Span Wire Vs Mast Arm

[traffic light guy]

I've always been more of a mast-arm man myself

[Amtrakprod]

Do you have a reason?

[cjk374]

I grew up with span wire. Slowly all of these wires are being replaced with mast arms. Arms do clean up the looks of downtown areas full of electric wires criss crossing everywhere.

[traffic light guy]

Do you have a reason?

Mast-arms have been the DOT standard in my state for the past 50 years. I've grown so used to them.

LG-M327

[Amtrakprod]

Look at this perminate span wire in IL https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6540877,-89.6505699,3a,75y,266.99h,83.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srII3z0ZXkJ6Cn7dgJjuEsg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[plain]

Look at this perminate span wire in IL https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6540877,-89.6505699,3a,75y,266.99h,83.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srII3z0ZXkJ6Cn7dgJjuEsg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Nice.

The very first time I visited Chicago (1994 as a teen), there were a lot of wire spans in its suburbs (I've never seen any in the city itself). Every visit after that it became less and less common, even statewide. I actually thought none existed nowadays.

Also interesting in your link is that sign hanging in between the signals.

I'm a mast arm type of dude, but I'm not mad at this, it's not sloppy. I am frowning upon those wooden poles though, but its in a city so it's understandable.

[Amtrakprod]

Look at this perminate span wire in IL https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6540877,-89.6505699,3a,75y,266.99h,83.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srII3z0ZXkJ6Cn7dgJjuEsg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Nice.

The very first time I visited Chicago (1994 as a teen), there were a lot of wire spans in its suburbs (I've never seen any in the city itself). Every visit after that it became less and less common, even statewide. I actually thought none existed nowadays.

Also interesting in your link is that sign hanging in between the signals.

I'm a mast arm type of dude, but I'm not mad at this, it's not sloppy. I am frowning upon those wooden poles though, but its in a city so it's understandable.

I prefer mast arms myself, but I have to say I'm not sure how well they would work here. I really don't like the louvers for the opposing direction especially because the signals could tilt. I think for complex intersections like this mast arms are the win. Also, in total, I have to say that Programmable signals are much better than louvers in most situations. I still find it interesting that I found it. IL is a great place for traffic lights, I'm yet to find a terrible intersection. In my other form we are thinking of making IL number 1. Just if they had some more FYAs maybe. Nevada will likely win instead because of that. But my first choice will likely be IL.

[ilpt4u]

Look at this perminate span wire in IL https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6540877,-89.6505699,3a,75y,266.99h,83.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srII3z0ZXkJ6Cn7dgJjuEsg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I thought that one looked familiar...right off I-474 in Bartonville, IL near Peoria

There are a few scattered around the state. This one is from the Southern part of the state in Du Quoin, along US 51 (I have posted it previously in another thread):
https://goo.gl/maps/ksGigsvhQ7GcWQbW9

They are odd looking, simply because IL is pretty committed to Mast Arms

[Roadwarriors79]

Mast arm signals please. Span wire signals are best used for construction zones and other temporary installations.

[Truvelo]

Living in a country where we only have mast arm and pole mounted signal heads I have selected span wire as that is a very traditional American type installation to us. When we have news reports of hurricanes and tornadoes they often show span wire signals blowing about in the wind.

[steviep24]

NYSDOT does both and sometimes at the same intersection.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0927304,-77.6535081,3a,60y,351.14h,97.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSyvS4b1tAcIRkoTWWuaUQg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en&authuser=0

[Truvelo]

NYSDOT does both and sometimes at the same intersection.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0927304,-77.6535081,3a,60y,351.14h,97.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSyvS4b1tAcIRkoTWWuaUQg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en&authuser=0

Looking at the older imagery it was all span wire.

[RestrictOnTheHanger]

NYSDOT needs to clean up their mast arm installs, a bunch of them have brackets that stick up or arms that are too long. R10 (Long Island) doesnt seem to install a lot of mast arms, more like monopoles or Nassau county style arms, but even those come out sloppy occasionally.

NYSDOT span wire installs are much cleaner IMO

Also, did anyone notice that one of the signals is actually a right turn FYA with a red ball? Never seen one in person.

[mrsman]

NYSDOT needs to clean up their mast arm installs, a bunch of them have brackets that stick up or arms that are too long. R10 (Long Island) doesnt seem to install a lot of mast arms, more like monopoles or Nassau county style arms, but even those come out sloppy occasionally.

NYSDOT span wire installs are much cleaner IMO

Also, did anyone notice that one of the signals is actually a right turn FYA with a red ball? Never seen one in person.

This is a relatively unique signal, but I'm familiar with another one in California.  It is unusual here, since this doesn't seem like an area with lots of pedestrian crossing, which is usually the reason for a right turn FYA.

The essence of this signal is that the right turns are controlled by this signal phase only, independent of the other signals that are showing.

Red ball - thru traffic must stop, but right turns are allowed after stop.  Yield to cross-traffic and cross-traffic pedestrians.  This light will be red at all times that the thru signals are red and (perhaps) even for a few seconds after thru signals get green to allow for a leading pedestrian interval (LPI).  The LPI is not perfect, since right turns are permitted on red in this jurisdiction.  (Many right turn FYAs have red arrow which effectively creates a no turn on red situation.)

Yellow arrow - signifies the clearance phase after a sold green arrow or a flashing yellow arrow

Flashing yellow arrow - denotes that right turns have to yield to pedestrians.  It is likely that this is only shown while adjacent thru traffic has green light and when the peds have pushed the button.

Green arrow - denotes protected right turn.  This will show when the corresponding left (cross-street) is a green arrow.  This may also show when adjacent thru has a green light and the peds have not pushed the button to cross.

Right turn FYA at Venice Blvd and Robertson, Los Angeles, CA:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0282171,-118.3902918,3a,75y,354.93h,78.28t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s14_6FrmqaMIEnE9acN1kRQ!2e0!5s20190401T000000!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e3

[Mark68]

Mast arm
Backplates
Pole-mounted supplementals

Aesthetics and safety. It's also what I'm used to, having grown up in California (and living in Denver Metro now).

Also, FWIW, I prefer LED lighting on street lights and mast arm-mounted LED street blades.

I think span wires are ugly and flimsy. Even the double-wired setups still wobble in any good wind gust.

[jakeroot]

NYSDOT needs to clean up their mast arm installs, a bunch of them have brackets that stick up or arms that are too long. R10 (Long Island) doesnt seem to install a lot of mast arms, more like monopoles or Nassau county style arms, but even those come out sloppy occasionally.

NYSDOT span wire installs are much cleaner IMO

Also, did anyone notice that one of the signals is actually a right turn FYA with a red ball? Never seen one in person.

This is a relatively unique signal, but I'm familiar with another one in California.  It is unusual here, since this doesn't seem like an area with lots of pedestrian crossing, which is usually the reason for a right turn FYA.

The essence of this signal is that the right turns are controlled by this signal phase only, independent of the other signals that are showing.

...

Right turn FYA at Venice Blvd and Robertson, Los Angeles, CA:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0282171,-118.3902918,3a,75y,354.93h,78.28t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s14_6FrmqaMIEnE9acN1kRQ!2e0!5s20190401T000000!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e3

Washington State is weird in that, although turning against a red arrow is allowed, many of the right-facing flashing yellow arrows (for pedestrian protection) do use red orbs.

Here is an example in Auburn, installed within the last two years: https://goo.gl/maps/vtJFUKvhRA8cVhAb9

Couple of theories as to why this choice was made:

1) Operationally, there is no benefit to using a red arrow; to reduce the chance that drivers interpret the red arrow as "NTOR", an orb was used instead.
2) Left turns have a red arrow "lockout" during the walk phase. If drivers behind tall vehicles could only see the pole-mounted signals, and only see red arrows, they may falsely assume the through signal is green (especially if the other direction has an advanced left turn, and opposing through traffic was proceeding).

[kphoger]

Operationally, there is no benefit to using a red arrow; to reduce the chance that drivers interpret the red arrow as "NTOR" ...

I had never thought about that, but you're right.  At least, in states that allow right turn on red arrow, that is.

[jakeroot]

Operationally, there is no benefit to using a red arrow; to reduce the chance that drivers interpret the red arrow as "NTOR" ...

I had never thought about that, but you're right.  At least, in states that allow right turn on red arrow, that is.

I've noticed more "disobedience" of red arrows around here lately. Meaning, quite a few people who wait for the green arrow. I don't know if this is the result of new residents who are not used to WA's more liberal turn-on-red laws, or what. But I appreciate red orbs now more than ever, because I do get tired of waiting for a green arrow when it's not necessary.

This in mind, I am not in favor of changing the law to make turns against red arrows illegal. Changing the law would make many regular right turns, many of which still use red arrows, and many left turns onto one-way streets, effective NTOR situations. This would make turning left onto a freeway on-ramp illegal on a red arrow, something I do quite often (jump to 0:27 and/or 0:46). My preference continues to be either a blanket NTOR law, or signs where necessary.

[steviep24]

NYSDOT needs to clean up their mast arm installs, a bunch of them have brackets that stick up or arms that are too long. R10 (Long Island) doesnt seem to install a lot of mast arms, more like monopoles or Nassau county style arms, but even those come out sloppy occasionally.

NYSDOT span wire installs are much cleaner IMO

Also, did anyone notice that one of the signals is actually a right turn FYA with a red ball? Never seen one in person.

This is a relatively unique signal, but I'm familiar with another one in California.  It is unusual here, since this doesn't seem like an area with lots of pedestrian crossing, which is usually the reason for a right turn FYA.

The essence of this signal is that the right turns are controlled by this signal phase only, independent of the other signals that are showing.

...

Right turn FYA at Venice Blvd and Robertson, Los Angeles, CA:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0282171,-118.3902918,3a,75y,354.93h,78.28t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s14_6FrmqaMIEnE9acN1kRQ!2e0!5s20190401T000000!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e3

Washington State is weird in that, although turning against a red arrow is allowed, many of the right-facing flashing yellow arrows (for pedestrian protection) do use red orbs.

Here is an example in Auburn, installed within the last two years: https://goo.gl/maps/vtJFUKvhRA8cVhAb9

Couple of theories as to why this choice was made:

1) Operationally, there is no benefit to using a red arrow; to reduce the chance that drivers interpret the red arrow as "NTOR", an orb was used instead.
2) Left turns have a red arrow "lockout" during the walk phase. If drivers behind tall vehicles could only see the pole-mounted signals, and only see red arrows, they may falsely assume the through signal is green (especially if the other direction has an advanced left turn, and opposing through traffic was proceeding).

New York doesn't allow RTOR at a red arrow so hence the red orb on that signal.

[jakeroot]

New York doesn't allow RTOR at a red arrow so hence the red orb on that signal.

Which signal? The ones in my example are in Washington State.

[mrsman]

New York doesn't allow RTOR at a red arrow so hence the red orb on that signal.

Which signal? The ones in my example are in Washington State.

This one:

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0928517,-77.6535742,3a,75y,231.05h,80.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sN_USY3UNwFWnLP8P-jojLA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en&authuser=0

For NY (outside of NYC) and CA right turns permitted on red orb after stop.  Right turns not permitted at all on red arrow.

I would assume that in both NY and CA (and probably WA as well) a flashing red arrow would also have the meaning of right turn permitted after stop, assuming you yield to whatever traffic actually has the right of way.  Curious as to why red orb is used instead of flashing red arrow.

In the L.A. example from above at Venice/Robertson, I can tell you that there is also a "right turn signal" sign.  This is because for parts of the signal cycle this red orb is lit, even though the through signal cycle has a straight green arrow.  This produces the lead pedestrian interval, right turn cannot simply go even though straight traffic can go.  Right turns must stop and yield (to pedestrians).  After a few seconds, they get a FYA - no need to stop on right turns, but must still yield to pedestrians who are now in the street for a while.  Then a solid yellow arrow to show that the right turn signal is ending and then a red ball again.

What I'm not sure about is what happens next.  I believe that the next phase of the signal is the left from Venice to Robertson [NO U TURN], which will produce a right green arrow as this is a complementary turn.  But I'm not sure is whether during this phase, the red orb is lit or not.  While it is common for many 5 aspect signals to have red orb with green right arrow, since this signal is meant to only control the right turn, I would think that the red orb with green arrow would be contradictory.  Regardless, a yellow arrow would follow green arrow and then back to red orb.

But what is important to point out is that in this case the red orb of the right turn signal is not always lit at the same times as the red orb of the thru signal.  Thru has red during the right turn protected phase.  RIght turns have red during the LPI.  When Venice has green, both thru and right signals facing Robertson have red orb.  I don't know if that's the case with the NY or WA signals, or whether the red orb is just meant, as Jake said, to provide another signal in case it's blocked by a truck.  In the WA and NY cases, there is no "right turn signal" sign.

I don't know if something like this is legal under the MUTCD - to have two separately timed red orb signals facing the same traffic.  I know there is a big push to get rid of "left turn signal" red orbs in places like VA and PA and replace those with red left arrows.  I don't know if the same exists with regard to these right turn signals.

[Michael]

NYSDOT needs to clean up their mast arm installs, a bunch of them have brackets that stick up or arms that are too long. R10 (Long Island) doesnt seem to install a lot of mast arms, more like monopoles or Nassau county style arms, but even those come out sloppy occasionally.

NYSDOT span wire installs are much cleaner IMO

Also, did anyone notice that one of the signals is actually a right turn FYA with a red ball? Never seen one in person.

I've noticed that since 2012 or so, NYSDOT has started replacing a lot of signals, many of them being converted to mast arms.  I have no idea why the conversion is necessary, but many of them have been sloppy like you mentioned.  The first intersection I noticed this at was Washington St and the Arterial in Auburn.  Compare the old signals to the new ones.  Even though the older imagery appears to have brackets that are too long, they seemed shorter in person.  Even if I'm not remembering correctly, I can say that the new signals weren't level with each other and some were crooked when they were installed.

[Revive 755]

I don't know if something like this is legal under the MUTCD - to have two separately timed red orb signals facing the same traffic.  I know there is a big push to get rid of "left turn signal" red orbs in places like VA and PA and replace those with red left arrows.  I don't know if the same exists with regard to these right turn signals.

It's allowed for right turn signals if "[a] RIGHT TURN SIGNAL (R10-10) sign (see Sections 4D.21 through 4D.24) is mounted adjacent to the signal face(s) controlling the right-turning movement." (4D.05 Paragraph 11 Item B).

[mrsman]

I don't know if something like this is legal under the MUTCD - to have two separately timed red orb signals facing the same traffic.  I know there is a big push to get rid of "left turn signal" red orbs in places like VA and PA and replace those with red left arrows.  I don't know if the same exists with regard to these right turn signals.

It's allowed for right turn signals if "[a] RIGHT TURN SIGNAL (R10-10) sign (see Sections 4D.21 through 4D.24) is mounted adjacent to the signal face(s) controlling the right-turning movement." (4D.05 Paragraph 11 Item B).

Thanks for that.  In fact, there is a clear right turn signal sign at the Venice/Robertson signal.  On top of that, the thru signal has a green straight arrow.  That is a "hint" that the thru signal only controls thru movements and that turns are either controlled by other signals or are prohibited.

[jakeroot]

But what is important to point out is that in this case the red orb of the right turn signal is not always lit at the same times as the red orb of the thru signal.  Thru has red during the right turn protected phase.  RIght turns have red during the LPI.  When Venice has green, both thru and right signals facing Robertson have red orb.  I don't know if that's the case with the NY or WA signals, or whether the red orb is just meant, as Jake said, to provide another signal in case it's blocked by a truck.  In the WA and NY cases, there is no "right turn signal" sign.

I don't know if something like this is legal under the MUTCD - to have two separately timed red orb signals facing the same traffic.  I know there is a big push to get rid of "left turn signal" red orbs in places like VA and PA and replace those with red left arrows.  I don't know if the same exists with regard to these right turn signals.

(sorry to clip a bunch of your post -- trying to cut down on post length to avoid "tl;dr")

Right-turn leading pedestrian intervals (LPIs) are pretty common in Seattle, but very rare (totally unheard of?) elsewhere in WA. The right-facing flashing yellow arrow signals that I see on a regular basis in cities like Auburn, Federal Way, or Bellevue (all WA) do not use leading pedestrian intervals. The FYA comes up immediately with the through signal, often times even when the pedestrian walk sign is in a steady "don't walk" phase. The right-facing FYAs are there simply to aid pedestrian visibility, not to incorporate smarter features like LPIs. In the Auburn examples I posted above, a red orb was used. I 100% guarantee you that a red arrow would have been used if there was an LPI ("...TURN SIGNAL" signs are exceedingly rare in WA).

This is contrary to many of the left turn FYA installations in WA, which not only incorporate leading pedestrian intervals, but often incorporate red arrows throughout the entire WALK phase. This was pioneered in Bellevue and has crept into surrounding areas (and has been adopted by Pierce County entirely, which encompasses almost the entirety of the metro area south of Seattle). These do not work on timed corridors, which are very common in Federal Way, as the walk sign is on for the entire length of the through signals (not allowing any time for a permissive phase). This is probably why I only see these installations in non-timed areas, or in areas where the WALK sign is automatic, but only lasts for about 10-12 seconds.

Normally, not a fan of these. I've had them last the entire length of the through signal before, which is extremely annoying. But places like Puyallup (WA) have actually managed to incorporate some smart features into them. Many of the left turn signals will lag when the pedestrian signal is activated. Through traffic and peds go first. By the time gaps start to develop in through traffic, the FYA activates, and drivers can start turning. Then the green arrow comes up. Not bad, but they're not always that smart. You can sort of see one in action here. Note that there are no cars waiting, but the green arrow has activated. If you spin the camera around, you can see all the cars that just went through while the red arrow, and then FYA, were active.