Electric cars are here and since most people will have chargers at home, at work, or the parking lots of almost any restaurant or shopping center, we will need far fewer public charging stations than we have gas stations today, so a lot of real estate, much of it located on street corners, will be freed up. And this gives a golden opportunity for road engineers.
(https://i.imgur.com/w3Zxg8h.jpg)
Long ago, New Jersey, of all states, came up with a way to remove left turns from intersections with jughandles. It's basically the same as the loops from a cloverleaf intersection.
(https://i.imgur.com/RiRabQT.png)
And so on intersections like like this one, where gas stations occupy one or two (and sometimes three!) corners, you can easily put in jughandles with all the attendant benefits to safety and traffic flow.
And the convenience stores?
Gas stations are brownfields.
While we'll probably see a contraction in the number of gas stations, I doubt they'll go away that much. Most of them already barely make a profit on gas; the money there is in the convenience store angle. So I imagine we'll just see the awnings and fuel islands go away and the C-store stay there.
Even if there's a 50% contraction in the number of C-stores in the US, I don't know that we'll necessarily see cities buying up ROW to build jughandles. If they wanted to do that, they could do it now. Corner real estate remains valuable even if you take the C-store out of the equation. Notice that two of the corners on your screenshot have something other than a C-store there. I expect that most closed-down gas stations will simply go on the commercial real estate market and be replaced by a drug store or fast-food restaurant.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 24, 2021, 07:50:59 PM
While we'll probably see a contraction in the number of gas stations, I doubt they'll go away that much. Most of them already barely make a profit on gas; the money there is in the convenience store angle. So I imagine we'll just see the awnings and fuel islands go away and the C-store stay there.
Even if there's a 50% contraction in the number of C-stores in the US, I don't know that we'll necessarily see cities buying up ROW to build jughandles. If they wanted to do that, they could do it now. Corner real estate remains valuable even if you take the C-store out of the equation. Notice that two of the corners on your screenshot have something other than a C-store there. I expect that most closed-down gas stations will simply go on the commercial real estate market and be replaced by a drug store or fast-food restaurant.
We sell our gas only 5 cents above cost, basically it is a loss leader. The consumable items are way higher margin and the cheaper gas we sell basically is just a way to draw people in. If I was going to rate my healthiest business through COVID it would be far and away the mini-marts that grab and go consumables. I can't see that type of business format realistically going through much of a decline post gas. There is probably a good way to make some money on EV charging that hasn't been quite figured out yet too.
A very plausible scenario is that gas stations drop the gas pumps and install EV chargers, while keeping the convenience store portion.
We can never have enough coffee shops and drug stores.
This issue will be a few decades in the making, but I don't foresee states incorporating jughandles into their normal playbook.
I wouldn't be surprised, if full charging continues to take a fair amount of time in the future, if other types of food establishments. museums, tourist shops, etc. install chargers in the future, since you have a captive audience who might want to grab a bite while they wait, etc...
As someone that's actively administering a gas station demolition contract at his job...Gas station removals are very involved and very expensive, mainly because of the large potential for gasoline to pollute the surrounding soil and water. On top of general contractor for demolishing the building, we need a special certified gas station demolition contractor certified by the EPA for removing the tanks, a staff member from the state fire marshal's office to supervise the site, and an environmental consultant to survey the site for petroleum contamination. The environmental consultant takes soil samples and water samples around the site, and if any of it is contaminated (usually at least some is), we have to dig it out and dispose of it properly. All the soil, water, and underground tank linings need to be disposed by a certified waste hauler and hauled to an approved dump site. Contrast this with a typical demolition contract, where I usually don't even need to be on site when it takes place because there isn't much to consider. We don't need to build much to specification if the final product is a flatly graded site with nothing on it.
With that said, a future with more vehicles powered without fossil fuels certainly should be on the horizon. It seems that kind of future would imply a smaller number of gas stations, but it will be difficult and costly repurposing those sites currently housing gas stations. Developers would much rather repurpose or develop any other site that doesn't have so much potential for contamination. This doesn't mean that it won't happen; but former gas station sites are typically developers' last choice for development.
Back some 5 years ago here in Central Carolina, former gas station locations (and other similar size parcels) were being converted into triplex shoppes (typically mattress store + bigname cell phone dealer + coffee shop, often Starbucks). The mattress business collapsed before COVID, and since then the expansion of Starbucks came to a halt. There are a few of the gas stations around here that didn't survive this year's price increases, but they just simply pulled out the pumps and are continuing with their secondary businesses (one is a mechanic shop, another is a U-Haul rental; another deals in farm supplies but is still selling gasoline).
Quote from: Dirt Roads on August 25, 2021, 10:15:06 AM
Back some 5 years ago here in Central Carolina, former gas station locations (and other similar size parcels) were being converted into triplex shoppes (typically mattress store + bigname cell phone dealer + coffee shop, often Starbucks). The mattress business collapsed before COVID, and since then the expansion of Starbucks came to a halt. There are a few of the gas stations around here that didn't survive this year's price increases, but they just simply pulled out the pumps and are continuing with their secondary businesses (one is a mechanic shop, another is a U-Haul rental; another deals in farm supplies but is still selling gasoline).
But electric cars require much less maintenance so the need for mechanics will fall.
For a moment, I thought Kernals had become interested in roadside art and restoration of old buildings.
Example from Columbus... (might be behind paywall)
https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/local/2021/08/19/gahanna-coffee-shop-owners-run-art-gallery-out-abandoned-car-wash/5496277001/
I can think of several former gas stations that have been turned into restaurants. For some reason, 30 years ago old gas stations were popular for Chinese restaurants in Charlottesville (don't know if that's still the case). Closer to where I live now, Tempo Restaurant in Alexandria (https://goo.gl/maps/FG7SEhiHfvqmTUST8) is a pretty good French/Northern Italian restaurant located in what used to be a Texaco station.
There was an abandoned gas station near me for a while - since torn down - that I maintain should become a Dunkin'. It's a perfect location - even better than most of the existing Dunkin' locations IMO.
I even contacted Dunkin' Brands about it, but nothing ever became of it (sadly but unsurprisingly).
Former gas stations often have significant subsurface contamination issues from leaking underground storage tanks. While it's true that UST regulations required a change to more modern fiberglass double-walled tanks with interstitial monitoring, legacy issues still occur - and lines can still have leaks. Seldom do you demo a gas station without finding at least some contamination to soil. Occasionally (though not as often as in the past) groundwater contamination is identified too - which is VERY expensive to deal with.
So, any kind of redevelopment involving a former gas station site usually has to be 'worth it' financially, not that this is a concern for the government. But then again, governments don't often want to get involved in cleanups, not voluntarily at least. They'd prefer someone else foot the bill, develop the site and pay taxes on it. While your idea is interesting, it wouldn't seem easy to sell when there are other more profitable uses for such parcels.
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on August 25, 2021, 11:57:14 AM
Former gas stations often have significant subsurface contamination issues from leaking underground storage tanks. While it's true that UST regulations required a change to more modern fiberglass double-walled tanks with interstitial monitoring, legacy issues still occur - and lines can still have leaks. Seldom do you demo a gas station without finding at least some contamination to soil. Occasionally (though not as often as in the past) groundwater contamination is identified too - which is VERY expensive to deal with.
So, any kind of redevelopment involving a former gas station site usually has to be 'worth it' financially, not that this is a concern for the government. But then again, governments don't often want to get involved in cleanups, not voluntarily at least. They'd prefer someone else foot the bill, develop the site and pay taxes on it. While your idea is interesting, it wouldn't seem easy to sell when there are other more profitable uses for such parcels.
This is such a big problem with the older properties. Depending upon the locality, much of the time if you bought the property, you own the potential problem and the remediation. Remediation can be much more expensive than most of us imagine.
Most of them in my area end up as used car lots.
Around here many former gas stations are now payday loan joints.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 25, 2021, 09:06:09 AM
We can never have enough coffee shops and drug stores.
This issue will be a few decades in the making, but I don't foresee states incorporating jughandles into their normal playbook.
Yeah, the thing is, most states would probably rather sell off roadway footprints for real estate rather than the opposite.
Quote from: Ned Weasel on August 26, 2021, 06:10:38 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 25, 2021, 09:06:09 AM
We can never have enough coffee shops and drug stores.
This issue will be a few decades in the making, but I don't foresee states incorporating jughandles into their normal playbook.
Yeah, the thing is, most states would probably rather sell off roadway footprints for real estate rather than the opposite.
What's the opposite of real estate?
Also: A municipality can never have enough mattress stores.
Quote from: Rothman on August 26, 2021, 06:34:10 AM
What's the opposite of real estate?
Also: A municipality can never have enough mattress stores.
What I meant was, the opposite of selling roadway footprints for real estate, which is buying real estate for roadway, which was the OP's idea.
Quote from: allniter89 on August 26, 2021, 02:19:48 AM
Around here many former gas stations are now payday loan joints.
Seems unique to Virginia, but a lot of former gas stations in the Commonwealth are now title loan shops.
This ought to be a Reddit post
From what I've seen locally, ex-gas stations around here have become (a) test-only smog-certificate facilities (b) automotive sound system/car alarm sales/installation facilities (make use of the service bays), or (c) somewhat less common, fruit and vegetable stands (which seems to be a Santa Clara "thing"). I have a former housemate who purchased an old station for purpose (b), but eventually went out of business when cars started featuring higher-end "brand name" sound systems as factory installs (it was the mid-80's). Oh -- just remembered another Santa Clara thing -- drive-through coffee vendors (curiously, both near Kaiser Hospital there).
I've worked in the envirnmental field, both as a technician and now a site manager for almost 30 years now, both in the provate and public sector. While former gas stations are an environmental issue, since the contamination is mostly hydrocarbon-based, they are much easier to remediate than former dry cleaners, and any type of solvent or chemical manufacturing plant. The main issue with former gas stations is making sure surrounding receptors are not impacted. The gasoline by-produts that are of concern are BTEX and MTBE, both of which can be treated with carbon. Contaminants such as PCE and TCE, which are the after effects of dry cleaners are much more difficult to treat, as they don't break down in the manner that VOCs such as benzene and other gasoline by-products do. Former gas stations are much easier to rehabilitate than so many other hazardous waste sites.
Quote from: jas on August 27, 2021, 06:31:27 AM
I've worked in the envirnmental field, both as a technician and now a site manager for almost 30 years now, both in the provate and public sector. While former gas stations are an environmental issue, since the contamination is mostly hydrocarbon-based, they are much easier to remediate than former dry cleaners, and any type of solvent or chemical manufacturing plant. The main issue with former gas stations is making sure surrounding receptors are not impacted. The gasoline by-produts that are of concern are BTEX and MTBE, both of which can be treated with carbon. Contaminants such as PCE and TCE, which are the after effects of dry cleaners are much more difficult to treat, as they don't break down in the manner that VOCs such as benzene and other gasoline by-products do. Former gas stations are much easier to rehabilitate than so many other hazardous waste sites.
You still have to clean them up, though. If I am looking for a location for a business, that added cost would make an old gas station less competitive.
Quote from: Rothman on August 27, 2021, 06:36:59 AM
Quote from: jas on August 27, 2021, 06:31:27 AM
I've worked in the envirnmental field, both as a technician and now a site manager for almost 30 years now, both in the provate and public sector. While former gas stations are an environmental issue, since the contamination is mostly hydrocarbon-based, they are much easier to remediate than former dry cleaners, and any type of solvent or chemical manufacturing plant. The main issue with former gas stations is making sure surrounding receptors are not impacted. The gasoline by-produts that are of concern are BTEX and MTBE, both of which can be treated with carbon. Contaminants such as PCE and TCE, which are the after effects of dry cleaners are much more difficult to treat, as they don't break down in the manner that VOCs such as benzene and other gasoline by-products do. Former gas stations are much easier to rehabilitate than so many other hazardous waste sites.
You still have to clean them up, though. If I am looking for a location for a business, that added cost would make an old gas station less competitive.
Money is the driving issue, but, I've worked on plenty of former gas stations that are now everything from fast food restaurants to banks to updated gas stations. If a former gas station is located in what an owner thinks is a prime location, they consider the remediation just a part of the investment.
Quote from: epzik8 on August 27, 2021, 02:28:15 AM
This ought to be a Reddit post
Assuming Kernals12 on reddit is the same person as on here, he takes a hell of a beating posting similar there as well.
Quote from: SectorZ on August 27, 2021, 08:11:05 AM
Quote from: epzik8 on August 27, 2021, 02:28:15 AM
This ought to be a Reddit post
Assuming Kernals12 on reddit is the same person as on here, he takes a hell of a beating posting similar there as well.
He is, let's just say that fact was well established early on during his tenure here.
Quote from: jas on August 27, 2021, 08:07:04 AM
If a former gas station is located in what an owner thinks is a prime location, they consider the remediation just a part of the investment.
So... I'm guessing a highway jughandle probably wouldn't be in the same category as a taco fusion restaurant, when it comes to profitability.
Quote from: jas on August 27, 2021, 06:31:27 AM
I've worked in the envirnmental field, both as a technician and now a site manager for almost 30 years now, both in the provate and public sector. While former gas stations are an environmental issue, since the contamination is mostly hydrocarbon-based, they are much easier to remediate than former dry cleaners, and any type of solvent or chemical manufacturing plant. The main issue with former gas stations is making sure surrounding receptors are not impacted. The gasoline by-produts that are of concern are BTEX and MTBE, both of which can be treated with carbon. Contaminants such as PCE and TCE, which are the after effects of dry cleaners are much more difficult to treat, as they don't break down in the manner that VOCs such as benzene and other gasoline by-products do. Former gas stations are much easier to rehabilitate than so many other hazardous waste sites.
All true. And yes, chlorinated solvents can require potentially millions of dollars to remediate from groundwater - and that process can take years. These site either end up being brownfields managed by the state or federal environmental agencies or they are in locations where the real estate is valuable enough to make it a worthwhile cost of doing business. However, we're talking specifically about former service station sites here - and these are often in locations where the proposed development may involve another not-so-high profit margin business enterprise. So, it depends upon the site and what you plan to do with it. If contamination is allowed to remain, there will likely be use limitations imposed by the state agency overseeing the case. If it's merely old hydrocarbons sitting there, natural attenuation could be your best friend. But you make a great point about those supposedly "environment friendly" gasoline additives actually being the worst constituents to deal with when there's a release of gasoline to the subsurface.
Quote from: kernals12 on August 24, 2021, 07:37:24 PM
And this gives a golden opportunity for road engineers.
Yes, in retrofitting gas stations into hydrogen refueling stations.
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on September 01, 2021, 02:12:18 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on August 24, 2021, 07:37:24 PM
And this gives a golden opportunity for road engineers.
Yes, in retrofitting gas stations into hydrogen refueling stations.
I don't think road engineers do that.
Best former gas station ever. One of Anthony Bourdain's 13 Places to Eat Before You Die. (https://www.joeskc.com/pages/gas-station-restaurant)
Chris
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on August 27, 2021, 01:47:05 PM
Quote from: jas on August 27, 2021, 06:31:27 AM
I've worked in the envirnmental field, both as a technician and now a site manager for almost 30 years now, both in the provate and public sector. While former gas stations are an environmental issue, since the contamination is mostly hydrocarbon-based, they are much easier to remediate than former dry cleaners, and any type of solvent or chemical manufacturing plant. The main issue with former gas stations is making sure surrounding receptors are not impacted. The gasoline by-produts that are of concern are BTEX and MTBE, both of which can be treated with carbon. Contaminants such as PCE and TCE, which are the after effects of dry cleaners are much more difficult to treat, as they don't break down in the manner that VOCs such as benzene and other gasoline by-products do. Former gas stations are much easier to rehabilitate than so many other hazardous waste sites.
All true. And yes, chlorinated solvents can require potentially millions of dollars to remediate from groundwater - and that process can take years. These site either end up being brownfields managed by the state or federal environmental agencies or they are in locations where the real estate is valuable enough to make it a worthwhile cost of doing business. However, we're talking specifically about former service station sites here - and these are often in locations where the proposed development may involve another not-so-high profit margin business enterprise. So, it depends upon the site and what you plan to do with it. If contamination is allowed to remain, there will likely be use limitations imposed by the state agency overseeing the case. If it's merely old hydrocarbons sitting there, natural attenuation could be your best friend. But you make a great point about those supposedly "environment friendly" gasoline additives actually being the worst constituents to deal with when there's a release of gasoline to the subsurface.
I forgot to mention natural attenuation as a possibility. Good catch. Many times you will see large corporate companies, especially those related to the gasoline industry, take on these sites. In my area, that means the likes of Wawa or QuickChek, which will put up gas station/convenience store combos. Other former gas station sites now house the likes of Starbucks, Dunkin Donuts or banks.
One former St Louis gas station was converted into a gay bar (JJ's at Vandeventer and Market). The old garage with its high ceiling was perfect for the dance floor. The bar recently closed as the owner is retiring and sold the building for a hefty profit as the neighborhood has gentrified.
Yeah no, the electric car will take a long time to really replace the existing fleet. And while you may have a charger at home, you will need more chargers to get anywhere far. The electric car is not yet practical as a road trip vehicle. (that day will come when an electric vehicle holds the Cannonball Title)
And then we get into the REAL crux. As electric cars become more common, and liquid fuel cars less so, what will that do to demand? Shift right, and shift left respectively. Which means electric vehicles become more expensive, and gas gets cheaper.
As has been pointed out, gas stations barely make money on gas. Granted, the viability as a C store likely depends on fuel stops as part of the model, but I suspect many can use charging stations for the same purpose.
As to NJ and the jug handle, NJ roads are some of the worst in the country, none of us want to copy their system. The Jug-handle is not an all bad idea, but because it is not consistently implemented it becomes a nightmare to anyone not familiar with the area as you never know if you need to be in the left or right lane. My guess is it is not going far.
Instead, lets mandate the Texas U turn system on all new freeways nationally, and on all recon projects.
Quote from: kernals12 on August 25, 2021, 10:31:46 AM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on August 25, 2021, 10:15:06 AM
Back some 5 years ago here in Central Carolina, former gas station locations (and other similar size parcels) were being converted into triplex shoppes (typically mattress store + bigname cell phone dealer + coffee shop, often Starbucks). The mattress business collapsed before COVID, and since then the expansion of Starbucks came to a halt. There are a few of the gas stations around here that didn't survive this year's price increases, but they just simply pulled out the pumps and are continuing with their secondary businesses (one is a mechanic shop, another is a U-Haul rental; another deals in farm supplies but is still selling gasoline).
But electric cars require much less maintenance so the need for mechanics will fall.
Eh wait and see. Electric cars are going to require service as well, right now they appear to need less because so many are new and are sold as luxury vehicles. A Mercedes requires little in the first 50K too, but that does not mean their long term prospects are much better. With one exception every part I have had to fix on my car in its life is common to Electric cars as well...
Quote from: HighwayStar on September 15, 2021, 04:01:54 PM
Yeah no, the electric car will take a long time to really replace the existing fleet. And while you may have a charger at home, you will need more chargers to get anywhere far. The electric car is not yet practical as a road trip vehicle. (that day will come when an electric vehicle holds the Cannonball Title)
Most people not on this forum don't drive far from home on a regular enough basis for that to be an overriding concern. The day-to-day for most people is their commute into work, and maybe a few stops at stores and such on the way home or over the weekend. Long road trips are, for most families, limited to seeing the family over the holidays and maybe a summer vacation. For either of those, renting an ICE car is feasible. There is a small minority of people who like to regularly travel place like national parks on the weekend, and an ICE vehicle will continue to make sense for them until infrastructure improves.
My primary work site is a lengthy commute by most people's standards, 20 miles one way, but an electric car could handle that easily without charging mid-day. Then if I want to take a long road trip I could either use my wife's ICE car or rent one.
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 15, 2021, 05:57:07 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on September 15, 2021, 04:01:54 PM
Yeah no, the electric car will take a long time to really replace the existing fleet. And while you may have a charger at home, you will need more chargers to get anywhere far. The electric car is not yet practical as a road trip vehicle. (that day will come when an electric vehicle holds the Cannonball Title)
Most people not on this forum don't drive far from home on a regular enough basis for that to be an overriding concern. The day-to-day for most people is their commute into work, and maybe a few stops at stores and such on the way home or over the weekend. Long road trips are, for most families, limited to seeing the family over the holidays and maybe a summer vacation. For either of those, renting an ICE car is feasible. There is a small minority of people who like to regularly travel place like national parks on the weekend, and an ICE vehicle will continue to make sense for them until infrastructure improves.
My primary work site is a lengthy commute by most people's standards, 20 miles one way, but an electric car could handle that easily without charging mid-day. Then if I want to take a long road trip I could either use my wife's ICE car or rent one.
You think we are the only people that do road trips? Sure we are more enthusiastic than most, but a very large portion of the country does several drives a year too long to be reasonably accommodated by an electric car.
And people are not going to rent a car several times a year every time they need a trip. They want a car that they can get out of their garage and go.
Your later scenario is much more realistic, families have multiple cars and use one for road trips. But even that will take many years, and will begin to suffer the price-demand relationship I alluded to as well.
Quote from: HighwayStar on September 15, 2021, 06:08:14 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 15, 2021, 05:57:07 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on September 15, 2021, 04:01:54 PM
Yeah no, the electric car will take a long time to really replace the existing fleet. And while you may have a charger at home, you will need more chargers to get anywhere far. The electric car is not yet practical as a road trip vehicle. (that day will come when an electric vehicle holds the Cannonball Title)
Most people not on this forum don't drive far from home on a regular enough basis for that to be an overriding concern. The day-to-day for most people is their commute into work, and maybe a few stops at stores and such on the way home or over the weekend. Long road trips are, for most families, limited to seeing the family over the holidays and maybe a summer vacation. For either of those, renting an ICE car is feasible. There is a small minority of people who like to regularly travel place like national parks on the weekend, and an ICE vehicle will continue to make sense for them until infrastructure improves.
My primary work site is a lengthy commute by most people's standards, 20 miles one way, but an electric car could handle that easily without charging mid-day. Then if I want to take a long road trip I could either use my wife's ICE car or rent one.
You think we are the only people that do road trips? Sure we are more enthusiastic than most, but a very large portion of the country does several drives a year too long to be reasonably accommodated by an electric car.
Bullshit. Ask your coworkers when the last time they did a 240-mile round trip was. I'd be surprised if you got more than one or two that did one more than once or twice a year.
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 15, 2021, 06:28:14 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on September 15, 2021, 06:08:14 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 15, 2021, 05:57:07 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on September 15, 2021, 04:01:54 PM
Yeah no, the electric car will take a long time to really replace the existing fleet. And while you may have a charger at home, you will need more chargers to get anywhere far. The electric car is not yet practical as a road trip vehicle. (that day will come when an electric vehicle holds the Cannonball Title)
Most people not on this forum don't drive far from home on a regular enough basis for that to be an overriding concern. The day-to-day for most people is their commute into work, and maybe a few stops at stores and such on the way home or over the weekend. Long road trips are, for most families, limited to seeing the family over the holidays and maybe a summer vacation. For either of those, renting an ICE car is feasible. There is a small minority of people who like to regularly travel place like national parks on the weekend, and an ICE vehicle will continue to make sense for them until infrastructure improves.
My primary work site is a lengthy commute by most people's standards, 20 miles one way, but an electric car could handle that easily without charging mid-day. Then if I want to take a long road trip I could either use my wife's ICE car or rent one.
You think we are the only people that do road trips? Sure we are more enthusiastic than most, but a very large portion of the country does several drives a year too long to be reasonably accommodated by an electric car.
Bullshit. Ask your coworkers when the last time they did a 240-mile round trip was. I'd be surprised if you got more than one or two that did one more than once or twice a year.
Coworkers, friends, yep most of them are doing trips at least that long. Hell one did one a couple weeks ago just for a football game. And people are not going to buy a car that is going to lock them into renting to leave their own town, not going to happen on any large scale.
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 15, 2021, 05:57:07 PM
.... For either of those, renting an ICE car is feasible. ....
While I recognize the validity of this statement, my problem with it is that the cost of any EV seriously worth considering ($50,000 and up, not including home charging equipment plus installation) is steep enough that I think it's legitimate to want to be able use that car for substantially everything, including travel.
(Edited to add: BTW, obviously I think it's reasonable to expect that, other than perhaps the most hard-core EV supporters or greenies, most people buying an EV are likely to have an ICE vehicle available–e.g., if I had to replace my car and I got an EV, we'd still have my wife's two ICE vehicles available, and we already her TLX for roadtrips. I get that as a practical matter, but there's just something that would stick in my craw about the idea of a $50,000 vehicle that I can't use for longer drives. I also suspect that using an EV might put a crimp in my desire to get off the Interstate and take other routes, such as using Corridor H through West Virginia for trips in that direction. The mountains already sap your EV's range, and access to charging points would be a further issue because I suspect those sorts of roads will wait a lot longer to have sufficient charging stations.)
Those of you interested in the practicality of EV travel ought to read the most recent issue of Car and Driver; the cover story is "EV of the Year" and one of the stories involves an EV race they staged in rally format over 1000 miles ("rally format" denoting there were certain mandatory checkpoints, but otherwise the drivers were free to choose their routes). One segment between Cincinnati and Morgantown was substantially off-Interstate to help make it more complicated. Access to charging points was, of course, a major issue. Pretty interesting read. Their conclusion: Unless you have access to Tesla Superchargers, use an ICE vehicle for long trips. (That makes it all the more interesting to find out whether the reports that Tesla will open the Superchargers to other brands are true and, if so, what the cost will be to use them.)
Quote from: HighwayStar on September 15, 2021, 04:01:54 PM
As to NJ and the jug handle, NJ roads are some of the worst in the country, none of us want to copy their system. The Jug-handle is not an all bad idea, but because it is not consistently implemented it becomes a nightmare to anyone not familiar with the area as you never know if you need to be in the left or right lane. My guess is it is not going far.
This is such a dumb thing to say. It's almost as if you've never driven in New Jersey and never seen the "ALL TURNS FROM RIGHT LANE" signs that they place well in advance of intersections using jughandles. Not to mention that NJDOT's method of signing jughandles is so clear and informative that it became the MUTCD standard in 2009.
Quote
Instead, lets mandate the Texas U turn system on all new freeways nationally, and on all recon projects.
That's another dumb thing to say. While there's nothing inherently wrong with the Texas turnaround system, it's wasteful and impractical to mandate that all new and reconstructed freeways have it. Have you ever noticed that not all freeways have frontage roads? Have you ever noticed how much space it takes to add frontage roads to a freeway?
There are intended and unintended consequences of EVs replacing the ICE fleet and as it relates to C-stores, I see the following.
1. EVs take much longer to charge at present than ICE vehicles, so even if 90% of charging will be at home, the total dwell time of vehicles (and people) at a C-store equipped with chargers may be equal or longer than now, presenting more opportunities for C-stores to sell their other stuff.
2. If EV charging time improves to say 5 minutes for an 80% charge, a substantial % of people will trade the cheapness of charging at home with the convenience of charging on the spot, thus replicating the current ICE model and bringing more EVs into the C-store that otherwise would have bypassed it for a refueling under the current 90% home charging EV model.
3. If the demise of ICEs means the demise of C-stores, why the emerging trend of refueling "palaces" like Buc-ees and Wally's? Surely they have a long-term view that is more informed than ours.
4. There is a natural consolidation of fossil fuel stations going on because of improved fuel economy and the loss of service business attached to gas stations. This has been going on for a few decades. In my current city, in the 1970s there were over 20 places with a fuel pump, and there are less than 10 now. All the mom and pop places are gone, no repair garages sell fuel, and every place with a fuel pump has a C-store of some size. Ironically, with "destination chargers" as well as higher powered superchargers, there may be MORE charging opportunities and chances to draw customers in with an EV future than today. granted, hotels restaurants and shopping malls are more of a likely target than C-stores.
Quote from: Rick Powell on September 17, 2021, 10:02:00 AM
There are intended and unintended consequences of EVs replacing the ICE fleet and as it relates to C-stores, I see the following.
1. EVs take much longer to charge at present than ICE vehicles, so even if 90% of charging will be at home, the total dwell time of vehicles (and people) at a C-store equipped with chargers may be equal or longer than now, presenting more opportunities for C-stores to sell their other stuff.
2. If EV charging time improves to say 5 minutes for an 80% charge, a substantial % of people will trade the cheapness of charging at home with the convenience of charging on the spot, thus replicating the current ICE model and bringing more EVs into the C-store that otherwise would have bypassed it for a refueling under the current 90% home charging EV model.
3. If the demise of ICEs means the demise of C-stores, why the emerging trend of refueling "palaces" like Buc-ees and Wally's? Surely they have a long-term view that is more informed than ours.
4. There is a natural consolidation of fossil fuel stations going on because of improved fuel economy and the loss of service business attached to gas stations. This has been going on for a few decades. In my current city, in the 1970s there were over 20 places with a fuel pump, and there are less than 10 now. All the mom and pop places are gone, no repair garages sell fuel, and every place with a fuel pump has a C-store of some size. Ironically, with "destination chargers" as well as higher powered superchargers, there may be MORE charging opportunities and chances to draw customers in with an EV future than today. granted, hotels restaurants and shopping malls are more of a likely target than C-stores.
1. I would think this would lead to more Sheetz-type stores with nice restrooms, food you can eat for lunch, and seating over the current model of a few snacks and maybe a single-stall restroom. Stuff like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7208724,-73.8031893,3a,37.3y,310.4h,88.19t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sx1Hd8kWlZkMSA9lscDgYQg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Dx1Hd8kWlZkMSA9lscDgYQg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D43.981342%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192) I don't see surviving.
2. Probably not. Remember, home charging is just "plug in when you get home, it's ready when you leave the next day". That's more convenient than stopping somewhere for even 5 minutes, especially since you can time it to charge whenever you want to whatever percentage (usually ~80%, more wears out the battery so people don't do it unless they'll need the range the next day) and the car is going to lose some charge overnight regardless. Batteries are not like gas takes - they don't stay at the same level regardless of how long you sit as long as you don't drive.
Quote from: Ned Weasel on September 17, 2021, 06:42:02 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on September 15, 2021, 04:01:54 PM
As to NJ and the jug handle, NJ roads are some of the worst in the country, none of us want to copy their system. The Jug-handle is not an all bad idea, but because it is not consistently implemented it becomes a nightmare to anyone not familiar with the area as you never know if you need to be in the left or right lane. My guess is it is not going far.
This is such a dumb thing to say. It's almost as if you've never driven in New Jersey and never seen the "ALL TURNS FROM RIGHT LANE" signs that they place well in advance of intersections using jughandles. Not to mention that NJDOT's method of signing jughandles is so clear and informative that it became the MUTCD standard in 2009.
Quote
Instead, lets mandate the Texas U turn system on all new freeways nationally, and on all recon projects.
That's another dumb thing to say. While there's nothing inherently wrong with the Texas turnaround system, it's wasteful and impractical to mandate that all new and reconstructed freeways have it. Have you ever noticed that not all freeways have frontage roads? Have you ever noticed how much space it takes to add frontage roads to a freeway?
Regarding jughandles, those tend to be on multi-lane roads, so if you're in the left lane and see "all turns from right lane", you'll need to move over pretty quick.
Quote from: Ned Weasel on September 17, 2021, 06:42:02 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on September 15, 2021, 04:01:54 PM
As to NJ and the jug handle, NJ roads are some of the worst in the country, none of us want to copy their system. The Jug-handle is not an all bad idea, but because it is not consistently implemented it becomes a nightmare to anyone not familiar with the area as you never know if you need to be in the left or right lane. My guess is it is not going far.
This is such a dumb thing to say. It's almost as if you've never driven in New Jersey and never seen the "ALL TURNS FROM RIGHT LANE" signs that they place well in advance of intersections using jughandles. Not to mention that NJDOT's method of signing jughandles is so clear and informative that it became the MUTCD standard in 2009.
The jughandle is a good thing, but highwaystar is correct in that it's not consistently implemented.
To give you an example, On NJ 73 from I-295 to US 30, there's a few dozen controlled intersections, and any one of them could be forward jughandles, aft-jughandles, or traditional left turn lanes. Signage for jughandles are often off the right shoulder, not the left, so someone in the left lane can easily miss that signage if another vehicle obstructs it. The signage is often just prior to the exit point, such as https://goo.gl/maps/pahVJaG4EFJpnPko9 which is 700 feet prior to the jughandle, or https://goo.gl/maps/jSk1KwQ2axU8JWYAA , which is 400 feet prior to the jughandle.
There's usually no signage when a left turn can be made from the left turn channels, so someone approaching an intersection in the right lane may not be aware there won't be a jughandle.
In some instances, there may be a jughandle when traveling one direction, but a left turn slot going the opposite direction (Fellowship Road, between 295 & the NJ Turnpike, has this feature).
And, don't forget to add in the usual mix of RIROs, driveways, left turns at uncontrolled intersections, and intersections that don't have any means of making left or u-turns.
So, yeah, NJDOT often does a good job of utilizing jughandles. Their standard of signing intersections though on some roadways, especially along roadways where there's no consistency, is subpar at best.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 17, 2021, 02:17:22 PM
The jughandle is a good thing, but highwaystar is correct in that it's not consistently implemented.
To give you an example, On NJ 73 from I-295 to US 30, there's a few dozen controlled intersections, and any one of them could be forward jughandles, aft-jughandles, or traditional left turn lanes. Signage for jughandles are often off the right shoulder, not the left, so someone in the left lane can easily miss that signage if another vehicle obstructs it. The signage is often just prior to the exit point, such as https://goo.gl/maps/pahVJaG4EFJpnPko9 which is 700 feet prior to the jughandle, or https://goo.gl/maps/jSk1KwQ2axU8JWYAA , which is 400 feet prior to the jughandle.
There's usually no signage when a left turn can be made from the left turn channels, so someone approaching an intersection in the right lane may not be aware there won't be a jughandle.
In some instances, there may be a jughandle when traveling one direction, but a left turn slot going the opposite direction (Fellowship Road, between 295 & the NJ Turnpike, has this feature).
And, don't forget to add in the usual mix of RIROs, driveways, left turns at uncontrolled intersections, and intersections that don't have any means of making left or u-turns.
So, yeah, NJDOT often does a good job of utilizing jughandles. Their standard of signing intersections though on some roadways, especially along roadways where there's no consistency, is subpar at best.
I see the issue, but is it really a huge
problem? When giving directions, would someone normally just say "Turn left on Bob Road" when there's a jughandle, as opposed to saying "Take the jughandle for Bob Road and turn left"? When using a GPS, it would normally say something like, "Turn slight-right at Bob Road Access and then turn left." If you're reading a zoomed-in map, it should show where the jughandles are, although, granted, it typically won't show left turn prohibitions. If you're reading a zoomed-out map, then yeah, I can see situations arise where one might wonder, "Is there a jughandle for Bob Road, or is it a conventional left turn?" But the nice thing about arterial highways in New Jersey is that there are tons of convenient, well signed U-turns (via jughandles, ramps, or even median crossings), so you should be able to find your way back around in case you miss a turn. This is something I've found severely lacking in most states that aren't New Jersey and Michigan.
At any rate, sure, it's not a perfect system, but I appreciate the thoughtful solution to the problem. And moreover, saying "NJ roads are some of the worst in the country" is totally bogus for anyone actually paying attention. Sure, there are some blemishes here and there, but same goes for roads in every state.
Quote from: Ned Weasel on September 17, 2021, 06:42:02 AM
While there's nothing inherently wrong with the Texas turnaround system, it's wasteful and impractical to mandate that all new and reconstructed freeways have it. Have you ever noticed that not all freeways have frontage roads? Have you ever noticed how much space it takes to add frontage roads to a freeway?
I think it would be reasonable to say that all new freeways with frontage roads should have one-way frontage roads with turnarounds, but leave the option of not building frontage roads on the table. Frontage roads do have a bunch of drawbacks in terms of the types of land use they tend to promote.
Quote from: vdeane on September 17, 2021, 12:50:05 PM
Quote from: Rick Powell on September 17, 2021, 10:02:00 AM
There are intended and unintended consequences of EVs replacing the ICE fleet and as it relates to C-stores, I see the following.
1. EVs take much longer to charge at present than ICE vehicles, so even if 90% of charging will be at home, the total dwell time of vehicles (and people) at a C-store equipped with chargers may be equal or longer than now, presenting more opportunities for C-stores to sell their other stuff.
[...]
3. If the demise of ICEs means the demise of C-stores, why the emerging trend of refueling "palaces" like Buc-ees and Wally's? Surely they have a long-term view that is more informed than ours.
1. I would think this would lead to more Sheetz-type stores with nice restrooms, food you can eat for lunch, and seating over the current model of a few snacks and maybe a single-stall restroom. Stuff like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7208724,-73.8031893,3a,37.3y,310.4h,88.19t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sx1Hd8kWlZkMSA9lscDgYQg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Dx1Hd8kWlZkMSA9lscDgYQg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D43.981342%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192) I don't see surviving.
This is exactly what I'm thinking–the small hole-in-the-wall 7-11s and such will go away and the market will tilt toward things like QuikTrip/OnCue/Sheetz/Wawa/Buc-ee's* because those offer some form of something to
do while you're waiting for the charge.
You may even see Walmart/Target install chargers all over their lots so that they become an attractive place to make a pit stop. It's easy to kill time wandering around a Walmart or Target.
*Yeah, I just put OnCue in the same category as Sheetz/Wawa. Deal with it, Easterners.
From what I can tell, OnCue isn't even a store. It's a streaming service that doesn't even exist anymore.
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 17, 2021, 08:34:42 PM
Quote from: Ned Weasel on September 17, 2021, 06:42:02 AM
While there's nothing inherently wrong with the Texas turnaround system, it's wasteful and impractical to mandate that all new and reconstructed freeways have it. Have you ever noticed that not all freeways have frontage roads? Have you ever noticed how much space it takes to add frontage roads to a freeway?
I think it would be reasonable to say that all new freeways with frontage roads should have one-way frontage roads with turnarounds, but leave the option of not building frontage roads on the table. Frontage roads do have a bunch of drawbacks in terms of the types of land use they tend to promote.
Who says you need a frontage road to have a Texas U-turn?
https://www.google.com/maps/@29.1630743,-95.4534866,442m/data=!3m1!1e3
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 17, 2021, 08:34:42 PM
Quote from: Ned Weasel on September 17, 2021, 06:42:02 AM
While there's nothing inherently wrong with the Texas turnaround system, it's wasteful and impractical to mandate that all new and reconstructed freeways have it. Have you ever noticed that not all freeways have frontage roads? Have you ever noticed how much space it takes to add frontage roads to a freeway?
I think it would be reasonable to say that all new freeways with frontage roads should have one-way frontage roads with turnarounds, but leave the option of not building frontage roads on the table. Frontage roads do have a bunch of drawbacks in terms of the types of land use they tend to promote.
Quote from: vdeane on September 17, 2021, 12:50:05 PM
Quote from: Rick Powell on September 17, 2021, 10:02:00 AM
There are intended and unintended consequences of EVs replacing the ICE fleet and as it relates to C-stores, I see the following.
1. EVs take much longer to charge at present than ICE vehicles, so even if 90% of charging will be at home, the total dwell time of vehicles (and people) at a C-store equipped with chargers may be equal or longer than now, presenting more opportunities for C-stores to sell their other stuff.
[...]
3. If the demise of ICEs means the demise of C-stores, why the emerging trend of refueling "palaces" like Buc-ees and Wally's? Surely they have a long-term view that is more informed than ours.
1. I would think this would lead to more Sheetz-type stores with nice restrooms, food you can eat for lunch, and seating over the current model of a few snacks and maybe a single-stall restroom. Stuff like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7208724,-73.8031893,3a,37.3y,310.4h,88.19t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sx1Hd8kWlZkMSA9lscDgYQg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Dx1Hd8kWlZkMSA9lscDgYQg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D43.981342%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192) I don't see surviving.
This is exactly what I'm thinking–the small hole-in-the-wall 7-11s and such will go away and the market will tilt toward things like QuikTrip/OnCue/Sheetz/Wawa/Buc-ee's* because those offer some form of something to do while you're waiting for the charge.
You may even see Walmart/Target install chargers all over their lots so that they become an attractive place to make a pit stop. It's easy to kill time wandering around a Walmart or Target.
*Yeah, I just put OnCue in the same category as Sheetz/Wawa. Deal with it, Easterners.
WalMart is actually the location of a good number of Electrify America stations. It's to the point where going to WalMart is basically mandatory if roadtripping in a non-Tesla EV.
Regarding Wawa, they don't actually have any indoor seating in their stores. No outdoor seating either, with the exception of their Florida locations (and maybe a newer one in Philly). That will have to change if they want people to eat lunch there while charging their car. Eating in a car is not fun, even while parked, at least if you don't want to get the inside of your car all dirty.
Quote from: Ned Weasel on September 17, 2021, 08:23:56 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 17, 2021, 02:17:22 PM
...So, yeah, NJDOT often does a good job of utilizing jughandles. Their standard of signing intersections though on some roadways, especially along roadways where there's no consistency, is subpar at best.
I see the issue, but is it really a huge problem? When giving directions, would someone normally just say "Turn left on Bob Road" when there's a jughandle, as opposed to saying "Take the jughandle for Bob Road and turn left"? When using a GPS, it would normally say something like, "Turn slight-right at Bob Road Access and then turn left." If you're reading a zoomed-in map, it should show where the jughandles are, although, granted, it typically won't show left turn prohibitions. If you're reading a zoomed-out map, then yeah, I can see situations arise where one might wonder, "Is there a jughandle for Bob Road, or is it a conventional left turn?" But the nice thing about arterial highways in New Jersey is that there are tons of convenient, well signed U-turns (via jughandles, ramps, or even median crossings), so you should be able to find your way back around in case you miss a turn. This is something I've found severely lacking in most states that aren't New Jersey and Michigan.
At any rate, sure, it's not a perfect system, but I appreciate the thoughtful solution to the problem. And moreover, saying "NJ roads are some of the worst in the country" is totally bogus for anyone actually paying attention. Sure, there are some blemishes here and there, but same goes for roads in every state.
Some of it is people don't know what a jughandle is. Or they're given incomplete directions. Or they see a place they want to get to on the other side of the road, and they are completely ignorant of the signage to keep right to make a u-turn. Or, they don't care.
Nearly no one reviews zoomed in maps of their drives beforehand. A lot aren't even using GPS devices.
The issue is a big one when they stop in the left lane to make that left/u-turn, completely jamming traffic. Especially true when the median is just a 2 foot wide jersey barrier.
Quote from: vdeane on September 17, 2021, 10:06:36 PM
Regarding Wawa, they don't actually have any indoor seating in their stores. No outdoor seating either, with the exception of their Florida locations (and maybe a newer one in Philly). That will have to change if they want people to eat lunch there while charging their car. Eating in a car is not fun, even while parked, at least if you don't want to get the inside of your car all dirty.
In PA, their really unusual rules have opened up more opportunities for convenience stores to sell beer & wine, but the store has to have a 'seating' area for people to drink the beer they just purchased. (I'm quite sure almost no one does) So some Wawas will allow room for a seating area, but I'm sure most people aren't going to spend a half hour sitting in a convenience store.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 19, 2021, 07:09:45 AM
Nearly no one reviews zoomed in maps of their drives beforehand. A lot aren't even using GPS devices.
And that is a big problem. People think I have a superpower with navigation (OK, maybe I do somewhat, as I'm still not quite sure how I managed to time some work trips precisely with when I wanted to get back to the office), but most of that is just that I actually look at maps and street view before I go places rather than try to drive blind or rely exclusively on GPS like most people.
Quote
In PA, their really unusual rules have opened up more opportunities for convenience stores to sell beer & wine, but the store has to have a 'seating' area for people to drink the beer they just purchased. (I'm quite sure almost no one does) So some Wawas will allow room for a seating area, but I'm sure most people aren't going to spend a half hour sitting in a convenience store.
Why not? Maybe they won't for that purpose, but if you're getting lunch there and are on the road, where else are you going to eat it? The lack of any kind of seating actually keeps me away from Wawa to a decent extent because I'm not going to eat in the car, so I can only get dinner there, not lunch (I've only managed lunch twice; once in Florida where there was outdoor seating available, and once for a BYOL roadmeet). Even with Stewart's locally, if I'm in the field for work, I need somewhere to sit to eat, and if I'm stopping as I leave for Rochester, it's nicer to just stop before I get on the interstate rather than drive back to my apartment only to pass it again anyways when I actually leave.
Quote from: 1 on September 17, 2021, 08:40:27 PM
From what I can tell, OnCue isn't even a store. It's a streaming service that doesn't even exist anymore.
Huh, what do you think they need such a big canopy for then?
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1843729,-97.418717,3a,48.9y,282.06h,93.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svuNvK9eYU0jJy8Z9qhfPGg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.oncueexpress.com/
Quote from: webny99 on August 25, 2021, 11:48:19 AM
There was an abandoned gas station near me for a while - since torn down - that I maintain should become a Dunkin'. It's a perfect location - even better than most of the existing Dunkin' locations IMO.
I even contacted Dunkin' Brands about it, but nothing ever became of it (sadly but unsurprisingly).
Our old Comco gas station will soon become a Burger King, as the old one is a 1994 built and is outgrown.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 19, 2021, 07:09:45 AM
Some of it is people don't know what a jughandle is. Or they're given incomplete directions. Or they see a place they want to get to on the other side of the road, and they are completely ignorant of the signage to keep right to make a u-turn. Or, they don't care.
Nearly no one reviews zoomed in maps of their drives beforehand. A lot aren't even using GPS devices.
But you can have the same issue on any expressway, in any state. If you want to go left on an intersecting road, the only way to know well in advance whether it's a left turn or a right-hand exit is to view a detailed map or get detailed directions.
Quote
The issue is a big one when they stop in the left lane to make that left/u-turn, completely jamming traffic. Especially true when the median is just a 2 foot wide jersey barrier.
Continuous-flow intersections have the same potential for this. The new one fairly close to me in Kansas gets people trying to turn left at the "NO TURNS" sign in the middle part of the intersection.
Quote from: vdeane on September 19, 2021, 04:04:53 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 19, 2021, 07:09:45 AM
Nearly no one reviews zoomed in maps of their drives beforehand. A lot aren't even using GPS devices.
And that is a big problem. People think I have a superpower with navigation (OK, maybe I do somewhat, as I'm still not quite sure how I managed to time some work trips precisely with when I wanted to get back to the office), but most of that is just that I actually look at maps and street view before I go places rather than try to drive blind or rely exclusively on GPS like most people.
Quote
In PA, their really unusual rules have opened up more opportunities for convenience stores to sell beer & wine, but the store has to have a 'seating' area for people to drink the beer they just purchased. (I'm quite sure almost no one does) So some Wawas will allow room for a seating area, but I'm sure most people aren't going to spend a half hour sitting in a convenience store.
Why not? Maybe they won't for that purpose, but if you're getting lunch there and are on the road, where else are you going to eat it? The lack of any kind of seating actually keeps me away from Wawa to a decent extent because I'm not going to eat in the car, so I can only get dinner there, not lunch (I've only managed lunch twice; once in Florida where there was outdoor seating available, and once for a BYOL roadmeet). Even with Stewart's locally, if I'm in the field for work, I need somewhere to sit to eat, and if I'm stopping as I leave for Rochester, it's nicer to just stop before I get on the interstate rather than drive back to my apartment only to pass it again anyways when I actually leave.
Yeah, Stewart's was a local hangout in a couple of places in the Albany area.
Led to the moniker "StewCrew" in Bethlehem...
Quote from: Rothman on September 19, 2021, 08:58:13 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 19, 2021, 04:04:53 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 19, 2021, 07:09:45 AM
Nearly no one reviews zoomed in maps of their drives beforehand. A lot aren't even using GPS devices.
And that is a big problem. People think I have a superpower with navigation (OK, maybe I do somewhat, as I'm still not quite sure how I managed to time some work trips precisely with when I wanted to get back to the office), but most of that is just that I actually look at maps and street view before I go places rather than try to drive blind or rely exclusively on GPS like most people.
Quote
In PA, their really unusual rules have opened up more opportunities for convenience stores to sell beer & wine, but the store has to have a 'seating' area for people to drink the beer they just purchased. (I'm quite sure almost no one does) So some Wawas will allow room for a seating area, but I'm sure most people aren't going to spend a half hour sitting in a convenience store.
Why not? Maybe they won't for that purpose, but if you're getting lunch there and are on the road, where else are you going to eat it? The lack of any kind of seating actually keeps me away from Wawa to a decent extent because I'm not going to eat in the car, so I can only get dinner there, not lunch (I've only managed lunch twice; once in Florida where there was outdoor seating available, and once for a BYOL roadmeet). Even with Stewart's locally, if I'm in the field for work, I need somewhere to sit to eat, and if I'm stopping as I leave for Rochester, it's nicer to just stop before I get on the interstate rather than drive back to my apartment only to pass it again anyways when I actually leave.
Yeah, Stewart's was a local hangout in a couple of places in the Albany area.
Led to the moniker "StewCrew" in Bethlehem...
Oh yeah, the good ol Stewart's. :colorful:
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 17, 2021, 08:34:42 PM
Quote from: Ned Weasel on September 17, 2021, 06:42:02 AM
While there's nothing inherently wrong with the Texas turnaround system, it's wasteful and impractical to mandate that all new and reconstructed freeways have it. Have you ever noticed that not all freeways have frontage roads? Have you ever noticed how much space it takes to add frontage roads to a freeway?
I think it would be reasonable to say that all new freeways with frontage roads should have one-way frontage roads with turnarounds, but leave the option of not building frontage roads on the table. Frontage roads do have a bunch of drawbacks in terms of the types of land use they tend to promote.
Quote from: vdeane on September 17, 2021, 12:50:05 PM
Quote from: Rick Powell on September 17, 2021, 10:02:00 AM
There are intended and unintended consequences of EVs replacing the ICE fleet and as it relates to C-stores, I see the following.
1. EVs take much longer to charge at present than ICE vehicles, so even if 90% of charging will be at home, the total dwell time of vehicles (and people) at a C-store equipped with chargers may be equal or longer than now, presenting more opportunities for C-stores to sell their other stuff.
[...]
3. If the demise of ICEs means the demise of C-stores, why the emerging trend of refueling "palaces" like Buc-ees and Wally's? Surely they have a long-term view that is more informed than ours.
1. I would think this would lead to more Sheetz-type stores with nice restrooms, food you can eat for lunch, and seating over the current model of a few snacks and maybe a single-stall restroom. Stuff like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7208724,-73.8031893,3a,37.3y,310.4h,88.19t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sx1Hd8kWlZkMSA9lscDgYQg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Dx1Hd8kWlZkMSA9lscDgYQg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D43.981342%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192) I don't see surviving.
This is exactly what I'm thinking–the small hole-in-the-wall 7-11s and such will go away and the market will tilt toward things like QuikTrip/OnCue/Sheetz/Wawa/Buc-ee's* because those offer some form of something to do while you're waiting for the charge.
You may even see Walmart/Target install chargers all over their lots so that they become an attractive place to make a pit stop. It's easy to kill time wandering around a Walmart or Target.
*Yeah, I just put OnCue in the same category as Sheetz/Wawa. Deal with it, Easterners.
I would also include destination stores like Ikea, Cabela's, Bass Pro Shops, and Micro Center. Shoppers often drive a couple hours just to visit these chains. Best of all, these places could charge vehicles cheaply using solar panels on the roof as most are open during daylight.
How many people are stopping at those stores on roadtrips? EVs only really shine with home charging, and people with home charging don't need to recharge while running errands. That said, there will probably be some market for non-home, non-travel charging locations due to people who need street parking.
Quote from: vdeane on September 21, 2021, 08:38:56 PM
How many people are stopping at those stores on roadtrips? EVs only really shine with home charging, and people with home charging don't need to recharge while running errands. That said, there will probably be some market for non-home, non-travel charging locations due to people who need street parking.
Or even people who have reserved parking at home but cannot install a charging station–for example, townhouse residents who live on a court with assigned parking spaces or similar. (I live in a townhouse, but I have a one-car garage. There are about ten houses up the street that have no garages and assigned parking spaces. Those people can't install charging stations, though I suppose in theory maybe they could run an extra-long cable from the house to the car.)
In the future I would hope that those areas would be forced to eventually allow/install charging stations if we're expected to go all-electric, either by market forces (the value of places not offering charging going down as people look elsewhere) or by government edict (like the law that makes it illegal for a HOA to block the installation of a TV antenna). EVs suck if you don't have home charging, and I think even EV enthusiasts agree with that!
Time to fill up a gas tank: 14 seconds
Time to charge a Tesla: 3014 seconds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9rTCA3LCTY
Quote from: vdeane on September 22, 2021, 12:50:47 PM
In the future I would hope that those areas would be forced to eventually allow/install charging stations if we're expected to go all-electric, either by market forces (the value of places not offering charging going down as people look elsewhere) or by government edict (like the law that makes it illegal for a HOA to block the installation of a TV antenna). EVs suck if you don't have home charging, and I think even EV enthusiasts agree with that!
Such "force" has not happened in other areas of housing -- elevators, HVAC, heck, you even still find wooden pipes in some old Northeastern areas...
Quote from: vdeane on September 21, 2021, 08:38:56 PM
How many people are stopping at those stores on roadtrips? EVs only really shine with home charging, and people with home charging don't need to recharge while running errands. That said, there will probably be some market for non-home, non-travel charging locations due to people who need street parking.
People are not stopping at Ikea, Cabela's, Bass Pro Shops, and Micro Center. That is their destination. It's not unusual for customers to drive from 100 miles or more to shop. There's plenty of time for shoppers to recharge their vehicles while shopping at any of these stores. I used to drive from Tidewater to Potomac Mills because it was the closest Ikea when I lived in Portsmouth, VA. Even now, it's over an hour for me to reach the nearest Ikea in Covina, CA which I visit every 2-3 months. I don't drive an EV, but I'd be charging it at Ikea if I had one.
Pre-Covid, I'd regularly see day trippers from LA and OC coming to Palm Springs on my Mt San Jacinto hikes. It's a minimum 100 miles just to reach Palm Springs. They'd park at the tram and the couple available EV chargers were almost always in use daily. Your impressions in a dense, populated state don't translate to those parts of the country where people live much farther apart.
I thought this was going to be about conversions to taquerias. Leaving disappointed.
Quote from: Rothman on September 22, 2021, 11:21:08 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 22, 2021, 12:50:47 PM
In the future I would hope that those areas would be forced to eventually allow/install charging stations if we're expected to go all-electric, either by market forces (the value of places not offering charging going down as people look elsewhere) or by government edict (like the law that makes it illegal for a HOA to block the installation of a TV antenna). EVs suck if you don't have home charging, and I think even EV enthusiasts agree with that!
Such "force" has not happened in other areas of housing -- elevators, HVAC, heck, you even still find wooden pipes in some old Northeastern areas...
And? Not sure how they're all comparable. Heating is actually required under law to be considered habitable, and apartment complexes at least have window AC units in the walls. Never seen anywhere where a landlord or HOA would ban window AC units, either. Elevators is an interesting peculiarity of the ADA, and probably reflects the US preoccupation with homeownership (a homeowner could install a stair lift if needed or choose to live in a ranch house, for example); I'm not sure how common they are in new apartments, but older ones or townhomes definitely don't have them. And I'm not sure how municipal wood pipes would even compare.
Right now there isn't a ton of interest in this since EVs are still seen as "niche", but remember, policymakers want them everyone to be driving them within a couple decades. NY has the law banning new ICE cars after 2035, for example, and I was reading that the UK and another country are pressuring the US to adopt that nation-wide. If that's going to happen, home charging is going to have to be available.
Quote from: skluth on September 21, 2021, 02:17:14 PM
I would also include destination stores like Ikea, Cabela's, Bass Pro Shops, and Micro Center. Shoppers often drive a couple hours just to visit these chains. Best of all, these places could charge vehicles cheaply using solar panels on the roof as most are open during daylight.
Sure. Casinos too. They'd love for you to stop to charge your car, wander inside for "15 minutes"...come out two hours later $1000 in the hole...
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 23, 2021, 03:11:12 PM
Quote from: skluth on September 21, 2021, 02:17:14 PM
I would also include destination stores like Ikea, Cabela's, Bass Pro Shops, and Micro Center. Shoppers often drive a couple hours just to visit these chains. Best of all, these places could charge vehicles cheaply using solar panels on the roof as most are open during daylight.
Sure. Casinos too. They'd love for you to stop to charge your car, wander inside for "15 minutes"...come out two hours later $1000 in the hole...
Unfortunately when doing a long drive I don't have time to wander mindlessly around stores.
Quote from: HighwayStar on September 23, 2021, 10:50:26 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 23, 2021, 03:11:12 PM
Quote from: skluth on September 21, 2021, 02:17:14 PM
I would also include destination stores like Ikea, Cabela's, Bass Pro Shops, and Micro Center. Shoppers often drive a couple hours just to visit these chains. Best of all, these places could charge vehicles cheaply using solar panels on the roof as most are open during daylight.
Sure. Casinos too. They'd love for you to stop to charge your car, wander inside for "15 minutes"...come out two hours later $1000 in the hole...
Unfortunately when doing a long drive I don't have time to wander mindlessly around stores.
Go for a short one then.
Honda and Toyota aren't on the battery-operated train yet. Until they are, I withhold judgement.
I have no interest in a car with such limited range unless they can figure out a way to get me across country with one.
Quote from: TempoNick on September 24, 2021, 11:35:55 AM
Honda and Toyota aren't on the battery-operated train yet. Until they are, I withhold judgement.
I have no interest in a car with such limited range unless they can figure out a way to get me across country with one.
That is why if I ever go this route, a plug-in hybrid is what I would be interested in.
Quote from: vdeane on September 23, 2021, 12:53:25 PM
.... Never seen anywhere where a landlord or HOA would ban window AC units, either. ....
Come visit our neighborhood. It's unambiguously written into the covenants. The people who used to live across the street put one in and ultimately got fined, I believe, because they didn't remove it after multiple notices. (Our houses all have central AC, which is why window units aren't allowed, although to be fair the top floors tend to be a bit stuffier because most houses don't have dual-zone HVAC but could probably use it.)
Quote from: HighwayStar on September 23, 2021, 10:50:26 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 23, 2021, 03:11:12 PM
Quote from: skluth on September 21, 2021, 02:17:14 PM
I would also include destination stores like Ikea, Cabela's, Bass Pro Shops, and Micro Center. Shoppers often drive a couple hours just to visit these chains. Best of all, these places could charge vehicles cheaply using solar panels on the roof as most are open during daylight.
Sure. Casinos too. They'd love for you to stop to charge your car, wander inside for "15 minutes"...come out two hours later $1000 in the hole...
Unfortunately when doing a long drive I don't have time to wander mindlessly around stores.
Currently, having a plug-in vehicle works best if that's not someone's only vehicle, and the family tends to take long trips. If you, or the family, have two or more vehicles, a plug-in would work just fine commuting to and from work, rolling around town, etc. But if you're going on a long trip, you would take the other vehicle.
In a reality, there's nothing unusual about this arrangement. Many people may have a low fuel mileage SUV, and a better fuel mileage sedan, and we'll take this sedan on longer trips whenever possible.
Also reality... Not many people go on long road trips.
Quote from: TempoNick on September 24, 2021, 11:35:55 AM
Honda and Toyota aren't on the battery-operated train yet. Until they are, I withhold judgement.
I have no interest in a car with such limited range unless they can figure out a way to get me across country with one.
Both are still trying to push for hydrogen, though Honda is partnering with GM to build some electric vehicles later this decade and Toyota is rumored to be bringing the Celica back as an electric sports car.
A drawback to how Tesla's are designed that I thought was interesting:
https://jalopnik.com/a-tesla-bricking-itself-on-the-highway-is-a-reminder-th-1847734019
Quote from: Takumi on September 25, 2021, 01:39:41 PM
Quote from: TempoNick on September 24, 2021, 11:35:55 AM
Honda and Toyota aren't on the battery-operated train yet. Until they are, I withhold judgement.
I have no interest in a car with such limited range unless they can figure out a way to get me across country with one.
Both are still trying to push for hydrogen, though Honda is partnering with GM to build some electric vehicles later this decade and Toyota is rumored to be bringing the Celica back as an electric sports car.
GM? Ugh. More ugh after their battery randomly catching on fire problem. Guess I'll have to abandon Honda once everything goes EV.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 25, 2021, 12:29:54 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on September 23, 2021, 10:50:26 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 23, 2021, 03:11:12 PM
Quote from: skluth on September 21, 2021, 02:17:14 PM
I would also include destination stores like Ikea, Cabela's, Bass Pro Shops, and Micro Center. Shoppers often drive a couple hours just to visit these chains. Best of all, these places could charge vehicles cheaply using solar panels on the roof as most are open during daylight.
Sure. Casinos too. They'd love for you to stop to charge your car, wander inside for "15 minutes"...come out two hours later $1000 in the hole...
Unfortunately when doing a long drive I don't have time to wander mindlessly around stores.
Currently, having a plug-in vehicle works best if that's not someone's only vehicle, and the family tends to take long trips. If you, or the family, have two or more vehicles, a plug-in would work just fine commuting to and from work, rolling around town, etc. But if you're going on a long trip, you would take the other vehicle.
In a reality, there's nothing unusual about this arrangement. Many people may have a low fuel mileage SUV, and a better fuel mileage sedan, and we'll take this sedan on longer trips whenever possible.
Also reality... Not many people go on long road trips.
Plug-in hybrids work great on long trips. We have a Prius Prime at work and have taken it on (nearly) day-long trips before... it works great. Starts in EV mode and then operates the same as a regular hybrid once the battery runs down to a certain point. It's amazing how little gas it uses, too.
Fully electric vehicles are, of course, a different story. Those are only usable on long trips (Teslas more than others) if one is willing to stop for a while every 100-150 miles or so, and even then only on certain corridors, and with more planning for charging than one would plan for refueling an ICE car ("we'll just stop at a station somewhere along the road" is definitely the wrong attitude for driving an EV!). Tesla has the superchargers; CCS cars have to rely on Electrify America (which does have reliability issues, though most stations have at least one charger working) as other charging networks don't offer true fast charging. It says something that there are at least a couple websites out there dedicated to charging and that non-Tesla EV owners will check both in detail in advance of taking a trip outside of their area.
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 25, 2021, 12:07:25 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 23, 2021, 12:53:25 PM
.... Never seen anywhere where a landlord or HOA would ban window AC units, either. ....
Come visit our neighborhood. It's unambiguously written into the covenants. The people who used to live across the street put one in and ultimately got fined, I believe, because they didn't remove it after multiple notices. (Our houses all have central AC, which is why window units aren't allowed, although to be fair the top floors tend to be a bit stuffier because most houses don't have dual-zone HVAC but could probably use it.)
Interesting. I didn't even consider that one might even want a window AC unit if they have a HVAC system. Still, it's hardly a ban on having air conditioning at all.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 25, 2021, 01:59:38 PM
A drawback to how Tesla's are designed that I thought was interesting:
https://jalopnik.com/a-tesla-bricking-itself-on-the-highway-is-a-reminder-th-1847734019
This can be an issue with other forms of autonomous and driverless vehicles as well. The safety requirements that allow for egress from a stalled vehicle/train do not permit the vehicle to disengage its brakes whenever it is possible for a passenger to board/deboard. With vehicles that have truck-sized bogies and undercarriages, it is fairly simple to manually chock both the service brake cylinders and the separate emergency brake cylinders from underneath the vehicle (if you can get underneath on both sides, which sometimes is impossible). Once you've done all that, you never stop the vehicle after you get it moving. We generally require the use of a separate rescue vehicle that can couple to the stranded vehicle on either end, and control the brakes (and override the emergency brakes) with pneumatics similar to the way a freight locomotive works. That's not possible with a Tesla, but I would be fearful of a roadside warrior releasing the brakes on any autonomous car if there is no manual way to control the brakes afterwards.
Another issue is that Tesla's have electrically controlled friction brakes, whereas most other brands (such as the Nissan Leaf) still have hydraulically-controlled friction brakes. It is fairly easy to switch from software controlled hydraulics (with manual pedal as a backup) to manual pedal control only. Unfortunately, you've got to have a completely separate backup controller for the electric brakes to accomplish the same function. (Don't confuse this with the regenerative braking that is available on many electric vehicles; that feature turns the electric motor into a generator to decelerate the vehicle down to a slower speed where the friction brakes take over).
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 25, 2021, 12:29:54 PM
Also reality... Not many people go on long road trips.
Also reality ... as it stands now, a Nissan Leaf driven by a friend's wife had trouble making it from Indianapolis to Louisville. Sorry, but that's pathetic. Going to Cleveland from Columbus, tooling around all day and coming back isn't too much to ask.
Quote from: tradephoric on September 22, 2021, 01:04:08 PM
Time to fill up a gas tank: 14 seconds
Time to charge a Tesla: 3014 seconds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9rTCA3LCTY
I think it's marketing genius for Tesla to show how quickly the car is charging in mi/hr. Just like the guy's reaction in the video when the charge rate hit 1,000 mi/hr... OMG that is sooo fast! But then you realize it's still going to take over 30 minutes to fully charge.
Assume it takes 3 minutes to fill up the gas tank in an ICE vehicle and you can go 500 miles on a full tank of gas. In that case it's "charging" at (60/3)*500 miles = 10,000 mi/hr.... or 10X faster than the Tesla. OMG that is sooo sooo sooo sooo sooo sooo sooo sooo sooo sooo (10 sooo's) fast!
The way I see it, you can't go from Columbus to Cleveland to see a baseball game and maybe tool around the city, have dinner and get back. Or if you can, you're cutting it close. Until they fix that problem, these things are a no-go.
In this region, most of the large cities are 2-3-4 hours apart and there is a lot of travel between these cities. (Columbus, Cincinnati, Dayton, Detroit, Toledo, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, Youngstown, Indy, Fort Wayne, Grand Rapids, Akron, Cleveland, etc.). We're not talking about a once-in-a-lifetime trip across the country here. We're talking about cousin Dee's kid getting married or Uncle Fred's funeral.
As it stands now, these things only work as a second car and they're too expensive for that.
Quote from: TempoNick on October 07, 2021, 12:30:11 AM
The way I see it, you can't go from Columbus to Cleveland to see a baseball game and maybe tool around the city, have dinner and get back. Or if you can, you're cutting it close. Until they fix that problem, these things are a no-go.
In this region, most of the large cities are 2-3-4 hours apart and there is a lot of travel between these cities. (Columbus, Cincinnati, Dayton, Detroit, Toledo, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, Youngstown, Indy, Fort Wayne, Grand Rapids, Akron, Cleveland, etc.). We're not talking about a once-in-a-lifetime trip across the country here. We're talking about cousin Dee's kid getting married or Uncle Fred's funeral.
As it stands now, these things only work as a second car and they're too expensive for that.
Yes, they are quite unrealistic, more of a rich person's play thing than a real car. Until the Cannonball run record is held by an electric car I will stick to the Town Car.
Y'all might think Teslas and other EVs aren't much use, but they're incredibly popular in So Cal. They accounted for 8% of total vehicle sales in California last year and sometimes I think half of those are in the Coachella Valley. I see them every time I leave my home; they're no longer a rarity. The way politics are going, all new vehicles worldwide will be EVs by 2050 if not sooner. It won't matter if you find it less convenient. Political reality will eventually mandate oppressive taxes for those insisting on still driving vehicles with internal combustion engines.
All the whining about how it's not going to happen because it's so inconvenient compared to gas vehicles is irrelevant. We're still early in the evolution of EVs. There will be many improvements to EVs in the next 30 years just like there were for autos from 1910 to 1940. It's not a matter of if everyone will be driving EVs; it's a matter of when. Which brings us back to what do we do with all the old gas stations? That is the topic. Please start a new topic if you want to discuss what you don't like about EVs.
They're not a rarity here either, but there's still a serious conundrum: Even the most ardent EV fans will generally agree that for long-distance trips, especially trips that don't involve all-Interstate travel, you pretty much need to use an internal-combustion vehicle for now (unless you have the most expensive long-range Tesla Model S). Fair enough, but I think it's equally fair to say–as I have–that if a car is going to cost $50,000 (which pretty much every EV I'd be willing to consider does), I find it reasonable to feel that you should be able to use that car for pretty much everything. Hopefully that'll be viable in the future. For now, I thought it was pretty interesting that the recent EV-focused issue of Car and Driver had a 1000-mile rally-style race involving different EVs, including an off-Interstate segment from Cincinnati to Morgantown, and all the staffers involved said for any long trip they'd use an ICE vehicle instead in the future.