HAWK at a fire station

[Amtrakprod]

(Now that I remember this being something I really drove past, and not a dream...)
This isn't approved by the FHWA, is it?
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=28.378412,-81.51863&spn=0.008609,0.016512&gl=us&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=28.378288,-81.518587&panoid=DfR-DAQWl1lysZr-zVQQdA&cbp=12,358.77,,0,-4.91

It's allowed: Screen Shot 2018-11-13 at 8.48.27 PM by Petru Sofio, on Flickr

[SignBridge]

Okay, found it. The Manual has an exception to the rule cited above by MNHighwayman re: Ramp Metering Signals. Sec. 4I.02.07 states: Ramp signal controls may be placed in dark mode (no indications displayed) when not in use.

Similarly, in the section re: Emergency Vehicle Hybrid Beacons, Sec. 4G.04.05, it says: Emergency Vehicle Hybrid Beacons shall be placed in dark mode (no indications displayed) during periods between actuations. 

And another exception exists for Pedestrian Hybrid Beacons, in Sec. 4F.03.01.

So I guess that settles that for better or worse. But how is the average driver supposed to know all this?

[MNHighwayMan]

So I guess that settles that for better or worse. But how is the average driver supposed to know all this?

They're not, which is why the inconsistency is a problem.

[jakeroot]

So I guess that settles that for better or worse. But how is the average driver supposed to know all this?

They're not, which is why the inconsistency is a problem.

What's worse, the FHWA allows this exception, but states don't bother to carve out an exception in their law books (perhaps ... read below).

For example, Revised Code of WA (RCW) statute 46.61.183 states that "Except when directed to proceed by a flagger, police officer, or firefighter, the driver of a vehicle approaching an intersection controlled by a traffic control signal that is ... not displaying any green, red, or yellow indication to the approach the vehicle is on, shall consider the intersection to be an all-way stop."

So, maybe it's the "intersection" bit of the law that allows HAWKs and meters to bypass the rule, as they aren't placed at intersections.

[roadfro]

So I guess that settles that for better or worse. But how is the average driver supposed to know all this?

They're not, which is why the inconsistency is a problem.

What's worse, the FHWA allows this exception, but states don't bother to carve out an exception in their law books (perhaps ... read below).

For example, Revised Code of WA (RCW) statute 46.61.183 states that "Except when directed to proceed by a flagger, police officer, or firefighter, the driver of a vehicle approaching an intersection controlled by a traffic control signal that is ... not displaying any green, red, or yellow indication to the approach the vehicle is on, shall consider the intersection to be an all-way stop."

So, maybe it's the "intersection" bit of the law that allows HAWKs and meters to bypass the rule, as they aren't placed at intersections.

Note that the HAWK-style signals are actually considered beacons as far as the MUTCD is concerned ("Pedestrian Hybrid Beacon" and "Emergency Vehicle Hybrid Beacon" are the official terms). While beacons, by MUTCD definition, are still considered a type of signal, they are operationally different from regular traffic signals. I think this is part of the distinction that allows them to be dark when not in use.

(Not that I'm defending these... I don't like them, don't think most drivers understand what to do when encountering them, and would prefer to see a traditional style signal.)

I'd also agree with the assessment that the "intersection" factor comes in to play here as well, which allows the driver to proceed through dark pedestrian/emergency beacons or ramp meters. (Although, some jurisdictions have placed the pedestrian beacons at crosswalks located at a minor side street intersection, so then what happens...?!?)

[SignBridge]

(Although, some jurisdictions have placed the pedestrian beacons at crosswalks located at a minor side street intersection, so then what happens...?!?)[/quote]

That is the case with the installation I cited earlier on S.R. 27 in Iselin, New Jersey at the Metropark Rail station. There are (too) small signs posted with the message: "Crosswalk, Stop On Red (ball)"

[jakeroot]

Note that the HAWK-style signals are actually considered beacons as far as the MUTCD is concerned ("Pedestrian Hybrid Beacon" and "Emergency Vehicle Hybrid Beacon" are the official terms). While beacons, by MUTCD definition, are still considered a type of signal, they are operationally different from regular traffic signals. I think this is part of the distinction that allows them to be dark when not in use.

That reminds me. The MUTCD's Interim Approval for Use of Retroreflective Border on Signal Backplates does not carve out exceptions for when the border should not be applied. HAWKs and ramp meters don't need them as they are normally dark anyways (no need to call further attention to them), and single-face beacons are typically accompanied by signage or markings that spell out rules when no flashing is occurring.

Here's a couple examples, from WA, of signals that have had reflective tape unnecessarily applied. WSDOT seems to have an exception for ramp meters, as this is one of only a very few with the border, but it would better if the FHWA specifically ruled them out to reduce the chance of it being incorrectly applied in the future, especially as the rule is likely to be implemented into the future MUTCD:

[roadfro]

That reminds me. The MUTCD's Interim Approval for Use of Retroreflective Border on Signal Backplates does not carve out exceptions for when the border should not be applied. HAWKs and ramp meters don't need them as they are normally dark anyways (no need to call further attention to them), and single-face beacons are typically accompanied by signage or markings that spell out rules when no flashing is occurring.

Here's a couple examples, from WA, of signals that have had reflective tape unnecessarily applied. WSDOT seems to have an exception for ramp meters, as this is one of only a very few with the border, but it would better if the FHWA specifically ruled them out to reduce the chance of it being incorrectly applied in the future, especially as the rule is likely to be implemented into the future MUTCD:

That interim approval was terminated because the 'backplate yellow reflective border' option was added to the 2009 MUTCD (at Section 4D.12 paragraph 21). Based on other statements in the MUTCD about design of beacons & ramp meters, it can be implied the border option also extends to these devices.

I have yet to see a hybrid beacon in Nevada (we really like our RRFB's at unsignalized crosswalks), but NDOT has added yellow borders to all our ramp meters in the Reno area.

[US 89]

In Utah, UDOT and Salt Lake City have been very proactive about adding reflective tape to nearly all signals, and ramp meters and HAWKs are no exception.

Utah loves HAWKs, by the way. Downtown Salt Lake is full of them, and UDOT is installing them in several other areas as well. Usually they replace a yellow flashing beacon or an RRFB.

[webny99]

In my part of NY, I would absolutely say the majority of drivers do not know you're supposed to stop for a dark signal; and in my experience in power outages around 80% of cars will blow through if they feel like they're on the major road (of course major and minor road can be subjective). It's pathetic how poorly trained the drivers are in this country.

Yeah, it's atrocious.  I remember one time I had to make a left turn on a four lane road with heavy traffic when the power was out.  Literally nobody was stopping, so after a couple minutes I had to just go, horn blaring and praying that people would actually stop rather than hit me.

I think it kind of depends. More often than not, at least when the power is out, people will treat it as a four-way stop. I have seen this most often at intersections where each road is only two lanes; can't recall a specific incident at a four/lane two lane scenario, so that might be a part of it. But at T-intersections, people are probably pretty likely to blow through if they are on the main road.

[jeffandnicole]

In my part of NY, I would absolutely say the majority of drivers do not know you're supposed to stop for a dark signal; and in my experience in power outages around 80% of cars will blow through if they feel like they're on the major road (of course major and minor road can be subjective). It's pathetic how poorly trained the drivers are in this country.

Yeah, it's atrocious.  I remember one time I had to make a left turn on a four lane road with heavy traffic when the power was out.  Literally nobody was stopping, so after a couple minutes I had to just go, horn blaring and praying that people would actually stop rather than hit me.

I think it kind of depends. More often than not, at least when the power is out, people will treat it as a four-way stop. I have seen this most often at intersections where each road is only two lanes; can't recall a specific incident at a four/lane two lane scenario, so that might be a part of it. But at T-intersections, people are probably pretty likely to blow through if they are on the main road.

I usually see the main roadway just goes, with the side street needing to cross when safe.

Another way is to simply make a right, then make a U-turn up the road a bit. 

Most people don't know the actual rule, and with more and more traffic lights having battery backups and more reliable electricity capabilities, intersections that are completely dark are pretty rare.  Same thing with railroad crossings: In my youth, train crossings with lights activated and gates down for no reason seemed to happen regularly.  You just looked, and if safe you went thru the crossing.  Now, people are totally confused as such a situation and will sit there forever.

[kphoger]

In my part of NY, I would absolutely say the majority of drivers do not know you're supposed to stop for a dark signal; and in my experience in power outages around 80% of cars will blow through if they feel like they're on the major road (of course major and minor road can be subjective). It's pathetic how poorly trained the drivers are in this country.

Yeah, it's atrocious.  I remember one time I had to make a left turn on a four lane road with heavy traffic when the power was out.  Literally nobody was stopping, so after a couple minutes I had to just go, horn blaring and praying that people would actually stop rather than hit me.

I think it kind of depends. More often than not, at least when the power is out, people will treat it as a four-way stop. I have seen this most often at intersections where each road is only two lanes; can't recall a specific incident at a four/lane two lane scenario, so that might be a part of it. But at T-intersections, people are probably pretty likely to blow through if they are on the main road.

I usually see the main roadway just goes, with the side street needing to cross when safe.

Another way is to simply make a right, then make a U-turn up the road a bit. 

Most people don't know the actual rule, and with more and more traffic lights having battery backups and more reliable electricity capabilities, intersections that are completely dark are pretty rare.  Same thing with railroad crossings: In my youth, train crossings with lights activated and gates down for no reason seemed to happen regularly.  You just looked, and if safe you went thru the crossing.  Now, people are totally confused as such a situation and will sit there forever.

In my limited experience with these situations, most people on the main road just sail through, but then it doesn't take too long for one or two drivers to realize they're supposed to stop and wait their turn.  Once they stop, other people follow suit until new traffic comes along who don't remember the rule and the phase starts all over again.

[UCFKnights]

In my part of NY, I would absolutely say the majority of drivers do not know you're supposed to stop for a dark signal; and in my experience in power outages around 80% of cars will blow through if they feel like they're on the major road (of course major and minor road can be subjective). It's pathetic how poorly trained the drivers are in this country.

Yeah, it's atrocious.  I remember one time I had to make a left turn on a four lane road with heavy traffic when the power was out.  Literally nobody was stopping, so after a couple minutes I had to just go, horn blaring and praying that people would actually stop rather than hit me.

I think it kind of depends. More often than not, at least when the power is out, people will treat it as a four-way stop. I have seen this most often at intersections where each road is only two lanes; can't recall a specific incident at a four/lane two lane scenario, so that might be a part of it. But at T-intersections, people are probably pretty likely to blow through if they are on the main road.

I usually see the main roadway just goes, with the side street needing to cross when safe.

Another way is to simply make a right, then make a U-turn up the road a bit. 

Most people don't know the actual rule, and with more and more traffic lights having battery backups and more reliable electricity capabilities, intersections that are completely dark are pretty rare.  Same thing with railroad crossings: In my youth, train crossings with lights activated and gates down for no reason seemed to happen regularly.  You just looked, and if safe you went thru the crossing.  Now, people are totally confused as such a situation and will sit there forever.

In my limited experience with these situations, most people on the main road just sail through, but then it doesn't take too long for one or two drivers to realize they're supposed to stop and wait their turn.  Once they stop, other people follow suit until new traffic comes along who don't remember the rule and the phase starts all over again.

To some extent, during mass power outages, that is also the reasonable thing to do, even if its not quite legal. Having been through a number of hurricanes which caused mass power outages for a week or 2 afterwards, it just isn't reasonable to treat an intersection with 6 lanes each direction (including turn lanes) as a 4 way stop, the efficiency is just so low that there would be severe backups with nobody going anywhere. Also so many people are just confused about who goes next each time a direction does stop (this at nearly all 4 way stops) I'm more likely to stop if there are few people around and its reasonable to stop, but on heavily trafficked roads, its far faster for everyone if I just go.

[SignBridge]

Jakeroot's above photo of a new HAWK installation is a good example of how bad some of these things are. First, I agree that there should not be reflective trim on HAWK backplates because at night they will fool a driver into thinking it's a power failure and they are supposed to stop.

And second that instructional sign between the two overhead lights can't even be read as you approach and barely even from the stop line as the legend is ridiculously small. I can't believe that sign meets any applicable standard. The people who design these devices are supposed to be professional engineers. A little common sense would go a long way!

[kphoger]

I have no problem with reflective tape on HAWK or ramp meter signals.  To me, the presence or absence of tape has zero influence on whether I think I'm required to stop at a dark signal or not.  Why is everyone assuming drivers will instinctively stop for dark signals with reflective tape but those same drivers will not instinctively stop for dark signals without it?

It's like you guys want HAWK and ramp meter signals to be as invisible as possible–essentially disappearing into the darkness of night after the sun goes down.  That's silly to me:  if a signal might activate at a moment's notice, don't you think it's advantageous for drivers to actually see there's even a signal head there to begin with before it lights up?

[jakeroot]

That reminds me. The MUTCD's Interim Approval for Use of Retroreflective Border on Signal Backplates does not carve out exceptions for when the border should not be applied.

That interim approval was terminated because the 'backplate yellow reflective border' option was added to the 2009 MUTCD (at Section 4D.12 paragraph 21). Based on other statements in the MUTCD about design of beacons & ramp meters, it can be implied the border option also extends to these devices.

I have yet to see a hybrid beacon in Nevada (we really like our RRFB's at unsignalized crosswalks), but NDOT has added yellow borders to all our ramp meters in the Reno area.

I had no idea that was in the MUTCD. Thanks for the info. I would agree that the relevant section extends the application to beacons (etc), but I was wondering if it was necessary.

Did not know that any agency was installing yellow borders around ramp meter signals. A few have slipped through in WA (WSDOT does not use them normally), but I didn't think it was normal anywhere. Based on some brief Street View research in states with lots of yellow border installs, GA seems to use them at ramp meters, UT and OR do not, BC did (only one and it was removed); I think that's all. Other states and agencies use meters but do not widely use reflective borders.

In Utah, UDOT and Salt Lake City have been very proactive about adding reflective tape to nearly all signals, and ramp meters and HAWKs are no exception.

I was going to ask for a link, but I finally found one (northbound 15 on-ramp from Timpanogos). Only one I could find, though.

[jakeroot]

Jakeroot's above photo of a new HAWK installation is a good example of how bad some of these things are. First, I agree that there should not be reflective trim on HAWK backplates because at night they will fool a driver into thinking it's a power failure and they are supposed to stop.

I agree. Though the reflective tape has several benefits, a key one does seem to be recognition when there's a power-failure at night, but this is not an issue at ramp meters as they are not supposed to be seen/recognized when dark. I see that another benefit of the retroreflective border is a reduction in rear-end collisions, as recognition of the traffic light was improved post-installation. But, I don't see how these are factors at ramp meters, as there's no clear danger to ignoring a ramp meter signal to begin with (chance of a driver slamming on the brakes because they did not see the light is obviously much lower at ramp meters).

And second that instructional sign between the two overhead lights can't even be read as you approach and barely even from the stop line as the legend is ridiculously small. I can't believe that sign meets any applicable standard. The people who design these devices are supposed to be professional engineers. A little common sense would go a long way!

I'm willing to accept the small signs, as there's a good chance you'd be reading it from only a couple dozen feet away at most. Ideally, however, they'll no longer be necessary once they become more common (as much as I wish that wouldn't be the case).

I have no problem with reflective tape on HAWK or ramp meter signals.  To me, the presence or absence of tape has zero influence on whether I think I'm required to stop at a dark signal or not.  Why is everyone assuming drivers will instinctively stop for dark signals with reflective tape but those same drivers will not instinctively stop for dark signals without it?

My problem is just that dark signals are allowed at all. I would rather a flashing green orb or flashing yellow orb were displayed at these part time signals. Pretty much every potential issue with dark signals would immediately vanish as there'd no longer be any!

It's like you guys want HAWK and ramp meter signals to be as invisible as possible–essentially disappearing into the darkness of night after the sun goes down.  That's silly to me:  if a signal might activate at a moment's notice, don't you think it's advantageous for drivers to actually see there's even a signal head there to begin with before it lights up?

Unlike HAWKs or ramp meters, traffic signals must be seen even when dark, as they become all-way stops. Serious safety issues could arise if drivers don't see the signals when they're dark. This is in stark contrast to ramp meters and HAWKs, where drivers are supposed to, effectively, ignore them when they're dark. Other benefits of the yellow border include reduced rear-end collisions, but my understanding is that studies were conducted at intersections with cross-traffic and 24/7 phasing, where signal recognition is always important. These are not issues at HAWKs or ramp meters, as there's no cross traffic that would ever have the right-of-way. That said, if a driver fails to see a HAWK's red display and hits a pedestrian, the argument could be made that a reflective border may have improved peripheral recognition. So, there is some benefit, maybe.

You do make another good point. If drivers don't go through a particular HAWK or ramp meter often, being able to see them and recognize their existence, even when dark, may come in handy the next time they go through one. But I would make the argument that the HAWK and ramp meter are still able to be seen without the yellow border.

[kphoger]

My problem is just that dark signals are allowed at all. I would rather a flashing green orb or flashing yellow orb were displayed at these part time signals. Pretty much every potential issue with dark signals would immediately vanish as there'd no longer be any!

Yes, there would still be dark signals, in the event of a power failure.  I still insist that nobody out there on the road would actually come to a stop just because a HAWK or ramp meter signal is dark.  Nobody.

Think about a crosswalk that uses a standard three-section stoplight, only turning red when a pedestrian pushes a button.  Are you trying to tell me people come to a complete stop at such a crosswalk when there's a power failure.  I don't think so!  Drivers know the difference between a light that controls an intersection and one that doesn't.

[US 89]

I was going to ask for a link, but I finally found one (northbound 15 on-ramp from Timpanogos). Only one I could find, though.

I guess they're not as common as I thought -- but really, the meters that don't have it is just because UDOT hasn't gotten around to them yet; they were put up before the reflective borders became a thing. The rule of thumb is that after around 2014, any new or replaced ramp meters will have reflective tape. These freeways have been recently reconstructed, so they all have the reflective backplates on the meters:

- I-15 between Timpanogos Highway and Bangerter Highway (reconstructed 2016)
- I-15 between Beck Street and Centerville (reconstructed 2015)
- I-215 southwest quadrant, between Redwood and SR-201 (reconstructed 2017)

[SignBridge]

kphoger, you must be a real optimist. You think many drivers can tell the difference between one kind of traffic signal and another? You're giving the ignorant public way too much credit. Remember the average driver is not like us with a background of observing this stuff for years. And most drivers have never seen the MUTCD and its rules. I think to most drivers a traffic light is a traffic light; period. But I hope I'm wrong and that your predictions are correct.

[SignBridge]

Has anyone here seen a HAWK beacon anywhere in New York State yet? I have not seen any in the New York City metropolitan area including Long Island so far. Just wondering if NYSDOT or Nassau, Suffolk, or Westchester Counties have installed any yet. Thanks.

[vdeane]

There are plenty in the Buffalo area.

[SignBridge]

vdeane, were they done by NYSDOT or local jurisdictions?

[kphoger]

kphoger, you must be a real optimist. You think many drivers can tell the difference between one kind of traffic signal and another? You're giving the ignorant public way too much credit. Remember the average driver is not like us with a background of observing this stuff for years. And most drivers have never seen the MUTCD and its rules. I think to most drivers a traffic light is a traffic light; period. But I hope I'm wrong and that your predictions are correct.

I think drivers can tell the difference between an intersection and a mid-block crosswalk.
I think drivers can tell the difference between an intersection and an on-ramp.

If you don't, then you must be a real pessimist.

[SignBridge]

You got that right kphoger!.......LOL  Based on years and years of driving experience including 40 years of driving emergency vehicles.

But even I would have to agree that many drivers probably can tell a ramp signal from an intersection signal.