I know next to nothing about roads in Africa. What countries in Africa have good roads?
There's a "South Africa" thread, which has quite a few photos of their roads:
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=2297.0
South Africa almost certainly has one of the best road systems in Africa. Roads are well maintained. Lots of markings, signals are well placed, there are toll roads and a lengthy system of freeways, there's a large national system of route numbers...basically, they seem to be on top of it. At least compared to some place like North Korea. South Africa is part of some group of South African nations which, as it relates to roads, is basically their version of the Vienna Convention. So a lot of the countries in that area have similar signals, markings, and route numbering. And unlike places like India or Egypt, drivers follow markings and signals (although late at night, red light running is common due to grand theft autos).
Quote from: jakeroot on November 23, 2017, 12:13:55 AMSouth Africa is part of some group of South African nations which, as it relates to roads, is basically their version of the Vienna Convention.
It's the Vienna Convention itself, not some other version. https://treaties.un.org/Pages/ViewDetailsIII.aspx?src=TREATY&mtdsg_no=XI-B-19&chapter=11&Temp=mtdsg3&lang=en
Morocco has decent roads, Algeria too (though less good numbering), Mauritius too but that hardly counts as it's a small island. Namibia and Botswana have roads as good as South Africa's, but not the population/density for that to show up on a map.
Egypt has been rapidly developing a network of six to eight lane freeways in the greater Cairo region in recent years, including a 400 kilometer beltway of Cairo. They are rapidly catching up with their neighbors on the Arabian peninsula.
What countries in Africa has the worst roads?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 23, 2017, 09:52:29 PM
What countries in Africa has the worst roads?
Both of the nations named Congo would definitely make the list.
Here is some video of driving in the DRC (Zaïre) in the 90s (NSFW because Africa):
And some more:
In 2010,
this couple (http://forum.expeditionportal.com/threads/50799-Democratic-Republic-of-Congo-Lubumbashi-to-Kinshasa) drove from Lubumbashi to Kinshasa (approximately 1450 miles) in a 4x4 Land Cruiser, and it took them 39 days.
The Democratic Republic of the Congo has 80 million people and 1400 miles of paved roads. Even the most important cities are not linked by paved roads. The extensive river system of the Congo means that most freight moves by boat. But the economic activity is very low in most parts of the country so there is not a great demand for transportation.
Most arid countries tend to have somewhat better roads because they run through easier terrain. The central portion of Africa has almost no functional road system with many 'route nationales' or equivalent being unpaved or only existing on maps but not in reality.
Some African countries have been developing expressways / freeways in recent years. Apart from countries in North Africa, these include Senegal, Ivory Coast, Equatorial Guinea, Ethiopia, Uganda, Kenya and Angola. Even Namibia is building a freeway from Windhoek to Okahandja.
Quote from: kphoger on November 24, 2017, 03:06:55 PM
In 2010, this couple (http://forum.expeditionportal.com/threads/50799-Democratic-Republic-of-Congo-Lubumbashi-to-Kinshasa) drove from Lubumbashi to Kinshasa (approximately 1450 miles) in a 4x4 Land Cruiser, and it took them 39 days.
Now that was an interesting and eye-opening read. And here I thought driving in Mexico and Belize was difficult. :wow:
Quote from: english si on November 23, 2017, 04:09:47 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 23, 2017, 12:13:55 AM
South Africa is part of some group of South African nations which, as it relates to roads, is basically their version of the Vienna Convention.
It's the Vienna Convention itself, not some other version. https://treaties.un.org/Pages/ViewDetailsIII.aspx?src=TREATY&mtdsg_no=XI-B-19&chapter=11&Temp=mtdsg3&lang=en
I may have been thinking of the African Union, but I'm not sure the AU governs traffic lights. I'm guessing it doesn't, since South Africa is clearly a Vienna signatory.
Lesotho, Swaziland, and Botswana have similar traffic lights and markings, hence my curiosty surrounding some sort of convention governing road standards in the south of Africa.
Equatorial Guinea built two freeways on the mainland, through undeveloped jungle. The longest freeway is a ~200 kilometer east-west route from Bata to Mongomo. The second is a circa 85 kilometer route from the new capital city Oyala to Ebebiyin at the Cameroon border. They intersect with a large cloverleaf.
Very little is known about roads in Equatorial Guinea, in the early 2000s there were virtually no paved roads outside the capital city Malabo (which is located on an island 100 miles northwest of the continental part of the country). Equatorial Guinea has large oil reserves and has - on paper - the highest GDP per capita in Africa, but few of that oil money seems to make it down to the general population.
Equatorial Guinea adopted the Spanish signage system into detail:
(https://i.imgur.com/OkNVRR8.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/IcL56gw.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/LKp0zEH.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/fxXRs8v.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/E0zbKtV.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/yCcBmIz.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/cx4GPLb.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/34zb8gt.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Q6JS14e.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/LsTgaLo.jpg)
Quote from: jakeroot on November 25, 2017, 01:32:37 AMLesotho, Swaziland, and Botswana have similar traffic lights and markings, hence my curiosty surrounding some sort of convention governing road standards in the south of Africa.
Those three (and Namibia) were either colonies of (on behalf of the UK), or part of, South Africa until the 1960s (or 1990 in Namibia's case). And since then there has been close economic cooperation among them which might have some governance.
Either that, or, more likely, the smaller countries have complied with the Vienna convention from back in the 60s when they weren't independent, even though they haven't signed the treaty.
Quote from: Brandon on November 24, 2017, 10:00:00 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 24, 2017, 03:06:55 PM
In 2010, this couple (http://forum.expeditionportal.com/threads/50799-Democratic-Republic-of-Congo-Lubumbashi-to-Kinshasa) drove from Lubumbashi to Kinshasa (approximately 1450 miles) in a 4x4 Land Cruiser, and it took them 39 days.
Now that was an interesting and eye-opening read. And here I thought driving in Mexico and Belize was difficult. :wow:
I spent the last few days reading this and it really was a great read. Thanks for sharing this link kphoger!
Quote from: jakeroot on November 23, 2017, 12:13:55 AM
There's a "South Africa" thread, which has quite a few photos of their roads:
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=2297.0
South Africa almost certainly has one of the best road systems in Africa. Roads are well maintained. Lots of markings, signals are well placed, there are toll roads and a lengthy system of freeways, there's a large national system of route numbers...basically, they seem to be on top of it. At least compared to some place like North Korea. South Africa is part of some group of South African nations which, as it relates to roads, is basically their version of the Vienna Convention. So a lot of the countries in that area have similar signals, markings, and route numbering. And unlike places like India or Egypt, drivers follow markings and signals (although late at night, red light running is common due to grand theft autos).
South Africa has a few super four's and Super two's
Quote from: Joe The Dragon on November 28, 2017, 12:08:45 AM
South Africa has a few super four's and Super two's
I know what a Super 2 is, but what the hell is a Super 4? Roads with alternating passing lanes are called 2+1 roads, for what it's worth.
Quote from: kphoger on November 24, 2017, 03:06:55 PM
In 2010, this couple (http://forum.expeditionportal.com/threads/50799-Democratic-Republic-of-Congo-Lubumbashi-to-Kinshasa) drove from Lubumbashi to Kinshasa (approximately 1450 miles) in a 4x4 Land Cruiser, and it took them 39 days.
1450 miles over 39 days averages out to 1.55 miles per hour. Yikes. :wow:
Quote from: jakeroot on November 28, 2017, 01:15:18 AM
Quote from: Joe The Dragon on November 28, 2017, 12:08:45 AM
South Africa has a few super four's and Super two's
I know what a Super 2 is, but what the hell is a Super 4? Roads with alternating passing lanes are called 2+1 roads, for what it's worth.
like a super 2 but with at least 2 each way.
this seems being rebuild to get rid of the super 4 part https://www.google.com/maps/@-25.8390913,29.7202473,277m/data=!3m1!1e3
https://www.google.com/maps/@-29.2801439,31.3947261,3a,60y,37.43h,87.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOBDml_nIghpSuJFC33WKcg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Quote from: jakeroot on November 28, 2017, 01:15:18 AM
Quote from: Joe The Dragon on November 28, 2017, 12:08:45 AM
South Africa has a few super four's and Super two's
I know what a Super 2 is, but what the hell is a Super 4? Roads with alternating passing lanes are called 2+1 roads, for what it's worth.
In
common parlance the circles of the world where such a term exists, a Super 4 is a high-quality divided highway with decent shoulders and minimal cross traffic. However, in roadgeekdom...
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 23, 2016, 10:58:39 PM
A logical four-lane extension of the Super Two as defined by roadgeeks would be a freeway with two lanes in both the up and down direction, but no median.
Quote from: 7/8 on November 27, 2017, 09:36:29 PM
Quote from: Brandon on November 24, 2017, 10:00:00 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 24, 2017, 03:06:55 PM
In 2010, this couple (http://forum.expeditionportal.com/threads/50799-Democratic-Republic-of-Congo-Lubumbashi-to-Kinshasa) drove from Lubumbashi to Kinshasa (approximately 1450 miles) in a 4x4 Land Cruiser, and it took them 39 days.
Now that was an interesting and eye-opening read. And here I thought driving in Mexico and Belize was difficult. :wow:
I spent the last few days reading this and it really was a great read. Thanks for sharing this link kphoger!
One of my favorite entries from the blog, showing how far removed we are from what life is really like in central Africa:
QuoteWe came across a truck that was parked in the middle of the track. Luckily the surrounding area was pretty open, so we could pass it.
Us: "Bonjour, ca va?" - "Hi, how are you?"
- Them: "Ca va un peu bien " - "I am doing a little bit ok" -> typical Congelese answer this!
Us: "Votre vehicle est en panne?" - "Did you truck broke down?"
- Them: "Oui, mais ils vient avec des nouveaux pièces" - "Yes, but they are coming with spare parts"
So we chat a bit and we ask what their problem exactly was. They left Ilebo for Kananga with a load of building materials for a rich guy in Kananga. Their engine had completely seized. Their cargo was transferred onto another truck and they had taken the engine out and transported the engine to Kinshasa to get it rebuild. In the meantime the truck 'crew' stayed onsite to safeguard the truck. But they were very happy as they just received news that the necessary parts for the engine were now ordered in Germany, so the parts would come arrive in Kinshasa in a few weeks time!
A fascinating story, and they told it as if the was the most normal thing in the world. Fair enough. We said our goodbyes and asked them one more final question. How long had they been here?
"Un peu plus qu'un an maintenant" - "Just over a year"
Quote from: Joe The Dragon on November 28, 2017, 01:22:54 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 28, 2017, 01:15:18 AM
Quote from: Joe The Dragon on November 28, 2017, 12:08:45 AM
South Africa has a few super four's and Super two's
I know what a Super 2 is, but what the hell is a Super 4? Roads with alternating passing lanes are called 2+1 roads, for what it's worth.
like a super 2 but with at least 2 each way.
Quote from: kphoger on November 28, 2017, 01:55:28 PM
In common parlance the circles of the world where such a term exists, a Super 4 is a high-quality divided highway with decent shoulders and minimal cross traffic. However, in roadgeekdom...
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 23, 2016, 10:58:39 PM
A logical four-lane extension of the Super Two as defined by roadgeeks would be a freeway with two lanes in both the up and down direction, but no median.
Thanks guys. I don't think I've ever seen one of these in person. Doesn't surprise me that ZA would use these, though. I think they were pretty hard-up for a few years thanks to apartheid.
Quote from: jakeroot on November 28, 2017, 05:34:22 PM
Quote from: Joe The Dragon on November 28, 2017, 01:22:54 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 28, 2017, 01:15:18 AM
Quote from: Joe The Dragon on November 28, 2017, 12:08:45 AM
South Africa has a few super four's and Super two's
I know what a Super 2 is, but what the hell is a Super 4? Roads with alternating passing lanes are called 2+1 roads, for what it's worth.
like a super 2 but with at least 2 each way.
Quote from: kphoger on November 28, 2017, 01:55:28 PM
In common parlance the circles of the world where such a term exists, a Super 4 is a high-quality divided highway with decent shoulders and minimal cross traffic. However, in roadgeekdom...
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 23, 2016, 10:58:39 PM
A logical four-lane extension of the Super Two as defined by roadgeeks would be a freeway with two lanes in both the up and down direction, but no median.
Thanks guys. I don't think I've ever seen one of these in person. Doesn't surprise me that ZA would use these, though. I think they were pretty hard-up for a few years thanks to apartheid.
What does apartheid have to do with these roads?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 28, 2017, 06:07:17 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 28, 2017, 05:34:22 PM
Quote from: Joe The Dragon on November 28, 2017, 01:22:54 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 28, 2017, 01:15:18 AM
Quote from: Joe The Dragon on November 28, 2017, 12:08:45 AM
South Africa has a few super four's and Super two's
I know what a Super 2 is, but what the hell is a Super 4? Roads with alternating passing lanes are called 2+1 roads, for what it's worth.
like a super 2 but with at least 2 each way.
Quote from: kphoger on November 28, 2017, 01:55:28 PM
In common parlance the circles of the world where such a term exists, a Super 4 is a high-quality divided highway with decent shoulders and minimal cross traffic. However, in roadgeekdom...
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 23, 2016, 10:58:39 PM
A logical four-lane extension of the Super Two as defined by roadgeeks would be a freeway with two lanes in both the up and down direction, but no median.
Thanks guys. I don't think I've ever seen one of these in person. Doesn't surprise me that ZA would use these, though. I think they were pretty hard-up for a few years thanks to apartheid.
What does apartheid have to do with these roads?
Imports and boycotts. For more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid
Quote from: kphoger on November 24, 2017, 03:06:55 PM
In 2010, this couple (http://forum.expeditionportal.com/threads/50799-Democratic-Republic-of-Congo-Lubumbashi-to-Kinshasa) drove from Lubumbashi to Kinshasa (approximately 1450 miles) in a 4x4 Land Cruiser, and it took them 39 days.
What an amazing read. Thanks for posting that!
Quote from: Brandon on November 28, 2017, 08:57:21 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 28, 2017, 06:07:17 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 28, 2017, 05:34:22 PM
Quote from: Joe The Dragon on November 28, 2017, 01:22:54 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 28, 2017, 01:15:18 AM
Quote from: Joe The Dragon on November 28, 2017, 12:08:45 AM
South Africa has a few super four's and Super two's
I know what a Super 2 is, but what the hell is a Super 4? Roads with alternating passing lanes are called 2+1 roads, for what it's worth.
like a super 2 but with at least 2 each way.
Quote from: kphoger on November 28, 2017, 01:55:28 PM
In common parlance the circles of the world where such a term exists, a Super 4 is a high-quality divided highway with decent shoulders and minimal cross traffic. However, in roadgeekdom...
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 23, 2016, 10:58:39 PM
A logical four-lane extension of the Super Two as defined by roadgeeks would be a freeway with two lanes in both the up and down direction, but no median.
Thanks guys. I don't think I've ever seen one of these in person. Doesn't surprise me that ZA would use these, though. I think they were pretty hard-up for a few years thanks to apartheid.
What does apartheid have to do with these roads?
Imports and boycotts. For more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid
Because of this, South Africa was basely an island until the 90s. Crazy that a country could have something like Jim Crow for so long.
Quote from: inkyatari on December 05, 2017, 04:48:56 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 24, 2017, 03:06:55 PM
In 2010, this couple (http://forum.expeditionportal.com/threads/50799-Democratic-Republic-of-Congo-Lubumbashi-to-Kinshasa) drove from Lubumbashi to Kinshasa (approximately 1450 miles) in a 4x4 Land Cruiser, and it took them 39 days.
What an amazing read. Thanks for posting that!
I do want to correct myself. They did the drive in 2008, but didn't write the report until 2010.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on December 05, 2017, 06:54:44 PM
Because of [apartheid/UN sanctions], South Africa was basely an island until the 90s. Crazy that a country could have something like Jim Crow for so long.
Unlike the US, where the black/colored population is the minority, South Africa is, by far, majority black/colored. The ruling party under Apartheid (the National Party) was worried about loosening laws on voting because the black/colored South Africans heavily favored the ANC, who were not allowed on the ballot. The moment laws were loosened, the ANC would take power, the current politicians would be out of a job, and they would no longer have a say in how the country was run. As far as I can tell, the National Party didn't really trust the black/colored South Africans to run the country, for fear that they would run them (white South Africans/Afrikaners) out of the country. Based on the corruption evident in today's ANC, their fears may have been slightly justified, even if they didn't run them out of the country (although anti-white sentiment is very evident both now and since Mandela took power).
Although the country was arguably an island until the 90s, it was economically better off than it is now.
Quote from: jakeroot on December 05, 2017, 10:40:58 PMAlthough the country was arguably an island until the 90s, it was economically better off than it is now.
Indeed, and South Africa will remain a
de facto one-party state for the foreseeable future. Mandela did a lot of good at trying to heal the country and prioritised that over economy, etc. And Mandela's legacy means that anyone who doesn't support the ANC is often hounded for being anti-Mandela/pro-apartheid/whatever smear they can get to stick.
Zuma is more Mugabe (and very friendly towards the former dictator and his aims, even if he disagrees with the excesses like lack of democracy) than Mandela though - hard left, often hostile to white people due to the colour of their skin, corrupt.
QuoteAs far as I can tell, the National Party didn't really trust the black/colored South Africans to run the country, for fear that they would run them (white South Africans/Afrikaners) out of the country.
They just had to look north at Zimbabwe for those fears to be rational (also 'colored' is a specific term in South Africa and the smallish colored population got some of the issues black people got during apartheid, and some of the issues white people have had since - mostly as they aren't one nor the other, and don't have the clout of white wealth or black population and so are relatively powerless).
Though, unlike Zimbabwe, when mobs went around farms demanding whites leave and killing them if they didn't, the mobs didn't have Government backing.
And the actual emigration of white South Africans more resembled (past tense as the white population has stablised now) American-style white flight: crime rates are way too high, the country is too violent now, etc being the reasons why they have left. Also, affirmative action pushed away the less well-off white people as they found it easier to get jobs in other countries (which means the wealth disparity being whites and blacks is still huge, as the whites that are around are the rich ones who could afford to stay)
^^
I used to think that the US was a racial mess ... until I read about South Africa!
I had read that a significant number of Afrikaners left South Africa in the 90s for places like Australia and New Zealand, but I also read that many of them are returning. While Zuma is certainly a piece of work, at least some of the cities have their own governments that keep them in good shape (Cape Town with the DA, for example).
For as much of a mess as the country may seem to be, at least they have good roads! (and public transportation)
Quote from: jakeroot on December 05, 2017, 10:40:58 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on December 05, 2017, 06:54:44 PM
Because of [apartheid/UN sanctions], South Africa was basely an island until the 90s. Crazy that a country could have something like Jim Crow for so long.
Unlike the US, where the black/colored population is the minority, South Africa is, by far, majority black/colored. The ruling party under Apartheid (the National Party) was worried about loosening laws on voting because the black/colored South Africans heavily favored the ANC, who were not allowed on the ballot. The moment laws were loosened, the ANC would take power, the current politicians would be out of a job, and they would no longer have a say in how the country was run. As far as I can tell, the National Party didn't really trust the black/colored South Africans to run the country, for fear that they would run them (white South Africans/Afrikaners) out of the country. Based on the corruption evident in today's ANC, their fears may have been slightly justified, even if they didn't run them out of the country (although anti-white sentiment is very evident both now and since Mandela took power).
Although the country was arguably an island until the 90s, it was economically better off than it is now.
So it was a dictatorship?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on December 06, 2017, 06:06:07 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 05, 2017, 10:40:58 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on December 05, 2017, 06:54:44 PM
Because of [apartheid/UN sanctions], South Africa was basely an island until the 90s. Crazy that a country could have something like Jim Crow for so long.
Unlike the US, where the black/colored population is the minority, South Africa is, by far, majority black/colored. The ruling party under Apartheid (the National Party) was worried about loosening laws on voting because the black/colored South Africans heavily favored the ANC, who were not allowed on the ballot. The moment laws were loosened, the ANC would take power, the current politicians would be out of a job, and they would no longer have a say in how the country was run. As far as I can tell, the National Party didn't really trust the black/colored South Africans to run the country, for fear that they would run them (white South Africans/Afrikaners) out of the country. Based on the corruption evident in today's ANC, their fears may have been slightly justified, even if they didn't run them out of the country (although anti-white sentiment is very evident both now and since Mandela took power).
Although the country was arguably an island until the 90s, it was economically better off than it is now.
So it was a dictatorship?
Depends. If you were anything but white, then yes, it effectively was. I think the best term might be oligarchy.
Quote from: Brandon on December 06, 2017, 06:20:22 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on December 06, 2017, 06:06:07 PM
So [South Africa] was a dictatorship?
Depends. If you were anything but white, then yes, it effectively was. I think the best term might be oligarchy.
Definitely classic case of oligarchy. Not quite a dictatorship, though. The NP never held all the assembly seats, and South Africa's PM was chosen by the party (classic parliamentary democracy). It was just that the rest of the country couldn't participate in the voting process.
QuoteAlthough the country was arguably an island until the 90s, it was economically better off than it is now.
South Africa has had a pretty steady growth rate since the end of Apartheid. There are fewer civil service jobs for whites as blacks are now eligible for those jobs. There is a growing middle class, including a black middle class. All those nice new roads exist because SA is doing well economically, especially compared to much of Africa.
There are still significant problems with poverty and crime. It's much like India in that while the country is doing well and the middle class is growing, that wealth has not reached most of the most disadvantaged. At least now that wealth isn't just limited to one self-selected group of people.
Quote from: english si on November 27, 2017, 06:54:18 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 25, 2017, 01:32:37 AMLesotho, Swaziland, and Botswana have similar traffic lights and markings, hence my curiosty surrounding some sort of convention governing road standards in the south of Africa.
Those three (and Namibia) were either colonies of (on behalf of the UK), or part of, South Africa until the 1960s (or 1990 in Namibia's case). And since then there has been close economic cooperation among them which might have some governance.
Either that, or, more likely, the smaller countries have complied with the Vienna convention from back in the 60s when they weren't independent, even though they haven't signed the treaty.
South Africa and a number of its neighbors are members of the Southern African Development Community (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_African_Development_Community). There is a SADC traffic signing manual that functions as a regional
MUTCD equivalent, though the extent to which it is followed in the poorer countries varies, and even South Africa has (or used to have) a significant overhang of old signing from previous systems, such as a pre-Worboys-ish system that was used before the 1960's and US/Australian-style signing (with FHWA alphabet series) that was used from the 1970's to the 1990's. Current direction signing is very German-influenced and uses the DIN typefaces.
The current South African traffic signing manual runs to about 4000 pages spread across four volumes. I have found versions of it on the NDOT (http://www.transport.gov.za/web/department-of-transport/roads) and SANRAL (http://www.nra.co.za/live/content.php?&Category_ID=148) websites. For the convenience of volume-by-volume download, I'd go for the latter; NDOT has chopped it into pieces of a few dozen pages each. (If the SANRAL link doesn't work--they seem to insist on putting a session ID in the URL--just go to the main page and follow bread crumb trail Service Provider Zone --> Manuals, Policies, Technical Specifications.)
IMV, South Africa's manual is too long and too complex. As long as there is a reasonably strong and self-renewing community of practitioners able to apply it correctly, this is tolerable, but I believe it is also reflective of a tendency in South African administrative culture generally that feeds illegality by making it too difficult to follow the rules.