyone learned their lesson from that nonsense. Regardless, even though it took too long to develop the corridor, it is MUCH better now than when the Park East cut through.

And you can't believe people are discussing this? It's a short, elevated freeway that is in need of costly maintenance and separates two Milwaukee neighborhoods from one another. It's plainly obvious why it is under discussion.

[Plutonic Panda]

It's so shortsighted to get rid of this just because it isn't better connected.

[Revive 755]

It's a short, elevated freeway that is in need of costly maintenance and separates two Milwaukee neighborhoods from one another. It's plainly obvious why it is under discussion.

The river to the south also 'divides' the neighborhoods, maybe it should be covered/removed as well?  Could always split the flow with multiple pipes under the different streets[/semi sarcastic].

And the particularly section is part of a much greater corridor, unlike the Park East which didn't have another higher type road connecting to it on the east end.

[Hobart]

It's a short, elevated freeway that is in need of costly maintenance and separates two Milwaukee neighborhoods from one another. It's plainly obvious why it is under discussion.

The river to the south also 'divides' the neighborhoods, maybe it should be covered/removed as well?  Could always split the flow with multiple pipes under the different streets[/semi sarcastic].

And the particularly section is part of a much greater corridor, unlike the Park East which didn't have another higher type road connecting to it on the east end.

If the river divides neighborhoods so badly, why shouldn't we mitigate the barriers we can, you know, actually control, rather than having some childish dream of running them through culverts? Ruining a perfectly good river is a very different beast than tearing down a concrete monstrosity, a huge scar on downtown!

The Lake Parkway really isn't a "higher type" road either. If you've been in the area, you probably noticed that there's an at-grade, signalized intersection at Oklahoma Avenue, south of the Port of Milwaukee... where most trucks would want to go anyways. The south end isn't another freeway... it ends abruptly at Pennsylvania Avenue. There's talks of extending it south to STH-100 (another suburban arterial), but that's it. The higher type road you speak of continues to make the Hoan Bridge live up to its original name: the "Bridge to Nowhere"!