Transitioning from Work-From-Home back to going to the office

[hbelkins]

How many people here are permanently remote? ::raises hand::

Semi-permanent. Minimum of three days in the office with two days at home (with the stipulation that if the need arises, I have to go in on one of my scheduled telecommute days.)

With the way gas prices are now, I'm grateful that I'm not having to make a 60-mile round-trip five days a week in a vehicle that gets, at best, 17 mpg.

Between gas and no payroll tax, I saved a lot of money when I was working from home 95 percent of the time with only an occasional trip to the office to pick up mail or if something else came up.

How did payroll tax come into play with working remotely? 

Many municipalities - especially cities - have a payroll tax if you're working in that jurisdiction.  If you're not physically working in that jurisdiction, you don't need to pay that jurisdiction's payroll tax.

This. Both the City of Jackson and Breathitt County levy payroll taxes. Lee County does not. We fill out forms indicating where we are assigned to work and what percentage of time we spend in each jurisdiction. When I was only going in infrequently, I indicated that 95 percent of my time was spent in Lee County and 5 percent was spent in Jackson/Breathitt County. This amounted to a de facto 3 percent raise for the time our office was closed.

Now it's 60/40, which means I'm only paying the 3 percent occupational tax three days a week.

[abefroman329]

How odd, the only place I've lived where I've had to pay a municipality tax was NYC.

[snowc]

How many people here are permanently remote? ::raises hand::

Permanently remote since AUGUST 31, 2018. 
I have been fully online at my alma mater, NC Cyber Academy, from September 10, 2018 (during Hurricane Florence) to May 29, 2020.
Since then, I've been at Wake Tech since September 15, 2020, AND I LOVE IT! 

[Rothman]

How odd, the only place I've lived where I've had to pay a municipality tax was NYC.

^This.  NYC and Yonkers are they nutty ones.  Everywhere else in NY, nope.

[kalvado]

How odd, the only place I've lived where I've had to pay a municipality tax was NYC.

^This.  NYC and Yonkers are they nutty ones.  Everywhere else in NY, nope.

I can se some logic in Albany flirting with idea of more funding from commuters.
But the way city government works, that would be yet another taxation without representation.

[Scott5114]

Many municipalities - especially cities - have a payroll tax if you're working in that jurisdiction.  If you're not physically working in that jurisdiction, you don't need to pay that jurisdiction's payroll tax.

Wilmington, Delaware, where I live, says if you're telecommuting into Wilmington you still have to pay wage tax.  My wife and I don't work in Wilmington, but we have to pay it because we live there.

That is an interesting situation. Many global companies have disperse set of locations and network access points. While we don't have this tax, I wonder how that would work out for my wife who often had to VPN into Singapore access point - as US locations were overloaded daytime during early covid - to access servers at company headquarters in California to join a meeting which - during in-person days - is held is a conference room at a local facility in upstate NY.  Who would have most rights for telecommuter tax?

My inclination would be to pay nobody that doesn't have any actual jurisdiction to send a cop to my house.

[GaryV]

I worked for Chrysler in Highland Park. Michigan allows cities to charge income tax to non-residents (at a lower rate than residents) if the city where they live does not have an income tax.

One year we had some off-site training. When filling out the silly Highland Park tax forms, it allowed you to not pay taxes on the days you were off-site. And the rules as written included vacation as off-site.'

I currently work from home, and will stay doing so for as long as they allow it. Even though my work location is the shortest distance from home in my entire working life.

Those who normally work at our Detroit location (not me) don't have to pay non-resident income tax as long as they are working from home.

[ZLoth]

Perhaps some of you saw this article from Fortune:

No, you aren't automatically saving money by working from home. Here's how much it's costing you

Lunch-flation. Soaring gas prices. Updating your work wardrobe. It's no wonder many U.S. workers are resisting employer demands to head back to the office full-time.

Despite many companies setting April return-to-office deadlines, for the past month, U.S. office occupancy has held steady at roughly 43%, according to Kastle's Back to Work Barometer that takes into account rates in 10 major cities. Many employees are pushing back against heading into the office not because of rising COVID caseloads, but arguing that their commutes are too expensive. In fact, a recent report from Deloitte found nearly 40% of millennials and a third of Gen Zers report that remote work has helped them save money.

But is working from home really a savings game-changer for most workers?

FULL ARTICLE HERE

Or this response opinion article such as this one from Vox:

Why the return to the office isn't working
"I don't gain anything besides a commute."

Andres is back to the office three days a week, and like many knowledge workers, he's not happy about it. He says that while he and the other executive assistants at his Boston law firm have been forced back, the attorneys haven't been following the rules. That's partly because the rules don't quite make sense, and people in all types of jobs are only coming in because they have to, not because there's a good reason to go in.

"People have adapted to remote work, and truthfully, the firm has done a tremendous job at adapting in the pandemic,"  said Andres, who would prefer going in two days, as long as others were actually there. "But I think it's more the returning to work that they're struggling on."  He, like a number of other office workers, spoke with Recode anonymously to avoid getting in trouble with his employer.

FULL ARTICLE HERE

First off, let me state that every person's situation is unique, and not all jobs lend themselves to working from home. While I'm grateful to be back in the office, especially to build up the separation between work and home, I'm also within walking distance having intentionally purchased a home across the street from where I work. My employer has made it optional to come into the office at this time, and the message to the team I manage is "if you have to drive into work, might as well work from home." Surprisingly, it it I and maybe two other team leads who are in the office on Mondays and Fridays.

Part of the challenge I have with the Fortune article is that they focus too much on the dollars and cents and gloss over the non-monetary costs such as time. There is something to be said about waking up at 6:45 AM, making breakfast, feeding the cat, and being at one's desk at 7:00 AM and not having to deal with a drive to work and the corresponding wear-and-tear on the vehicle and yourself dealing with the stress of commute traffic and perhaps child care needs. Perhaps it's also the fact that some of us like focusing on the task to be completed, and dislike not being interrupted by a co-worker passing by.

However, I also think that some of the push by the employers to get people back into the office is because they have long-term leases on office spaces. Those leases are hard to break, so the employer is effectively payng to light up and cool empty office space. The bean counters are not liking that at all, especially with the companies also partially reimbursing for the Internet connectivity and the costs of maintaining secure VPNs to the office. I wonder if that played a factor in some of Elon micro-manager Elon Musk's recent "Return to Office or pretend to work elsewhere" comments.

[Rothman]

The Forbes article is just a bullhorn for Boomer-aged office-attendance-obsessed management.  The only cost increase in working from home mentioned is average utility bills, while it dismisses personal reports that people are saving money.  I put a lot more stock in the latter, since utility costs vary widely state-to-state.  Average may not be the greatest summary statistic in that case.  So, despite Forbes bringing up commute costs, the overall argument comes across as pretty flimsy to me, especially as someone who rents (all utilities paid with only a minor increase in annual rent), owns a single car and walks to work.

[MikeTheActuary]

However, I also think that some of the push by the employers to get people back into the office is because they have long-term leases on office spaces. Those leases are hard to break, so the employer is effectively payng to light up and cool empty office space. The bean counters are not liking that at all, especially with the companies also partially reimbursing for the Internet connectivity and the costs of maintaining secure VPNs to the office.

While I can believe that being the case for some companies, I think there are more that are drooling over the prospect of the savings from reduced real estate needs.

My company did an acquisition during the pandemic.   In places where both our company and the acquired company had offices, we essentially closed one set of offices right after the acquisition closed, because with WFH/hybrid work expected to be the norm, we knew we wouldn't need as much space.

I think the main reason we haven't downsized our office space more is the combination of leases not yet being up for renewal, and uncertainty for exactly how often people will be in the office.   When I made my first trip into the office a few weeks ago, one of the days there were only three of us on the floor of our downtown office tower.

I do, however, wonder if some companies are going to face long-term challenges with talent development in a WFH world.   A lot of my early career education came from simply being exposed to other people doing different work.  You hear what they do from nearby cubes, or while walking around the office, and you learn a few things.   Or random encounters in the office sometimes led to interesting new work or unexpected solutions to problems.   While I do prefer working from home, those are things I miss from my days as an office-dwelling cube-rat.

[kalvado]

I do, however, wonder if some companies are going to face long-term challenges with talent development in a WFH world.   A lot of my early career education came from simply being exposed to other people doing different work.  You hear what they do from nearby cubes, or while walking around the office, and you learn a few things.   Or random encounters in the office sometimes led to interesting new work or unexpected solutions to problems.   While I do prefer working from home, those are things I miss from my days as an office-dwelling cube-rat.

A very good point.
On the same page, social interaction allows finding efficient ways to  make things go through. Depends on office organization and work climate, of course

[hbelkins]

With the current gas prices, I'd love it if telecommuting more than two days a week became an option.

I haven't really noticed an uptick in my utility bills (water and electricity) working from home. Plus, there's a definite advantage to sleeping until 7:45 to go on the clock at 8 a.m. instead of having to get up, shower, and drive 45 minutes/30 miles to be at the desk.

There are home pressures when you're not in the office -- "Honey, help me with this for a minute" -- but the nuisance factor of that vs. gas at $4.799 a gallon and each day's commute currently costing $16 tilts heavily toward staying home.

Interestingly enough, I was told that while our office was closed and everyone was working from home unless they absolutely needed to come in, electricity consumption decreased greatly but the water use remained the same. It was posited that the water company was estimating usage instead of actually reading meters.

While we were on full-time telecommuting status, I was not required to give an accounting of my daily work activities. I'm told that agency-wide, some supervisors did require it while others didn't. When we went to the current schedule (three days in the office, two at home,) a daily status report of accomplishments became required. I don't know how strictly that's enforced, but I email my boss every afternoon. Of course much of my work is available for public consumption so it's easy to see what I'm doing.

I had to stay home for personal reasons and not go in last Thursday, one of my scheduled in-office days, but I still produced some work product. The mechanism doesn't exist for me to charge time for working from home during regular hours when I'm supposed to be in the office the way it does if I log time after hours or on the weekend.

[kphoger]

How would working from home increase my utility bills?  My wife and three kids are still home, even if I'm not.

[JayhawkCO]

How would working from home increase my utility bills?  My wife and three kids are still home, even if I'm not.

I mean, marginally with you using the bathroom and drinking water at home your water bill could go up. And using a computer at home instead of the office might would raise the power bill. Lastly, you might have higher a/c if you use a room that normally runs hot for your office.

[kalvado]

How would working from home increase my utility bills?  My wife and three kids are still home, even if I'm not.

I mean, marginally with you using the bathroom and drinking water at home your water bill could go up. And using a computer at home instead of the office might would raise the power bill. Lastly, you might have higher a/c if you use a room that normally runs hot for your office.

AC and heat.
Turning off / weakening temperature control when nobody is home is definitely a way some people are doing it.

[kphoger]

How would working from home increase my utility bills?  My wife and three kids are still home, even if I'm not.

I mean, marginally with you using the bathroom and drinking water at home your water bill could go up. And using a computer at home instead of the office might would raise the power bill. Lastly, you might have higher a/c if you use a room that normally runs hot for your office.

AC and heat.
Turning off / weakening temperature control when nobody is home is definitely a way some people are doing it.

But there's always someone home.

[JayhawkCO]

How would working from home increase my utility bills?  My wife and three kids are still home, even if I'm not.

I mean, marginally with you using the bathroom and drinking water at home your water bill could go up. And using a computer at home instead of the office might would raise the power bill. Lastly, you might have higher a/c if you use a room that normally runs hot for your office.

AC and heat.
Turning off / weakening temperature control when nobody is home is definitely a way some people are doing it.

But there's always someone home.

For me specifically, my office is in my basement and gets pretty cold in the winter. I run a space heater near me that wouldn't be on if I were in an office, and this is irrespective of my wife being home or not.

[kalvado]

How would working from home increase my utility bills?  My wife and three kids are still home, even if I'm not.

I mean, marginally with you using the bathroom and drinking water at home your water bill could go up. And using a computer at home instead of the office might would raise the power bill. Lastly, you might have higher a/c if you use a room that normally runs hot for your office.

AC and heat.
Turning off / weakening temperature control when nobody is home is definitely a way some people are doing it.

But there's always someone home.

For you  maybe. For some other people home is empty during daytime hours (as of pre-covid) with kids at school and adults at work.
Even with fewer people,  going from full house to a single room AC is definitely possible. Depends on how much you value comfort over money.

[kphoger]

How would working from home increase my utility bills?  My wife and three kids are still home, even if I'm not.

I mean, marginally with you using the bathroom and drinking water at home your water bill could go up. And using a computer at home instead of the office might would raise the power bill. Lastly, you might have higher a/c if you use a room that normally runs hot for your office.

AC and heat.
Turning off / weakening temperature control when nobody is home is definitely a way some people are doing it.

But there's always someone home.

For you  maybe. For some other people home is empty during daytime hours (as of pre-covid) with kids at school and adults at work.
Even with fewer people,  going from full house to a single room AC is definitely possible. Depends on how much you value comfort over money.

Sure, but you were responding to a post in which I specifically stated "My wife and three kids are still home, even if I'm not."

[kalvado]

How would working from home increase my utility bills?  My wife and three kids are still home, even if I'm not.

I mean, marginally with you using the bathroom and drinking water at home your water bill could go up. And using a computer at home instead of the office might would raise the power bill. Lastly, you might have higher a/c if you use a room that normally runs hot for your office.

AC and heat.
Turning off / weakening temperature control when nobody is home is definitely a way some people are doing it.

But there's always someone home.

For you  maybe. For some other people home is empty during daytime hours (as of pre-covid) with kids at school and adults at work.
Even with fewer people,  going from full house to a single room AC is definitely possible. Depends on how much you value comfort over money.

Sure, but you were responding to a post in which I specifically stated "My wife and three kids are still home, even if I'm not."

Well, I read it as "they are still on a FWH/school from home schedule".
I think overall we do understand each other. Something true for 80% of population would still be wrong for 1 out of 5 people!   

[kphoger]

Well, I read it as "they are still on a FWH/school from home schedule".

Oh, I see why.  I meant "still = regardless" and you understood "still = up to the present time".

(My wife works from home and my children are home-schooled.)

[ZLoth]

From CNBC (courtesy bing101):

Amazon is seeing some employees quit instead of moving to a new state as part of relocation mandate

As part of Amazon's aggressive effort to get employees back to the office, the company is going a step further and demanding that some staffers move to a central hub to be with their team. Those who are unwilling or unable to comply are being forced to find work elsewhere, and some are choosing to quit, CNBC has learned.

Several employees spoke to CNBC about the new relocation requirement. An employee in Texas, who was hired in a remote role, said managers assured his team in March that nothing would change despite the return-to-office (RTO) mandate issued the prior month. But in July, the team was informed by management that they'd have to choose between working out of Seattle, New York, Austin, Texas, or Arlington, Virginia, according to internal correspondence.

Under the guidelines, remote workers are expected to have completed their move to a main hub by the first half of 2024, the document states. The employee, who doesn't live near any of the designated cities, chose to leave Amazon after securing another position, in part due to uncertainty about future job security and the potential of higher living costs associated with the relocation with no guarantee of an increase in salary.

FULL ARTICLE HERE

[jeffandnicole]

From CNBC (courtesy bing101):

Amazon is seeing some employees quit instead of moving to a new state as part of relocation mandate

As part of Amazon's aggressive effort to get employees back to the office, the company is going a step further and demanding that some staffers move to a central hub to be with their team. Those who are unwilling or unable to comply are being forced to find work elsewhere, and some are choosing to quit, CNBC has learned.

Several employees spoke to CNBC about the new relocation requirement. An employee in Texas, who was hired in a remote role, said managers assured his team in March that nothing would change despite the return-to-office (RTO) mandate issued the prior month. But in July, the team was informed by management that they'd have to choose between working out of Seattle, New York, Austin, Texas, or Arlington, Virginia, according to internal correspondence.

Under the guidelines, remote workers are expected to have completed their move to a main hub by the first half of 2024, the document states. The employee, who doesn't live near any of the designated cities, chose to leave Amazon after securing another position, in part due to uncertainty about future job security and the potential of higher living costs associated with the relocation with no guarantee of an increase in salary.

FULL ARTICLE HERE

So, the decision every other employee who was part of a job relocation has had to experience since the beginning of eternity.

At least these people have 4 options. Most only have 1.

[JayhawkCO]

From CNBC (courtesy bing101):

Amazon is seeing some employees quit instead of moving to a new state as part of relocation mandate

As part of Amazon's aggressive effort to get employees back to the office, the company is going a step further and demanding that some staffers move to a central hub to be with their team. Those who are unwilling or unable to comply are being forced to find work elsewhere, and some are choosing to quit, CNBC has learned.

Several employees spoke to CNBC about the new relocation requirement. An employee in Texas, who was hired in a remote role, said managers assured his team in March that nothing would change despite the return-to-office (RTO) mandate issued the prior month. But in July, the team was informed by management that they'd have to choose between working out of Seattle, New York, Austin, Texas, or Arlington, Virginia, according to internal correspondence.

Under the guidelines, remote workers are expected to have completed their move to a main hub by the first half of 2024, the document states. The employee, who doesn't live near any of the designated cities, chose to leave Amazon after securing another position, in part due to uncertainty about future job security and the potential of higher living costs associated with the relocation with no guarantee of an increase in salary.

FULL ARTICLE HERE

So, the decision every other employee who was part of a job relocation has had to experience since the beginning of eternity.

At least these people have 4 options. Most only have 1.

Eh, I'd argue that it's different. For traditional office jobs, you knew where you'd be working when you took the job, and the only way something would change would be something pretty drastic, like a company getting purchased or something along those lines. In these cases, nothing is changing with the business. It still exists where it exists.

[ZLoth]

I think some of the drive now to return to the office is the bean counters are griping about the long term office leases only to be air condition empty desks, and it is ideal to actually have occupied desks.

Personally, I prefer having the barrier between the work environment and the home environment with the option of WFH occasionally. I specifically choose the neighborhood I lived in when I was job relocated because it had high-speed internet and was within walking distance of my workplace. It was Covid which forced me to a WFH situation, and then an adult caregiver role. But, for other folks, they prefer the lack of distractions and the short commute from bedroom to home office, plus not having to deal with the rush hour traffic.