I-95 Delaware River Scudder Falls bridge replacement (toll?)

Started by mightyace, December 22, 2009, 08:03:31 PM

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kevinb1994

Quote from: PHLBOS on June 25, 2019, 05:30:46 PM
Quote from: odditude on June 25, 2019, 05:13:54 PM
Courtesy of Zeffy on the NJ thread:

Quote from: Zeffy on June 25, 2019, 04:57:27 PM
Sorry for the garbage dash-cam photos, but I saw these lying around heading into PA on the Scudders Falls Bridge. They've actually made a fair amount of work in the past couple of months.


*Facepalm* on that BGS legend below the PAY TOLL 2 MILES sign. 

IMHO, it would be better to either have similar signage to what the NYS Thruway (I-87/287) has on approaching the Tappan Zee with a 2 MILES (or 2 MILES AHEAD) in the main sign legend or maintain similar to what's shown above but eliminate the additional/redundant I-295 shield and the confusing, alternating direction cardinals so that the panel simply reads:

TOLL 2 MILES              (IMHO, the term PAY implies stopping at a toll plaza)
             SOUTH
295  TO   95
Philadelphia

Actually, the placement of the "TO"  is more troublesome. Shouldn't it be above the shields?


roadman65

In many states yes, but NJ its normal.  Not knocking the Garden State, but they always had their own way of doing things including never using where other states having roads lead to another road using that other one as a control city, NJ would leave the control city blank and sign Route X TO Route Y side by side.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

kevinb1994

Quote from: roadman65 on June 25, 2019, 08:45:36 PM
In many states yes, but NJ its normal.  Not knocking the Garden State, but they always had their own way of doing things including never using where other states having roads lead to another road using that other one as a control city, NJ would leave the control city blank and sign Route X TO Route Y side by side.
Well I can't say whether or not that still is a good idea, but I digress.

famartin

Quote from: PHLBOS on June 25, 2019, 05:30:46 PM
Quote from: odditude on June 25, 2019, 05:13:54 PM
Courtesy of Zeffy on the NJ thread:

Quote from: Zeffy on June 25, 2019, 04:57:27 PM
Sorry for the garbage dash-cam photos, but I saw these lying around heading into PA on the Scudders Falls Bridge. They've actually made a fair amount of work in the past couple of months.


*Facepalm* on that BGS legend below the PAY TOLL 2 MILES sign. 

IMHO, it would be better to either have similar signage to what the NYS Thruway (I-87/287) has on approaching the Tappan Zee with a 2 MILES (or 2 MILES AHEAD) in the main sign legend or maintain similar to what's shown above but eliminate the additional/redundant I-295 shield and the confusing, alternating direction cardinals so that the panel simply reads:

TOLL 2 MILES              (IMHO, the term PAY implies stopping at a toll plaza)
             SOUTH
295  TO   95
Philadelphia


I must agree, that sign is atrocious.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: famartin on June 25, 2019, 09:25:03 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on June 25, 2019, 05:30:46 PM
Quote from: odditude on June 25, 2019, 05:13:54 PM
Courtesy of Zeffy on the NJ thread:

Quote from: Zeffy on June 25, 2019, 04:57:27 PM
Sorry for the garbage dash-cam photos, but I saw these lying around heading into PA on the Scudders Falls Bridge. They've actually made a fair amount of work in the past couple of months.


*Facepalm* on that BGS legend below the PAY TOLL 2 MILES sign. 

IMHO, it would be better to either have similar signage to what the NYS Thruway (I-87/287) has on approaching the Tappan Zee with a 2 MILES (or 2 MILES AHEAD) in the main sign legend or maintain similar to what's shown above but eliminate the additional/redundant I-295 shield and the confusing, alternating direction cardinals so that the panel simply reads:

TOLL 2 MILES              (IMHO, the term PAY implies stopping at a toll plaza)
             SOUTH
295  TO   95
Philadelphia


I must agree, that sign is atrocious.

Yeah, the pay thing is incorrect.

However, you shouldn't ignore cardinal directions.  Remember...look at it from a driver's point of view who isn't someone that's familiar with roads. They're told to take 295 West to Exit 10. This sign is instrumental in guiding them the correct way.

famartin

There's no need for North 295 to West 295 on that sign. Period. Just sign it as 295 west. This would've made much more sense if NJDOT had just done the sensible thing and changed directions at US 1, where there'd be no need for "to"  anything, but I digress

roadman65

Quote from: famartin on June 25, 2019, 10:16:45 PM
There’s no need for North 295 to West 295 on that sign. Period. Just sign it as 295 west. This would’ve made much more sense if NJDOT had just done the sensible thing and changed directions at US 1, where there’d be no need for “to” anything, but I digress
Yes like when I-410 changes direction at I-35 in San Antonio you just see the new direction on the overhead pullthroughs.  Though, I think in Lansing, MI where I-69 goes from N-S to E-W there might be a change sign that points out the orientation change.

However, just plain 295 might work as well as Virginia does it on I-64 and I-295 where both change directions as well.  Though I-64 east of I-264's east junction is directional less the whole way as so is I-295 west of I-95, still just having a I-295 to South I-95 would work well too.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

famartin

The Capital Beltway/I-270 interchange(s) strategy would make perfect sense at I-295/US 1, if the direction changed there (as it should).


From I-270 southbound



From I-495 westbound



From I-495 northbound

jeffandnicole

Quote from: famartin on June 25, 2019, 10:16:45 PM
There’s no need for North 295 to West 295 on that sign. Period. Just sign it as 295 west. This would’ve made much more sense if NJDOT had just done the sensible thing and changed directions at US 1, where there’d be no need for “to” anything, but I digress

No, you can't sign it as 295 West here because it's NOT 295 West.  If someone has directions to take 295 North to Exit 76, and a motorist sees this sign stating "295 West", they may incorrectly assume they're going the wrong direction or they passed their exit.  This sign has everything everyone wants: What route they're on now, and what routes they'll be approaching.  It's not complicated to read or understand, other than the "Pay" wording.

And as far as resigning it at US 1...yeah, here they wouldn't have to do anything, but other places they would.  So they would be installing a similar sign elsewhere.

famartin

Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 26, 2019, 06:16:06 AM
Quote from: famartin on June 25, 2019, 10:16:45 PM
There's no need for North 295 to West 295 on that sign. Period. Just sign it as 295 west. This would've made much more sense if NJDOT had just done the sensible thing and changed directions at US 1, where there'd be no need for "to"  anything, but I digress

And as far as resigning it at US 1...yeah, here they wouldn't have to do anything, but other places they would.  So they would be installing a similar sign elsewhere.
No, there'd be no need.

famartin

Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 26, 2019, 06:16:06 AM
Quote from: famartin on June 25, 2019, 10:16:45 PM
There's no need for North 295 to West 295 on that sign. Period. Just sign it as 295 west. This would've made much more sense if NJDOT had just done the sensible thing and changed directions at US 1, where there'd be no need for "to"  anything, but I digress

No, you can't sign it as 295 West here because it's NOT 295 West.  If someone has directions to take 295 North to Exit 76, and a motorist sees this sign stating "295 West", they may incorrectly assume they're going the wrong direction or they passed their exit.  This sign has everything everyone wants: What route they're on now, and what routes they'll be approaching.  It's not complicated to read or understand, other than the "Pay" wording.
Unnecessary because most people can figure it out. I don't think this confusion exists on the Baltimore or Capitol beltways, despite none of this silly "to"  signage.
Also, it IS 295 West there, NJDOT just can't admit it.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: famartin on June 26, 2019, 06:29:08 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 26, 2019, 06:16:06 AM
Quote from: famartin on June 25, 2019, 10:16:45 PM
There's no need for North 295 to West 295 on that sign. Period. Just sign it as 295 west. This would've made much more sense if NJDOT had just done the sensible thing and changed directions at US 1, where there'd be no need for "to"  anything, but I digress

No, you can't sign it as 295 West here because it's NOT 295 West.  If someone has directions to take 295 North to Exit 76, and a motorist sees this sign stating "295 West", they may incorrectly assume they're going the wrong direction or they passed their exit.  This sign has everything everyone wants: What route they're on now, and what routes they'll be approaching.  It's not complicated to read or understand, other than the "Pay" wording.
Unnecessary because most people can figure it out.

That is one of the worst decisions an engineer can make - by assuming travelers know where they're at and where they're going.  Why bother with pull-thru signage or reminder signage at all, if most people can figure it out. Why do most interchanges have signage at the 1 mile, 1/2 or 1/4 mile, and at the exit gore?  Why have states started painting route numbers on the roadway?  The fact is most people *can't* figure it out. 

QuoteI don't think this confusion exists on the Baltimore or Capitol beltways, despite none of this silly "to"  signage.

Well, they do have this...which seems to indicate I-495 Exits onto I-495.  Also had 3 control cities, when 2 are permitted. https://goo.gl/maps/DzT1PndEgdcnnoLt9

Then as you approach the area, you have this: https://goo.gl/maps/GrmxJmhERVywMBrz9

Then within the interchange, you have this: https://goo.gl/maps/DvpLwYWFPijj1tNM6

Notice what's missing?  Unlike what the first sign indicated, there's no Exit 57C.  So the point is, don't compare one signing issue to another, very random location somewhere else in the country.  There's always going to be signing issues, and signing practices will differ from one area to another.

QuoteAlso, it IS 295 West there, NJDOT just can't admit it.

Yawn.  The argument was stale 2 years ago. 


PHLBOS

Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 26, 2019, 08:23:37 AM
Jeff, no offense but your posted-examples, have absolutely nothing to do with a route changing cardinal directions along the way (the subject at hand here).  Famaritn's posted example at I-270 is indeed one of the more applicable and IMHO the best way to address I-295's direction-cardinal change at the Scudder Falls Bridge.

A better example IMHO, would be the I-695/795 interchange in Pikesville, MD (outside of Baltimore)
I-795 Southbound approaching I-695

Interestingly, there is no pull-through signage along I-695 northbound approaching I-795 prior to MM 17.5.  The I-695 signage along the mainline is 695 INNER LOOP assembly that has no direction cardinal.  Based on the Oct. 2018 GSVs; there doesn't seem to be any I-695 signage along the north/eastbound mainline until about 3 miles further down around MM 20.5.

In the opposite direction (Outer Loop/I-695 west/southbound), there are no pull-through signs along the I-695 mainline approaching the I-795 interchange as well.  However, first reassurance marker bearing a SOUTH cardinal for I-695 occurs at the merge with the ramp from I-795.

The bottom line here, and back to the I-295 NJ-PA example; while the information on the lower-portion of that 2-mile advance sign is technically correct, such is unnecessary.  As previously stated, a simple yellow-and-black TOLL 2 MILES (AHEAD) sign (one can even add an I-295 shield on the yellow panel as a means of stating that such only applies for thru-295 traffic) is sufficient here.  This is one case where less is more.

The first 295 WEST signage one sees should only be at Exit 76/NJ 29 interchange (both ramps & pull-through signs) and at the AET gantry as shown in the 2nd photo that Zeffy posted.

For the opposite direction, the first 295 SOUTH signage is at Exit 10 in PA (ramp signs only)... although I would included a additional Bordentown control city reference for that I-295 South sign to emphasize that the highway ultimately heads southward.  With PA not using any pull-through signage in this area the first BGS listing I-295 southbound that thru-(NJ-bound) traffic sees is this one just after crossing the bridge.

In this particular case, NJDOT is overcompensating for where it's not needed.  PennDOT, this time around, got it right.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

roadman65

NJ should do what MTO does for QEW and leave off cardinal directions.  The ACE used to do that as well, but now East and West have been making appearances lately there.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

jaip

Would PennDOT or NJDOT be responsible for signs in the jurisdiction of Delaware river joint toll bridge commission?

storm2k

Quote from: jaip on June 26, 2019, 11:53:59 AM
Would PennDOT or NJDOT be responsible for signs in the jurisdiction of Delaware river joint toll bridge commission?

I believe they do their own signage, same as every other crossing authority (DRBA, DRPA, PANYNJ, etc). You can usually tell, because the signage gets wonky. DRPA loves to use Arial in a lot of its signs (at least they did back in the day), so you see a lot of terrible looking signs in their areas. PANYNJ signage varies from crossing to crossing, but isn't usually bad (newer installs are definitely better). It used to be super obvious where they took over by the GWB since they used exit tabs while the NJ Turnpike Authority didn't, but it's a little less obvious now (although their signs are just physically bigger. One of the things I've noticed with NJTA's move to MUTCD-like signage is that they're making their signs a hell of a lot smaller). DRBA makes signage that I actually think looks super good. DRJTBC signage isn't bad for the most part. In this instance, the stretch of highway those signs are going up on is still NJDOT managed.

roadman65

How about I-78 into Exit 3 going EB?  I see the DRTJC has jurisdiction for all the miles in NJ to ?Exit 3.  That may explain why "Newark" is the control city on I-78 E Bound pull through where "New York" is on US 22 E Bound approaching the same interchange.

However, NJDOT did get their mileage sign in on I-78 east of the Delaware River on DRTJ property though.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

jeffandnicole

Quote from: PHLBOS on June 26, 2019, 10:09:12 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 26, 2019, 08:23:37 AM
Jeff, no offense but your posted-examples, have absolutely nothing to do with a route changing cardinal directions along the way (the subject at hand here).  Famaritn's posted example at I-270 is indeed one of the more applicable and IMHO the best way to address I-295's direction-cardinal change at the Scudder Falls Bridge.

You would be correct...IF this was at the bridge.  It's not - there's still 2 interchanges prior to the change in cardinal direction, which I've desperately tried to point out. 

The signage above is at the only is the 270/495 gore points, not 2 miles back with additional interchanges between. Also, the 1st and 3rd pic from his post at 12:05am don't match in context.  Even though both signs refer to the spur, the signage on I-270 directly references the spur; the signage on I-495 North does not reference the spur.
Quote
The bottom line here, and back to the I-295 NJ-PA example; while the information on the lower-portion of that 2-mile advance sign is technically correct, such is unnecessary.  As previously stated, a simple yellow-and-black TOLL 2 MILES (AHEAD) sign (one can even add an I-295 shield on the yellow panel as a means of stating that such only applies for thru-295 traffic) is sufficient here.  This is one case where less is more.

The first 295 WEST signage one sees should only be at Exit 76/NJ 29 interchange (both ramps & pull-through signs) and at the AET gantry as shown in the 2nd photo that Zeffy posted.

I pretty much agree with this.  It's not fully necessary to mention the change at this point.  But it doesn't hurt either, as it's providing motorists advance notification of the change. 

Quote
For the opposite direction, the first 295 SOUTH signage is at Exit 10 in PA (ramp signs only)... although I would included a additional Bordentown control city reference for that I-295 South sign to emphasize that the highway ultimately heads southward.  With PA not using any pull-through signage in this area the first BGS listing I-295 southbound that thru-(NJ-bound) traffic sees is this one just after crossing the bridge.

In this particular case, NJDOT is overcompensating for where it's not needed.  PennDOT, this time around, got it right.

As far as 295 East to 295 South goes, that area is still under construction so we don't know what the mainline signage will ultimately be.  They still have an entire bridge to replace and rebuild, so the final signage won't be known for a few years.

storm2k

Quote from: roadman65 on June 26, 2019, 12:40:09 PM
How about I-78 into Exit 3 going EB?  I see the DRTJC has jurisdiction for all the miles in NJ to ?Exit 3.  That may explain why "Newark" is the control city on I-78 E Bound pull through where "New York" is on US 22 E Bound approaching the same interchange.

However, NJDOT did get their mileage sign in on I-78 east of the Delaware River on DRTJ property though.

NJDOT never seems to be too sure how it wants to sign control cities in either direction on 78. The signage at exit 3 is from '89 when they opened the 78 extension to PA, IIRC. It's that reflective background with button copy that is a late 80s/early 90s NJDOT vintage. Signs at Exit 29 also use Newark, and those date from sometime in the 80s also (some may have been replaced but I believe were in-kind replacements without updated legends). I honestly would have done a dual control city setup with Newark and New York. They sort of do that when it splits into the express and local lanes past Springfield, where the local lanes are signed for Newark, and the express lanes for NYC and the Holland Tunnel.

Incidentally, they've done this now with 22. 22 has almost always used New York for EB control, even if it has always ended in Newark at its present location (first as a circle, then the variously configured interchanges). Except a few years ago, they changed the signs on 287 to show 22's EB control city as Newark. Then they complicated it further since when they built out the reconfigured service road/exit to Chimney Rock Rd, they had the pullthrus show New York as the control city (although this was probably already designed this way). Still, one hand rarely knows what the other is doing when it comes to this sometimes.

akotchi

Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 26, 2019, 12:58:10 PM
Quote
For the opposite direction, the first 295 SOUTH signage is at Exit 10 in PA (ramp signs only)... although I would included a additional Bordentown control city reference for that I-295 South sign to emphasize that the highway ultimately heads southward.  With PA not using any pull-through signage in this area the first BGS listing I-295 southbound that thru-(NJ-bound) traffic sees is this one just after crossing the bridge.

In this particular case, NJDOT is overcompensating for where it's not needed.  PennDOT, this time around, got it right.

As far as 295 East to 295 South goes, that area is still under construction so we don't know what the mainline signage will ultimately be.  They still have an entire bridge to replace and rebuild, so the final signage won't be known for a few years.
There are no I-295 East pull-through signs in Pennsylvania, and this project will not add any.  (Should there be? . . . that is another question.  People have been confused enough about the designations, cardinal directions and discontinuities in this area for many years -- this may not be helping.)  The first pull-through for New Jersey-bound traffic will remain at Exit 76, and it will say South.

As for the North-to-West change, the toll message is really all that is needed on the advance signs, with the EZPass and toll-by-plate messages.  A supplemental panel on I-295 NB between Exits 75 and 76 could herald the cardinal direction change (yellow, instead of green? -- Maryland's "Notice" signs would be good here), with the pull-through at Exit 76 confirming it.  I might have considered the same thing New Jersey-bound. 

This is not a true beltway (more like the northern half of one), so the intuition of cardinal direction changes is likely not as well understood here.  I get questions from neighbors, fellow parishioners and co-workers about this subject frequently.  I usually shrug my shoulders before trying to explain it.
Opinions here attributed to me are mine alone and do not reflect those of my employer or the agencies for which I am contracted to do work.

PHLBOS

Quote from: akotchi on June 26, 2019, 01:28:05 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 26, 2019, 12:58:10 PM
It's worth noting that there's no direction cardinal change signs, advance or otherwise, posted on either side of I-676 (near the Ben Franklin Bridge) in Philly & Camden... and I-676 is not a full beltway.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

roadman65

Quote from: storm2k on June 26, 2019, 01:00:32 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 26, 2019, 12:40:09 PM
How about I-78 into Exit 3 going EB?  I see the DRTJC has jurisdiction for all the miles in NJ to ?Exit 3.  That may explain why "Newark" is the control city on I-78 E Bound pull through where "New York" is on US 22 E Bound approaching the same interchange.

However, NJDOT did get their mileage sign in on I-78 east of the Delaware River on DRTJ property though.

NJDOT never seems to be too sure how it wants to sign control cities in either direction on 78. The signage at exit 3 is from '89 when they opened the 78 extension to PA, IIRC. It's that reflective background with button copy that is a late 80s/early 90s NJDOT vintage. Signs at Exit 29 also use Newark, and those date from sometime in the 80s also (some may have been replaced but I believe were in-kind replacements without updated legends). I honestly would have done a dual control city setup with Newark and New York. They sort of do that when it splits into the express and local lanes past Springfield, where the local lanes are signed for Newark, and the express lanes for NYC and the Holland Tunnel.

Incidentally, they've done this now with 22. 22 has almost always used New York for EB control, even if it has always ended in Newark at its present location (first as a circle, then the variously configured interchanges). Except a few years ago, they changed the signs on 287 to show 22's EB control city as Newark. Then they complicated it further since when they built out the reconfigured service road/exit to Chimney Rock Rd, they had the pullthrus show New York as the control city (although this was probably already designed this way). Still, one hand rarely knows what the other is doing when it comes to this sometimes.
Correct NJDOT at first was not using control cities at all for I-78 except at both NJ 31 and I-287 which were Newark.  NJDOT hardly signed control cities on any interstates despite local roads and other routes had them.

When I-78 opened in 1986 between Watchung and Springfield Newark was added to EB I-78 signs from Route 287, but in the early or mid 90's when I-287 was widened to six lanes it was resigned with New York City (not New York).  Yes each hand does not watch the other as for years US 22 from I-287 was signed New York and Easton while I-78 was signed Newark and Clinton so you had the freeway signed with more local control cities over the US route that was non freeway being signed for more prominent control cities.

The same in Watchung when I-78 was finally opened after years of litigation to get 41 to 48 completed through the Union County Park.  The signs on Diamond Hill Road and CR 527 used Easton for ramp signs yet on NJ 24 and NJ 124 signs used Clinton as control cities both erected at the same time from the same project.

IMO an overhaul is needed to determine which control points should be used.  Allentown should really be used from Newark westward as Easton was only copied over from US 22 as that was proper for that road previously due to it entering PA at that city and it being more populated than Phillipsburg.  Not to mention local non freeways are better to be signed with more local places than far away cities like the freeways are.  Now I-78 does hit Easton but far from its center and the fact Allentown is PA's third largest city, it really should be signed.  And going EB yes both Newark and New York should both be used together.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

roadman65

Quote from: PHLBOS on June 26, 2019, 01:35:57 PM
Quote from: akotchi on June 26, 2019, 01:28:05 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 26, 2019, 12:58:10 PM
It's worth noting that there's no direction cardinal change signs, advance or otherwise, posted on either side of I-676 (near the Ben Franklin Bridge) in Philly & Camden & I-676 is not a full beltway.
That is cause NJ and PA have different ideas of how the same freeway should be signed.   NJ keeps 675 signed in unison with Route 42 being signed north and south is probably why.  However I-287 is the same crossing the NJ- NY state line where New Jersey is signing it N-S and NY signing it E-W.  Oh yes, and no change signs there either.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

PHLBOS

Quote from: kevinb1994 on June 25, 2019, 05:54:37 PMActually, the placement of the "TO"  is more troublesome. Shouldn't it be above the shields?
I meant to respond to this earlier; other states have placed the TO legend to the left of the routes shields as well.

One example in Peabody, MA.  Granted the MA 128 shield has no direction cardinal above it but still.

One example in Exton, PA.  Not too fond of that US 202 shield (something about it just looks off) the original BGS' dating back to when the US 30/Exton Bypass was built looked a lot better IMHO.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

Henry

Quote from: famartin on June 25, 2019, 09:25:03 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on June 25, 2019, 05:30:46 PM
Quote from: odditude on June 25, 2019, 05:13:54 PM
Courtesy of Zeffy on the NJ thread:

Quote from: Zeffy on June 25, 2019, 04:57:27 PM
Sorry for the garbage dash-cam photos, but I saw these lying around heading into PA on the Scudders Falls Bridge. They've actually made a fair amount of work in the past couple of months.


*Facepalm* on that BGS legend below the PAY TOLL 2 MILES sign. 

IMHO, it would be better to either have similar signage to what the NYS Thruway (I-87/287) has on approaching the Tappan Zee with a 2 MILES (or 2 MILES AHEAD) in the main sign legend or maintain similar to what's shown above but eliminate the additional/redundant I-295 shield and the confusing, alternating direction cardinals so that the panel simply reads:

TOLL 2 MILES              (IMHO, the term PAY implies stopping at a toll plaza)
             SOUTH
295  TO   95
Philadelphia


I must agree, that sign is atrocious.
Having two I-295 shields on the same sign is overkill. FWIW, they should've put the direction change point (E-W to N-S, and vice versa) at Exit 67/US 1, where the transition between I-95 and I-295 occurred.
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!



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