Virginia

[VTGoose]

The modern day culture of NOVA is so closely related to Virginia Tech football ....

That seems like a serious exaggeration. Sure, there are plenty of VPI fans and alumni, but to call it part of the "culture" is a major exaggeration.

The expected response from someone connected to a school that occasionally fields a football team.    And it's Virginia Tech thank you very much. VPI is reserved for very old alumni (I'm just an old alum who went through the transition from VPI to VT) and diplomas.

I've lived in Northern Virginia since 1974 and the only football that's ever really been a part of the local "culture" was the great Redskins teams of the first Joe Gibbs era (the 1990s through 1992) when they played in four Super Bowls, won three, and advanced to one other NFC championship game.

Pittsburgh says "hi" and sniffs at the feeble sports teams of Washington, whose fans can't hold a candle to Stiller and Penguin fans.

[to bring this back to roads] As to travel, a recent report by The Virginia Rail Policy Institute, a transportation service in Henrico County, suggests that the New River Valley passenger rail service include a stop at Virginia Tech.

"The Virginia Rail Policy Institute is proposing a new alignment, which they have referred to in the report as the "Blacksburg Rail Extension"  or the Hokie Line. It would branch out from the Virginian Line in Ellet Valley and ultimately run to Lane Stadium.

The report pointed out that the V-Line rail facilities could be redesigned to transport thousands, while also avoiding I-81 and US-460 altogether." (https://www.wsls.com/news/local/2022/07/21/new-river-valley-passenger-rail-service-should-include-stop-at-virginia-tech-report-says/)

Those in the know try to avoid I-81 on football weekends and definitely don't plan any travel there on the Sunday after Thanksgiving. That is when the interstate is choked with all the NOVA kids heading back to Blacksburg and to that lesser institution in Harrisonburg.

Bruce in Blacksburg -- VT '78

[1995hoo]

I hesitated to say anything in response to the prior post because I knew you were just going to engage in a typical VPI attack on UVA football, but you haven't rebutted the main point I made at all, which is that the argument that VPI football is somehow central to the "culture" of Northern Virginia is a rather serious exaggeration. It's not. Even you haven't argued that VPI football games are a compelling reason to widen I-81. I assume they typically play seven home games per season, which is typical of most Division I-A teams. Seven days per year is not typically a compelling reason to spend several billion dollars to widen hundreds of miles of Interstate, as opposed to making targeted improvements (like Maryland expanding the Arena Drive interchange to serve FedEx Field). That's why I think Dirt Roads was mostly being facetious (and, if indeed it were a reason to widen I-81, why didn't Dirt Roads argue that I-66 needs to be widened as well for the same reason since it connects the main part of Northern Virginia to I-81?).

With that said, I certainly think I-81 does need improvement and widening and of course that will benefit Blacksburg, along with many other places.

[74/171FAN]

Those in the know try to avoid I-81 on football weekends and definitely don't plan any travel there on the Sunday after Thanksgiving. That is when the interstate is choked with all the NOVA kids heading back to Blacksburg and to that lesser institution in Harrisonburg.

Back when I was at VT, some students would use SR 785 (which ties into US 460 BUS in Blacksburg as Harding Ave and Roanoke St) to VA/WV 311 to avoid some of the I-81 congestion. 

I do not remember hearing a ton about alternate routes beyond that (besides US 11 of course).

[VTGoose]

I hesitated to say anything in response to the prior post because I knew you were just going to engage in a typical VPI attack on UVA football,

The Commonwealth Cup says "hi." 

but you haven't rebutted the main point I made at all, which is that the argument that VPI football is somehow central to the "culture" of Northern Virginia is a rather serious exaggeration. It's not.

With that said, I certainly think I-81 does need improvement and widening and of course that will benefit Blacksburg, along with many other places.

Virginia Tech does have a presence in NOVA, both of students and graduates. In the fall of 2021, 10.7% of the undergraduate enrollment was from Loudoun County and 21.4% of the enrollment was students from Fairfax County.

Now, how that lends to a "culture" of that region I can't address because I live at the other end of that pipeline. But Hokie football isn't and shouldn't be the sole reason that I-81 gets improved. It is a major artery connecting south to north and was over capacity years ago. The sooner it gets fixed (and the sooner passenger rail gets to the New River Valley and beyond), the better life will be in the better part of the Commonwealth.

[Dirt Roads]

I hesitated to say anything in response to the prior post because I knew you were just going to engage in a typical VPI attack on UVA football, but you haven't rebutted the main point I made at all, which is that the argument that VPI football is somehow central to the "culture" of Northern Virginia is a rather serious exaggeration. It's not. Even you haven't argued that VPI football games are a compelling reason to widen I-81. I assume they typically play seven home games per season, which is typical of most Division I-A teams. Seven days per year is not typically a compelling reason to spend several billion dollars to widen hundreds of miles of Interstate, as opposed to making targeted improvements (like Maryland expanding the Arena Drive interchange to serve FedEx Field). That's why I think Dirt Roads was mostly being facetious (and, if indeed it were a reason to widen I-81, why didn't Dirt Roads argue that I-66 needs to be widened as well for the same reason since it connects the main part of Northern Virginia to I-81?).

With that said, I certainly think I-81 does need improvement and widening and of course that will benefit Blacksburg, along with many other places.

No intention to whack UVA football whatsoever.  In fact, I admire that the UVA Board of Visitors is resistant to constant pressure from its fanbase to spent huge amounts of money to get into "big-time sports".  It's my understanding that Virginia Tech Board of Visitors has done the same thing, but wished they could make that jump. 

Indeed, I am being somewhat facetious about whether Virginia Tech game day traffic should have a strong role in how VDOT allocates its resources.  But I highly suspect that VDOT (like many state DOTs) has quietly collected traffic data along all of I-81 (and much of US-29, for that matter) related to game day surge traffic.  Whether you agree or not, I'm convinced that game day traffic was the primary reason to prioritize the additional [truck lane] on I-81 up Christiansburg Mountain ahead of all of the other widening projects conceived. 

Regarding the "NOVA Culture", Virginia Tech has the seventh largest alumni base of all the FBS schools on the East Coast (behind Florida, Rutgers, Penn State, Maryland, Florida State and Georgia).  (We are quickly losing ground to Central Florida, South Florida and Liberty, but that won't matter much for many decades, if ever).  So if you discount smaller markets such as Harrisburg, the singular impact of Virginia Tech football on NOVA is second on that list, but still far distant to the University of Georgia's impact on Metro Atlanta.  Plus, the impact of college football in the Washington D.C. metro is much stronger than say New York or Philadelphia, as compared to professional sports.  I could run the numbers nationwide, and I suspect you will find the same general trend.  Since the current metric is impact to the bottom line of a large conference, Virginia Tech now ranks third only to the University of Washington and either UNC/NC State (or both) when you factor in a reasonable value for the number of television households.  (I assure you that nobody else is using reasonable TV market numbers when looking at Notre Dame, Clemson and Florida State). 

If I stretch that argument into other areas, it makes perfect sense that UVA basketball is also part of the current NOVA culture (just not as big in raw numbers, particularly on game day).  Would it be too much if I suggest that US-29 gets worse traffic from NOVA on Thanksgiving Saturday when Virginia Tech is playing in Charlottesville, than when Duke is playing at UVA for a Saturday night game? 

Rabbit hole for another thread:  If and only if NC State makes a run at the ACC football title this year and lands a big-money bowl game, you are going to see the states of Virginia (VT/UVA) and North Carolina (UNC/NC State and not Duke) play heavily on this crazy conference realignment situation.  Or keep the ACC strong enough to stay alive for a bit longer.  Mostly because of the value of the NOVA college sports market.

[1995hoo]

No intention to whack UVA football whatsoever.  ....

I was referring to VPIGoose, not you.

[VTGoose]

The Southern Connector from Martinsville to North Carolina is back in the news. Dwayne Yancey has a long analysis of the region, the economics, the resistance, and the lack of funding for the new highway. Cardinal News is a free alternative to the dying Roanoke Times and does a pretty good job of covering (and continuing to cover, such as flooding in far Southwest) important stories.

See https://cardinalnews.org/2022/08/10/in-southside-a-new-push-for-the-southern-connector-around-martinsville/ to read about how "a similar group of legislators and business leaders [to those pushing for the Coalfields Expressway] is trying to raise the profile of — and make a new push for — a proposed road through Henry County that they believe is essential to the region's economic health."

[hbelkins]

Regarding this whole "VPI" vs. "VT" thing, it used to be called "VPI & ...." something. I knew what it was back in 2003, when I spent a week in the hotel on campus at a training class (and met VTGoose and Rush Wickes for lunch one day).

Was it "SC" for "State College?"

[1995hoo]

Regarding this whole "VPI" vs. "VT" thing, it used to be called "VPI & ...." something. I knew what it was back in 2003, when I spent a week in the hotel on campus at a training class (and met VTGoose and Rush Wickes for lunch one day).

Was it "SC" for "State College?"

Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State [sic] University. At one time it was Virginia A&M.

[1995hoo]

More fun on I-395 this morning.

https://twitter.com/STATter911/status/1557762678550138883

[Dirt Roads]

Regarding this whole "VPI" vs. "VT" thing, it used to be called "VPI & ...." something. I knew what it was back in 2003, when I spent a week in the hotel on campus at a training class (and met VTGoose and Rush Wickes for lunch one day).

Was it "SC" for "State College?"

When I got to Blacksburg, I got stuck in the front row of Freshman orientation beside the old Gobbler mascot and watched in horror as President Lavery announced that we were never to use the letters VPI ever again, just simply call it Virginia Tech.  It was a way to separate us from our military brother VMI (and tie us to our sister UVA).

Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State [sic] University. At one time it was Virginia A&M.

Am I the only one who caught that?  My wife went to the Medical College of Virginia in Richmond and like so many, refused to acknowledge that it was part of Virginia Commonwealth University.  Until VCU went to the Final Four (we still have a bunch of T-shirts).  For the record, Virginia Tech was once VAMC (which still meant Virginia Agricultural and Mechanical College).

Can I route us back on topic?  I believe that Virginia Tech is the only college to own a piece of the Interstate system.  The Virginia Smart Road was funded as part of the Ellett Valley Expressway (I-781), which at this point may never be completed and signed.  There are a few freeways in Virginia that were named "Expressway", but the term still catches me off-guard.

[74/171FAN]

The Virginia Smart Road was funded as part of the Ellett Valley Expressway (I-781), which at this point may never be completed and signed.  There are a few freeways in Virginia that were named "Expressway", but the term still catches me off-guard.

I always heard of it as part of Future I-73.  I never heard of it being part of an I-781.  (I would think I would have heard about that designation via mapmikey a long time ago.)

[Rothman]

The Virginia Smart Road was funded as part of the Ellett Valley Expressway (I-781), which at this point may never be completed and signed.  There are a few freeways in Virginia that were named "Expressway", but the term still catches me off-guard.

I always heard of it as part of Future I-73.  I never heard of it being part of an I-781.  (I would think I would have heard about that designation via mapmikey a long time ago.)

Yep, citation needed on this one.

[VTGoose]

The Virginia Smart Road was funded as part of the Ellett Valley Expressway (I-781), which at this point may never be completed and signed.  There are a few freeways in Virginia that were named "Expressway", but the term still catches me off-guard.

I always heard of it as part of Future I-73.  I never heard of it being part of an I-781.  (I would think I would have heard about that designation via mapmikey a long time ago.)

That's a new one on me and I followed the Smart Road controversy from before the beginning*. There were two or three routes out of the 15 that were put on paper that went down the Ellett Valley to hit I-81 around the Ironto exit but they were rejected for cost and environmental reasons. The I-73 tag came into play much later after the road had been built but that is still just a dream -- there is just too much in the way (terrain and environment) between West Virginia and North Carolina for such a road to be contemplated. Even with football traffic, the current U.S. 460 highway between Blacksburg and I-81 is still adequate, making it difficult to justify completing the Smart Road to reach I-81.

A big what-if (and I have other things to research so I really haven't dug into this) was the routing of I-81. I can't cite hard sources, but word was that one routing in play was a northern road from around Dublin roughly following U.S. 11 to Fairlawn, then turning left to follow the VA 114 corridor east to drop down the mountain into the Ellett Valley and on to Roanoke. This would have put an interstate highway between Blacksburg and Christiansburg, providing easy access to both towns. But it didn't come to be and we have the still somewhat-inconvenient drive from Blacksburg to get anywhere east or south.

*In the late '70s I worked in production at the News Messenger (then moved to the Radford News Journal as a reporter). At that time, U.S. 460 had bypasses around Christiansburg and Blacksburg, with the "twinned" original Blacksburg Road as the connection between the two. As Virginia Tech grew under T. Marshall Hahn that portion of the highway became inadequate at heavy traffic times, especially at the single-lane left turn to get on the north end of the Christiansburg Bypass. Local officials called on VDOT for solutions (other than adding more traffic lights at various intersections). Band-aids were applied -- a second lane was added to the left turn, then a third lane was added to the eastbound side of 460 from VA 114 to the turn lane. It wasn't until 10 years later that the actual study to fix the problem was started, resulting in the 15 choices (including "do nothing") with "connect the bypasses" winning out.

**It took a little while, and my former boss, to firmly establish the current name of my alma mater and long-time employer. The land grant school started as Virginia Agricultural and Mechanical College, established to train farmers and engineers. It later added "and Polytechnic Institute" to its name in 1896, but the full name was a mouthful. People just started calling it "Virginia Polytechnic Institute" for short. The "Agricultural and Mechanical College" was dropped from the name in 1944 making it just VPI. In 1970 "and State University" was added to the name, resulting in VPI&SU as the tag (pronounced "Vippy Sue"). In the 1980s there was a push to fix the problem of a long name, the short "Virginia Tech" in popular use, and the confusion about whether there were two different colleges. "Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University" is used in official places, such as on diplomas, with "Virginia Tech" the preferred reference in most cases.  Now you know.

Bruce in Blacksburg

[Dirt Roads]

The Virginia Smart Road was funded as part of the Ellett Valley Expressway (I-781), which at this point may never be completed and signed.  There are a few freeways in Virginia that were named "Expressway", but the term still catches me off-guard.

I always heard of it as part of Future I-73.  I never heard of it being part of an I-781.  (I would think I would have heard about that designation via mapmikey a long time ago.)

Pretty sure that I read about I-781 several times in the Washington Post soon after moving to NOVA in the early 1990s.  Maybe someone can find something on a newspaper service.  Can't find anything online, but Scott has a great webpage with more details:  http://www.roadstothefuture.com/Smart_Road.html

That's a new one on me and I followed the Smart Road controversy from before the beginning*. There were two or three routes out of the 15 that were put on paper that went down the Ellett Valley to hit I-81 around the Ironto exit but they were rejected for cost and environmental reasons. The I-73 tag came into play much later after the road had been built but that is still just a dream -- there is just too much in the way (terrain and environment) between West Virginia and North Carolina for such a road to be contemplated. Even with football traffic, the current U.S. 460 highway between Blacksburg and I-81 is still adequate, making it difficult to justify completing the Smart Road to reach I-81.

That was my understanding of why the Ellett Valley Expressway project died out.  As Virginia Tech grew in size, the need for a freeway between Blacksburg and I-81 became a high priority and the cost of the Ellett Valley Expressway was prohibitive as compared to connecting the Blacksburg Bypass to the Christiansburg Bypass, then extending the latter a short distance to I-81.  But a short section of the Ellett Valley was already funded and approved by FHWA, then switched over to the Smart Road concept once it was obsolete.

By the way, I had a huge gas-guzzler when I was at Virginia Tech and whenever I drove to Roanoke I would usually take Ellett Road to North Fork Road (all of which is SR-603) to the Ironto exit, just to save mileage.

[AlexandriaVA]

IIRC, VT didn't have a major following until the 1990s, with the success of Frank Beamer's teams in the old Big East.

Despite its proximity to DC, UMD football always suffered in the shadow of PSU's eastern juggernaut of a program.

Ironically, PSU is closer to DC, as well as NOVA, than VT is. The drive to PSU's game days has also been aided by the completion of I-99 (possibly the most worthless Interstate east of the Mississippi) from Bedford to State College.

[bluecountry]

they want to siphon sparse funding for their own pork that is funded by the relative prosperity of the urban areas. 

[Not sure why I continue to respond to this elitist troll, but here goes]

Pretty sad attitude -- "We got ours, too bad for you, go pound sand" instead of looking at how improvements in other parts of the state will help the whole state by making it possible for businesses to locate in Southside and Southwest, bringing more jobs with better salaries -- and ultimately more tax revenue from the development and increased employment.

Pretty selfish of you to think limited transportation funds should be used to 'attempt' to spur the economy of SW VA.
You already had that with ARC, and it didn't work.
It's naive and ignorant to think you are a freeway away from attracting good paying jobs in a region that continues to endorse extractive industries.

But mostly, you are wrong as transportation funds need to spent where transportation needs are greatest, and that is the I-95 corridor.
They are not to spent as pork handouts to extractive coal loving regions.

My tax dollars should go to fixing I-95 congestion, and safety, not to helping another Dollar General pop up by Taylor Mountain.

And if you never travel on I-95, you want your tax dollars to be spent on finishing US 460 between Grundy and Breaks, or widening I-81 to handle the heavy truck traffic. Works both ways.

95 is a much a bigger local, state, and national priority since the surrender at Appotomax Courthouse.

I-95 between Northern Virginia and Richmond was a pure HOT MESS. Recently, I was going Southbound from 495 onto 95 South. Everything was going fine until just past Dale City. And, You guessed it. It was mostly STOP than Go. Especially around the Fredericksburg area. But wait. There's more!! It almost continued towards Richmond. Now, I noticed some new digital Speed Limit signs between Mile 115 and 130 along Northbound 95. Common sense would tell VDOT to install them ALL along 95 in BOTH directions. The WHOLE 177 miles between The MD and NC State Lines. Then everybody will hopefully know what to expect. Get it right, VDOT !!!!! And while they're at it; They need to install them along I-64 between Richmond and Chesapeake / Suffolk. Since they're turning I-64 Between the HRBT and the Bowers Hill-Suffolk end into the NJ Turnpike; Put those digital speed limit signs there, too.

Oh it is SO SO frustrating!
I drive the NJTP all the time, it is not THAT hard, just do what they did between exit 6-9!
It needs to be bi-directional HOV to Rt 17, with the local/express continuing to exit 126, and then 8 lanes at least from exit 104 to 295.

What makes it so so frustrating is the ROW is mostly there.  It is just trees!  This is NOT that hard a concept.
Hell I would be all for just tolling it from 295 to the HOT lanes in Stafford.  The current system is needlessly awful.

[bluecountry]

The modern day culture of NOVA is so closely related to Virginia Tech football ....

That seems like a serious exaggeration. Sure, there are plenty of VPI fans and alumni, but to call it part of the "culture" is a major exaggeration.

The expected response from someone connected to a school that occasionally fields a football team.    And it's Virginia Tech thank you very much. VPI is reserved for very old alumni (I'm just an old alum who went through the transition from VPI to VT) and diplomas.

I've lived in Northern Virginia since 1974 and the only football that's ever really been a part of the local "culture" was the great Redskins teams of the first Joe Gibbs era (the 1990s through 1992) when they played in four Super Bowls, won three, and advanced to one other NFC championship game.

Pittsburgh says "hi" and sniffs at the feeble sports teams of Washington, whose fans can't hold a candle to Stiller and Penguin fans.

Whoa, you are a Penguins fan?
OK, well it looks like we have common ground; I am a Penguins fan and I especially hate DC/BAL teams (Commanders, Caps, Orioles).

[sprjus4]

What makes it so so frustrating is the ROW is mostly there.  It is just trees!  This is NOT that hard a concept.

I say the same thing as I drive down I-81 stuck in bumper to bumper traffic or walls of trucks... there's all the room, why not widen this?

[Takumi]

95 is a much a bigger local, state, and national priority since the surrender at Appotomax Courthouse.

I don't know, there's that famous quote from General Grant about how US 460 should be upgraded to an interstate corridor.

Also it's Appomattox. But I'm not surprised you spelled it like Potomac.

[74/171FAN]

95 is a much a bigger local, state, and national priority since the surrender at Appotomax Courthouse.

I don't know, there's that famous quote from General Grant about how US 460 should be upgraded to an interstate corridor.

Also it's Appomattox. But I'm not surprised you spelled it like Potomac.

I could see Fritzowl taking this post and running with it somehow.   

[Mapmikey]

If you want to know what VDOT actually supports for I-95, here is the report - http://www.ctb.virginia.gov/resources/projects/cip/i-95_cip_final_report_092021.pdf

They are more inclined to improve bus/rail capacities which is a much smaller cost than the $12B they say it would cost to widen I-95 by a lane in each direction from Thornburg to Springfield.

North of Dale City the ROW is mostly NOT there to make the Express lanes bi-directional.

VDOT never seems to publish what the compensation penalty would be for various widenings in locations where the Express lanes already exist, but (especially NB) an extra lane would be helpful even if it is open only when the Express lanes are open in the opposite direction.

VDOT also solicited adding a 4th lane between Stafford Exit 140 and Centreport Pkwy Exit 136 as part of the DDI project at Stafford but no bids came in that fit within the budget VDOT had in mind.

Widening I-81 to 6-lanes everywhere was estimated to cost $4B at least 15 years ago, so I'm sure that number is double by now.  So VDOT's entire annual budget is only $6-7B...so I-81 will be piecemealed to death but I believe will be fully 6-lanes at some point.

[WillWeaverRVA]

95 is a much a bigger local, state, and national priority since the surrender at Appotomax Courthouse.

I don't know, there's that famous quote from General Grant about how US 460 should be upgraded to an interstate corridor.

Also it's Appomattox. But I'm not surprised you spelled it like Potomac.

Ah yes. Don't forget when Patrick Henry made that famous speech about how I-295 should be routed around both Richmond and Petersburg.

[hbelkins]

95 is a much a bigger local, state, and national priority since the surrender at Appotomax Courthouse.

I don't know, there's that famous quote from General Grant about how US 460 should be upgraded to an interstate corridor.

Also it's Appomattox. But I'm not surprised you spelled it like Potomac.

Ah yes. Don't forget when Patrick Henry made that famous speech about how I-295 should be routed around both Richmond and Petersburg.

Give me an 85 mph speed limit on I-366 or give me death!

[Takumi]

95 is a much a bigger local, state, and national priority since the surrender at Appotomax Courthouse.

I don't know, there's that famous quote from General Grant about how US 460 should be upgraded to an interstate corridor.

Also it's Appomattox. But I'm not surprised you spelled it like Potomac.

Ah yes. Don't forget when Patrick Henry made that famous speech about how I-295 should be routed around both Richmond and Petersburg.

Give me an 85 mph speed limit on I-366 or give me death!

And as we all know, Jamestown was founded by English explorers who were looking for an alternate route to I-64 on the Peninsula.