12-8-8 signals and other 8/12 arrangements

[23skidoo]

There used to be a setup with a pair of 8-8-12 signals and an 8-8-8-12 signal (!) in Birmingham, Michigan. This is an unusual kind of signal for Michigan. I have no idea what the order of the 8-8-8-12 was, since (as you can see) the 12 is a solid green light and not a right turn signal.

You can see it here in 2009 (unfortunately, it was removed sometime between 2009 and 2012):
https://goo.gl/maps/H8A1atamJso

[jakeroot]

There used to be a setup with a pair of 8-8-12 signals and an 8-8-8-12 signal (!) in Birmingham, Michigan. This is an unusual kind of signal for Michigan. I have no idea what the order of the 8-8-8-12 was, since (as you can see) the 12 is a solid green light and not a right turn signal.

Possibly a double-red-ball signal? Guess we'll never know.

[TEG24601]

Last year when I was in Portland, OR, there were some brand new 12-8-8s being installed at the east end of Tillamook Crossing, for bus/car intersections in the light rail.  There are actually a lot of 12-8-8s on the city and metro maintained roadways.

[Ian]

There used to be a setup with a pair of 8-8-12 signals and an 8-8-8-12 signal (!) in Birmingham, Michigan. This is an unusual kind of signal for Michigan. I have no idea what the order of the 8-8-8-12 was, since (as you can see) the 12 is a solid green light and not a right turn signal.

Possibly a double-red-ball signal? Guess we'll never know.

Zooming in on the street view, it looks like the 8" heads are R-Y-G. I obviously can't confirm for sure, but it appears as if there used to be dual left-turn lanes onto Brown Street with the right one being a left/straight/right option lane. Instead of leaving the 12" head off until it got taken down, the city replaced the green arrow lens with a ball lens and left the 8" head dark.

[jakeroot]

There used to be a setup with a pair of 8-8-12 signals and an 8-8-8-12 signal (!) in Birmingham, Michigan. This is an unusual kind of signal for Michigan. I have no idea what the order of the 8-8-8-12 was, since (as you can see) the 12 is a solid green light and not a right turn signal.

Possibly a double-red-ball signal? Guess we'll never know.

Zooming in on the street view, it looks like the 8" heads are R-Y-G. I obviously can't confirm for sure, but it appears as if there used to be dual left-turn lanes onto Brown Street with the right one being a left/straight/right option lane. Instead of leaving the 12" head off until it got taken down, the city replaced the green arrow lens with a ball lens and left the 8" head dark.

This appears to be the case. I checked Historic Aerials, and there was indeed a double left onto Brown: https://goo.gl/cV76YU (definitely explains the 12-inch setup on the right).

[MASTERNC]

Maryland often installs a second doghouse signal at intersections (on the opposing pole) with 8 inch red/yellow/green balls and 12 inch green & yellow arrows.

https://goo.gl/maps/RyvF4JCSQTB2

[PColumbus73]

I remember as a kid in Fayetteville, NC, there were quite a lot of 8/12 combinations throughout the city that started to be replaced in the late 1990s, I believe the majority were gone by the early-mid 2000s.

I distinctly remember 8-8-12s (green arrows) at an exit from the Cross Creek Mall at Morganton Road in Fayetteville that were replaced sometime between 1996 and 1999.

Another I remember was an 8-8-8-12 left turn signal (two red lights) at the intersection of Yadkin Road and Santa Fe Drive that was there until probably around 2001.

The last one I clearly remember in Fayetteville was at Bragg Blvd & Pearl Street, it's gone now.

In Ohio, 12-8-8s are still standing in downtown Columbus and in the older neighborhoods surrounding downtown. I think these are gradually getting replaced with all 12s or all 8s.

In South Carolina, there WAS a 12-12-8 at an intersection in Garden City Beach, SC that was replaced very recently. The old signals can be seen on GSV see here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.578959,-79.0221634,3a,23.4y,226.7h,94.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6eveZswx8P7jMsDjU9n77Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

PS, on the GSV link, pan around and see two more just like them

[jakeroot]

In South Carolina, there WAS a 12-12-8 at an intersection in Garden City Beach, SC that was replaced very recently. The old signals can be seen on GSV see here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.578959,-79.0221634,3a,23.4y,226.7h,94.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6eveZswx8P7jMsDjU9n77Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

PS, on the GSV link, pan around and see two more just like them

Very cool! Usually, 12-12-8 layouts (at least in my area) are reserved for fire station signals (red-yellow-flashing yellow) but I've never seen one used for an ordinary signal. I don't see why the yellow needed to be 12 inches. Red and green are arguably the most important.

[freebrickproductions]

In South Carolina, there WAS a 12-12-8 at an intersection in Garden City Beach, SC that was replaced very recently. The old signals can be seen on GSV see here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.578959,-79.0221634,3a,23.4y,226.7h,94.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6eveZswx8P7jMsDjU9n77Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

PS, on the GSV link, pan around and see two more just like them

Very cool! Usually, 12-12-8 layouts (at least in my area) are reserved for fire station signals (red-yellow-flashing yellow) but I've never seen one used for an ordinary signal. I don't see why the yellow needed to be 12 inches. Red and green are arguably the most important.

I think it was to limit visibility of the green due to the nearby intersection. There's the same thing in the other direction:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.57923,-79.0217913,3a,18.2y,78.79h,92.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssR3OZxwM07j2Fu1EHuOhsQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[jakeroot]

In South Carolina, there WAS a 12-12-8 at an intersection in Garden City Beach, SC that was replaced very recently. The old signals can be seen on GSV see here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.578959,-79.0221634,3a,23.4y,226.7h,94.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6eveZswx8P7jMsDjU9n77Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

PS, on the GSV link, pan around and see two more just like them

Very cool! Usually, 12-12-8 layouts (at least in my area) are reserved for fire station signals (red-yellow-flashing yellow) but I've never seen one used for an ordinary signal. I don't see why the yellow needed to be 12 inches. Red and green are arguably the most important.

I think it was to limit visibility of the green due to the nearby intersection. There's the same thing in the other direction:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.57923,-79.0217913,3a,18.2y,78.79h,92.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssR3OZxwM07j2Fu1EHuOhsQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I see. Still seems like an odd choice. If you're going to use small signals to reduce far-away visibility, why not use all 8-inch signals? 8-inch reds are still allowed, so long as the signal is 100(?) feet from the stop line, or less.

[index]

In South Carolina, there WAS a 12-12-8 at an intersection in Garden City Beach, SC that was replaced very recently. The old signals can be seen on GSV see here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.578959,-79.0221634,3a,23.4y,226.7h,94.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6eveZswx8P7jMsDjU9n77Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

PS, on the GSV link, pan around and see two more just like them

Very cool! Usually, 12-12-8 layouts (at least in my area) are reserved for fire station signals (red-yellow-flashing yellow) but I've never seen one used for an ordinary signal. I don't see why the yellow needed to be 12 inches. Red and green are arguably the most important.

I think it was to limit visibility of the green due to the nearby intersection. There's the same thing in the other direction:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.57923,-79.0217913,3a,18.2y,78.79h,92.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssR3OZxwM07j2Fu1EHuOhsQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I see. Still seems like an odd choice. If you're going to use small signals to reduce far-away visibility, why not use all 8-inch signals? 8-inch reds are still allowed, so long as the signal is 100(?) feet from the stop line, or less.

Instead of that mess, why not PV signals? I've seen them used to limit far-away visibility. Preferably 3M, because any other programmable visibility signal is vastly inferior. (I'm looking at you, louvers and McCain signals.)

[freebrickproductions]

In South Carolina, there WAS a 12-12-8 at an intersection in Garden City Beach, SC that was replaced very recently. The old signals can be seen on GSV see here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.578959,-79.0221634,3a,23.4y,226.7h,94.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6eveZswx8P7jMsDjU9n77Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

PS, on the GSV link, pan around and see two more just like them

Very cool! Usually, 12-12-8 layouts (at least in my area) are reserved for fire station signals (red-yellow-flashing yellow) but I've never seen one used for an ordinary signal. I don't see why the yellow needed to be 12 inches. Red and green are arguably the most important.

I think it was to limit visibility of the green due to the nearby intersection. There's the same thing in the other direction:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.57923,-79.0217913,3a,18.2y,78.79h,92.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssR3OZxwM07j2Fu1EHuOhsQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I see. Still seems like an odd choice. If you're going to use small signals to reduce far-away visibility, why not use all 8-inch signals? 8-inch reds are still allowed, so long as the signal is 100(?) feet from the stop line, or less.

Instead of that mess, why not PV signals? I've seen them used to limit far-away visibility. Preferably 3M, because any other programmable visibility signal is vastly inferior. (I'm looking at you, louvers and McCain signals.)

Because PV signals are very expensive.

SM-G900V

[jakeroot]

In South Carolina, there WAS a 12-12-8 at an intersection in Garden City Beach, SC that was replaced very recently. The old signals can be seen on GSV see here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.578959,-79.0221634,3a,23.4y,226.7h,94.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6eveZswx8P7jMsDjU9n77Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

PS, on the GSV link, pan around and see two more just like them

Very cool! Usually, 12-12-8 layouts (at least in my area) are reserved for fire station signals (red-yellow-flashing yellow) but I've never seen one used for an ordinary signal. I don't see why the yellow needed to be 12 inches. Red and green are arguably the most important.

I think it was to limit visibility of the green due to the nearby intersection. There's the same thing in the other direction:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.57923,-79.0217913,3a,18.2y,78.79h,92.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssR3OZxwM07j2Fu1EHuOhsQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I see. Still seems like an odd choice. If you're going to use small signals to reduce far-away visibility, why not use all 8-inch signals? 8-inch reds are still allowed, so long as the signal is 100(?) feet from the stop line, or less.

Instead of that mess, why not PV signals? I've seen them used to limit far-away visibility. Preferably 3M, because any other programmable visibility signal is vastly inferior. (I'm looking at you, louvers and McCain signals.)

Because PV signals are very expensive.

But they're not outrageously expensive compared to the cost of signalisation, and I'm not 100% that this (no disrespect intended) redneck solution was the way to go. There's a lot of 8-inch signals in BC, and (at least) I have no problem seeing them from several blocks away (terrain or buildings usually prevent me from seeing farther).

[23skidoo]

This appears to be the case. I checked Historic Aerials, and there was indeed a double left onto Brown: https://goo.gl/cV76YU (definitely explains the 12-inch setup on the right).

Good detective work. That seems consistent with my childhood memories of the intersection. I thought something was weird about it, but I couldn't remember what.

[jakeroot]

This appears to be the case. I checked Historic Aerials, and there was indeed a double left onto Brown: https://goo.gl/cV76YU (definitely explains the 12-inch setup on the right).

Good detective work. That seems consistent with my childhood memories of the intersection. I thought something was weird about it, but I couldn't remember what.

Wouldn't have even bothered checking if not for Ian's suggestion, so he should get some credit too

[Takumi]

There are a handful of 12-8-8s in the Richmond area. I know of a couple in Hopewell, and a couple more in Richmond itself.

[mrsman]

The old standard in the LA area during the 70's and 80's was to have a n 8-8-8 signal on a pole mounted at the far side left and an 8-8-8 mounted on the far side right.  For wider streets, a 12-12-12 was also hung on a mast arm, usually from the right hand pole (and often times a street light is also attached).  To the extent that there were any provisions in the signal for left or right turns, these were always done with 12 inch lenses.  The left hand pole and the mast arm would generally have a signal that would contain the left turn indication.

Protected only left: Mast arm 12 ball-12 ball-12 arrow; pole mounted 8-8-12 arrow (Sign indicating left on arrow only).  [These have nearly all since been replaced with 12-12-12 with arrows on all indications, for both the mast arm and the left pole mount.]

Protected/permitted for split-phase or lagging signal:  Mast arm 12-12-12-12 green arrow; pole mounted 8-8-8-12 green arrow. [Can't find any in CA at the moment, here is one in Takoma Park, MD:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9995972,-76.9957576,3a,75y,81.19h,99.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJ-3jrr-9i2i3Czuz3pZ7Mg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[EDITED TO ADD: Here's one near Dodger Stadium:]

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0796904,-118.2359487,3a,75y,150.91h,85.42t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7cralnvlJS_9b4yKp0RYRA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[EDITED TO ADD: In the Sacramento area, it was very common to have an 8-8-12 signal on the left pole where there was split phasing as opposed to an 8-8-8-12 signal.]  Most of those have now been upgraded to 12-12-12, but what is interesting is that they use a 3 aspect signal in combination with a 4 aspect signal on the mast arm.

Check out this GSV from 2009.  8-8-12 protected left turns on the median of Watt.  8-8-12 protected left turn (split-phase type) from Hurley to Watt.  And on the mast arm on Hurley, you see a 12-8-8-12.   In the most recent GSV from 2016, every aspect is 12 inch and they added pedestrian signals on every approach, not just the southern crosswalk of Hurley.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.5886176,-121.3830788,3a,75y,74h,86.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saIIEJkVYl30LT-MUN3QwWg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656



Proteced/permitted for other signal types:  Mast arm 12-12-12-12-12 (doghouse); pole mounted 8-8-8-12-12

Corresponding right turn- the LA area is very good about having a right turn signal that corresponds to a left if U-turn is prohibited on the left turning side and there is at least one lane that is right turn only.  These generally featured 8-8-8-12-12 signals.  Here is a shot of a near-side suppelment at Beverly/Fairfax:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0761929,-118.361208,3a,75y,283.27h,85.1t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1seVkQacjdsP6uy8jV3xWyng!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


Culver City and Inglewood were both very fond of using 12-8-8's to allow for a greater emphasis on red.

Nowadays, newer signal installations in the LA area are putting in 12 inch indications as a matter of course, so there are fewer 8/12s out there.

EDITED TO ADD:

When 8-8-8 was more common, you would see plenty of 8/12 combination signals, all over the country.

2 aspect signals:

12-8, occasionally you see metering singals with a larger red.  Some areas also employ other special 2 aspect signals and will emphasize one of the signals with a 12.

Check out this red flashing beacon at an all-way stop in Culver City, CA:

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9952956,-118.3903225,3a,75y,240.81h,90.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKYWaAH4ssosUBsZJxyBz0A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

3-aspect signals

12R-8Y-8G to emphasize red.

12R-12Y-8FY usually at firehouse signals to de-emphasize the near-constant flashing yellow.

8R-8Y-12G emphasizes green.  This is almost always used if green has an arrow, combined with a red ball and a yellow ball.  As mentioned above, you used to see this a lot for a protected only green arrow.  It is also used if there is a turning restriction (L.A. will put a straight green arrow on the right hand side if there is a permanent right turn prohibition and a straight green arrow on the left and mast arm if there is a permanent left turn prohibition.)  I only know of one instance (now removed) of an 8R-8Y-12G with a green ball, and that was at an intersection that used to have a right turn restriction (due to the angle of the street) that was later removed when a "porkchop" was added.  They removed the straight arrow filter and you saw this large green light.

I have not yet seen an 8/12 combination that emphasizes yellow only.  I have also not seen a 12R -8Y-12G either.

4-aspect signals

RYG + arrow.  Arrow will always be 12.  Common combinations are: 8R-8Y-8G-12GA; 12R-8Y-8G-12GA; and 8R-8Y-12G*-12GA

* This 12 G is almost always a green straight arrow.

FYAs:  I have only seen 12RA-12YA-12FYA-12GA of this type.  But if certain liberties are taken, I could see an FYA that is designed with 8R-8Y-12FYA-12GA.  The red arrow and steady yellow arrow would have to be converted to red ball and yellow ball and a "left turn signal" sign needs to be added.  There already are some good reasons to have a yellow ball to indicate the end of the previous phase be different from the yellow arrow that indicates yield when turning, even though this is not allowed by the MUTCD.  (It is an FYA corollary to the old-style 8R-8Y-12GA for protected green arrow.)

5 - aspect signals

RYG + 2 arrow: Arrows will always be 12.  Common combinations are: 8R-8Y-8G-12YA-12GA (both in tower and MD style doghouse); 12R-8Y-8G-12YA-12GA; and 8R-8Y-12G*-12YA-12GA

* This 12 G is almost always a green straight arrow.

Others???

Bottom line.  8/12 combos are great finds, but they are slowly being replaced with all 12 inch aspects.

[M3019C LPS20]

12-8-8 vehicular units remain a familiar sight on New York City streets nowadays, even though a majority of them in recent years have been replaced by standard 12" traffic signal housings. Generally, the 12-8-8 (emphasis on the red signal indication) configuration was beneficial for high speed approaches and considerably sharp turns that lead motorists immediately to signalized intersections. It was common for the NYCDOT at one time to incorporate actual 12" units with the 12-8-8 traffic signals. Typically, the 12-8-8 units were suspended above the streets, while the 12" vehicular heads were typically mounted to the side of the poles.

12" traffic signal units made their debut primarily in the 1970s on New York City streets, even though 8" heads at that time were and still are the norm. It was typical from time to time to see add-ons later at existing signalized intersections. The idea with the 12" heads co-existing with the 8" heads added better visibility to motorists than previously.

[jakeroot]

Typically, the 12-8-8 units were suspended above the streets, while the 12" vehicular heads were typically mounted to the side of the poles.

I'm guessing that's a nod to a time when the primary signal heads were those mounted on poles in the corners, and the overhead signals were supplementary.

[freebrickproductions]

Typically, the 12-8-8 units were suspended above the streets, while the 12" vehicular heads were typically mounted to the side of the poles.

I'm guessing that's a nod to a time when the primary signal heads were those mounted on poles in the corners, and the overhead signals were supplementary.

Also reduces the likely hood of the hanging signal getting whacked by an overheight truck.

[M3019C LPS20]

Typically, the 12-8-8 units were suspended above the streets, while the 12" vehicular heads were typically mounted to the side of the poles.

I'm guessing that's a nod to a time when the primary signal heads were those mounted on poles in the corners, and the overhead signals were supplementary.

Not necessarily. Traffic signals in New York City suspended above the streets are primary units. Those that are pole-mounted or mounted to the side of poles would be considered as supplementary heads.

[M3019C LPS20]

Not necessarily. Traffic signals in New York City suspended above the streets are primary units. Those that are pole-mounted or mounted to the side of poles would be considered as supplementary heads.

Well, they're primary now, but perhaps they weren't always. In the UK, the primary signals are those that are pole mounted, and secondary signals are those mounted on mast arms. My thought was that, in NYC, the secondary signals used smaller signal heads because, for the most part, they were secondary to the pole-mounted signals.

They have always been primary units since the time traffic signal suspension in New York City was first standardized and implemented in 1955. Before then, pole-mounted vehicular heads controlled many intersections citywide for a large portion of the early 20th century, as they were the norm. The simple reason for the transition was visibility.

Side-mounted or pole-mounted traffic signals coexisting with primary units suspended above the streets typically act as enhancers to motorist visibility. So, if you're at the "STOP" line, for example, there's a likely chance you will not be able to see the traffic signal above you. That said, the additional unit, from your point of view, will face you (usually at or slightly above eye level) on the other side of the street (if we're at a four-way intersection setup).

[index]

https://goo.gl/9L1uZT

These 12-12-8 signals normally used for emergency signals seem to be in use to supplement the railroad crossing signals at this intersection. I've never seen this before, does anyone know if this is used elsewhere?

I can't think of any other reason they might be there. If you take a look at older street view imagery, they weren't always there.

[freebrickproductions]

https://goo.gl/9L1uZT

These 12-12-8 signals normally used for emergency signals seem to be in use to supplement the railroad crossing signals at this intersection. I've never seen this before, does anyone know if this is used elsewhere?

I can't think of any other reason they might be there. If you take a look at older street view imagery, they weren't always there.

New Jersey has a crossing (or two) with 12-12-8s in use at it, though this is the only one I can remember off the top of my head:
http://www.rxrsignals.com/New_Jersey/West_Milford/Charlottesburg/

[index]

https://goo.gl/9L1uZT

These 12-12-8 signals normally used for emergency signals seem to be in use to supplement the railroad crossing signals at this intersection. I've never seen this before, does anyone know if this is used elsewhere?

I can't think of any other reason they might be there. If you take a look at older street view imagery, they weren't always there.

New Jersey has a crossing (or two) with 12-12-8s in use at it, though this is the only one I can remember off the top of my head:
http://www.rxrsignals.com/New_Jersey/West_Milford/Charlottesburg/

Hmm, so they work in the same manner that railroad crossing signals in some other countries do. Yellow phase, solid, flashing, or both, before a train arrives, then a red phase when the train is close.