US-41 Interstate Conversion

[merrycilantro]

Speaking of WI 441, a FB exchange from Monday (2015-04-12):

Michael G Koerner Are there any thoughts of applying to AASHTO for promotion of WI 441 to 'I-441' once its current round of upgrades are complete?
Like · Reply · Yesterday at 12:09am

Wisconsin US 41 Project Hi Michael, Good question! The process of US 41 becoming an Interstate began in 2005 when Congressman Petri got federal legislation enacted to designate US 41 as a future Interstate. This legislation came at the urging of local municipalities and Chambers of Commerce. There has been no similar legislation discussed for WIS 441. But we will keep you posted of any changes in the future. Thank you!
Like · 10 hrs

Mike

That is *exactly* what I was saying earlier. The only reason I-41 exists was due to politicians and business owners. WisDOT didn't really see any need to "promote" US 41. The same situation exists with 441. There's no reason to slap an interstate marker on it just because you can. The local governments and community leaders are going to have to ask for it if the want it to happen - and I just don't see that occurring. There'd be no real benefit to it, since 441 really isn't a "bypass" in the traditional sense. It's not really a bypass route as much as it is an alternate route. Most people wouldn't want to choose 441 as the "through" route to Green Bay.

At first I was going to ask, how is it not a bypass...but then I realized, okay, yeah it is more so an alternate route...which then would leave one in favor (should someone request it) of taking an interstate designation from the eastern/northern Terminus of 441 south and west all the way to intersect the new 45/10 segment. However, like 894 and 41 itself, everyone knows the road as 441 so regardless of what number they'd put on it....okay I can see it going either way.

And based off of the response indicated, it seems like it's only going to get a designation if someone were to pass legislature to do so as Tom Petri had for the whole 41 elevation. It does beg the question though why importance was placed on fixing the interchange around Butte des Morts.

[SSOWorld]

Because missing movement between EB 10 and NB 41

[Big John]

Because missing movement between EB 10 and NB 41

... and NB 41 to WB 10

[GeekJedi]

At first I was going to ask, how is it not a bypass...but then I realized, okay, yeah it is more so an alternate route...which then would leave one in favor (should someone request it) of taking an interstate designation from the eastern/northern Terminus of 441 south and west all the way to intersect the new 45/10 segment. However, like 894 and 41 itself, everyone knows the road as 441 so regardless of what number they'd put on it....okay I can see it going either way.

And based off of the response indicated, it seems like it's only going to get a designation if someone were to pass legislature to do so as Tom Petri had for the whole 41 elevation. It does beg the question though why importance was placed on fixing the interchange around Butte des Morts.

Even then, that routing (while locally/regionally significant) would not be very well served with an interstate number. How many people would use that route to get from the 45/10 segment all the way to I-41 at the northern terminus? Or vice-versa? I think in some ways that would be even more confusing as it's not a "natural" through route. I still think 441 is best served as a state roadway and signed accordingly.

[NE2]

Because missing movement between EB 10 and NB 41

If that was a problem for the designation of I-441, it would have been more of a problem for I-41.

[FightingIrish]

The only way WisDOT would want to apply to make 441 an interstate is if they needed federal dollars for it. At this point, they likely don't.

And states don't have to ram new interstates through Congress in order to get them approved, but it does help to force FHWA's hand.

[Fox 11 News]

so this just was posted:

WI US 41 Project @WisconsinUS41  ·  32s 32 seconds ago

Tomorrow we'll have a new name! We wanted a name that accommodates our #WIS441 and #I41 project updates together. http://ow.ly/i/anFCT

[GeekJedi]

Well, perhaps Hell has frozen over and we'll get an I-441. I'm guessing that's not what that's about though. 

[mgk920]

Because missing movement between EB 10 and NB 41

... and NB 41 to WB 10

Also being overwhelmed with traffic.  The US 10/WI 441 bridge to the east is operating at about 80-90K AADT, with much of that traffic using I-41 on ether side of that interchange.  The weave between the two SB I-41 'left turn' loop ramps is a bugger.

Mike

[merrycilantro]

At first I was going to ask, how is it not a bypass...but then I realized, okay, yeah it is more so an alternate route...which then would leave one in favor (should someone request it) of taking an interstate designation from the eastern/northern Terminus of 441 south and west all the way to intersect the new 45/10 segment. However, like 894 and 41 itself, everyone knows the road as 441 so regardless of what number they'd put on it....okay I can see it going either way.

And based off of the response indicated, it seems like it's only going to get a designation if someone were to pass legislature to do so as Tom Petri had for the whole 41 elevation. It does beg the question though why importance was placed on fixing the interchange around Butte des Morts.

Even then, that routing (while locally/regionally significant) would not be very well served with an interstate number. How many people would use that route to get from the 45/10 segment all the way to I-41 at the northern terminus? Or vice-versa? I think in some ways that would be even more confusing as it's not a "natural" through route. I still think 441 is best served as a state roadway and signed accordingly.

Good Point GeekJedi. If I'm going from Fond du Lac Up North, I'm going to hop on 45 out of Oshkosh and meet up with 10 to Point. Way out of my way to go up to Appleton and then zoom west to Point. I had not considered that. And with the current setup the way it is with that new construction at 41 and 45 in Oshkosh, with the roundabout, and no free-flow traffic, there ain't gonna be no interstate designation for that probably even in my own lifetime.

...I think I missed something regarding the @WisconsinUS41 from Fox 11...

Some of my own food for thought for myself, when I-43 was commissioned from Milwaukee to Beloit (Rock Freeway), it was known as the Wisconsin 15 Freeway for a while, until I-43 just sorta took over...so who knows maybe in some years' time, 894 will drop from usage, 441 (should it perchance get renumbered) as well as 172...could be supplanted by auxiliary interstate routes...

[GeekJedi]

I never say never, but yeah...it doesn't seem like there's much interest (or necessity) to promote 441 to an interstate, except for some hardcore numbering folks. On the other hand, all of this is speculation!

[SSOWorld]

Then lets put in the Fictional board

[merrycilantro]

My apologies.

[GeekJedi]

Then lets put in the Fictional board

I think there's a little difference between speculation regarding the numbering of a very real road and fiction. 

For example, WI-441 renumbering, or WI-29 becoming an interstate. 

[SEWIGuy]

At first I was going to ask, how is it not a bypass...but then I realized, okay, yeah it is more so an alternate route...which then would leave one in favor (should someone request it) of taking an interstate designation from the eastern/northern Terminus of 441 south and west all the way to intersect the new 45/10 segment. However, like 894 and 41 itself, everyone knows the road as 441 so regardless of what number they'd put on it....okay I can see it going either way.

And based off of the response indicated, it seems like it's only going to get a designation if someone were to pass legislature to do so as Tom Petri had for the whole 41 elevation. It does beg the question though why importance was placed on fixing the interchange around Butte des Morts.

Even then, that routing (while locally/regionally significant) would not be very well served with an interstate number. How many people would use that route to get from the 45/10 segment all the way to I-41 at the northern terminus? Or vice-versa? I think in some ways that would be even more confusing as it's not a "natural" through route. I still think 441 is best served as a state roadway and signed accordingly.

Good Point GeekJedi. If I'm going from Fond du Lac Up North, I'm going to hop on 45 out of Oshkosh and meet up with 10 to Point. Way out of my way to go up to Appleton and then zoom west to Point. I had not considered that. And with the current setup the way it is with that new construction at 41 and 45 in Oshkosh, with the roundabout, and no free-flow traffic, there ain't gonna be no interstate designation for that probably even in my own lifetime.

...I think I missed something regarding the @WisconsinUS41 from Fox 11...

Some of my own food for thought for myself, when I-43 was commissioned from Milwaukee to Beloit (Rock Freeway), it was known as the Wisconsin 15 Freeway for a while, until I-43 just sorta took over...so who knows maybe in some years' time, 894 will drop from usage, 441 (should it perchance get renumbered) as well as 172...could be supplanted by auxiliary interstate routes...

Similar to I-39.  At first people still called it "Highway 51," but almost everyone calls it I-39 these days.

[Henry]

It only makes sense to make WI 441 into I-441, because the only thing that needs to change is the shield. But I guess we'll see about it when those upgrades are complete.

[The Ghostbuster]

What's wrong with keeping it state highway 441? Not that I oppose making it an Interstate.

[Fox 11 News]

apparently the twitter handle is now:
@WIS441I41News

[GeekJedi]

What's wrong with keeping it state highway 441? Not that I oppose making it an Interstate.

That's what confuses me about the "it just makes sense" crowd. It really doesn't make sense. WI-441 is not a bypass, and is not a "through route" to anything. The only thing that would remotely qualify it to be an interstate highway is that it connects to I-41 in two places and is an limited-access highway. 3di's are for bypasses or spur routes, 441 is neither. What's the rush to change out the shield?

[JREwing78]

What's wrong with keeping it state highway 441? Not that I oppose making it an Interstate.

That's what confuses me about the "it just makes sense" crowd. It really doesn't make sense. WI-441 is not a bypass, and is not a "through route" to anything. The only thing that would remotely qualify it to be an interstate highway is that it connects to I-41 in two places and is an limited-access highway. 3di's are for bypasses or spur routes, 441 is neither. What's the rush to change out the shield?

I would think "connects to I-41 in two places" and "limited-access highway" is plenty sufficient for the Interstate branding. It works in Lansing, MI (I-496), Saginaw, MI (I-675), and Des Moines (I-235), for instance. Wisconsin clearly had a similar idea designating it Hwy 441 when it was built, as a loop of the Appleton area.

I don't get what makes a spur special and different than the loops described above. If a spur qualifies, so should a loop. And I frankly prefer the main through route to have the two-digit parent routing, as dead-brained through traffic is naturally inclined to follow it.

Take St. Louis, for example - the northern I-270 section connecting the two ends of I-70 is a near-perfect direct route for through traffic. But the extra digit implies it's some kind of spur routing. Had it carried the I-70 designation instead, through traffic would naturally be inclined to take it, instead of clogging downtown St. Louis. Ditto for I-255 v.s. I-55.

Once WisDOT brings Hwy 441 up to standards, why wouldn't they want to designate it as an Interstate? It would more clearly reinforce its relationship with I-41, and communicate that it's a limited-access highway. It seems silly to go to the expense of re-designating I-41 as such without designating Hwy 441 also.

[GeekJedi]

What seems silly is going through the expense of re-designating WI 441 as I-441 because "Why not?". Especially since the only people who pushed for the expense of re-designating US 41 as I-41 in the first place were some politicians and business owners.

[hobsini2]

At first I was going to ask, how is it not a bypass...but then I realized, okay, yeah it is more so an alternate route...which then would leave one in favor (should someone request it) of taking an interstate designation from the eastern/northern Terminus of 441 south and west all the way to intersect the new 45/10 segment. However, like 894 and 41 itself, everyone knows the road as 441 so regardless of what number they'd put on it....okay I can see it going either way.

And based off of the response indicated, it seems like it's only going to get a designation if someone were to pass legislature to do so as Tom Petri had for the whole 41 elevation. It does beg the question though why importance was placed on fixing the interchange around Butte des Morts.

Even then, that routing (while locally/regionally significant) would not be very well served with an interstate number. How many people would use that route to get from the 45/10 segment all the way to I-41 at the northern terminus? Or vice-versa? I think in some ways that would be even more confusing as it's not a "natural" through route. I still think 441 is best served as a state roadway and signed accordingly.

Good Point GeekJedi. If I'm going from Fond du Lac Up North, I'm going to hop on 45 out of Oshkosh and meet up with 10 to Point. Way out of my way to go up to Appleton and then zoom west to Point. I had not considered that. And with the current setup the way it is with that new construction at 41 and 45 in Oshkosh, with the roundabout, and no free-flow traffic, there ain't gonna be no interstate designation for that probably even in my own lifetime.

...I think I missed something regarding the @WisconsinUS41 from Fox 11...

Some of my own food for thought for myself, when I-43 was commissioned from Milwaukee to Beloit (Rock Freeway), it was known as the Wisconsin 15 Freeway for a while, until I-43 just sorta took over...so who knows maybe in some years' time, 894 will drop from usage, 441 (should it perchance get renumbered) as well as 172...could be supplanted by auxiliary interstate routes...

Actually, the NB 41 to NB 45 and SB 45 to SB 45 movements are free flow. Theoretically, those ramps could be enough to consider an Interstate to Interstate junction. But that being said, 45 is not going to be an Interstate anytime soon.

[english si]

That's what confuses me about the "it just makes sense" crowd. It really doesn't make sense. WI-441 is not a bypass, and is not a "through route" to anything.

There's a lot of even 3dis that make no sense for through traffic or a bypass, but instead function as routes via downtown with their 2di on the bypass.

There's more that aren't the through route, but distribute traffic around the urban area while their 2di carries through traffic (a by-pass is about traffic passing the town - if through traffic doesn't take it then it's not a bypass).

In fact its probably less than half even 3dis that would be the through route.

WI441 is a distributor for I-41 around the Fox River Cities, serving places on the south/east side of the river and linking them to I-41 north and south. If it was WI541 from I-41 exit 145 to College Avenue, an unbuilt bit, and WI341 from I-41 exit 134 to Calumet St, you seemingly would have a problem with I-541 spur and I-341 spur that end a mile apart as they would be valid interstate spurs. Instead the spurs meet, making them function a lot better and so they would need to meet your bizarre rules for what is the definition of what is a 3di.

[GeekJedi]

It's not my bizarre rule, but thanks for playin'.

[english si]

It's not my bizarre rule, but thanks for playin'.

No one else holds to your rule that even 3dis must form a bypass. It is your rule (and yours alone) and it is bizarre.

Or can you provide a citation that WI441 would violate rules?