The I-676

[02 Park Ave]

Are there any plans afoot to eliminate the traffic signals between the Ben Franklin Bridge and the Vine Street Expressway in Philadelphia on the I-676?  There was talk of a westbound ramp several years ago.

Mr. G sends

[Zeffy]

First, welcome to the forums!    Second, I'm not sure anyone is getting a ramp put up there to eliminate the traffic signals between the VSE and the BFB, mainly because that area is heavily built up, and like other past projects in Philadelphia, would probably face stiff opposition and end up getting shafted.

[Alps]

Yes, there was talk. It's not happening. Too much money for something they don't perceive as a problem.

[1995hoo]

I read somewhere there was serious concern about the impact ramps might have on the nearby historic sites. Don't know if that's true, but it's a worthy reason to forego them if it is accurate.

[Alps]

I read somewhere there was serious concern about the impact ramps might have on the nearby historic sites. Don't know if that's true, but it's a worthy reason to forego them if it is accurate.

Properly done, Ben Franklin Square wouldn't suffer at all, but it's the Appeal to Hysteria that kills it every time.

[Ian]

the I-676

Oh, no. No no no no no.

[DeaconG]

I read somewhere there was serious concern about the impact ramps might have on the nearby historic sites. Don't know if that's true, but it's a worthy reason to forego them if it is accurate.

Properly done, Ben Franklin Square wouldn't suffer at all, but it's the Appeal to Hysteria that kills it every time.

As long as it took for them to get the Vine Street Expressway extended to I-95? I wouldn't expect to see it in my lifetime.

[Roadrunner75]

They had their chance to get this right the first time and they blew it.  I remember when the Vine St. expressway was extended and couldn't believe after all that trouble that they ended up with the lights.  Why even bother with the westbound overpass over 6th St. then?  It's like a teaser for a direct freeway connection, followed by a slap in the face once you get over the hill and come up on the lights.

I'm also pretty sure they replaced the signage to stay on 676 eastbound at one point to better sign it for the bridge.  I think the original signage for 676/30 EB indicated Independence Mall or 6th St. or something like that, with the bridge listed second - almost as if they were embarrassed to clearly indicate that this was the mainline of 676 for the bridge, because you were going to come down the hill and end up at a traffic signal on a city street.

[jeffandnicole]

But with this configuration, you get unusual signage as well... http://goo.gl/maps/Ry1ub

[DeaconG]

They had their chance to get this right the first time and they blew it.  I remember when the Vine St. expressway was extended and couldn't believe after all that trouble that they ended up with the lights.  Why even bother with the westbound overpass over 6th St. then?  It's like a teaser for a direct freeway connection, followed by a slap in the face once you get over the hill and come up on the lights.

I'm also pretty sure they replaced the signage to stay on 676 eastbound at one point to better sign it for the bridge.  I think the original signage for 676/30 EB indicated Independence Mall or 6th St. or something like that, with the bridge listed second - almost as if they were embarrassed to clearly indicate that this was the mainline of 676 for the bridge, because you were going to come down the hill and end up at a traffic signal on a city street.

That was probably due to the lawsuit that stopped construction.  Holy Redeemer Chinese Catholic Church brought the whole thing to it's knees for years, those ramps may have been the compromise that got the construction started.

[DAL764]

I admit I know nothing about traffic levels in Philadelphia, but looking at the area in Google Earth. I see that the I-676 westbound bridge over 6th street has 5 lanes with shoulders on both sides. So, has the option been considered to maybe reconstruct that bridge to have 4 lanes westbound without without a shoulder and then build a connection from the I-676 EB 6th Street off-ramp to the bridge and route two lanes of I-676 EB north of the Lightning Bolt.

[Roadrunner75]

I admit I know nothing about traffic levels in Philadelphia, but looking at the area in Google Earth. I see that the I-676 westbound bridge over 6th street has 5 lanes with shoulders on both sides. So, has the option been considered to maybe reconstruct that bridge to have 4 lanes westbound without without a shoulder and then build a connection from the I-676 EB 6th Street off-ramp to the bridge and route two lanes of I-676 EB north of the Lightning Bolt.

I've thought of that myself as well.  It would at least provide a direct connection eastbound.  Westbound a bit more trickier.  One of the problems of having at least 2 lanes eastbound with a direct connection, is that you could only get one more lane eastbound onto the bridge from 5th St/Independence Mall when there is 3 bridge lanes outbound, which might not be enough to accommodate local traffic onto the bridge. 

[jeffandnicole]

As noted in the link below, 7 overpasses to be replaced above I-676 in Philly for $64 million.  Based on that price, I'm guessing they'll be repairing or replacing the bridge decks, but not the bridge beams. 

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20141213_7_bridges_over_Vine_Street_Expressway_to_be_replaced.html

Basically, the project limits are the overpasses between 76 (but not including 76) east to the Logan Square area.

[jemacedo9]

The actual PennDOT release states it's a complete reconstruction...the current bridges are two-span with a pier in the middle; the new bridges are single-span and the piers in the median iof I-676 are going to be removed.

[seicer]

It looks like the work will be done on this older segment: https://goo.gl/maps/3KigZ How old are these bridges?

And I would agree with a poster on that article - cap the darn thing already. It's miserable to walk anywhere near and with all of the developments ongoing near the interstate and the city center, a cap would assist in the property values and bring a linear park to a highway tract.

[PHLBOS]

How old are these bridges?

The original (western) portion of the Vine Expressway was built 1957-1959; around the same time as the Schuylkill Expressway.

Vine Expressway Historic Overview on PhillyRoads.com

[SteveG1988]

Capping it could be an expensive proposition, since with all the traffic that flows through it, and how backed up it can get, the exhaust system would be enormous and take up valuable clearance on the sides and center, if you use the new style turbine ones, and even more if you use the older style plenum.

[PHLBOS]

IIRC, in addition to its cost, the future capping of existing depressed freeways has been pretty much discouraged in the wake of the events of 9/11/01.

[NE2]

IIRC, in addition to its cost, the future capping of existing depressed freeways has been pretty much discouraged in the wake of the events of 9/11/01.

what

[PHLBOS]

IIRC, in addition to its cost, the future capping of existing depressed freeways has been pretty much discouraged in the wake of the events of 9/11/01.

what

Think about it for a moment.  What does more damage in the wake of a bomb blast: an open-air ground-level roadway or one in an enclosed tunnel?

Believe it or not (and I'm not making this up Dan) , the 9/11 reference was recently used a Philly Inquirer article several months back as one new reason why a long-term plan to cap the middle bathtub section of I-95 in Center City Philadelphia (it was originally designed for such in mind) will probably not happen (in addition to current construction costs).

Lest we forget, prior to 9/11; there was Sheikh Omar Abdel-Rahman who was jailed during the 90s for conspiring to blow up several NYC landmarks including the Holland & Lincoln Tunnels. Wiki Account of NYC Landmark Bomb Plot circa 1993

The bottom line here is due to terrorist attacks that have taken place worldwide (including the 3/11/04 subway bombing in Madrid) within the last 13 years; the push to either bury or place everything in a tunnel may have lost momentum... at least in the U.S.

[NE2]

Nope. Just a bullshit excuse by Philly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klyde_Warren_Park

[ARMOURERERIC]

Hell, did they not recently cover a trenched freeway in Dallas.

[Alps]

Hell, did they not recently cover a trenched freeway in Dallas.

If I could merge your post with NE2's, I would.

[english si]

The bottom line here is due to terrorist attacks that have taken place worldwide (including the 3/11/04 subway bombing in Madrid) within the last 13 years; the push to either bury or place everything in a tunnel may have lost momentum... at least in the U.S.

The Madrid bombings weren't subway or in tunnel!

The 7/7 London bombings, however, were (well three of them) in tunnel, but they also show that cut-and-cover tunnels don't offer much potential for increasing fatalities - the people who were killed at Edgware Road (while damage was caused to a wall that later collapsed and another train) and Aldgate killed just 6 and 7 respectively - the bus bomb killed as many as that combined in the open air and next to a hospital. OK, the tunnels were wider than usual cut-and-cover metros, as the bombs went off at junctions - but no larger than a highway tunnel would be (if not considerably smaller). The bombs only killed those within ~3m the bomber as the explosions had room to dissipate*.

And yes, I'm not forgetting Russell Square - 31 people killed in on a line with greater than 4 people/m^2 in a single track bored tunnel 30m underground that the train only just fits in. I'm excluding it as you will never find the people density, nor the closed in surrounds, on a road tunnel.

The people density is never enough for a cut-and-cover road tunnel to be a meaningful target to terrorise people: a bridge as a symbol, a subway for the fatalities, but a freeway just doesn't make sense. Even if the tunnel collapses, unless there's like some big event or building on top, the fatalities wouldn't increase over the same bomb in the same place, but without the cap on top. It's different with bored tunnels, where everything is closer, fire can get really hot, there might be a breach in an underwater tunnel - but cut-and-cover would need a big bomb (with which you can attempt a Docklands '96 or WTC '93 attack on an office building: which can have devastating effects) or a low roof, and a traffic jam to kill more than the people in the vehicle that the bomb is in and even then not that many.

*I'm firmly of the belief, and very glad that it wasn't the case, that if the bombings had been more competently planned, they would have been more destructive. Rather than just getting on any old tube train at Kings Cross St Pancras, they would have simply gone for the three deep lines and not bothered with the sub-surface lines.

[jeffandnicole]

IIRC, in addition to its cost, the future capping of existing depressed freeways has been pretty much discouraged in the wake of the events of 9/11/01.

what

Think about it for a moment.  What does more damage in the wake of a bomb blast: an open-air ground-level roadway or one in an enclosed tunnel?

Believe it or not (and I'm not making this up Dan) , the 9/11 reference was recently used a Philly Inquirer article several months back as one new reason why a long-term plan to cap the middle bathtub section of I-95 in Center City Philadelphia (it was originally designed for such in mind) will probably not happen (in addition to current construction costs).

Lest we forget, prior to 9/11; there was Sheikh Omar Abdel-Rahman who was jailed during the 90s for conspiring to blow up several NYC landmarks including the Holland & Lincoln Tunnels. Wiki Account of NYC Landmark Bomb Plot circa 1993

The bottom line here is due to terrorist attacks that have taken place worldwide (including the 3/11/04 subway bombing in Madrid) within the last 13 years; the push to either bury or place everything in a tunnel may have lost momentum... at least in the U.S.

I always thought the Big Dig cost disaster was a big reason behind the lack of cut-and-cover tunnels. 

Besides, in Philly, anything that has been discussed about Penns Landing has resulted in a lot of hot air.  A lot of people blame 95, but really it's people seeing how well Baltimore's Inner Harbor has done and figured that we can easily copy it, which it ain't all that easy to do.