New York

[vdeane]

Interestingly enough, the newer signs in the area of webny99's example also have the direction on the right, even though it was on the left.

There are cases where I prefer to find the cardinal direction above the shield. Two or more shields on the same BGS, for starters.

Imagine how intense it would be if you had three or four shields on one sign with all the cardinals on the right. The middle one(s) would have a cardinal on both sides, a recipe for confusion. Legend and shield sizes would have to decrease just to fit the sign over the road.
Or you could stack the shields vertically, but then think about how tall the sign would be. There would be no space allotment left to include the destinations.

Depends on the sign.  I think I recall an image of an APL in Alabama that had the directions on top even though all that did was add to the sign height since there was ample horizontal space.

[jp the roadgeek]

And there's this APL in CT (about 2 miles from my other pic) with both on the right

[webny99]

Interestingly enough, the newer signs in the area of webny99's example also have the direction on the right, even though it was on the left.

Shoot, I hadn't noticed that yet. I did notice this, where SOUTH flipped from the left on the past install to the right on this one. Obviously, I preferred it when SOUTH was on the left - now it looks weird as heck. Like the arrow is pointing to the I-590 shield or something.

[Michael]

The first BGSes that came to mind while reading the discussion about cardinal direction alignment were these at the southern end of NY 695.  I always thought of it as a subtle way of saying which direction the ramp goes.  I figured I'd look at more BGSes in Syracuse and CNY, and most of the ones I looked at are aligned with the ramp direction.  I never paid attention to the ones at the northern end of NY 695, but the old signs were aligned with the ramp direction, but the new ones aren't.

A unique setup I came across is I-81 northbound at NY 370.  Both of the BGSes before the ramp have the direction after the NY 370 shield, but after you get on the ramp, the directions on the BGSes are aligned with the direction of the ramp split.

As for which order they should be in, I see it as saying (using my first links) "east NY 5" or "NY 5 west".  To me, there isn't really a difference.

As for putting directions on the right, just imagine trying that on these signs on NY 26/365 near Rome.  You'd end up with something like this sign in NC!  The old signs on NY 26/365 combined shields, but the shields look too small, and the signs look too cramped.

[The Ghostbuster]

According to Wikipedia, the easternmost five exits on Interstate 84 have received mileage-based exit numbers (17 is now 58; 18 is now 61; 19 is now 65; 20 is now 68; and 21 is now 69). Can anyone confirm this, as Wikipedia has been known to be unreliable?

[SignBridge]

Michael, I'm sure the writers of the MUTCD would say that the signs in your links are overloaded with way too many route shields. My answer would be to drop some of them or relocate some to supplemental signs so as not to overload a driver's ability to read and understand excessive sign info. The format I suggested might work if the number of shields and cardinal directions are kept to a reasonable number per sign.

[KEVIN_224]

I'm wondering about I-84...is Exit 1 the only exit which can remain as is?

[storm2k]

Thought you guys might get a kick out of this, NYCDOT or NYSDOT replaced these signs a few weeks ago and with a 295 shield in place of a 278 shield.

Since no one has said anything yet - thank you. Wish I lived on that side of the river to check it out.

I'm looking everywhere on Google Maps from Astoria to Corona, and I still can't figure out where these signs are supposed to be. And I walked from the 65th Street Subway Station on the IND Queens Boulevard Line to the St. Michael's Cemetery in the BQE-GCP Triangle in April, so I should've recognized the signposts if they were along the way.

It's roughly at Astoria Blvd EB and 30th St. Looks like the old sign on the right did not have a 278 shield. The new one has an erroneous "295 West." https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7698262,-73.9164171,3a,78y,98.63h,100.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siza4Ero15GQl-WyVY-Hjvw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Did they only do the one on the right? The previous signs looked to be of a fairly recent vintage.

[jp the roadgeek]

I'm wondering about I-84...is Exit 1 the only exit which can remain as is?

In NY, yes.  Exit 2 is going to be Exit 5, and Exit 3 E/W will be 15 A/B.  In CT,  1 would become 1A, and in MA, 1 would become 3.

[PHLBOS]

In CT,  1 would become 1A

Unless there's an official set of plans/documents stating such; that could be open for debate.  Should CTDOT adopt the use of Exit 0; the current Exit 1 would change to that given that it's adjacent to the NY border.

If not (adopting the use of Exit 0) and given the proximities to their respective mile-markers; there's enough of a fudge factor cushion along the westernmost 8 miles of I-84 in CT to keep the current Exits 1 through 8 as is.  PA did a similar move with I-95 in Delaware County, PA through Exit 10 when it converted nearly two decades ago.  That said, the first/westernmost exit number change along I-84 in CT would likely be Exit 9; such would become Exit 11.

in MA, 1 would become 3.

Agreed.

[jp the roadgeek]

The only differences up to 8 in CT would be making Exit 2 into 1B EB and 1 B-C WB, since it falls within the 1 MP.  The only time I would use Exit 0 in figuring exits is when there are  more than 2 exits in the 0 or 1 MP eastbound or northbound, and exits south/westbound that don't correspond.  A NY example would be the last 3 exits SB on I-87.  The I-278 exits would be 0 A-B and Brook Ave would be 0C because you have Willis Ave (1A) both north and southbound, and East 138th St (1B) both north and south.  All of this falls between MP 0.0 and MP 1.9.  CT examples would be I-91 (0A for Downtown New Haven and 0B for 95 North because you have Hamilton, Trumbull, and State as 1A-1C north and south); and CT 9 (the I-95's SB are 0 A-B because you have Ferry Point as 1A and CT 154 as 1B NB)

[PHLBOS]

The only differences up to 8 in CT would be making Exit 2 into 1B EB and 1 B-C WB, since it falls within the 1 MP. NB)

After looking through GSVs, the mainline I-84 overpass for Exit 2/2B-A is located between MM 1.0 and 1.2; so rounding up to the next whole number is not out of the ordinary.  PA did similar for the I-95/PA 320/352 interchange in Chester; Exit 6 despite the overpasses being located at MM 5.4.  Usually MM X.5 at the center of the interchange/crossing is the decider for rounding up to the next whole number (i.e. Exit X+1).

Since it's usually not desirable/preferable to have a suffixed exit only in one direction for a separate interchange ramp; the options I see without resorting to such along that stretch of I-84 would be to either change Exit 1 to Exit 0 and Exits 2 (EB)/2B-A (WB) to 1 (EB)/1B-A (WB) or just leave them as they presently as they are despite current Exits 2/2B-A's location with respect to the mileposts for the reasons earlier noted.

Again, using the earlier-mentioned PA I-95 example; PA originally planned to change one or two of I-95's interchanges along its southernmost 10 miles in PA due to its actual milepost locations.  However, such changes never happened and the southernmost ten interchange numbers remained as is (to this day).  Path of least resistance being in play here (i.e., the less changes, the better).

That said, leaving the westernmost eight I-84 interchange numbers in CT as they are; would be the path of least resistance in terms of the changes.  A similar argument could be made for the southernmost 11-12 miles of I-93 in MA as well; but that's another topic/state for another thread.

[zachb]

Does anybody know what's going on at the Meadowbrook Parkway SB at Exit M10 (Loop Pkwy)? It looks like they're redoing the pavement there, as theyre making everyone take the exit and merge back onto the parkway to continue south to the Ocean Parkway and Jones Beach.

[mrsman]

Thought you guys might get a kick out of this, NYCDOT or NYSDOT replaced these signs a few weeks ago and with a 295 shield in place of a 278 shield.

Since no one has said anything yet - thank you. Wish I lived on that side of the river to check it out.

I'm looking everywhere on Google Maps from Astoria to Corona, and I still can't figure out where these signs are supposed to be. And I walked from the 65th Street Subway Station on the IND Queens Boulevard Line to the St. Michael's Cemetery in the BQE-GCP Triangle in April, so I should've recognized the signposts if they were along the way.

It's roughly at Astoria Blvd EB and 30th St. Looks like the old sign on the right did not have a 278 shield. The new one has an erroneous "295 West." https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7698262,-73.9164171,3a,78y,98.63h,100.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siza4Ero15GQl-WyVY-Hjvw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I think this is an appropriate place to say that I have always found the use of E-W cardinal directions along I-278 in Brooklyn and Queens to be highly confusing.  The roadway is basically along the largely N-S BQE and Gowanus Expy.  Entering Brooklyn from the western end (Verrazano) traveling in the eastern direction you essentially are following "grid" north along Ft Hamilton and 7 Ave, west along 65th, north along 3rd Ave, northwest along Hamilton, north to Downtown Brooklyn, east for about a mile, then northeast until about Queens Blvd, then northwest till you meet the GCP, and then finally west until the Triboro Bridge.  A lot of directional changes.  For the most part, it is far easier to think about this as a N-S road, especially on signs that do not list control cities (or control bridges).  This particular sign referenced above is placed as a direction for I-278 west (toward Brooklyn and SI), but you are actually travelling "grid" east.

E-W is OK in NJ, SI, and Bronx.

Since it is a 3di, there should be no problem with signing the roadway as eastbound from US 1-9 and NJTP, eastbound through SI, then northbound through Brooklyn and Queens and through the Triboro Bridge, and then finally eastbound along the Bruckner Expy.  (Many circular beltways change compass directions to what makes sense.)

[SignBridge]

Zachb, the Meadowbrook Pkwy. toll plaza at Exit-M10 was recently torn down and the road is being rebuilt to a new configuration. The routing that you described must be a temporary detour.

Mrsman, I completely agree with you that I-278 in Brooklyn and Queens should be signed North-South. I've felt that way for the last fifty years since I was a kid and I've never understood why it is signed as East-West. So you're not alone in your thinking! LOL

[RobbieL2415]

Jones Beach has switched over to what is essentially AET for parking fee.  The toll plazas are going bye-bye and the trumpet interchange with the Loop Pkwy is going to be improved upon.  I am assuming that the plaza on the WSP will be going away soon too.

[mrsman]

Zachb, the Meadowbrook Pkwy. toll plaza at Exit-M10 was recently torn down and the road is being rebuilt to a new configuration. The routing that you described must be a temporary detour.

Mrsman, I completely agree with you that I-278 in Brooklyn and Queens should be signed North-South. I've felt that way for the last fifty years since I was a kid and I've never understood why it is signed as East-West. So you're not alone in your thinking! LOL

Indeed.  There are plenty of examples of this type of thing all over the country.  Some other areas have taken a bit of a more direct approach to solving the directional conundrum.

US 41 is nationally a N-S highway, but at its southern end, in the Miami area, it is due E-W following 8th Street (Calle Ocho).  In the Miami area it is routinely signed as E-W, even though it is N-S in other parts of Florida (and the US).

See:

https://www.google.com/maps/@25.7613403,-80.4814036,3a,75y,211.79h,81.32t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s46zP2Jgq2gheb3rDY-8c0g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@25.7609381,-80.3858928,3a,75y,69.18h,86.1t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sU7d3J12Arq-X8zsrjD1rzA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

No good reason the same could not be done on I-278. 

[SignBridge]

This is a common issue. Check out the debate on the Penn Tpke./I-95 Interchange thread re: I-295's cardinal directions.  LOL

And as I mentioned possibly on that board, one way to solve this whole issue would be to follow the German Autobahn practice of using route shields and cities only, with no cardinal directions shown.  But seriously, I believe the U.S. practice is better and more informative.

[D-Dey65]

And that makes me wonder if you just experience highly unusual traffic patterns, because that's what there was at that time and date. At the same time, the MNR train out of Poughkeepsie was what can only be described as "standing room only" (and inaccurately so, since there was no "room"), which happens a statistically negligible number of times per year. (The local train out of Croton was dead empty.)

Not to get too off topic, but it's ridiculous how terrible the service is on the Upper Hudson line considering Dutchess & Putnam county residents pay the same MTA taxes as everyone else downstate. Once you leave electrified territory MNR just doesn't seem to care–Upper Hudson line trains are usually packed, peak and off-peak, but there's never been any push to improve service. The diesel coaches are also the worst out of the entire fleet (with no replacement in the foreseeable future) and the locomotives are very mechanically problematic. There's clearly high demand on the line, weekend trains are frequently standing room only, especially on holidays and when the weather's nice, but running the bare minimum in service just pushes people to drive.

It's interesting that you mention that, since as I alluded to before, I haven't observed service issues to be the norm at all (and my regular commute involves the Poughkeepsie trains up to Peekskill). The biggest headaches usually involves crowds heading to Yankee games and other special events, but not because they fill the train, only because they are the opposite of tranquil. Still, the typical Poughkeepsie train is miles above the Harlem and New Haven lines in availability of seating, and compared to the LIRR or NJT, well... :-)

Maybe this part of the thread should be moved to the Metro-North thread that I started a while back, and considered merging into the general LIRR/NJT and other commuter railroad thread because it was being ignored.


https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19127.0

[mrsman]

This is a common issue. Check out the debate on the Penn Tpke./I-95 Interchange thread re: I-295's cardinal directions.  LOL

And as I mentioned possibly on that board, one way to solve this whole issue would be to follow the German Autobahn practice of using route shields and cities only, with no cardinal directions shown.  But seriously, I believe the U.S. practice is better and more informative.

US practice is certainly better.  But even better would be to sign both cardinal direction and destination, especially where direction is somewhat ambiguous.  Utilizing control cities wherever possible could certainly mitigate any of the confusion involving cardinal directions.  For this part of Astoria the best control cities would be:

I-278 East (north preferred)  RFK (Triboro) Bridge.  [If must use cities Bronx and/or Harlem can be used].
I-278 West (south preferred) Verrazano Narrows Bridge.  [If must use cities use Brooklyn and/or Staten Island].
GCP East Eastern Long Island.  [If a city is needed use Hauppauge, which is the control on the Northern Pkwy in Nassau and Suffolk County.]

Small signs with LGA and JFK can guide people towards the Airports as needed.

[PHLBOS]

NYSDOT installed the first of the mile-based exits on 84:

While riding along I-84 westbound towards the I-684 interchange last night (June 17); I noticed that the old BGS' (w/the sequential exit numbers) for Exits 69/21 & 68/20 are still on the premises; laying face-up in most instances adjacent the signposts/gantries.

Anybody got a large flat-bed truck? 

[astralentity]

All I want to know is when the other regions are gonna follow suit with R8....  I can see highways like I-88, I-787, and possibly the Northway section of I-87 going after those two.

I also wonder if a conversion may be planned for I-86 soon.

[Buffaboy]

Any news on the Rooftop Highway?

[Rothman]

Any news on the Rooftop Highway?

You kidding?

[Roadsguy]

Any news on the Rooftop Highway?

Yes: