This is a thread about roadways are bridges that have been overbuilt
I will start with this. Most of these overbuilt bridges are built to look nice but serve no funamental purpose in terms of their extra support
Is this seriously neccasary? https://www.google.ca/maps/@42.265,-83.269917,3a,75y,264.42h,102.72t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sAAva0qH__dvqTtRK1G_tUA!2e0
This is certainly unnecasary but not as insane as the last example-https://www.google.ca/maps/@39.098106,-84.514519,3a,44.5y,257.12h,104.94t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sWtFL0DAGgX0CtWeynD8tRQ!2e0
I could swear we had a thread on this somewhere.
For the I-94 example, the arch is structural. Each ~200 ft span was designed for 4 lanes plus full shoulders on both sides. To avoid placing a support in the center, you'd need extremely deep I-beams (requiring the freeway to be raised another 3-4 feet) or have a system that redirects either the compressive or tensile forces. In this case, the arch carries the load, greatly reducing the required depth of the I-beams. Is it aesthetically pleasing? Certainly, but there's probably a good reason why they avoided the 6-7 foot I-beams you'd otherwise need.
I've said this many times on this forum, but I think some state DOT's (specifically Wisconsin) are starting to overbuild freeways. Wisconsin in particular seems to think every single major route needs to be a full blown freeway or a high-quality expressway (that can be upgraded to full freeway status later). Examples include WIS 26 and US 151 and I-43 (between Beloit and Milwaukee). All of those are freeways or high-quality expressways that are scheduled to be upgraded to full freeway standards in the future. Those corridors could have easily been consolidated into one main corridor between Janesville and Fond Du Lac (roughly along the current WIS 26 alignment) and served the purpose of all three of those alignments.
Another example is US 10 west of Steven's Point. WAY too elaborate for the amount of traffic it gets (especially with WIS 29 not too far north).
I could go on, but that's my two cents.
Quote from: cl94 on May 24, 2015, 08:30:13 PM
I could swear we had a thread on this somewhere.
For the I-94 example, the arch is structural. Each ~200 ft span was designed for 4 lanes plus full shoulders on both sides. To avoid placing a support in the center, you'd need extremely deep I-beams (requiring the freeway to be raised another 3-4 feet) or have a system that redirects either the compressive or tensile forces. In this case, the arch carries the load, greatly reducing the required depth of the I-beams. Is it aesthetically pleasing? Certainly, but there's probably a good reason why they avoided the 6-7 foot I-beams you'd otherwise need.
I never thought about that
I think I-11 outside of the Vegas/Phoenix corridor may become a future example of this.
I imagine there are quite a few cases where freeways weren't completed. CT 25 and the Dunn Memorial Bridge come to mind.
Quote from: I-39 on May 24, 2015, 09:01:45 PM
Wisconsin in particular seems to think every single major route needs to be a full blown freeway or a high-quality expressway
Basically a smaller-scale FritzOwl?
Quote from: iBallasticwolf2 on May 24, 2015, 08:14:53 PM
This is a thread about roadways are bridges that have been overbuilt
I will start with this. Most of these overbuilt bridges are built to look nice but serve no funamental purpose in terms of their extra support
Is this seriously neccasary? https://www.google.ca/maps/@42.265,-83.269917,3a,75y,264.42h,102.72t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sAAva0qH__dvqTtRK1G_tUA!2e0
This is certainly unnecasary but not as insane as the last example-https://www.google.ca/maps/@39.098106,-84.514519,3a,44.5y,257.12h,104.94t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sWtFL0DAGgX0CtWeynD8tRQ!2e0
A lot of times, it comes down to cost. Believe it or not, that 'overbuilt' bridge is probably cheaper than the alternative that cl94 provided.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 24, 2015, 10:34:09 PM
Quote from: iBallasticwolf2 on May 24, 2015, 08:14:53 PM
This is a thread about roadways are bridges that have been overbuilt
I will start with this. Most of these overbuilt bridges are built to look nice but serve no funamental purpose in terms of their extra support
Is this seriously neccasary? https://www.google.ca/maps/@42.265,-83.269917,3a,75y,264.42h,102.72t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sAAva0qH__dvqTtRK1G_tUA!2e0
This is certainly unnecasary but not as insane as the last example-https://www.google.ca/maps/@39.098106,-84.514519,3a,44.5y,257.12h,104.94t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sWtFL0DAGgX0CtWeynD8tRQ!2e0
A lot of times, it comes down to cost. Believe it or not, that 'overbuilt' bridge is probably cheaper than the alternative that cl94 provided.
That is possible
Where New York completes stuff, it usually isn't overbuilt, the opposite almost always being true. I can think of a few other examples of highways that were overbuilt, most because something else wasn't built or completed.
*I-490 west of NY 531 was designed to accommodate 6 lanes that it'll never need. Unlike the others, this one was because suburbs developed differently than expected
*LaSalle Expressway near Buffalo
*Robert Moses Parkway north of Niagara Falls. Underutilized even with the diet.
*Lake Ontario State Parkway. Always empty due to it not being completed to Buffalo.
*Sheridan Expressway. Was supposed to bypass the Bruckner Interchange and roughly parallel the 5 to Co-Op City
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 24, 2015, 10:34:09 PM
A lot of times, it comes down to cost. Believe it or not, that 'overbuilt' bridge is probably cheaper than the alternative that cl94 provided.
Yeah. Ohio overbuilds things and/or adds stuff for show (i.e. the cable-stayed bridges in Franklin County) when it isn't needed. This isn't overbuilding. Having an arch also allows them to stage construction, reducing impact on traffic.
Overbuilt for later traffic conditions: Betsy Ross Bridge. Built with 8 lanes, restriped in the late 1990s to 6 lanes with full shoulders on the outer edge, and a jersey barrier. Reason: PA90 was Canned.
US301 Over the Delaware canal. road is mostly a 2 lane road through DE, does not become a major 4 lane road until it is in MD. bridge was built for a freeway that never came.
US50 in IL, along the never used I-64 alignment, Overpasses and underpasses built for a 4 lane interstate, most of the time only the future westbound lanes are in use.
PA 413's Exit for I-95. Was at one time the northern end of I-95 and still remains configured as a freeway end, just with the actual freeway branching off.
From my hometown, the suspension bridge carrying R-132 across a part of the mouth of the canal, just downstream from the hydro dam.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.315718,-73.906358,3a,75y,118.53h,84.65t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s1YrblHEuNeUHdZwS9SZ6ag!2e0
Quote from: cl94I could swear we had a thread on this somewhere.
In some ways. The largest waste of money (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=14650.0) thread has a lot of similarities. We've also had threads on overbuilt (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=8046.0) interchanges (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=10939.0).
I-278 in Linden, NJ over Park Avenue was built with the wide median covered to make it one long underpass underneath instead of two separate bridges for the two carriageways. That is because the super wide median was to be an express lane configuration had I-278 been completed west of US 1 & 9 to connect with its parent in Springfield, NJ.
MD 10 east of Glen Burnie was supposed to be the freeway bypass of MD 2 Ritchie Highway between I-695 and US 50/301. The current segment between the Beltway and MD 100/MD 2 is hilariously overbuilt for its length and location, and is really only useful as a rush hour relief route for both MD 2 and I-97.
This flyover ramp off US-52 in Cincinnati was built to eliminate cross-over traffic but sure seems overbuilt for a ramp to a road that isn't that important https://www.google.ca/maps/@39.083035,-84.420321,3a,75y,123.54h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sZham83oMP9mNgSgYiLOq6Q!2e0
I-10 in western Texas. Interchanges are not needed, and at-grade intersections are enough (which do exist on I-10, but most are still interchanges). Maybe I-20, too.
US 77 to I-69E. Its fine as a 75 mph arterial through Kenedy County (the only US county without a traffic signal) with lightly traveled side roads intersecting. It may not be done completely but it is overbuilt considering its entire reason for being upgraded: so that Canada and Mexico have a complete freeway on paper between them.
Quote from: roadman65 on May 25, 2015, 05:43:45 PM
Kenedy County (the only US county with a traffic signal)
Am I missing something? There are traffic signals in most counties in the United States. If what you said was true, traffic signals would be almost non-existent in the United States.
Quote from: roadman65 on May 25, 2015, 05:43:45 PM
so that Canada and Mexico have a complete freeway on paper between them.
What about I-5?
Quote from: 1 on May 25, 2015, 06:46:51 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on May 25, 2015, 05:43:45 PM
Kenedy County (the only US county with a traffic signal)
Am I missing something? There are traffic signals in most counties in the United States. If what you said was true, traffic signals would be almost non-existent in the United States.
Quote from: roadman65 on May 25, 2015, 05:43:45 PM
so that Canada and Mexico have a complete freeway on paper between them.
What about I-5?
I meant without. Sorry, I do not know why I did that as I was thinking without as I typed it. Let me fix it.
Edit: Fixed.
Quote from: SteveG1988 on May 24, 2015, 11:34:06 PMUS301 Over the Delaware canal. road is mostly a 2 lane road through DE, does not become a major 4 lane road until it is in MD. bridge was built for a freeway that never came.
Maybe at the time it was built, sure. But given how quickly Middletown is growing (and how the US 301 spur road is eventually supposed to tie into the bridge), it's better that they didn't leave as a two lane bridge. Not to mention, should something catastrophic happen to the DE 1 bridge, this is the next best canal crossing.
Since I-95 got built in SC, US 301 is not used much south of Santee. However, it remains a four lane road from I-95 Exit 97 to the Savanah River which under today's traffic counts using that stretch, does not even warrant it.
Just look at all the abandoned Fireworks stands that still line US 301 south of Orangeburg, and it will tell you how much of a drop in traffic occurred since I-95 opened for business.
The Warringah Freeway in North Sydney, Australia
https://goo.gl/m9XECQ (https://goo.gl/m9XECQ)
Quote from: roadman65 on May 25, 2015, 09:12:12 PM
Quote from: 1 on May 25, 2015, 06:46:51 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on May 25, 2015, 05:43:45 PM
Kenedy County (the only US county with a traffic signal)
Am I missing something? There are traffic signals in most counties in the United States. If what you said was true, traffic signals would be almost non-existent in the United States.
I meant without. Sorry, I do not know why I did that as I was thinking without as I typed it. Let me fix it.
Edit: Fixed.
There are plenty of US counties without traffic signals. I can think of several in WV, VA, and PA off the top of my head.
Not sure where roadman got his information from, but as bitmapped noted there are plenty of counties without traffic signals. Vermont has two and Minnesota has at least one (probably more).
Quote from: cl94 on May 24, 2015, 08:30:13 PM
I could swear we had a thread on this somewhere.
Could be thinking of this:
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=14196.msg2026154
Mass. 116 in Hadley/Amherst is excessive anytime UMass isn't moving in or out or having commencement. Football is an afterthought, and rarely played there anymore anyway. The big sleepy road looks like they just needed practice building freeways.
Quote from: froggie on May 26, 2015, 10:01:57 AM
Not sure where roadman got his information from, but as bitmapped noted there are plenty of counties without traffic signals. Vermont has two and Minnesota has at least one (probably more).
You mean a North Eastern State actually has counties with no signals? That is hard to believe considering all the population and the fact there is at least one big intersection in every county I would figure.
Anyway, I was speaking in probability anyway. I have been through Kenedy County and I mention that because of its small population and US 77 being its only through road. Every place I traveled, even in Western Kansas where some counties had only one city in them, had at least one signal within that.
Yes, I should have said probably in my sentence. Anyway, the point being that the taxpayers could be using the US 77 upgrade to interstate for building other much needed road or making improvements in some of the big metro areas. It could still survive as a North American Truck route the way it is, as I do not think development will ever come to Kenedy County.
Quote from: froggie on May 26, 2015, 10:01:57 AM
Not sure where roadman got his information from, but as bitmapped noted there are plenty of counties without traffic signals. Vermont has two and Minnesota has at least one (probably more).
At least two in Kentucky that I know of, both fairly close to me -- Menifee County (Frenchburg) and Elliott County (Sandy Hook), although it should be noted that Sandy Hook had a signal at the intersection of KY 7 and KY 32 in my youth, but it was removed sometime prior to 1980. Kentucky's total was at least three until year before last, when politicians overrode traffic engineers and had a signal installed in Owsley County (Booneville).
Van Buren County TN
AFAIK, Virginia still has 8 counties with no stoplights: Bath, Bland, Charles City, Craig, Fluvanna, Highland, Mathews, Rappahannock
Floyd, Surry, Cumberland, Dickenson, King and Queen, and Nelson have exactly 1
Mike
Quote from: SteveG1988 on May 24, 2015, 11:34:06 PMPA 413's Exit for I-95. Was at one time the northern end of I-95 and still remains configured as a freeway end, just with the actual freeway branching off.
IIRC, that stub to PA 413 was originally planned to be extended northeasterly to the PA Turnpike at the Delaware Valley (US 13) interchange (the Turnpike trumpet ramps would've likely remained as is but the ramp alignments & toll plazas beyond would've been altered/reconfigured and/or relocated).
This
was the original I-95/PA Turnpike connection plan that was scrapped once the planned Somerset Freeway/I-95 in NJ was canned circa 1982; volume-related issues (w/through I-95 movements on/off the Turnpike) and the at-grade intersection w/PA 413 were the likely reasoning.
I think NJ-133 is overbuilt in its current state. It's pretty much a freeway to nowhere (formerly from nowhere to nowhere, but at least it connects to the NJ Turnpike on one end now). Even if traffic volume justifies the freeway, the bottleneck simply moves to whatever exits are used off of it
I don't think I've seen mention of the Birmingham Bridge here in Pittsburgh. A 6-lane beast that only connects some 2-lane roads together.
Quote from: roadman65 on May 26, 2015, 11:09:53 AM
Quote from: froggie on May 26, 2015, 10:01:57 AM
Not sure where roadman got his information from, but as bitmapped noted there are plenty of counties without traffic signals. Vermont has two and Minnesota has at least one (probably more).
You mean a North Eastern State actually has counties with no signals? That is hard to believe considering all the population and the fact there is at least one big intersection in every county I would figure.
Anyway, I was speaking in probability anyway. I have been through Kenedy County and I mention that because of its small population and US 77 being its only through road. Every place I traveled, even in Western Kansas where some counties had only one city in them, had at least one signal within that.
Yes, I should have said probably in my sentence. Anyway, the point being that the taxpayers could be using the US 77 upgrade to interstate for building other much needed road or making improvements in some of the big metro areas. It could still survive as a North American Truck route the way it is, as I do not think development will ever come to Kenedy County.
Hamilton County in New York has no signals. I should probably mention that it's the least-dense US county east of Texas.
US 206 Bypassing Columbus NJ, no need for it to be a small freeway, keeping it as a 4 lane road would have served the same purpose.
Quote from: Mapmikey on May 26, 2015, 12:40:01 PM
AFAIK, Virginia still has 8 counties with no stoplights: Bath, Bland, Charles City, Craig, Fluvanna, Highland, Mathews, Rappahannock
Floyd, Surry, Cumberland, Dickenson, King and Queen, and Nelson have exactly 1
Mike
Where's the one in Cumberland? It's been a few years since I've been through it but I don't remember any traveling north-south through the county.
Charles City had a temporary signal over a bridge replacement on VA 5 a few months ago, but I'm assuming you're not considering temporary signals or flashing beacons.
I-74/465 interchange on the SE of Indy. It was built with the expectation that the area was going to see explosive growth...which has yet to happen. https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7326649,-86.04322,16z
QuoteWhere's the one in Cumberland? It's been a few years since I've been through it but I don't remember any traveling north-south through the county.
The part of Farmville north of the river is in Cumberland County. There's a signal at VA 45/SR 600 there.
Quote from: silverback1065 on May 26, 2015, 09:58:33 PM
I-74/465 interchange on the SE of Indy. It was built with the expectation that the area was going to see explosive growth...which has yet to happen. https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7326649,-86.04322,16z
Thing is...with Interchanges it is better to go big than go small near a city. You never know if you can ever get the approval later on.
Quote from: SteveG1988 on May 27, 2015, 08:02:29 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on May 26, 2015, 09:58:33 PM
I-74/465 interchange on the SE of Indy. It was built with the expectation that the area was going to see explosive growth...which has yet to happen. https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7326649,-86.04322,16z
Thing is...with Interchanges it is better to go big than go small near a city. You never know if you can ever get the approval later on.
I wouldn't say that's overbuilt. WB/SB flyover is necessary because it carries an Interstate designation while the other flyover is smart to have because it's effectively a freeway terminus. If anything, it's overpowered to/from the west.
Quote from: cl94 on May 27, 2015, 08:10:25 PM
Quote from: SteveG1988 on May 27, 2015, 08:02:29 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on May 26, 2015, 09:58:33 PM
I-74/465 interchange on the SE of Indy. It was built with the expectation that the area was going to see explosive growth...which has yet to happen. https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7326649,-86.04322,16z
Thing is...with Interchanges it is better to go big than go small near a city. You never know if you can ever get the approval later on.
I wouldn't say that's overbuilt. WB/SB flyover is necessary because it carries an Interstate designation while the other flyover is smart to have because it's effectively a freeway terminus. If anything, it's overpowered to/from the west.
I don't like how there is only 1 through lane on I-74 in that interchange with the flyovers
Quote from: iBallasticwolf2 on May 27, 2015, 09:07:11 PM
Quote from: cl94 on May 27, 2015, 08:10:25 PM
Quote from: SteveG1988 on May 27, 2015, 08:02:29 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on May 26, 2015, 09:58:33 PM
I-74/465 interchange on the SE of Indy. It was built with the expectation that the area was going to see explosive growth...which has yet to happen. https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7326649,-86.04322,16z
Thing is...with Interchanges it is better to go big than go small near a city. You never know if you can ever get the approval later on.
I wouldn't say that's overbuilt. WB/SB flyover is necessary because it carries an Interstate designation while the other flyover is smart to have because it's effectively a freeway terminus. If anything, it's overpowered to/from the west.
I don't like how there is only 1 through lane on I-74 in that interchange with the flyovers
That is normal on a lot of flyovers that carry the main line of a interstate. I'd rather have that than have the I-55 merge onto the Memphis-Arkansas Bridge or how I-57 is dumped onto I-55 via a traditional cloverleaf.
Quote from: 1 on May 24, 2015, 10:04:35 PM
Quote from: I-39 on May 24, 2015, 09:01:45 PM
Wisconsin in particular seems to think every single major route needs to be a full blown freeway or a high-quality expressway
Basically a smaller-scale FritzOwl?
Pretty much. Look at their Connections 2030 plan if you don't believe me.
I-280 in San Francisco is one of the rare urban freeways that is never congested (except at the end). It's mostly 8 lanes, but probably could be 4 without major issues.
https://goo.gl/maps/uHrzR
Thread bump:
Is this (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.8491493,-82.5418728,800m/data=!3m1!1e3/) flyover strictly necessary?
Quote from: roadman65 on May 25, 2015, 12:44:12 PM
I-278 in Linden, NJ over Park Avenue was built with the wide median covered to make it one long underpass underneath instead of two separate bridges for the two carriageways. That is because the super wide median was to be an express lane configuration had I-278 been completed west of US 1 & 9 to connect with its parent in Springfield, NJ.
I always wondered what the larger plans were for 278.
Quote from: roadman65 on May 26, 2015, 01:34:50 AM
Since I-95 got built in SC, US 301 is not used much south of Santee. However, it remains a four lane road from I-95 Exit 97 to the Savanah River which under today's traffic counts using that stretch, does not even warrant it.
Just look at all the abandoned Fireworks stands that still line US 301 south of Orangeburg, and it will tell you how much of a drop in traffic occurred since I-95 opened for business.
Yup. Definitely an example there. US 52 north of US 17A and definitely north of SC 45 (St. Stephen) up to Kingstree is another one. Four lanes even though it goes from 20K cars a day to 5,000 in maybe 10 miles or so. Very little traffic in that part of South Carolina between Williamsburg County and the Charleston metro.
Quote from: vdeane on May 24, 2015, 09:53:29 PM
I think I-11 outside of the Vegas/Phoenix corridor may become a future example of this.
I imagine there are quite a few cases where freeways weren't completed. CT 25 and the Dunn Memorial Bridge come to mind.
I'm going to merge two of your thoughts here and nominate the most overbuilt freeway known to man: CT 11. A 4 lane, 65 MPH road that ends abruptly with little fanfare in the small towns of Colchester and Salem. Yes, it was going to extend to I-95, but it was cancelled, save for the mile markers, after 45 years of non-action. Honorable mentions to SR 695, and the 2 vestiges of I-84 to Providence: I-384, and the US 6 Willimantic bypass.
Quote from: cl94 on May 24, 2015, 08:30:13 PM
I could swear we had a thread on this somewhere.
For the I-94 example, the arch is structural. Each ~200 ft span was designed for 4 lanes plus full shoulders on both sides. To avoid placing a support in the center, you'd need extremely deep I-beams (requiring the freeway to be raised another 3-4 feet) or have a system that redirects either the compressive or tensile forces. In this case, the arch carries the load, greatly reducing the required depth of the I-beams. Is it aesthetically pleasing? Certainly, but there's probably a good reason why they avoided the 6-7 foot I-beams you'd otherwise need.
This bridge (at the US-24 interchange) was deliberately intended to be a visual spectacle, so it's a bad example for the thread topic. It was built as part of an I-94 reconstruction project in 2005, and intended to be a "gateway" for visitors traveling into Detroit from Metro Airport. The "gateway" idea came about because Ford Field was hosting the Super Bowl in February 2006, which is the reason the connections between the arches were designed to resemble footballs. The previous bridge was in poor condition and needed to be replaced as part of the reconstruction project anyway. The tied arch design of the new bridge cost about $2 million more than a traditional girder bridge would have, and most of the additional cost was covered by private donations.
Also, since they went for the tied arch design, MDOT constructed a single-point interchange which meant there couldn't be a center support.
Quote from: STLmapboy on September 16, 2020, 09:38:00 PM
Thread bump:
Is this (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.8491493,-82.5418728,800m/data=!3m1!1e3/) flyover strictly necessary?
I remember once upon a time HB said something about coal trucks going down the hill, I'll let HB clear that up.
Quote from: I-55 on September 17, 2020, 01:34:28 PM
Quote from: STLmapboy on September 16, 2020, 09:38:00 PM
Thread bump:
Is this (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.8491493,-82.5418728,800m/data=!3m1!1e3/) flyover strictly necessary?
I remember once upon a time HB said something about coal trucks going down the hill, I'll let HB clear that up.
I think you're getting two separate posts by him confused. The two locations are actually about 25 miles apart.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 12, 2011, 01:52:13 PM
Quote from: codyg1985 on October 12, 2011, 01:49:05 PM
This one is close to there in Inez, KY. This is a typical intersection for KY 3 and KY 645 except there is a flyover to stay on KY 3 NB:
http://g.co/maps/wfnqj
I haven't been there since that was built. I never really understood the need for it, but I think it was done to keep traffic staying on KY 3 north from pulling across four lanes of traffic, so I guess it was justified for safety reasons.
Quote from: hbelkins on January 25, 2012, 09:10:14 PM
There are also plans to build a grade-separated interchange at KY 3 near Louisa. (Which, in my view, is a total waste of money. The current signalized intersection is at the bottom of a long downhill grade going north and the exit is being built, supposedly, to keep coal trucks from running the red light and slamming into vehicles that have the green on KY 3. I'd solve that by spending a few thousand dollars to put a mandatory truck stop at the top of the hill, instead of millions for an interchange.)
Quote from: kphoger on September 17, 2020, 02:20:14 PM
Quote from: I-55 on September 17, 2020, 01:34:28 PM
Quote from: STLmapboy on September 16, 2020, 09:38:00 PM
Thread bump:
Is this (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.8491493,-82.5418728,800m/data=!3m1!1e3/) flyover strictly necessary?
I remember once upon a time HB said something about coal trucks going down the hill, I'll let HB clear that up.
I think you're getting two separate posts by him confused. The two locations are actually about 25 miles apart.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 12, 2011, 01:52:13 PM
Quote from: codyg1985 on October 12, 2011, 01:49:05 PM
This one is close to there in Inez, KY. This is a typical intersection for KY 3 and KY 645 except there is a flyover to stay on KY 3 NB:
http://g.co/maps/wfnqj
I haven't been there since that was built. I never really understood the need for it, but I think it was done to keep traffic staying on KY 3 north from pulling across four lanes of traffic, so I guess it was justified for safety reasons.
Quote from: hbelkins on January 25, 2012, 09:10:14 PM
There are also plans to build a grade-separated interchange at KY 3 near Louisa. (Which, in my view, is a total waste of money. The current signalized intersection is at the bottom of a long downhill grade going north and the exit is being built, supposedly, to keep coal trucks from running the red light and slamming into vehicles that have the green on KY 3. I'd solve that by spending a few thousand dollars to put a mandatory truck stop at the top of the hill, instead of millions for an interchange.)
I had the intersection right but the coal truck part wrong. But probably the same thing can be said as there's a downhill leading to the intersection from 3.
Exit 56 for I-78 in Newark (unbuilt freeway, cancelled due to NIMBYs)
I think it's safe to say there won't be any Arkansas specimens on this thread.
Once you get more than 10 or so miles north of Fort Wayne, IN 3 being 4 lanes seems unnecessary.
Similarly, more than a few miles south of Huntington, IN 9 being 4 lanes seems unnecessary.
I'm also amused by IN 520 being 4 lanes.
Quote from: MikieTimT on October 02, 2020, 06:10:48 PM
I think it's safe to say there won't be any Arkansas specimens on this thread.
I-69 will be overbuilt as it is unnecessary.
OH 11 is a full freeway with an AADT with 6k. That may justify a divided 4 lane with at-grade intersections, but I'm questioning why ODOT spent their resources turning this into a full freeway, instead of US 23 between I-270 and US 35 (AADT 20k-30k) and the Columbus-Toledo corridor.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on February 27, 2021, 01:50:08 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on October 02, 2020, 06:10:48 PM
I think it's safe to say there won't be any Arkansas specimens on this thread.
I-69 will be overbuilt as it is unnecessary.
i think it's needed to memphis only. south of memphis it's useless.
Quote from: silverback1065 on February 27, 2021, 05:05:46 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on February 27, 2021, 01:50:08 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on October 02, 2020, 06:10:48 PM
I think it's safe to say there won't be any Arkansas specimens on this thread.
I-69 will be overbuilt as it is unnecessary.
i think it's needed to memphis only. south of memphis it's useless.
The mainline Texas section up to Tenaha is pretty useful. Houston will have a connection on its northeast after its done, and using I-369 from Tenaha to I-30. The branches south of Victoria are their own issue. I think 69E should be mainline 69, 69C removed and 69W to a 3di, but that's fictional.
There were two issues with the KY 3/KY 645 flyover near Inez. One was coal trucks coming down the hill on westbound 645. The other was slow-moving traffic (again, including coal trucks) making the left furn from northbound 3 to northbound 3/westbound 645. There is a very short concurrency of the two routes before KY 3 northbound makes a right turn off the four-lane to head into downtown Inez on its original routing.
Turns out, unbelievably, there is one in Pennsylvania (where very little is overbuilt). A 2.5-mile four-lane divided highway bypassing Milesburg on Alternate US-220 and PA-150. Two lanes on either side, where one is really all that's needed. I imagine that, before I-99 was built, they meant to upgrade existing Route 220 to 2+2?
Link here. (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9440002,-77.7953649,3a,75y,48.23h,85.49t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sInctFfZDjBj8SVUZhT92Hg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DInctFfZDjBj8SVUZhT92Hg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D254.02069%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656)
I-73 in southwestern Greensboro.
Quote from: Ketchup99 on March 01, 2021, 09:48:32 PM
which is really all that's needed.
So it isn't overbuilt?
Quote from: tolbs17 on March 01, 2021, 10:13:25 PM
I-73 in southwestern Greensboro.
8 lane urban freeway, I don't see how it's necessarily overbuilt.
Quote from: kphoger on March 02, 2021, 09:13:46 AM
Quote from: Ketchup99 on March 01, 2021, 09:48:32 PM
which is really all that's needed.
So it isn't overbuilt?
Good catch, thanks. I meant two lanes total is all that's needed - four is overkill.
So many of these in China. Maybe.
Quote from: I-39 on May 24, 2015, 09:01:45 PM
I've said this many times on this forum, but I think some state DOT's (specifically Wisconsin) are starting to overbuild freeways.
Someone finally hired Fritzowl for his dream job
This is 2nd Concession in East Gwillimbury, Ontario. Why they decided to turn this 2-lane road into a 4-lane road with bike paths is a mystery to me, considering that there is absolutely nothing there, and it is also not a heavily-travelled arterial either.
Here's a link to the Google Satellite view: https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.0885197,-79.4658523,2224m/data=!3m1!1e3
Here is a streetview screenshot:
(https://i.imgur.com/900IkSf.png)
Quote from: TheGrassGuy on March 16, 2021, 08:34:47 AM
So many of these in China. Maybe.
Here's an easy one:
All of G7
I-73 in Greensboro used to be that way, but I do believe it can still support only 6 lanes instead of 8. Just my consideration.
Can't think of anything else...
Quote from: tolbs17 on May 08, 2021, 03:38:19 PM
I-73 in Greensboro used to be that way, but I do believe it can still support only 6 lanes instead of 8. Just my consideration.
Can't think of anything else...
If this is in reference to the 8-lane stretch between I-85 and I-40, originally I-40 was also signed over that section with I-73, so the facility, part of the Greensboro Bypass loop, was built to accommodate the peak traffic for the combined routes. Later it was decided to revert I-40 to its original routing, so I-73 now occupies the 8 lanes by itself. It could be restriped for only 6 lanes, but there's no compelling reason for doing so unless NCDOT elects to do that to keep traffic wear & tear off part of the carriageways.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=15588.0
Most recent post in that thread was in March of this year.
Also in that thread:
Quote from: tolbs17 on March 01, 2021, 10:13:25 PM
I-73 in southwestern Greensboro.
MO 364. In some areas, there are 5 lanes in each direction when 3-4 is enough.
Quote from: sparker on May 08, 2021, 03:48:11 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on May 08, 2021, 03:38:19 PM
I-73 in Greensboro used to be that way, but I do believe it can still support only 6 lanes instead of 8. Just my consideration.
Can't think of anything else...
If this is in reference to the 8-lane stretch between I-85 and I-40, originally I-40 was also signed over that section with I-73, so the facility, part of the Greensboro Bypass loop, was built to accommodate the peak traffic for the combined routes. Later it was decided to revert I-40 to its original routing, so I-73 now occupies the 8 lanes by itself. It could be restriped for only 6 lanes, but there's no compelling reason for doing so unless NCDOT elects to do that to keep traffic wear & tear off part of the carriageways.
I don't think it should or needs to be narrowed down. It's fine the way it is.
Quote from: ozarkman417 on May 08, 2021, 03:51:09 PM
MO 364. In some areas, there are 5 lanes in each direction when 3-4 is enough.
I have to disagree somewhat. When bridges on I-70 and I-64 were being rebuilt, those extra lanes made a huge difference. I think they'll need to widen MO 364 from Mid Rivers to I-64 fairly soon. The population growth is quite rapid in western St. Charles County.
iPad Pro
The Dan Ryan Expressway
The Katy Freeway
The Golden State Freeway
The 401 in Toronto
The street to your house
We've had this discussion multiple times.
Any of Fritzowl's interstate plans in the middle of nowhere.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 08, 2021, 07:39:23 PM
Any of Fritzowl's interstate plans in the middle of nowhere.
But they aren't built.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 08, 2021, 07:39:23 PM
Any of Fritzowl's interstate plans in the middle of nowhere.
General highway talk ≠ fictional highways
I-70 in the San Rafael Swell. This can be largely attributed to the corridor missing the mark in not being routed towards Salt Lake City.
US 69 Business in Greenville, TX. Four lanes when 2 will do after the city was bypassed.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on May 08, 2021, 08:18:21 PM
I-70 in the San Rafael Swell. This can be largely attributed to the corridor missing the mark in not being routed towards Salt Lake City.
Pfft. It was two lanes once upon a time and was expanded out of necessity.
Still, all that aside:
MERGE THE THREADEN!
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on May 08, 2021, 05:38:46 PM
The 401 in Toronto
Assuming this is a serious answer, I would have to disagree. It's horribly congested on a good day, especially where the collector and express lanes merge into
one giant mess (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6125039,-79.7288609,3a,75y,228.25h,70.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSAW4Q3u7lvh-FMU8IOYhjQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en).
Quote from: webny99 on May 08, 2021, 09:32:29 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on May 08, 2021, 05:38:46 PM
The 401 in Toronto
Assuming this is a serious answer, I would have to disagree. It's horribly congested on a good day, especially where the collector and express lanes merge into one giant mess (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6125039,-79.7288609,3a,75y,228.25h,70.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSAW4Q3u7lvh-FMU8IOYhjQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en).
It wasn't.
NY 328 SW of Elmira. No need for it the four lanes with a median.
Regarding MA 116, having grown up in the area, it was a great bypass.
Come to think of it, there was a weirdo northeast bypass around Amherst proposed at one point...it used to be marked on the old D.H. Jones maps. My parents probably still have one in their house. I'll check next weekend when I am visiting.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on May 08, 2021, 09:33:36 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 08, 2021, 09:32:29 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on May 08, 2021, 05:38:46 PM
The 401 in Toronto
Assuming this is a serious answer, I would have to disagree. It's horribly congested on a good day, especially where the collector and express lanes merge into one giant mess (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6125039,-79.7288609,3a,75y,228.25h,70.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSAW4Q3u7lvh-FMU8IOYhjQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en).
It wasn't.
Darn. I should have known from the last line, but a few of the others seemed like they might be legitimate.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on May 08, 2021, 09:33:36 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 08, 2021, 09:32:29 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on May 08, 2021, 05:38:46 PM
The 401 in Toronto
Assuming this is a serious answer, I would have to disagree. It's horribly congested on a good day, especially where the collector and express lanes merge into one giant mess (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6125039,-79.7288609,3a,75y,228.25h,70.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSAW4Q3u7lvh-FMU8IOYhjQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en).
It wasn't.
That said, I've been working on a lot of blogs which go into the development of the Golden State Highway (US 99) into a freeway. It is surreal sometimes to see how those 1950s/60s designs were once world class.
Would I-94 be overbuilt if they added one to two lanes in the entire state of Michigan? From the state line to Benton Harbor it's six lanes, it needs another lane at least. You have Grand Rapids and Chicago/Detroit traffic all running together in that area.
Then east of I-196 it goes down to four lanes until US-131 in Kalamazoo where it gets six lanes again until the east side of K-Zoo and then back down to four lanes all the way to US-23 pretty much with I believe the exception of a few six lane stretches but not long stretches. This should be six lanes.
Then it's six lanes pretty much all the way through Metro Detroit with some eight lane stretches but this needs one to two more lanes in each direction. From US-23 to Detroit city limits it should be eight lanes, within the city of Detroit it should be ten lanes, then back down to eight lanes after Cadieux and to six lanes from 23 Mile to Port Huron. MDOT is hard at work on doing nothing about addressing some real problems in this state.
US-23 between Flint and Toledo is almost as bad as I-75 in rural areas like between Troy and Findlay, Ohio.
I'd say a highway like I-94 or US-23 would definitely make sense with 6 lanes throughout. Could it be seen as overbuilt sometimes? Maybe. But it would definitely be built to handle the maximum capacity during peak travel times, and still be free flowing with ample breathing room. I've mentioned it before, but Georgia I-75 and I-95 are prime examples of what all the major interstate highways in this country should look like.
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 09, 2021, 12:22:57 AM
I've mentioned it before, but Georgia I-75 and I-95 are prime examples of what all the major interstate highways in this country should look like.
I used I-71 between Columbus and Cleveland as a good example of a 6 lane rural interstate, though I think the rest of I-71 should get up to that standard too. Cincinnati-Columbus have a short 6 lane section around the US 35 interchange and provisions for it on the new Jeremiah Morrow Bridge. Louisville-Cincinnati is a bit more difficult due to the terrain, but I think traffic levels and truck traffic are high enough for 6 lanes.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 08, 2021, 11:20:13 PM
Would I-94 be overbuilt if they added one to two lanes in the entire state of Michigan?
Not at all, especially with the truck traffic it handles. I would prioritize Kalamazoo -> I-69 and Jackson -> US-23 in Ann Arbor for 6-laning if I was writing the checks, but even the section between Marshall and Jackson is busy.
Quote from: SkyPesos on February 27, 2021, 03:20:58 PM
OH 11 is a full freeway with an AADT with 6k. That may justify a divided 4 lane with at-grade intersections, but I'm questioning why ODOT spent their resources turning this into a full freeway, instead of US 23 between I-270 and US 35 (AADT 20k-30k) and the Columbus-Toledo corridor.
ODOT built this out when Youngstown and Warren were more prominent population centers. Mahoning and Trumbull counties (including Youngstown and Warren) have lost over 100,000 residents since 1970, and Ashtabula County's population levels were basically flat. ODOT's highway planning didn't anticipate the local economy going into a freefall.
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 09, 2021, 12:22:57 AM
I'd say a highway like I-94 or US-23 would definitely make sense with 6 lanes throughout. Could it be seen as overbuilt sometimes? Maybe. But it would definitely be built to handle the maximum capacity during peak travel times, and still be free flowing with ample breathing room. I've mentioned it before, but Georgia I-75 and I-95 are prime examples of what all the major interstate highways in this country should look like.
They added that Flex Lane north of Ann Arbor on US-23 but it's only open during peak travel times, even if it's not a peak travel hour and the highway is congested it'll still be closed. US-23 is a prime example of a freeway that is underbuilt. It does get six lanes briefly in the Ann Arbor area while it's concurrent with M-14.
So some cities have had population declines, Detroit is the one that's probably most notable. Would that mean that freeways there are overbuilt, since it was built for a population that isn't as big anymore?
Quote from: andrepoiy on May 09, 2021, 11:51:23 AM
So some cities have had population declines, Detroit is the one that's probably most notable. Would that mean that freeways there are overbuilt, since it was built for a population that isn't as big anymore?
I think that the freeways are more needed because of the suburbanization in rust belt metro areas, and more people commuting on the freeways. Detroit's metro population grew by 42% (not a lot compared to other areas, but it's still a growth) between 1950 and 2010 even though the city proper dropped.
I-75 in Detroit's northern suburbs have an AADT of 150k in some places on 6 lanes.
Based merely on traffic counts, I-75 north of the Mackinac Bridge is overbuilt, with an AADT in some sections of under 5000 vpd . It receives less traffic than US-2 west of St. Ignace, which is mostly a 2-lane roadway. There are national defense reasons that I-75 continues on to Sault Ste. Marie, but it is among the most lightly-trafficked Interstate highways east of the Mississippi.
Quote from: andrepoiy on May 09, 2021, 11:51:23 AM
So some cities have had population declines, Detroit is the one that's probably most notable. Would that mean that freeways there are overbuilt, since it was built for a population that isn't as big anymore?
Detroit's metro population is still about the same as it's peak population. The city might have lost population but Oakland and Macomb counties are near their peak population. Metro Detroit has about 4 million people which is higher than when Detroit city was at its peak population. The Jeffries Freeway on the west side might feel overbuilt but it handles free flowing traffic fine.
Let's just say that overbuilt is much better than underbuilt.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 09, 2021, 05:03:56 PM
Let's just say that overbuilt is much better than underbuilt.
Yes, sir.
I-295 south of I-64 could be classified as (overbuilt). I-95 was supposed to be routed on that side. Like the Varina-Enon bridge only carries about 40,000 vehicles per day so that's even enough for just 4 lanes.
And for it going through Hopewell, it carries roughly 35,000 vehicles per day! Will not need to be widened for improved for quite a while...
US-301 from Emporia to Jarratt. 4-lane highway...
Around Carson in Virginia too. only 1,000 AADT. overbuilt....
Quote from: tolbs17 on January 13, 2022, 08:39:26 PM
US-301 from Emporia to Jarratt. 4-lane highway...
Around Carson in Virginia too. only 1,000 AADT. overbuilt....
It was a four lane divided highway between Emporia and Templeton before I-95 was built, so when it was widened, it served the major north-south movements.
I-95 was built around 1980 which mostly upgraded the existing US-301 alignment, though used new location between Emporia and Jarratt, and around Carson, where the old 4 lane is retained. US-301 is now a local road, most traffic is on I-95.
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 13, 2022, 09:10:16 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on January 13, 2022, 08:39:26 PM
US-301 from Emporia to Jarratt. 4-lane highway...
Around Carson in Virginia too. only 1,000 AADT. overbuilt....
It was a four lane divided highway between Emporia and Templeton before I-95 was built, so when it was widened, it served the major north-south movements.
I-95 was built around 1980 which mostly upgraded the existing US-301 alignment, though used new location between Emporia and Jarratt, and around Carson, where the old 4 lane is retained. US-301 is now a local road, most traffic is on I-95.
And with that being said the same thing will most likely occur for US-17 around Merry Hill, North Carolina.
Also, wasn't I-95 a four lane highway with at-grade intersections in Lumberton? I feel like it was but I'm not positive.
NC 4 from Gold Rock to Battleboro is also another one that looks overbuilt but nothing will be done I'm sure except for the interchange upgrades at I-95 which is happening now.