AARoads Forum

As the remaining sequential exit number states are converting to mileage-based numbers (or are making plans to do so), I've noticed some inconsistencies in how the various states have been indicating the former exit numbers on signs.  Specifically, it is the text on the signs and the colors used on signs.

For example, PA and CT used the legend "OLD EXIT XX" with white on green signs, while ME used the legend "FORMERLY EXIT XX" with black on yellow signs - MA's original renumbering contract proposed the same legend and colors for their signs.  RI has used the legend "OLD EXIT XX", but in black on yellow.

As this issue was not addressed in the 2009 MUTCD, I'm curious about people's thoughts as to which text and color scheme is best to indicate the previous exit number to drivers.

I think Black on Yellow highlights the change more.  But, they have to be taken down after a few years.  PennDOT/PA Turnpike changed their system from sequential to mileage based in 2001, and the 'Old Exit XX' is still up on many signs.  They were useless 10 years ago.  Useless signs can only increase confusion.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 13, 2017, 12:06:27 PM
I think Black on Yellow highlights the change more.  But, they have to be taken down after a few years.  PennDOT/PA Turnpike changed their system from sequential to mileage based in 2001, and the 'Old Exit XX' is still up on many signs.  They were useless 10 years ago.  Useless signs can only increase confusion.

Agree with you about taking the signs down after a short period.  PennDOT's "OLD EXIT XX" signs were supposed to be removed after two years.  My concern about these signs is that many are mounted to overhead sign trusses.  Any additional loading on the horizontal members of such structures is never good in the long term.

Quote from: roadman on December 13, 2017, 12:09:45 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 13, 2017, 12:06:27 PM
I think Black on Yellow highlights the change more.  But, they have to be taken down after a few years.  PennDOT/PA Turnpike changed their system from sequential to mileage based in 2001, and the 'Old Exit XX' is still up on many signs.  They were useless 10 years ago.  Useless signs can only increase confusion.

Agree with you about taking the signs down after a short period.  PennDOT's "OLD EXIT XX" signs were supposed to be removed after two years.  My concern about these signs is that many are mounted to overhead sign trusses.  Any additional loading on the horizontal members of such structures is never good in the long term.

Luckily, these signs are small, and the load factor calculated for the present sign isn't the absolute max load factor.  I've seen modern instances where an overhead gantry went from holding a few BGSs to a very large APL sign with no issues.

Black on yellow would serve to capture driver's attention more.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 13, 2017, 12:22:38 PM

Quote from: roadman on December 13, 2017, 12:09:45 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 13, 2017, 12:06:27 PM
I think Black on Yellow highlights the change more.  But, they have to be taken down after a few years.  PennDOT/PA Turnpike changed their system from sequential to mileage based in 2001, and the 'Old Exit XX' is still up on many signs.  They were useless 10 years ago.  Useless signs can only increase confusion.

Agree with you about taking the signs down after a short period.  PennDOT's "OLD EXIT XX" signs were supposed to be removed after two years.  My concern about these signs is that many are mounted to overhead sign trusses.  Any additional loading on the horizontal members of such structures is never good in the long term.

Luckily, these signs are small, and the load factor calculated for the present sign isn't the absolute max load factor.  I've seen modern instances where an overhead gantry went from holding a few BGSs to a very large APL sign with no issues.

Point taken.  But it largely depends on the design standards the specific state has for the support structures.  While some states require their supports to meet loading requirements that are a given percentage above the actual panel area, other states leave the exact design up to the fabricator.  Regardless, it's always good practice to have a structure design re-evaluated if the loading is going to be increased - which I hope happened in the APL case you cited.

I agree with black and yellow in that calls more attention to the sign text. I guess I would prefer 'Old Exit XX' simply because its shorter and the text could thus be made bigger and easier to read on the limited space of exit tab size sign. Is MassDOT open to changing the text of these signs in the next iteration of its exit renumbering contract proposal?

Black and yellow might call more attention to it, sure, but is that desired? Why is the old number more important than the new number? It isn't, and it certainly doesn't constitute a warning (which is what black/yellow is for). It should be white on green just like any other exit number.

Also, I'd go with "OLD" just because it's simpler (and maybe just because it's what I remember seeing when Florida renumbered their exits 15 or 20 years ago).

Quote from: Eth on December 13, 2017, 02:01:04 PM
Black and yellow might call more attention to it, sure, but is that desired? Why is the old number more important than the new number? It isn't, and it certainly doesn't constitute a warning (which is what black/yellow is for). It should be white on green just like any other exit number.

Also, I'd go with "OLD" just because it's simpler (and maybe just because it's what I remember seeing when Florida renumbered their exits 15 or 20 years ago).

Agreed on both counts. (although I didn't see OLD in Florida 15 or 20 years ago)

Quote from: spooky on December 13, 2017, 03:11:15 PM

Quote from: Eth on December 13, 2017, 02:01:04 PM
Why is the old number more important than the new number? It isn't, and it certainly doesn't constitute a warning (which is what black/yellow is for). It should be white on green just like any other exit number.

Also, I'd go with "OLD" just because it's simpler.

Agreed on both counts. (although I didn't see OLD in Florida 15 or 20 years ago)

+3
And voted accordingly.

Quote from: Eth on December 13, 2017, 02:01:04 PM
Black and yellow might call more attention to it, sure, but is that desired? Why is the old number more important than the new number? It isn't, and it certainly doesn't constitute a warning (which is what black/yellow is for). It should be white on green just like any other exit number.

Per the MUTCD:

QuoteFunction of Warning Signs
Support:
01 Warning signs call attention to unexpected conditions on or adjacent to a highway, street, or private roads
open to public travel and to situations that might not be readily apparent to road users. Warning signs alert road
users to conditions that might call for a reduction of speed or an action in the interest of safety and efficient
traffic operations.

As the unexpected condition is a change in the exit number, and is an action in efficient traffic operations, it's an appropriate color to be used.  A motorist exiting at the wrong location can become confused and disoriented, especially when directions are subpar, or the motorist has a long way to go.  (ie: if one's directions are to use Exit 2, turn right at bottom of ramp, then go 20 miles, the motorist could be going the wrong direction for a half-hour or more before believing that they aren't in the correct area.  A warning sign in this instance highlights the fact the exit number has changed, which attempts to avoid such scenarios)

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 13, 2017, 03:37:14 PM

Quote from: Eth on December 13, 2017, 02:01:04 PM
Black and yellow might call more attention to it, sure, but is that desired? Why is the old number more important than the new number? It isn't, and it certainly doesn't constitute a warning (which is what black/yellow is for). It should be white on green just like any other exit number.

Per the MUTCD:

QuoteFunction of Warning Signs
Support:
01 Warning signs call attention to unexpected conditions on or adjacent to a highway, street, or private roads
open to public travel and to situations that might not be readily apparent to road users. Warning signs alert road
users to conditions that might call for a reduction of speed or an action in the interest of safety and efficient
traffic operations.

As the unexpected condition is a change in the exit number, and is an action in efficient traffic operations, it's an appropriate color to be used.  A motorist exiting at the wrong location can become confused and disoriented, especially when directions are subpar, or the motorist has a long way to go.  (ie: if one's directions are to use Exit 2, turn right at bottom of ramp, then go 20 miles, the motorist could be going the wrong direction for a half-hour or more before believing that they aren't in the correct area.  A warning sign in this instance highlights the fact the exit number has changed, which attempts to avoid such scenarios)

For me, it's a struggle to categorize an exit number change as road "conditions."  However, I find no definition of "conditions" anywhere in the MUTCD, so who's to say it couldn't?  Provided, of course, that an engineer agrees.

Quote from: MUTCD, 2009 Edition, §2C.02 Application of Warning Signs
01  The use of warning signs shall be based on an engineering study or on engineering judgment.

...with the definition of "engineering judgment" being...

Quote from: MUTCD, 2009 Edition, §1A.13 Definitions of Headings, Words, and Phrases in this Manual
03  The following words and phrases, when used in this Manual, shall have the following meanings:
64  Engineering Judgment–the evaluation of available pertinent information, and the application of appropriate principles, provisions, and practices as contained in this Manual and other sources, for the purpose of deciding upon the applicability, design, operation, or installation of a traffic control device. Engineering judgment shall be exercised by an engineer, or by an individual working under the supervision of an engineer, through the application of procedures and criteria established by the engineer. Documentation of engineering judgment is not required.

Quote from: spooky on December 13, 2017, 03:11:15 PM

Quote from: Eth on December 13, 2017, 02:01:04 PM
Black and yellow might call more attention to it, sure, but is that desired? Why is the old number more important than the new number? It isn't, and it certainly doesn't constitute a warning (which is what black/yellow is for). It should be white on green just like any other exit number.

Also, I'd go with "OLD" just because it's simpler (and maybe just because it's what I remember seeing when Florida renumbered their exits 15 or 20 years ago).

Agreed on both counts. (although I didn't see OLD in Florida 15 or 20 years ago)

Florida still has some OLD signs up from the renumbering... they are getting rare, but I remember passing some on 95 within the past year when I drove the entire state. They're removed as part of any construction project now though.

Given how long they tend to stay up for, I'm also against emphasizing them, so white on green is my vote. I don't mind them being up a while either, directions people print online, old maps, and people who remember exit numbers but don't travel that way very often would be more likely to get confused the shorter they're up, and they don't harm anything when posted in this manner IMO.

Edit to add example; https://www.google.com/maps/@29.547986,-81.2145976,3a,19.3y,-19.92h,99.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJkBBF6Ue01x2hvMbbAYVQg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I think "formerly" is unnecessarily verbose. It reminds me of when sportscasters say "utilized" when "used" would work perfectly well, except that in the sports case it's harmless while in the road case I think the simplest effective wording is preferable. "Old" is probably better for people who don't speak English as their primary language, too. (That issue resonates with me simply because my wife's parents were immigrants who struggled to learn English.)

I voted for the black-on-yellow because it draws the eye.

BTW, regarding the Pennsylvania Turnpike, I still think of Somerset, Bedford, and Breezewood as Exits 10, 11, and 12, respectively. Probably always will.

Just keep it simple, old exit xx. How long do you think these signs should stay up though?

Quote from: roadman on December 13, 2017, 11:38:33 AM
As the remaining sequential exit number states are converting to mileage-based numbers (or are making plans to do so), I've noticed some inconsistencies in how the various states have been indicating the former exit numbers on signs.  Specifically, it is the text on the signs and the colors used on signs.

For example, PA and CT used the legend "OLD EXIT XX" with white on green signs, while ME used the legend "FORMERLY EXIT XX" with black on yellow signs - MA's original renumbering contract proposed the same legend and colors for their signs.  RI has used the legend "OLD EXIT XX", but in black on yellow.

As this issue was not addressed in the 2009 MUTCD, I'm curious about people's thoughts as to which text and color scheme is best to indicate the previous exit number to drivers.

The only example of which I am aware in California has to do with either renamed cities or those that have changed boundaries or renamed streets. What they did with that a few years ago in San Francisco was "Cesar Chavez St (Army)".

Old exit numbers, if they are to be signed at all should be on blue signs.

If they are to be placed on green signs, they might use something like "Exit 15 (Old 10)" or "Exit 15 (#10)".

It will be a great day when New York finally converts, no matter what the little signs like like.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 13, 2017, 03:37:14 PM

Quote from: Eth on December 13, 2017, 02:01:04 PM
Black and yellow might call more attention to it, sure, but is that desired? Why is the old number more important than the new number? It isn't, and it certainly doesn't constitute a warning (which is what black/yellow is for). It should be white on green just like any other exit number.

Per the MUTCD:

QuoteFunction of Warning Signs
Support:
01 Warning signs call attention to unexpected conditions on or adjacent to a highway, street, or private roads
open to public travel and to situations that might not be readily apparent to road users. Warning signs alert road
users to conditions that might call for a reduction of speed or an action in the interest of safety and efficient
traffic operations.

As the unexpected condition is a change in the exit number, and is an action in efficient traffic operations, it's an appropriate color to be used.  A motorist exiting at the wrong location can become confused and disoriented, especially when directions are subpar, or the motorist has a long way to go.  (ie: if one's directions are to use Exit 2, turn right at bottom of ramp, then go 20 miles, the motorist could be going the wrong direction for a half-hour or more before believing that they aren't in the correct area.  A warning sign in this instance highlights the fact the exit number has changed, which attempts to avoid such scenarios)

The black-on-yellow warning category is really meant for conditions relating to horizontal/vertical alignments and clearances, surface conditions, or potential obstructions/conflicts that could require the driver to take an action such as slowing down, changing lanes/position, or coming to a stop.

A change in an exit number is none of these things. Following your logic, we would also need to use warning colors on guide signs if a street's name was changed...

Quote from: Rothman on December 13, 2017, 11:46:24 PM
It will be a great day when New York finally converts, no matter what the little signs like like.

When Region 6 did I-99, they were white on green using formerly.
http://nysroads.com/photos.php?route=us15&state=NY&file=100_8906.JPG

Quote from: Hurricane Rex on December 13, 2017, 10:02:32 PM
Just keep it simple, old exit xx. How long do you think these signs should stay up though?

Standard in other states has been two years after completion of conversion.  However, the tricky part is insuring the signs come down shortly after those two years are up (yes, PennDOT I'm looking at you).  And for those of you who are wondering, it is generally impractical to include that requirement for removing the signs in the contract to do the conversion, as you result in a contract with a lot of dead time - which causes issues on both the contractor's and the DOT's end of things.

For me, it would be OLD EXIT XX, black on yellow.

Quote from: roadman on December 14, 2017, 02:16:13 PM

Quote from: Hurricane Rex on December 13, 2017, 10:02:32 PM
Just keep it simple, old exit xx. How long do you think these signs should stay up though?

Standard in other states has been two years after completion of conversion.  However, the tricky part is insuring the signs come down shortly after those two years are up (yes, PennDOT I'm looking at you).  And for those of you who are wondering, it is generally impractical to include that requirement for removing the signs in the contract to do the conversion, as you result in a contract with a lot of dead time - which causes issues on both the contractor's and the DOT's end of things.

Some even forgotten, like on I-95 in Palm Coast, FL.  OLD 91C is still on the Exit 289 guide signs where the rest of I-95 got rid of em a few years after the change.  I believe its 14 years already since FDOT went mile based, so a big overlook here.

No to black and yellow.
1) Black and yellow is for warning signs
2) It will call more attention to the old exit number than to the actual exit number.  Why would you want the obsolete exit number to appear louder/brighter?

Quote from: vdeane on December 14, 2017, 01:06:30 PM

Quote from: Rothman on December 13, 2017, 11:46:24 PM
It will be a great day when New York finally converts, no matter what the little signs like like.

When Region 6 did I-99, they were white on green using formerly.
http://nysroads.com/photos.php?route=us15&state=NY&file=100_8906.JPG

I know that around 15 years ago NYSDOT was tossing around an idea to have NEW EXIT XX mounted above the existing panel, then swapping the numbers with a FORMERLY EXIT XX below like seen on I-99. Because NYSDOT wants to use as much money and time as possible to do this, apparently.

Quote from: upstatenyroads on December 21, 2017, 07:02:17 PM

Quote from: vdeane on December 14, 2017, 01:06:30 PM

Quote from: Rothman on December 13, 2017, 11:46:24 PM
It will be a great day when New York finally converts, no matter what the little signs like like.

When Region 6 did I-99, they were white on green using formerly.
http://nysroads.com/photos.php?route=us15&state=NY&file=100_8906.JPG

I know that around 15 years ago NYSDOT was tossing around an idea to have NEW EXIT XX mounted above the existing panel, then swapping the numbers with a FORMERLY EXIT XX below like seen on I-99. Because NYSDOT wants to use as much money and time as possible to do this, apparently.

Well that is because NY is stubborn anyhow.

I am interested in seeing though how NJDOT will do it when changing I-95 to I-295 next week.  Also how the cardinal directions will be signed from the Delaware River to US 1, but that is for another topic.   Last time NJDOT did sign FORMERLY EXIT XX when they redid it before when I-295 ended west of Federal City Road and that said exit, US 206, CR 583, and US 1 had to changed out to match free I-95's scheme.  They were on the exit gore sign in yellow.

However, the GSP used them on the tab above the sign panel when changing out NJ 27 and US 22 respectively.  I can't say for sure on this one as it was done recently and have not been to NJ since 2012 long before all of this renumbering.

I ask to be counted as another vote for "Old Exit XX" verbiage in colors that match the rest of the guide sign (usually white on green).  I am not in favor of warning sign colors.  In the very limited cases where these or construction colors are used to indicate changes in signing, the alterations in question pertain to regulatory rather than guide signs.

With the exception of emergency stop sign replacements and midnight-to-dawn field amendments of speed limit signs to reflect newly increased limits, I have never known signing changes to occur punctually.  It would not surprise me if even Massachusetts, with its well-organized freeway guide signing program, failed to remove the "Old Exit XX" plaques after two years.

Florida is still installing "Old Exit XX" in white on green in certain locations; I have a guide sign worksheet for it from the last five years.  New Jersey has also had a sign on the Garden State Parkway reading "To Former Exit 88" (color combination unknown).

NJDOT will be doing (http://www.state.nj.us/transportation/commuter/roads/I95-295/) "OLD (I-95 shield) EXIT X" in black on yellow as another tab mounted above the normal exit tab.

Quote from: J N Winkler on December 21, 2017, 09:55:41 PM
I ask to be counted as another vote for "Old Exit XX" verbiage in colors that match the rest of the guide sign (usually white on green).  I am not in favor of warning sign colors.  In the very limited cases where these or construction colors are used to indicate changes in signing, the alterations in question pertain to regulatory rather than guide signs.

With the exception of emergency stop sign replacements and midnight-to-dawn field amendments of speed limit signs to reflect newly increased limits, I have never known signing changes to occur punctually.  It would not surprise me if even Massachusetts, with its well-organized freeway guide signing program, failed to remove the "Old Exit XX" plaques after two years.

Florida is still installing "Old Exit XX" in white on green in certain locations; I have a guide sign worksheet for it from the last five years.  New Jersey has also had a sign on the Garden State Parkway reading "To Former Exit 88" (color combination unknown).

I voted the same way.  Penn DOT did this in the most simple and clear way and there is no reason to do anything different.

I don't like FL's "Old 91C" example.  It really should say "Old Exit 91C" so that people know what it is referring to.

NJ has a harder situation becauase of the change in highway number.  It should probably just say "Old (95) Exit 3A" but in a green sign.  Additionally, what would help tremendously with the change in highway number and direction would be better use of control cities, on the highway mainline and on the side roads that lead to freeway entrances.  This change will be confusing, but the signs for I-295 north and west should all say Philadelphia, and in the other direction they should say Trenton until US 1 and then Princeton.  [Of course, even better would be just remumbering I-95 as a different number like I-695 as I mentioned on the relevant thread in the Northeast group.]

When Utah renumbered the exits on I-15 in the SLC area, I don’t think there was ever any “old exit” signage at all. They just stuck the new numbers on top of the old ones and called it good. Here’s one example. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/155771219@N08/38946452325/)

Those were renumbered not because of a switch from sequential to mileage based, but because the stretch of I-15 through Nephi, when it was built, turned out to be about 3 miles shorter than was originally planned, so the mileposts and exit numbers north of there were all 3 more than the actual mileage. As a result, when the renumbering happened, all the exit numbers decreased by 3 or 4.

Quote from: spooky on December 13, 2017, 03:11:15 PM

Quote from: Eth on December 13, 2017, 02:01:04 PM
Black and yellow might call more attention to it, sure, but is that desired? Why is the old number more important than the new number? It isn't, and it certainly doesn't constitute a warning (which is what black/yellow is for). It should be white on green just like any other exit number.

Also, I'd go with "OLD" just because it's simpler (and maybe just because it's what I remember seeing when Florida renumbered their exits 15 or 20 years ago).

Agreed on both counts. (although I didn't see OLD in Florida 15 or 20 years ago)

Excluding the Turnpike renumbering (1989), Florida's exit renumbering of limited-access roads didn't start until 2002.

Square tabs - kind of like Pennsylvania's - were the norm.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4760/24883043727_b399b41e66_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/DUQ6Zi)

While I like looking for exit numbers, I'm more likely to look for a route number or road name.

When I-86 became I-84 in CT north of Hartford the exit numbers were changed and they were black letters on white background and rectangle almost the length of the BGS sign.  of course that was the 1980s.

Quote from: roadguy2 on February 04, 2018, 12:36:11 AM
When Utah renumbered the exits on I-15 in the SLC area, I don't think there was ever any "old exit"  signage at all. They just stuck the new numbers on top of the old ones and called it good. Here's one example. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/155771219@N08/38946452325/)

Those were renumbered not because of a switch from sequential to mileage based, but because the stretch of I-15 through Nephi, when it was built, turned out to be about 3 miles shorter than was originally planned, so the mileposts and exit numbers north of there were all 3 more than the actual mileage. As a result, when the renumbering happened, all the exit numbers decreased by 3 or 4.

Now that I think about it, when the exits on I-690 in Syracuse were renumbered in the late 1980s there were no "old" or "formerly" signs, they just slapped the new exit numbers on the signs and called it a day.

Quote from: roadguy2 on February 04, 2018, 12:36:11 AM
When Utah renumbered the exits on I-15 in the SLC area, I don't think there was ever any "old exit"  signage at all. They just stuck the new numbers on top of the old ones and called it good. Here's one example. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/155771219@N08/38946452325/)

Those were renumbered not because of a switch from sequential to mileage based, but because the stretch of I-15 through Nephi, when it was built, turned out to be about 3 miles shorter than was originally planned, so the mileposts and exit numbers north of there were all 3 more than the actual mileage. As a result, when the renumbering happened, all the exit numbers decreased by 3 or 4.

As I recall.. Georgia just posted new exit numbers.. no indication of previous exit number

Z981