HAWK at a fire station

[Tonytone]

Is it that hard, to know how the hawk signal works? They are now installing more in Delaware, Where school bus stops are & where many pedestrians may cross the road.


iPhone

[jakeroot]

My problem is just that dark signals are allowed at all. I would rather a flashing green orb or flashing yellow orb were displayed at these part time signals. Pretty much every potential issue with dark signals would immediately vanish as there'd no longer be any!

Yes, there would still be dark signals, in the event of a power failure.  I still insist that nobody out there on the road would actually come to a stop just because a HAWK or ramp meter signal is dark.  Nobody....Think about a crosswalk that uses a standard three-section stoplight, only turning red when a pedestrian pushes a button.  Are you trying to tell me people come to a complete stop at such a crosswalk when there's a power failure.  I don't think so!  Drivers know the difference between a light that controls an intersection and one that doesn't.

We can make our own luck by just not allowing dark signals. I think the chances of an accident occurring due to misunderstanding is very low, but that doesn't mean we can't change what we have to reduce any chance of confusion.

I was going to ask for a link, but I finally found one (northbound 15 on-ramp from Timpanogos). Only one I could find, though.

I guess they're not as common as I thought -- but really, the meters that don't have it is just because UDOT hasn't gotten around to them yet; they were put up before the reflective borders became a thing. The rule of thumb is that after around 2014, any new or replaced ramp meters will have reflective tape. These freeways have been recently reconstructed, so they all have the reflective backplates on the meters:

- I-15 between Timpanogos Highway and Bangerter Highway (reconstructed 2016)
- I-15 between Beck Street and Centerville (reconstructed 2015)
- I-215 southwest quadrant, between Redwood and SR-201 (reconstructed 2017)

I usually come to the conclusion based on the design of the ramp meter signals compared to nearby ramp terminii. At the American Fork DDI's, for example, the crossover points feature signals with the reflective border, but the ramp meters do not have the reflective border. This reflects modern WSDOT practice; as many western states do things pretty similar (minus a few obvious things), I figured it might be a reliable way to indicate in-field practices elsewhere. Guess not!

[jakeroot]

SignBridge, here's another supplemental HAWK sign in Washington with an indecipherable legend:

[Amtrakprod]

Note that the HAWK-style signals are actually considered beacons as far as the MUTCD is concerned ("Pedestrian Hybrid Beacon" and "Emergency Vehicle Hybrid Beacon" are the official terms). While beacons, by MUTCD definition, are still considered a type of signal, they are operationally different from regular traffic signals. I think this is part of the distinction that allows them to be dark when not in use.

That reminds me. The MUTCD's Interim Approval for Use of Retroreflective Border on Signal Backplates does not carve out exceptions for when the border should not be applied. HAWKs and ramp meters don't need them as they are normally dark anyways (no need to call further attention to them), and single-face beacons are typically accompanied by signage or markings that spell out rules when no flashing is occurring.

Here's a couple examples, from WA, of signals that have had reflective tape unnecessarily applied. WSDOT seems to have an exception for ramp meters, as this is one of only a very few with the border, but it would better if the FHWA specifically ruled them out to reduce the chance of it being incorrectly applied in the future, especially as the rule is likely to be implemented into the future MUTCD:

Hmmm, never seen such skinny strips of reflective tape before. In MA, we always use alot.

[Amtrakprod]

Has anyone here seen a HAWK beacon anywhere in New York State yet? I have not seen any in the New York City metropolitan area including Long Island so far. Just wondering if NYSDOT or Nassau, Suffolk, or Westchester Counties have installed any yet. Thanks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns9I2ZlOszI

[Big John]

Hmmm, never seen such skinny strips of reflective tape before. In MA, we always use alot.

MUTCD allows the yellow borders to be 1-3 inches wide.

[SignBridge]

Good example Jakeroot. Maybe Wash. DOT should issue binoculars to all drivers.

And thanks Amtrakprod for that video. They said it's the first in the state? Interesting. Looks like a NYSDOT installation. I see on the map, Sheridan Dr. is a State road. Be interesting to see if NYSDOT starts putting them up elsewhere in the state in the near future.

[vdeane]

There are a few in Williamsville too.  A picture of one was posted to the NYSDOT IntraDOT announcements yesterday or Thursday.

[ErmineNotyours]

SignBridge, here's another supplemental HAWK sign in Washington with an indecipherable legend:

Just a few blocks from my work.

"Stop on red" is easy enough.  The small lettering is mostly for those already stopped at the light, telling them they can go if it is flashing and the crosswalk is clear.

[US 89]

A similar sign is used at HAWKs in Utah, and I feel it's more readable than the one in Washington:

https://goo.gl/maps/Nhu6WFuD39G2

[jakeroot]

Crappy signage got me thinking...symbols to the rescue. Is this clearer?

[Tonytone]

Crappy signage got me thinking...symbols to the rescue. Is this clearer?

Why don't you work for dot again?


iPhone

[jakeroot]

Why don't you work for dot again?

Regulations make me want to tear my hair out. I'd have to work for a giant city that could flip the bird at the FHWA whenever it wanted.

I also mocked that up in about 10 minutes (concept to finish) so I'm sure there's room for improvement.

[SignBridge]

Jakeroot, your concept isn't bad, but you don't want to post anything that looks like a stop sign at the same location with a signal. That would create confusion and a legal conflict.

And ErmineNotyours, anyone with less than perfect 20/20 vision may not be able to read that fine print even from the stop line. I can't believe that any professional traffic engineer would think this was reasonable.

[jakeroot]

Jakeroot, your concept isn't bad, but you don't want to post anything that looks like a stop sign at the same location with a signal. That would create confusion and a legal conflict.

I see lots of signs posted at signals with "stop for/yield to pedestrians/cyclists", with the stop/yield being a symbol of the actual sign. Plenty of precedent so I doubt that's an issue.

[SignBridge]

Hmmm..........you're right jakeroot. Looks like I was a little hasty in my above comment. Looking at the Manual, I see those signs you're talking about that incorporate the stop or yield sign symbol. I stand corrected. 

[jakeroot]

Hmmm..........you're right jakeroot. Looks like I was a little hasty in my above comment. Looking at the Manual, I see those signs you're talking about that incorporate the stop or yield sign symbol. I stand corrected. 

In fairness, you're not crazy for thinking the way you do. I only use the symbols in my proposed signs because I've seen them used on real life signs. Otherwise I wouldnt since legally it seems odd.

[Amtrakprod]

Crappy signage got me thinking...symbols to the rescue. Is this clearer?

I like it, but the stop sign makes it seem like you may proceed after a stop.

[jakeroot]

Crappy signage got me thinking...symbols to the rescue. Is this clearer?

https://i.imgur.com/tLWAoIS.png

I like it, but the stop sign makes it seem like you may proceed after a stop.

That's a decent point, actually. I'll keep that in mind!

[Amtrakprod]

Crappy signage got me thinking...symbols to the rescue. Is this clearer?

https://i.imgur.com/tLWAoIS.png

I like it, but the stop sign makes it seem like you may proceed after a stop.

That's a decent point, actually. I'll keep that in mind!

Anytime, I would keep the Stop Sign on the other side, but on the solid red, I'd say Stop in words.

[jakeroot]

I would keep the Stop Sign on the other side, but on the solid red, I'd say Stop in words.

So I deleted the stop sign on the left, but rather than use "STOP" on the sign twice, in two different contexts, I used "do not proceed".

I also changed the signal display on the right to reflect that the top orbs could display either red or nothing.





I do wonder if it might not just be easier to use blankout signs that show this symbol during the solid red phase:

[Amtrakprod]

I would keep the Stop Sign on the other side, but on the solid red, I'd say Stop in words.

So I deleted the stop sign on the left, but rather than use "STOP" on the sign twice, in two different contexts, I used "do not proceed".

I also changed the signal display on the right to reflect that the top orbs could display either red or nothing.





I do wonder if it might not just be easier to use blankout signs that show this symbol during the solid red phase:

I designed a sign, my first sign I've designed, thoughts?
Crosswalk HAWK sign by Petru Sofio, on Flickr
Note: I haven't found a better font yet.

[kphoger]

I also changed the signal display on the right to reflect that the top orbs could display either red or nothing.

Wait, what?  Are you wanting drivers to stop when the top orbs are dark?

[Tonytone]

I also changed the signal display on the right to reflect that the top orbs could display either red or nothing.

Wait, what?  Are you wanting drivers to stop when the top orbs are dark?

I would assume, that a driver would only Stop on "dark orbs"  if a pedestrian was walking & it turned off, or they just walked across without pushing a button. Which I have seen someone do with these systems.


iPhone

[jakeroot]

I designed a sign, my first sign I've designed, thoughts?
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4804/45963183811_316785472e_c.jpg
Note: I haven't found a better font yet.

Very nice! I like the symbols. Roadgeek 2005 (all the road sign fonts and weights) can be downloaded here: https://www.fontspace.com/michael-d-adams/roadgeek-2005

I also changed the signal display on the right to reflect that the top orbs could display either red or nothing.

https://i.imgur.com/y0aTnZ5.png

Wait, what?  Are you wanting drivers to stop when the top orbs are dark?

The half red/half black symbols are meant to indicate that those two faces flash between red and dark. My original design might be better, but I didn't want to give the impression that only one side of the HAWK flashes red.