2013 Wichita Road Meet, July 20

[hbelkins]

Any progress on setting a date yet? Need to try to plan days off for travel.

[J N Winkler]

At this stage I have no date preferences, so I will abide by the consensus.

In regard to road-related things to see in Wichita (and in addition to the sights mentioned upthread by US 71 and Kphoger):

*  I-235/13th Street flyover--Piers are currently being erected and fill has started to go up for the abutment at the 13th Street/Windmill Road end

*  Kellogg and West--Kansas' first SPUI, and a fairly unusual example of a "freeway over" SPUI (current plans call for this configuration to be retained when the I-235/Kellogg cloverleaf is upgraded to a stack/turban hybrid, though Kellogg will be widened over West Street)

*  The unusually wide rights-of-way for the I-135 service interchanges at 21st Street and 8th-9th Streets (21st Street was originally planned as a trumpet, and later built as a volleyball before it was reconstructed as a conventional diamond in a project linked with the revitalization of 21st Street east of I-135, which is a sort of main street for the black part of town; 8th-9th Streets was at one time planned as the eastern terminus of the cancelled Inner Loop freeway/western terminus of the boulevard-standard Northeast Diagonal)

*  The K-96 Northeast Freeway median barrier (possibly the first in Kansas?)

*  The Kellogg downtown flyover and the Main Street gateway sculpture (design chosen after the considerable controversy caused by an initial front-runner, consisting of paired stelae which were supposed to resemble wheat heads but were widely derided as "artichoke hearts")

*  Roundabouts on city streets in and around Riverside Park (the park and the surrounding neighborhoods, which were built around 1920, are one of Wichita's approximations of a picturesque garden suburb)

*  Cycling facilities (not just the bike path under the Canal Route, which was praised in a 1970's FHWA publication touting the forerunner of context-sensitive design, but also the bike path along the Big Arkansas River, and the bike lanes along First and Second Streets)

*  Broadway Avenue (former US 81) north of I-235 to Newton--possibly the first rural four-lane state highway in Kansas, and still a fairly unusual example of an undivided rural four-lane highway

*  Color wash treatments on newer freeway retaining walls (on Kellogg, these are at Maize, Tyler, Oliver, Woodlawn, and Rock; the western touchdown of the downtown flyover also has retaining walls but these are untreated, and still look reasonably good given Wichita's semiarid climate and lack of graffiti problems)

*  Cor-Ten bridges and volleyball configuration on the Kellogg/airport connector interchange

Some or all of these could be integrated into a one-hour driving tour.

In addition, there are some highway features in Wichita which could be examined as part of this visit, before they are obliterated by future construction projects.  I don't know what level of interest there would be in doing this because they are all pretty unremarkable in and of themselves, but here goes:

*  I-235/Kellogg cloverleaf (as noted above, scheduled for phased upgrade to a stack/turban hybrid)

*  Kellogg/Turnpike interchange (double-trumpet configuration will disappear; Kellogg frontage roads will be extended to and past intersections with a new Turnpike connector roadway)

KDOT also wants to do something with the Washington Street interchange and nearby railroad overpass on Kellogg.  The Wichita Area MPO (WAMPO) doesn't want any work done there, and it is unclear to me why KDOT does.  I don't think a construction project at this location, if it materializes, will form part of T-WORKS.  There is also the North Junction (north I-135/I-235 interchange), but any revision of its configuration will definitely not be part of T-WORKS; the only thing currently scheduled for it that I am aware of is an I-135 pavement and signing rehabilitation.  (One tentative plan I have seen calls for conversion to a stack/turban hybrid, with dedicated connector roadways for the K-96 through movement to ease transitions between the State Fair Freeway and Northeast Freeway segments.)

At the meet I could undertake to have copies of key historical planning documents, such as Patterns for Thorofares, the 1965 area transportation study, the Inner Loop DEIS, the Kellogg railroad overpass EA, etc. available for inspection.  (There is an environmental document of some sort for the Central Corridor railroad overpasses, which Kphoger mentioned upthread, but the copy of it that used to be in the basement of the Wichita Public Library seems to have disappeared.  I do not have a camera copy of it.)

In terms of general transportation features (not road-related), I believe the foyer of Wichita's old Union Station (which is now occupied by Cox) is open to the general public, and the old Wichita Municipal Airport--which at one time offered the best celebrity-spotting anywhere in the Midwest because coast-to-coast flights basically did not exist in the early propeller age and Wichita was one of the most popular stopover points--is now an aviation museum.  It is adjacent to McConnell AFB and in fact was base HQ for almost 40 years after the Air Force wrested it from the City of Wichita, but it can be reached easily without going through base security.  (I have visited it, and can recommend it, though the admission price is a rather steep $8.)  There is also the 20th and Piatt memorial.

[kphoger]

Any progress on setting a date yet? Need to try to plan days off for travel.

As I said, I'll be in town on and around July 20th.  Is anyone out there who's interested but unavailable then?

[hbelkins]

I'm pretty sure July 20 works for me. My wife is going to Iowa sometime the following week, so I need to find out exactly when she's leaving to know whether I can split the drive back home into two days or need to make a power run on Sunday.

[US71]

Any progress on setting a date yet? Need to try to plan days off for travel.

As I said, I'll be in town on and around July 20th.  Is anyone out there who's interested but unavailable then?

20th should work.

[corco]

20th is a good possibility. I know my boss is going to be out of town at a training the following week though...not sure if we're both allowed to be gone at once, but if it were only a day (the 22nd), I don't see why that would be a problem.

[route56]

Looks like July 20th is a winner for potential turnout. I say we've got a date.

Time for phase 2: where to meet for lunch.

[kphoger]

Should be easy.  Those attending:  what are your top three picks for cuisine or type of restaurant?

[corco]

What's Wichita known for food wise? Whatever that is would be my top pick

Are we firm enough on this that I can request time off? I'm 100% to go, but don't want to take those days off unless there's going to be a meet, and probably don't want to wait more than another week to put the request in.

[J N Winkler]

What's Wichita known for food wise? Whatever that is would be my top pick

Lots of things, actually--we have quite a few good Middle Eastern restaurants (many Wichitans are descended from Lebanese and Syrian immigrants), Le Monde and Bella Luna coming to mind; Taquería El Paisa makes tacos al pastor that are to die for; Knolla's Pizza blows the usual chain offerings out of the water; Golden Bay has very good sushi and California/Japanese fusion; there is now a new Greek restaurant at Pawnee and Meridian whose Greek salad, though not strictly authentic, is quite good; DeFazio's is the traditional go-to restaurant for Italian food and is justly famous for its chicken piccata, but Bella Vita has very good lunch sandwiches and its linguine puttanesca (part of the dinner menu) is absolutely delicious; etc.

These are all sit-down restaurants that one goes to for the food, however, and are not really ideal venues for a roadgeek meet.  Most of the national chains (Applebee's, TGI Fridays, etc.) have at least one outlet in Wichita.  If the preference is for a locally based chain, I understand Spangles can usually be relied on for general American cuisine.  (I haven't been there for at least 20 years, so I cannot speak from experience.)  NuWay, another local chain, is famous for its boiled-beef burgers, but operates on a fast-food basis, and since the burgers are fairly greasy, this is far from an ideal venue for a meeting where collectible paper (road maps, etc.) is likely to be handled.

White Castle got its start in Wichita but has not had an outlet in town for more than 50 years.  The gourmet grocers Dean and DeLuca apparently have their world HQ in Wichita, but not even one store in town, the nearest being in Leawood--and if it were not for that, the nearest would be in Washington, DC (!).

[corco]

Okay, very cool. I'm open to anything, honestly. I'm not picky and the way I've got this trip planned out I'll be able to eat at Runza, Steak 'n Shake, In-n-Out, Chick-fil-A, and Blake's Lotaburger, so I'm in food heaven already.

[hbelkins]

Needs to be someplace with seating for the anticipated crowd, first and foremost. My preference is for standard grub; I don't do well with Japanese (sushi = blech) or other ethnic fare. Never heard of Spangles, but most people prefer regional or local places to chain places (Applebee's, etc.) for meets.

Of course a steakhouse is always a good choice.

[apeman33]

Spangles is sort of one step above McDonalds or Burger King but they are willing to try different things. They sell pitas, for one thing, and have sold gyros (I don't know if they still do). It's sort of an attempt to be a gourmet burger joint, usually pop-culture themed (rock-and-roll, mostly). It was the first place I remember having a "Western Burger", the type of burger that had BBQ sauce and onion rings/onion straws.

One of the things that stands out to me about Wichita when I visit friends there is that Wichitans love go to out to eat. Just about any restaurant on a given Friday or Saturday night is packed.

[kphoger]

Honestly, there are few outstanding restaurants that don't get up there in price.  J N Winkler mentioned some, but I certainly wouldn't put them (the ones I've been to) in the "if you come to Wichita, you simply must eat here" category.

CUISINE

Just about any random pizza joint in Chicago beats even the best pizza in Wichita; Knolla's, as mentioned, is pretty good, but I haven't actually been inside one to know what seating is like.

Mexican food is definitely hit or miss here, and I've been told by Mexicans that the best is actually sold from taco trucks; my go-to pick is Playa Azul in Old Town (most things there are great, while a few are average), but I haven't been to the taquería J N Winkler mentioned.

We do have a few middle eastern restaurants, as noted, but that cuisine isn't for everyone; I like it just fine, and either one of the two J N Winkler mentioned are good.  I live just a block and a half from the N&J Café, which is also decent.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is Vietnamese food.  I've only been to one or two places, and would recommend Little Saigon on north Broadway for phở.  Vietnamese food is definitely not for everybody, though, and their non-Vietnamese food isn't even worth buying.

FAST FOOD

I'd say NuWay is definitely one of the local favorites; the Eagles even buy out the original location for themselves when they come through town, since Joe Walsh is originally from here.  It is fast food, though (as is Dog n Shake, another local favorite), so might not be ideal.  Seating also might not be the best, depending on how busy it is, and I personally think it's OK but overrated.

Chick-fil-A recently "moved in" to town (there already was one, but nobody knew about it), but is pretty much always packed.  Definitely not a good choice for a group.

The downtown Spangles is good for seating a group, and is a local favorite; while I wouldn't say it's only one step above McDonald's, I'd say it's still probably just two steps above Wendy's, and a few steps below Steak n Shake (which is not in Wichita).

OTHER CHAINS

As far as chains go, my wife and I often go to Granite City Food & Brewery.  It's not the cheapest, but has good American-style fare, as well as local brews and a decent atmosphere.

[corco]

Of what you've listed, I would probably vote for Granite City if the venue is sufficient for seating a roadmeet (assuming if by not the cheapest you're talking in the ballpark of $10-$12 with drink excluding tip), then Spangle's, then whatever else.

[J N Winkler]

Of the options already mentioned, it sounds like Spangles (menu) is the choice that best meets the criteria that have been mentioned--(1) locally based if it is a chain; (2) wide menu selection; (3) enough spare capacity in at least one location to accommodate a large group.  Another possibility is Spear's, on Maple just east of Towne West (their menu, which unfortunately is not online with the exception of several for the offsite catering side of the business, focuses on standard Americana).  They are local and can do large groups, though in Wichita they have a bit of a reputation for aiming for the over-60 set.  Food is reasonable and I think they usually do a fixed-price buffet.

One other possibility is Tanya's Soup Kitchen (menu), a soup-and-sandwich place for which I have heard high recommendations (I have never actually eaten there, so can't comment as to availability of seating for a large group).  Another local favorite is the Artichoke Bar on North Broadway, which is justly famous for its Number Eight sandwich.  It could accommodate a group of perhaps up to 10 with tables pushed together but is very much a traditional dive, with dim lighting, pool tables, bar service, etc.

Edit:  I can't find pricing for Granite City Food & Brewery in Wichita (the chain is national; I suspect prices are locally set), but I remember $15-$20 for typical dinner entrées (inclusive of drink) at the one at Westroads Mall in Omaha.

[kphoger]

Another local favorite is the Artichoke Bar on North Broadway, which is justly famous for its Number Eight sandwich.  It could accommodate a group of perhaps up to 10 with tables pushed together but is very much a traditional dive, with dim lighting, pool tables, bar service, etc.

As I recall, it was famous with the mail carriers.  I haven't been there either, but I've heard also that it's considered a dive.  I also haven't heard if it's still any good, or if it just used to be.

I can't find pricing for Granite City Food & Brewery in Wichita (the chain is national; I suspect prices are locally set), but I remember $15-$20 for typical dinner entrées (inclusive of drink) at the one at Westroads Mall in Omaha.

Yeah, 10 to 12 dollars including a drink doesn't seem very reasonable for Granite City unless you get one of the cheapest entrées and no alcohol.  If that's out of price range, then I agree Spangles might be the best bet, even though it's nothing to write home about.  Is there anything healthy there, in case someone is watching their calories?

As for the others, I just can't bring myself to set something up for a place none of us has actually eaten at.

Bella Luna might also be a tad pricey, but is a safe bet for good eats–and also fits the bill of being an ethnic restaurant that has options for people who just want American-style fare.

[J N Winkler]

As I recall, it was famous with the mail carriers.  I haven't been there either, but I've heard also that it's considered a dive.  I also haven't heard if it's still any good, or if it just used to be.

It still is a dive (a few of us had drinks there in the late afternoon a few months ago after a court hearing), and the food is still good (I had a Number Eight just a few weeks ago).

As for the others, I just can't bring myself to set something up for a place none of us has actually eaten at.

I have actually eaten at Spears (most recently about a month ago when a cousin-in-law brought her children and mother down from Nebraska for a performance), and I would consider it a safe choice--it is just that the food doesn't really stand out for me.

Bella Luna might also be a tad pricey, but is a safe bet for good eats–and also fits the bill of being an ethnic restaurant that has options for people who just want American-style fare.

Bella Luna is quite a good choice in terms of food, but I wonder how the various outlets in Wichita stack up in terms of accommodation for a group.  The one on Maize (just north of 21st) was quite busy when Randy Hersh and I had dinner there on a Friday night two years ago, though we got prompt service at the bar.  A friend and I tried to have lunch at the one in Bradley Fair (21st and Rock) on a weekday back in January, and had to settle for the restaurant next door (Il Vicino?) when we were told that the wait for a seat was around half an hour.  I haven't tried the one at Central and Oliver.

As to price, it's easy enough to get out of there for under $12--the chicken shawarma, for example, costs $8, and I can't imagine a nonalcoholic drink (not listed on the menu) costing more than $3, though you can easily walk out of there $20 lighter if you push the boat out and get hummus as an appetizer.

[corco]

Yeah, 10 to 12 dollars including a drink doesn't seem very reasonable for Granite City unless you get one of the cheapest entrées and no alcohol.  If that's out of price range, then I agree Spangles might be the best bet, even though it's nothing to write home about.  Is there anything healthy there, in case someone is watching their calories?

In fairness, I don't know what the typical price range is for a roadmeet. I'm also spending a decent amount of money to get to Wichita- an extra however many dollars for food amounts to basically a rounding error in the context of the whole trip- if others are cool with it, I'm down.

[hbelkins]

A place like Applebee's, Chili's, Logan's Roadhouse, etc., has prices typical of normal meet lunch venues.

When I held my recent meet in Ashland, Ky., we ate at Fat Patty's. The menu is at http://www.fatpattysonline.com/menu/menu.html and I didn't hear anyone complain about prices.

[jpi]

Man, July 20 I will be in Albuquerque, NM for one of the biggest toy convetions of the year (Mattel reps come to it) but here is the kicker, I plan on passing through Wichita on my drive back to middle TN sometime that Monday as a county clicnhing scenic route home. I plan on running I-40 east to US 54 to I-35 south in OK and stop for the night.

[kphoger]

*  I-235/13th Street flyover--Piers are currently being erected and fill has started to go up for the abutment at the 13th Street/Windmill Road end

Do you know a good vantage point to see this from?

*  The unusually wide rights-of-way for the I-135 service interchanges at 21st Street and 8th-9th Streets (21st Street was originally planned as a trumpet, and later built as a volleyball before it was reconstructed as a conventional diamond in a project linked with the revitalization of 21st Street east of I-135, which is a sort of main street for the black part of town; 8th-9th Streets was at one time planned as the eastern terminus of the cancelled Inner Loop freeway/western terminus of the boulevard-standard Northeast Diagonal)

I think I've heard you mention stub ramps at the 8th-9th exit, is that right?  Where are these?  My wife and I go jogging right under there a few times a week, so I can scout it out on foot ahead of time.

[J N Winkler]

*  I-235/13th Street flyover--Piers are currently being erected and fill has started to go up for the abutment at the 13th Street/Windmill Road end

Do you know a good vantage point to see this from?

Several are possible, though the legality varies somewhat.  Legal options first:

*  Shared-use (cycling/jogging/walking) trail along Windmill Road/13th Street on the north side (piers in various stages of completion from full cure to rebar cage without framing will be visible, as will the abutment; recently the contractor has moved in steel frames which I think may be used to support steel girder segments prior to field-splicing)

*  Shared-use trail along Zoo Blvd. where it loops under the Big Ditch bridge to cross from the east to the west side of Zoo to connect with the Zoo and the Windmill Road cycle track (construction should be visible in the distance, looking south, and the view should include whatever is going on between the Big Ditch levees)

Questionable ones:

*  Contractor's staging area south of Windmill Road  (I think we would need to get permission in advance from either the KDOT project manager or the contractor)

*  The top of the west Big Ditch levee, which is accessible from Windmill Road by climbing over a low rope fence, and will give a view of the work from the highest ground elevation possible in the area (per city and county ordinances, the Big Ditch is not open to general public access; in my experience a lone individual walking down one of the levees won't attract the attention of law enforcement, but a group might)

These possibilities are all on the west side of the project area, which is the only part that is readily visible to me on my more or less weekly trip to the Westlink branch library.  Right now there is a 50 MPH workzone on I-235 (traffic shift, all four lanes open, lamp columns already removed) and work of some kind is clearly occurring on either side, but I haven't yet investigated what that is.  I will do some foot tours and report back.

There is also a southern approach to the project area since there is a small housing subdivision tucked in between the Big Ditch and I-235 north of the Central interchange.  The construction plans call for a slight realignment of the street in this area, but I don't know what is going on there right now.  I will have a look the next time I am out that way by car, which will be within a week.

*  The unusually wide rights-of-way for the I-135 service interchanges at 21st Street and 8th-9th Streets (21st Street was originally planned as a trumpet, and later built as a volleyball before it was reconstructed as a conventional diamond in a project linked with the revitalization of 21st Street east of I-135, which is a sort of main street for the black part of town; 8th-9th Streets was at one time planned as the eastern terminus of the cancelled Inner Loop freeway/western terminus of the boulevard-standard Northeast Diagonal)

I think I've heard you mention stub ramps at the 8th-9th exit, is that right?  Where are these?  My wife and I go jogging right under there a few times a week, so I can scout it out on foot ahead of time.

I think I had this in mind:

Flare suggesting a planned merge of two ramps feeding into I-135 southbound

Not quite an Evel Knievel ramp, I'm afraid.

BTW, the Northeast Diagonal was planned to pick up the old railroad line that crosses the Canal Route somewhere between Murdock and Central, and follow that natural severance corridor out of town toward the northeast.  The line has been dismantled and I believe it is now hikable, though I don't know for sure that it has undergone formal rail-to-trail conversion.

[kphoger]

It's not rail-to-trail from the path underneath the Canal Route, at least.  The bridge over the canal does still have iron rails on it, but it's barricaded.  Don't get me wrong, people do walk on it, but just as a shortcut from here to there.

As for the stub ramp, that was the only thing that came to my mind.  I didn't know if there were other clues I was missing, especially since I hardly ever use the ramps on the north side of the interchange.

[US71]

Should be easy.  Those attending:  what are your top three picks for cuisine or type of restaurant?

BBQ, Gourmet Burgers (NOT 5 Guys), steak, chicken.

Mexican and Chinese make me ill, unfortunately.