US-41 Interstate Conversion

[SEWIGuy]

Correct, a 3di doesn't make a lot of sense because US-41 is by far the more heavily traveled route.  If you live in the western Milwaukee suburbs and points west (including Madison), you are taking US-41 up to Green Bay and not driving through the city to I-43.

[hbelkins]

If I-99 gets extended, perhaps. As it stands, I-99 is 86 miles and I-476 is 132 miles. The US 41 section in Wisconsin is 142 miles. It (or I-43) could conceivably be extended north at some point in the future.

I-99 will eventually go all the way to Corning, NY, and really should take over I-390 and be extended all the way to Rochester.

[Stratuscaster]

Correct, a 3di doesn't make a lot of sense because US-41 is by far the more heavily traveled route.  If you live in the western Milwaukee suburbs and points west (including Madison), you are taking US-41 up to Green Bay and not driving through the city to I-43.

Pretty much the same thing with Chicagoland and I-294. Those in the western suburbs aren't going to drive into Chicago to get on I-94. I'd venture to guess - but admittedly do not know for fact - that I-294 carries more traffic than I-94 between the WI state line and O'Hare - if not all the way from the I-80/94/294 junction.

[kphoger]

3di versus 2di shouldn't depend on traffic counts, appeal to businesses, or what have you, but rather on the route's history and function in the overall scheme.  Is it a branch (/spur/loop) off another highway?  Then give it a 3-digit number.  Is it a whole corridor in its own right?  Then give it a 2-digit number.  If that question is hard to answer, then I would lean toward its being a corridor in its own right.

[JREwing78]

3di versus 2di shouldn't depend on traffic counts, appeal to businesses, or what have you, but rather on the route's history and function in the overall scheme.  Is it a branch (/spur/loop) off another highway?  Then give it a 3-digit number.  Is it a whole corridor in its own right?  Then give it a 2-digit number.  If that question is hard to answer, then I would lean toward its being a corridor in its own right.

Given those standards, US-41 in Wisconsin certainly qualifies for a 2-di.

[hobsini2]

HB, ok maybe i didnt qualify my statement enough. In both instances you mentioned of a 3di being a parent of another 3di, it was an odd number coming off the parent. Nowhere is there an even off a parent (don't start with that I-238 crap). This corridor does not justify I-243 or I-894 as some have proposed. Besides the pop of Appleton and the Fox Valley, Oshkosh, and Fond du Lac is bigger than the current I-43 corridor. By that account, the more important corridor is US 41 and not I-43.

And that still doesn't address the issue of the length of the 41 corridor (120 mi) that I mentioned earlier.

[TheStranger]

Nowhere is there an even off a parent (don't start with that I-238 crap).

I-135 (the former I-35W) in Kansas is the parent for I-235, and unsigned I-444 in Tulsa has I-244 as its parent route.

[hobsini2]

Man i am not thinking at all today. I forgot about Tulsa but that is also as you say an unsigned route that is not longer than 5 miles.  You're talking about a short bypass of a bypass not something that will be 120 miles long.
And don't forget 441 is 10 miles.

I disagree though with the I-135 and 235 situation in Wichita. While technically 235 does start off 135, The sign off 35 do not say TO I-235. I have always considered the real start of 235 to be at this sign.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Wichita,+KS&aq=0&oq=Wichita+KS&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=33.626896,49.833984&vpsrc=6&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Wichita,+Sedgwick,+Kansas&ll=37.596076,-97.324104&spn=0.01656,0.024333&t=m&z=15&cbll=37.596287,-97.324209&panoid=APtc_Wm1115-PVl8o-orOA&cbp=12,13.17,,0,-13.97&ei=v1bGT9XrPIWSNYOgyfMO&pw=2

[Alps]

Just because you want to be disagreeable doesn't make you right.

[Alps]

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/highway-41-interstate-naming-could-boost-property-values-state-says-b85jub1-155835395.html

Another article today. Nothing really new, but just something interesting that will put to bed a few of the thoughts on here:

The Highway 41 designation still would be used for the Stadium Freeway, on Appleton and Lisbon avenues on Milwaukee's northwest side, and north of Green Bay, transportation officials said.

For that reason, national guidelines would not allow the new interstate to be designated Interstate 41, Rabe said. The route number would be chosen by the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials and the Federal Highway Administration, she said.

[SEWIGuy]

Continuing the US-41 designation on the city streets of Milwaukee is just so damn annoying.  Seriously, just extend WI-175 along its route to the Stadium interchange and be done with it...or even have it take over WI-341 to end at WI-59 at National Avenue.

[triplemultiplex]

Continuing the US-41 designation on the city streets of Milwaukee is just so damn annoying.  Seriously, just extend WI-175 along its route to the Stadium interchange and be done with it...or even have it take over WI-341 to end at WI-59 at National Avenue.

This is one of the things I'll likely bring up at tonight's PIM in Wauwatosa.  (I'll be leaving within the hour.)   So look for that report later today maybe.

[SSOWorld]

They should truncate US 41 - gonna follow a highway most of the way anyway! 

j/k

[triplemultiplex]

Well I'm back from the PIM in Wauwatosa.  I had some good conversations with WisDOT people.  Lots of stuff to cover, so I'll just start rattling it off.

First of all, no surprise that WisDOT is apparently not getting much cooperation with the folks south of the border, so this seriously jeopardizes the extension of one of the Chicagoland interstates.  Apparently, some folks are zeroing in on I-55 because that's the only one that Illinois is even remotely considering going along with.  And even then, they are not very enthusiastic about it.  It seems unlikely that WisDOT will have the cooperation of their flatlander counterparts to submit simultaneous applications to AASHTO this fall.

There was one display with the following possible numbers on it:
41   (starts @ Mitchell Interchange)
47   (starts @ Mitchell Interchange)
594 (starts @ Zoo Interchange)
643 (starts @ Hale Interchange)

But it was mentioned that these were not the only ones under serious consideration; hence the buzz about 55.  I think Mike mentioned this from an earlier PIM, but 57 and 65 are almost certainly out.  It's going to be 55 or one of those ^^ I mentioned.

WisDOT is really high on getting a 2di for this corridor due in no small part to the 3di possibilities.  But mostly because of the perceived importance of a 2di.

I can confirm that WisDOT will likely move US 41 on to an all-freeway alignment in Milwaukee along with the new interstate.  They like the idea of matching US 41 and the new interstate throughout the length of the corridor.

I was told they are not considering dropping I-894 in favor of the new interstate at this time.  So 894 may become a useless duplex or we might even have another triplemultiplex (who, me?) in Wisconsin between the Hale and Mitchell interchanges.

The WisDOT people I spoke to said the number most people in the general public want at these meetings is 41.  I think they can see the grid and how nicely 41 fits between 39 and 43.  Plus, it's already 41.

Basically, every proposed number violates AASHTO numbering convention in some way, so WisDOT is looking for the one they could most easily talk them into.  And to that end, it was mentioned to me that WisDOT is interested in talking to folks from North Carolina about how they've been able to make AASHTO their bitch in recent decades (I'm paraphrasing, of course.)  Especially with that I-74/US 74 thing.

Despite Wisconsin's long standing non-duplication of numbers whether they be state, US or Interstate (prior to WI-39/I-39), nobody from WisDOT seemed overly concerned about duplicating any state highway number as the new interstate even though there is a WI 47, 55 and 57 in this part of Wisconsin.  So if they get I-55, they have no plans to renumber WI 55.

[SEWIGuy]

Thank you very much for the update.  I am guessing that it is going to end up being I-41.

[froggie]

Nowhere is there an even off a parent (don't start with that I-238 crap).

I-695 in DC.

[merrycilantro]

Seriously IDOT? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't they be getting federal money to do the signing? It's not like we're asking them to build a new freeway, much less upgrade an existing one. All we want is signage. I would think that would create a few jobs too...but I'm not going to talk politics on a road blog. And why would they be so Anti-57/65? Now one more question would be, does this noncooperation on IDOT's part take into account that someone (I can't remember if it's AASHTO or FHWA) is supposed to mediate or work with IDOT to get the 55 extension? I could kick myself for not going to Fondy's PIM meeting...IDOT just needs to get their heads out of their asses and get the ball rolling to sign the road. How childish.

Don't get me wrong, I'm shaking my head at WisDOT too. Look at a map of North Carolina. The whole 73/74 corridor looks messed up and cluttered an non-cohesive. As I've stated before, the grid system in this nation (East especially) is already effed up, what difference would it make?

As for Milwaukee's realignment, it'd be easy enough just to extend either WIS 341 from Miller Park Way north onto the alignment for current US 41, or WIS 175 south along Appleton Ave. It's never going to get built to what it was originally planned to be anyway. They could also be creative and make a WIS highway with the new interstate's number (provided it's not 41 or a 3di)...but I'd assume they'd do the 341 extension.

Really would like to know where 47 mysteriously appeared from...worst comes to worst they could always do what they have in the Twin Cities, and go I-43W and I-43E...not sure that would work out well though, as this would go on for 120 some miles, and they've done away with most if not all the other E/W N/S routes.

Time will tell...we shall soon see who can back down first. But, as the song goes, "da Bears still suck". And where are the Bears? Chicago. nuff said.

[Revive 755]

Really would like to know where 47 mysteriously appeared from...worst comes to worst they could always do what they have in the Twin Cities, and go I-43W and I-43E...not sure that would work out well though, as this would go on for 120 some miles, and they've done away with most if not all the other E/W N/S routes.

The option of I-47 probably came about since it is the next readily usable number that is not too badly out of place, is not already in use somewhere, and has no conflicting US routes.  But since WisDOT wants to take lessons from NCDOT, maybe they should try for a northern I-45.

[InterstateNG]

How would a 100+ mile multiplex benefit Illinois in any way?  A third interstate on the Kennedy?  Great idea!  What's that?  Put it on the Tri-State?  Then everyone bitches about how it's on a toll road.

I'd be more understanding if the new facility was anywhere near the Illinois border.  But it doesn't, so I don't understand the desire to extend one of three designations that terminate south of the Loop, or in the case of 65, two states away.

[SEWIGuy]

How would a 100+ mile multiplex benefit Illinois in any way?  A third interstate on the Kennedy?  Great idea!  What's that?  Put it on the Tri-State?  Then everyone bitches about how it's on a toll road.

I'd be more understanding if the new facility was anywhere near the Illinois border.  But it doesn't, so I don't understand the desire to extend one of three designations that terminate south of the Loop, or in the case of 65, two states away.

Simply extending I-57 would only require signage...it would require nothing else and would not increase traffic one bit.

The system is a national system and shouldn't be "held hostage" because bordering states don't want to participate.  That being said, I don't have a problem with an intrastate interstate.

[mgk920]

This discussion is sounding more and more like we're 'trash talking' the upcoming NFL season.  Right now, I'm just sitting back, eagerly waiting for the Week 1 games to start.



Still, I will be submitting some commentary on those PIMs to WisDOT within the next week or so.

Mike

[InterstateNG]

How would a 100+ mile multiplex benefit Illinois in any way?  A third interstate on the Kennedy?  Great idea!  What's that?  Put it on the Tri-State?  Then everyone bitches about how it's on a toll road.

I'd be more understanding if the new facility was anywhere near the Illinois border.  But it doesn't, so I don't understand the desire to extend one of three designations that terminate south of the Loop, or in the case of 65, two states away.

Simply extending I-57 would only require signage...it would require nothing else and would not increase traffic one bit.

The system is a national system and shouldn't be "held hostage" because bordering states don't want to participate.  That being said, I don't have a problem with an intrastate interstate.

It just seems like an unnecessary and lengthy concurrency for a number that is different than what the locals prefer.

[SSOWorld]

How would a 100+ mile multiplex benefit Illinois in any way?  A third interstate on the Kennedy?  Great idea!  What's that?  Put it on the Tri-State?  Then everyone bitches about how it's on a toll road.

I'd be more understanding if the new facility was anywhere near the Illinois border.  But it doesn't, so I don't understand the desire to extend one of three designations that terminate south of the Loop, or in the case of 65, two states away.

Simply extending I-57 would only require signage...it would require nothing else and would not increase traffic one bit.

The system is a national system and shouldn't be "held hostage" because bordering states don't want to participate.  That being said, I don't have a problem with an intrastate interstate.

It just seems like an unnecessary and lengthy concurrency for a number that is different than what the locals prefer.

unnecessary and lengthy concurrencies are something Wisconsin doesn't give a shit about.

[merrycilantro]

How would a 100+ mile multiplex benefit Illinois in any way?  A third interstate on the Kennedy?  Great idea!  What's that?  Put it on the Tri-State?  Then everyone bitches about how it's on a toll road.

I'd be more understanding if the new facility was anywhere near the Illinois border.  But it doesn't, so I don't understand the desire to extend one of three designations that terminate south of the Loop, or in the case of 65, two states away.

Simply extending I-57 would only require signage...it would require nothing else and would not increase traffic one bit.

The system is a national system and shouldn't be "held hostage" because bordering states don't want to participate.  That being said, I don't have a problem with an intrastate interstate.

I agree. the Interstate System should not be held hostage, as it were. If Wisconsin wants a connection to the national grid, as opposed to an intrastate that would appeal really to locals, we are as entitled as Illinois. It should not be up to them to decide, and as I've said before, if there's federal funding involved, what's the big effin deal? I don't think what we need is another intrastate. Especially since I-39...well...might as well be, and 43 is. One good solid number - 55 - *yes i've switched teams to the I-55 side, as it appears highly unlikely that 65 will be chosen* coming up from Illinois, will give WI one cohesive number, like I-90, going from north to south. Throw us a frickin bone, IDOT. Yes, I'm well aware I went from football to movie quotes but it seems to work in this instance.

If WI breaks one rule, let it be that the damn number 55 is not in between 39 and 43.

And if Illinois wants to say no and thumb their nose up at us Wisconsinites, fine. Let's sign 94 from IL state line to the Mitchell Interchange, and then shoot 55 up the Bypass, just as they want. What's Illinois gonna do? Eventually, someone has to be like "You know what screw it. Sign the rest of it 55 and shut them cheeseheads up." There are Western routes and Eastern Routes...so we'll be the Northern 55 until IDOT finally rolls over and gives in.

There, problem solved.

[GeekJedi]

US 41 becomes I-43W, and I-43 becomes I-43E.

Problem solved!!