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Started by mgk920, September 12, 2012, 02:19:57 PM

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paulthemapguy

GSV has updated so you can see the mostly-finished product of the IL-71 rebuild & widening project in Oswego.

https://goo.gl/maps/2QfTG6azLGk
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Brandon

Quote from: paulthemapguy on December 27, 2016, 11:36:31 AM
GSV has updated so you can see the mostly-finished product of the IL-71 rebuild & widening project in Oswego.

https://goo.gl/maps/2QfTG6azLGk

It's finished now, but IDOT went a little overkill on parts of it.  Washington Street (Plainfield Road) and IL-71 does not need dual left turn lanes in each direction.  Nor do parts of the IL-71 and Orchard Road intersection.  They're not that busy.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

Rick Powell

#352
Quote from: Brandon on December 27, 2016, 12:11:43 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on December 27, 2016, 11:36:31 AM
GSV has updated so you can see the mostly-finished product of the IL-71 rebuild & widening project in Oswego.

https://goo.gl/maps/2QfTG6azLGk

It's finished now, but IDOT went a little overkill on parts of it.  Washington Street (Plainfield Road) and IL-71 does not need dual left turn lanes in each direction.  Nor do parts of the IL-71 and Orchard Road intersection.  They're not that busy.

This project was designed in the mid-2000s when Kendall County was growing by 5000+ people a year and accommodated the projected growth. It may or may not materialize, but at the time, Joliet had a comprehensive plan that had 70,000 people in 36 square miles directly south of Oswego and definitely would have fed into the 71 corridor, as well as the growth from Yorkville, Plainfield and Oswego itself. One of the oft-heard criticisms of road planning in Kendall was that they were constantly trying to play catch-up, and the IL 71 design was meant to capture the projected growth so they wouldn't have to go back to the drawing board 10 or 15 years later.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2004-11-18/news/0411180384_1_kendall-residents-growth-plan-sewage-treatment-plant

P.S. GSV still has orange barrels blocking off 2 of the lanes. Last time I went through the area, all 4 through lanes were open except at the Orchard/Minkler intersection at the west end.

Brandon

Quote from: Rick Powell on December 27, 2016, 04:32:53 PM
Quote from: Brandon on December 27, 2016, 12:11:43 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on December 27, 2016, 11:36:31 AM
GSV has updated so you can see the mostly-finished product of the IL-71 rebuild & widening project in Oswego.

https://goo.gl/maps/2QfTG6azLGk

It's finished now, but IDOT went a little overkill on parts of it.  Washington Street (Plainfield Road) and IL-71 does not need dual left turn lanes in each direction.  Nor do parts of the IL-71 and Orchard Road intersection.  They're not that busy.

This project was designed in the mid-2000s when Kendall County was growing by 5000+ people a year and accommodated the projected growth. It may or may not materialize, but at the time, Joliet had a comprehensive plan that had 70,000 people in 36 square miles directly south of Oswego and definitely would have fed into the 71 corridor, as well as the growth from Yorkville, Plainfield and Oswego itself. One of the oft-heard criticisms of road planning in Kendall was that they were constantly trying to play catch-up, and the IL 71 design was meant to capture the projected growth so they wouldn't have to go back to the drawing board 10 or 15 years later.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2004-11-18/news/0411180384_1_kendall-residents-growth-plan-sewage-treatment-plant

P.S. GSV still has orange barrels blocking off 2 of the lanes. Last time I went through the area, all 4 through lanes were open except at the Orchard/Minkler intersection at the west end.

It's still a bit over kill for the types of roads being turned into from the dual left turn lanes.  Another example, IDOT is finishing up US-30 between I-55 and IL-59.  There are dual left turn lanes at Frontage Road, a road that will never be more than one lane per direction due to many factors, notwithstanding a wetland by Caton Farm Road.  That's an accident waiting to happen.  As are the new dual left turn lanes at Renwick Road, another road that will never be more than one lane per direction due to Plainfield's unwillingness to widen the road (it was presented to them as a possible bypass in the 1990s, and they rejected it - typical Plainfield).
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

inkyatari

Quote from: Brandon on December 27, 2016, 05:27:59 PM

  There are dual left turn lanes at Frontage Road, a road that will never be more than one lane per direction due to many factors, notwithstanding a wetland by Caton Farm Road.  That's an accident waiting to happen. 

I've often wondered about the dual turn lanes on southbound IL 47 at Pine Bluff Road south of Morris.  It's a similar setup.  I've almost gotten into some accidents there by douchenozzles trying to beat others before Pine Bluff road narrows down in a couple hundred feet.
I'm never wrong, just wildly inaccurate.

Brandon

Quote from: inkyatari on December 28, 2016, 09:06:04 AM
Quote from: Brandon on December 27, 2016, 05:27:59 PM

  There are dual left turn lanes at Frontage Road, a road that will never be more than one lane per direction due to many factors, notwithstanding a wetland by Caton Farm Road.  That's an accident waiting to happen. 

I've often wondered about the dual turn lanes on southbound IL 47 at Pine Bluff Road south of Morris.  It's a similar setup.  I've almost gotten into some accidents there by douchenozzles trying to beat others before Pine Bluff road narrows down in a couple hundred feet.

It's a damn stupid setup.  IDOT should be liable for this kind of thoughtlessness, IMHO.  You cannot have two left turn lanes turning into one road lane.  Of course, if IDOT was really smart, they'd adopt the Michigan Left and end this two left turn lane crap.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

inkyatari

Quote from: Brandon on December 28, 2016, 09:09:43 AM
Quote from: inkyatari on December 28, 2016, 09:06:04 AM
Quote from: Brandon on December 27, 2016, 05:27:59 PM

  There are dual left turn lanes at Frontage Road, a road that will never be more than one lane per direction due to many factors, notwithstanding a wetland by Caton Farm Road.  That's an accident waiting to happen. 

I've often wondered about the dual turn lanes on southbound IL 47 at Pine Bluff Road south of Morris.  It's a similar setup.  I've almost gotten into some accidents there by douchenozzles trying to beat others before Pine Bluff road narrows down in a couple hundred feet.

It's a damn stupid setup.  IDOT should be liable for this kind of thoughtlessness, IMHO.  You cannot have two left turn lanes turning into one road lane.  Of course, if IDOT was really smart, they'd adopt the Michigan Left and end this two left turn lane crap.

At least, especially with the new business park at Lorenzo Road and I-55, there is a doubtful potential for Pine Bluff to be widened at some point, but still, the dual turn lanes aren't needed.  A single longer left turn lane, sure.
I'm never wrong, just wildly inaccurate.

hobsini2

Quote from: inkyatari on December 28, 2016, 09:13:41 AM
Quote from: Brandon on December 28, 2016, 09:09:43 AM
Quote from: inkyatari on December 28, 2016, 09:06:04 AM
Quote from: Brandon on December 27, 2016, 05:27:59 PM

  There are dual left turn lanes at Frontage Road, a road that will never be more than one lane per direction due to many factors, notwithstanding a wetland by Caton Farm Road.  That's an accident waiting to happen. 

I've often wondered about the dual turn lanes on southbound IL 47 at Pine Bluff Road south of Morris.  It's a similar setup.  I've almost gotten into some accidents there by douchenozzles trying to beat others before Pine Bluff road narrows down in a couple hundred feet.

It's a damn stupid setup.  IDOT should be liable for this kind of thoughtlessness, IMHO.  You cannot have two left turn lanes turning into one road lane.  Of course, if IDOT was really smart, they'd adopt the Michigan Left and end this two left turn lane crap.

At least, especially with the new business park at Lorenzo Road and I-55, there is a doubtful potential for Pine Bluff to be widened at some point, but still, the dual turn lanes aren't needed.  A single longer left turn lane, sure.
I also wouldn't completely dismiss that Orchard Rd/Minkler Rd gets straightened and becomes a new corridor with a possible extension to I-80 since the Prairie Pkwy is dead. It would be a reasonable alternate to 47. I could see them treating it much like what they are doing with Ridge Rd. Kendall County is still very much a growing area. I would hope they foresee the need for the future.
I knew it. I'm surrounded by assholes. Keep firing, assholes! - Dark Helmet (Spaceballs)

Rick Powell

#358
Quote from: hobsini2 on December 31, 2016, 02:44:21 PM
I also wouldn't completely dismiss that Orchard Rd/Minkler Rd gets straightened and becomes a new corridor with a possible extension to I-80 since the Prairie Pkwy is dead. It would be a reasonable alternate to 47. I could see them treating it much like what they are doing with Ridge Rd. Kendall County is still very much a growing area. I would hope they foresee the need for the future.

The Orchard Road corridor was actually one of the "arterial" highway alternatives in the Prairie Parkway study. With all the add-lanes work that has been done to date by Kendall and Kane counties, it is 2/3rds done now. The Orchard Road Fox River bridge was set up for future additional lanes when it was built, and it has been considered to also re-route the marked US 34 over that bridge after US 34 is widened between Yorkville and Orchard Road (construction is just starting), and then to use the new IL-71 four-lane as marked US 34 into Oswego (the current US 34 between Orchard Rd. and the IL-71 junction at Wolf's Crossing Rd. might be "Business 34" or something). I don't know the current status of that planning, this was 10 years ago when I was still at IDOT.

FWIW, the current US 34 between Orchard and the Kane County line had an IDOT add-lanes study that was put on hold when Orchard Road was built, the county thought that Orchard would relieve the traffic that was using US 34 and eliminate the need for the widening. After Orchard was built, that section of US 34 still sees enough traffic to warrant an expansion, but there is little push for it now.

Grundy County is studying a new 4-lane corridor between the I-80 Brisbin Road interchange and the Kendall County line at Sherrill Road. The thought is that at some point, Kendall County will take this corridor from that point and jog it to Grove Road, where it ties into Plainfield Road just south of IL 71 (where those dual lefts were just built). It's way long range, but would be another major north-south corridor. Ideally, at some time the Grove-Plainfield intersection would be relocated to the south, because it is somewhat close to the Plainfield -IL 71 intersection today; but there are complications including a lot of park land that is owned by the Oswegoland Park District.

hobsini2

Quote from: Rick Powell on December 31, 2016, 05:40:57 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on December 31, 2016, 02:44:21 PM
I also wouldn't completely dismiss that Orchard Rd/Minkler Rd gets straightened and becomes a new corridor with a possible extension to I-80 since the Prairie Pkwy is dead. It would be a reasonable alternate to 47. I could see them treating it much like what they are doing with Ridge Rd. Kendall County is still very much a growing area. I would hope they foresee the need for the future.

The Orchard Road corridor was actually one of the "arterial" highway alternatives in the Prairie Parkway study. With all the add-lanes work that has been done to date by Kendall and Kane counties, it is 2/3rds done now. The Orchard Road Fox River bridge was set up for future additional lanes when it was built, and it has been considered to also re-route the marked US 34 over that bridge after US 34 is widened between Yorkville and Orchard Road (construction is just starting), and then to use the new IL-71 four-lane as marked US 34 into Oswego (the current US 34 between Orchard Rd. and the IL-71 junction at Wolf's Crossing Rd. might be "Business 34" or something). I don't know the current status of that planning, this was 10 years ago when I was still at IDOT.

FWIW, the current US 34 between Orchard and the Kane County line had an IDOT add-lanes study that was put on hold when Orchard Road was built, the county thought that Orchard would relieve the traffic that was using US 34 and eliminate the need for the widening. After Orchard was built, that section of US 34 still sees enough traffic to warrant an expansion, but there is little push for it now.

Grundy County is studying a new 4-lane corridor between the I-80 Brisbin Road interchange and the Kendall County line at Sherrill Road. The thought is that at some point, Kendall County will take this corridor from that point and jog it to Grove Road, where it ties into Plainfield Road just south of IL 71 (where those dual lefts were just built). It's way long range, but would be another major north-south corridor. Ideally, at some time the Grove-Plainfield intersection would be relocated to the south, because it is somewhat close to the Plainfield -IL 71 intersection today; but there are complications including a lot of park land that is owned by the Oswegoland Park District.

GTK Rick. And I agree that the Grove-Plainfield Rd intersection should have been moved. Ideally, I would have moved it to meet Woolley Rd when they realigned Wooley and Plainfield a few years ago. That would have made sense to me.

As far as US 34, I never thought about rerouting it that way but it might as well since 34 thru traffic with common sense would do that. Do the Bus 34 as you suggest. Have IL 31 extended southwest to Orchard Rd, and IL 25 extended south on Madison and east on Washington to meet up with IL 71. But then we are getting a bit into the fantasy realm.
I knew it. I'm surrounded by assholes. Keep firing, assholes! - Dark Helmet (Spaceballs)

ET21

Minor notes on the Cumberland flyover/4th land on the Kennedy:

-Bridge piers are starting to grow by the 190/90 merge.

-Looks like Higgens could see a resurfacing with this project, as multiple sections between East River Road and Harlem are blocked for electrical and pavement cutting. Also the right lane is down from Harlem to Oriole going westbound on that mini-flyover for the 4th lane.
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Clinched:
IL: I-88, I-180, I-190, I-290, I-294, I-355, IL-390
IN: I-80, I-94
SD: I-190
WI: I-90, I-94
MI: I-94, I-196
MN: I-90

dvferyance

Quote from: GeekJedi on August 31, 2016, 09:27:18 PM
(Insert picture of a dead horse being beaten)
It's a valid argument. Roundabouts are not suitable for high speed roads. I am perfectly fine with them on slower speed roads but they are not meant for high speed roads becasue they are just that high speed roads. It's illogical to have to slow way down on a road that was built for speed.

GeekJedi

#362
Quote from: dvferyance on January 25, 2017, 09:18:56 AM
Quote from: GeekJedi on August 31, 2016, 09:27:18 PM
(Insert picture of a dead horse being beaten)
It's a valid argument. Roundabouts are not suitable for high speed roads. I am perfectly fine with them on slower speed roads but they are not meant for high speed roads becasue they are just that high speed roads. It's illogical to have to slow way down on a road that was built for speed.

No, it's not a valid argument. The last time you brought it up, I presented several studies that proved otherwise - roundabouts reduce the amount of injuries and major damage at high-speed intersections. If it's "illogical" to slow way down on a road that's built for speed, we should then also remove any other traffic control devices, not just the one you don't like.
"Wisconsin - The Concurrency State!"

paulthemapguy

Quote from: Brandon on December 27, 2016, 12:11:43 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on December 27, 2016, 11:36:31 AM
GSV has updated so you can see the mostly-finished product of the IL-71 rebuild & widening project in Oswego.

https://goo.gl/maps/2QfTG6azLGk

It's finished now, but IDOT went a little overkill on parts of it.  Washington Street (Plainfield Road) and IL-71 does not need dual left turn lanes in each direction.  Nor do parts of the IL-71 and Orchard Road intersection.  They're not that busy.

I grew up in Oswego.  I would ride my bike as a 10-year-old to the corner store at IL-71 and Washington.  This intersection is very near and dear to my heart.  And you're absolutely right.  WHY are there dual left turn lanes ANYWHERE at this intersection?  They even put them at the western approach to the intersection, and Washington northbound is only one lane in each direction!  A five-lane road devoid of curbed medians would have been enough.  However, user Rick Powell was right--they were trying to account for projected growth...and the projections very much were overzealous, considering the economic downturn in 2007-8 that brought urban sprawl to a screeching halt.

My understanding is that the US34 expansion between Oswego and Yorkville is slated to start very soon if it hasn't begun already.  This is from the construction company that did the IL71 expansion.  This is just hearsay though.

I desperately want another Illinois River bridge between I-55 and Illinois 47.  I'd hazard that the most important north-south corridor between IL47 and IL59 (near Oswego) will connect to wherever that bridge gets put.  That puts Ridge Road, Grove Road/Brisbin Road, and Minkler Road on the table. 
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inkyatari

Quote from: paulthemapguy on January 25, 2017, 12:34:52 PM


I desperately want another Illinois River bridge between I-55 and Illinois 47.  I'd hazard that the most important north-south corridor between IL47 and IL59 (near Oswego) will connect to wherever that bridge gets put.  That puts Ridge Road, Grove Road/Brisbin Road, and Minkler Road on the table.

Brisbin is the only place I can see a bridge cross the river, what with Dresden nuke plant, lock and dam, and all the enviromentally sensitive areas.

The big drawback with Brisbin, is that it wouldn't really connect with anything.  YOu'd either have to build new constructiontoconnect with DuPont road, over to IL 47, or Pine Bluff raod would need to be widended, and both would have some serious challenges to overcome..
I'm never wrong, just wildly inaccurate.

dvferyance

#365
Quote from: GeekJedi on January 25, 2017, 09:50:17 AM
Quote from: dvferyance on January 25, 2017, 09:18:56 AM
Quote from: GeekJedi on August 31, 2016, 09:27:18 PM
(Insert picture of a dead horse being beaten)
It's a valid argument. Roundabouts are not suitable for high speed roads. I am perfectly fine with them on slower speed roads but they are not meant for high speed roads becasue they are just that high speed roads. It's illogical to have to slow way down on a road that was built for speed.

No, it's not a valid argument. The last time you brought it up, I presented several studies that proved otherwise - roundabouts reduce the amount of injuries and major damage at high-speed intersections. If it's "illogical" to slow way down on a road that's built for speed, we should then also remove any other traffic control devices, not just the one you don't like.
Then there is no point to even have high speed roads if I have to keep slowing down all the time to go through a roundabout. Many roundabouts on high speed roads were previously 2 way stops were only the cross traffic had to stop not stoplights were the mainline also had to stop. Of course Wisdot will just say any study will prove roundabouts to be safer becasue they love them so much.  Even Europe which has more roundabouts doesn't build them on roads built for speed.

SEWIGuy

Quote from: dvferyance on January 28, 2017, 10:59:58 PM
Quote from: GeekJedi on January 25, 2017, 09:50:17 AM
Quote from: dvferyance on January 25, 2017, 09:18:56 AM
Quote from: GeekJedi on August 31, 2016, 09:27:18 PM
(Insert picture of a dead horse being beaten)
It's a valid argument. Roundabouts are not suitable for high speed roads. I am perfectly fine with them on slower speed roads but they are not meant for high speed roads becasue they are just that high speed roads. It's illogical to have to slow way down on a road that was built for speed.

No, it's not a valid argument. The last time you brought it up, I presented several studies that proved otherwise - roundabouts reduce the amount of injuries and major damage at high-speed intersections. If it's "illogical" to slow way down on a road that's built for speed, we should then also remove any other traffic control devices, not just the one you don't like.
Then there is no point to even have high speed roads if I have to keep slowing down all the time to go through a roundabout. Many roundabouts on high speed roads were previously 2 way stops were only the cross traffic had to stop not stoplights were the mainline also had to stop. Of course Wisdot will just say any study will prove roundabouts to be safer becasue they love them so much.  Even Europe which has more roundabouts doesn't build them on roads built for speed.


Why do you think WIDOT loves roundabouts to the point that they would grab any study that says they are safer?

And can you point to ANY study that disputes that they are safer? 

GeekJedi

Quote from: dvferyance on January 28, 2017, 10:59:58 PM
Of course Wisdot will just say any study will prove roundabouts to be safer becasue they love them so much.  Even Europe which has more roundabouts doesn't build them on roads built for speed.

The studies that I posted that disproved your "facts" were not produced by WisDOT. These were studies I found simply by searching, and were produced by other DOT's, researchers, and (I believe) a university study or two.

So, I think you can drop that theory now.

Don't forget the first rule of holes: When you find yourself in one, stop digging.
"Wisconsin - The Concurrency State!"

silverback1065

Use a rotary on high speed roads then

paulthemapguy

Quote from: GeekJedi on January 29, 2017, 01:25:13 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on January 28, 2017, 10:59:58 PM
Of course Wisdot will just say any study will prove roundabouts to be safer becasue they love them so much.  Even Europe which has more roundabouts doesn't build them on roads built for speed.

The studies that I posted that disproved your "facts" were not produced by WisDOT. These were studies I found simply by searching, and were produced by other DOT's, researchers, and (I believe) a university study or two.

So, I think you can drop that theory now.

Don't forget the first rule of holes: When you find yourself in one, stop digging.

Except that you didn't even bother to start digging for the studies you claim to exist
Avatar is the last interesting highway I clinched.
My website! http://www.paulacrossamerica.com Now featuring all of Ohio!
My USA Shield Gallery https://flic.kr/s/aHsmHwJRZk
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National collection status: 361/425. Only 64 route markers remain

GeekJedi

Quote from: paulthemapguy on January 30, 2017, 12:08:28 PM
Quote from: GeekJedi on January 29, 2017, 01:25:13 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on January 28, 2017, 10:59:58 PM
Of course Wisdot will just say any study will prove roundabouts to be safer becasue they love them so much.  Even Europe which has more roundabouts doesn't build them on roads built for speed.

The studies that I posted that disproved your "facts" were not produced by WisDOT. These were studies I found simply by searching, and were produced by other DOT's, researchers, and (I believe) a university study or two.

So, I think you can drop that theory now.

Don't forget the first rule of holes: When you find yourself in one, stop digging.

Except that you didn't even bother to start digging for the studies you claim to exist

And you didn't do the most basic of searches. I've posted them here in the forum before.

Thanks for playing.
"Wisconsin - The Concurrency State!"

paulthemapguy

Quote from: GeekJedi on January 30, 2017, 05:10:25 PM
And you didn't do the most basic of searches. I've posted them here in the forum before.

Thanks for playing.

No, kiddo.  That ain't how it works.  You've got game, you bring it to the table.  You want a leg to stand on, you bring it.  I can't stand on your legs for you.  It's your job to back up your arguments, if you aim to be taken seriously at all.

Why do I have to explain this to anyone.  Your argument is "cuz I said so" until you quote something or you post a link.
Avatar is the last interesting highway I clinched.
My website! http://www.paulacrossamerica.com Now featuring all of Ohio!
My USA Shield Gallery https://flic.kr/s/aHsmHwJRZk
TM Clinches https://bit.ly/2UwRs4O

National collection status: 361/425. Only 64 route markers remain

GeekJedi

#372
Quote from: paulthemapguy on January 31, 2017, 02:46:11 PM
Quote from: GeekJedi on January 30, 2017, 05:10:25 PM
And you didn't do the most basic of searches. I've posted them here in the forum before.

Thanks for playing.

No, kiddo.  That ain't how it works.  You've got game, you bring it to the table.  You want a leg to stand on, you bring it.  I can't stand on your legs for you.  It's your job to back up your arguments, if you aim to be taken seriously at all.

Why do I have to explain this to anyone.  Your argument is "cuz I said so" until you quote something or you post a link.

Go look for the posts. I already backed up my argument here, no need to do it again because you're lazy.

There's a "search" button for a reason. Use it, kiddo.
"Wisconsin - The Concurrency State!"

SEWIGuy

Quote from: paulthemapguy on January 31, 2017, 02:46:11 PM
Quote from: GeekJedi on January 30, 2017, 05:10:25 PM
And you didn't do the most basic of searches. I've posted them here in the forum before.

Thanks for playing.

No, kiddo.  That ain't how it works.  You've got game, you bring it to the table.  You want a leg to stand on, you bring it.  I can't stand on your legs for you.  It's your job to back up your arguments, if you aim to be taken seriously at all.

Why do I have to explain this to anyone.  Your argument is "cuz I said so" until you quote something or you post a link.


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Roundabout+safety+studies

Hope this helps.

inkyatari

Change of topic.

6-7 years ago, I-55 was widened to 6 lanes between Weber Rd. and the I&M Canal.  The road is in absolute horrid shape.  No more than one year after the construction ended, the pavement was already deteriorating, and it took two years to fix those patches.  More portions are deteriorating now.  The road almost needs to be rebuilt, IMHO, and of course, there's no money in the state to do so. It sucks driving this section every day.

It should have been widened to 6 lanes all the way down to Ridge Rd., and 55 should have been widened to 6 south of the Des Plaines as part of the Arsenal Road project.

Gotta love this state.
I'm never wrong, just wildly inaccurate.



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