The logical progression from our blog (Gribblenation) on the history of the southern terminus of US Route 91 leads directly into the construction of Interstate 15 through the Mojave Desert. Interstate 15 north of Barstow to the Nevada State Line was built to freeway standards relatively quickly as it was completed by 1965. This led to an odd circumstance where US 91 and US 466 lingered on with a multiplex of Interstate 15 to a terminus in Baker for many years. Interstate 15 north of Barstow to the Nevada State Line is a surprisingly busy rural corridor which actually can be quite scenic as it traverses the heart of the Mojave Desert.
https://www.gribblenation.org/2021/04/interstate-15-mojave-freeway-from.html?m=1
This subject keeps getting brought up the Las Vegas Mayor and now tourism officials. I say good keep putting pressure on caltrans to widen this damned thing! Hell I'd argue for 8 lanes but I will be more than happy with 6.
Still, I don't think problems will be solved until they address the agricultural checkpoint which needs to be be completely removed for non commercial traffic.
https://news3lv.com/newsletter-daily/tourism-officials-say-california-nevada-border-traffic-jams-need-to-be-addressed
They have really improved the Ag checkpoint these days. But the checkpoint is important to California agriculture. I used to think it wasn't, then I gave this episode of Gastropod a listen (actually, I think it was while driving I-15 to Vegas). https://gastropod.com/chocpocalypse-now-quarantine-and-the-future-of-food/
Quote from: cahwyguy on October 17, 2021, 03:17:05 PM
They have really improved the Ag checkpoint these days. But the checkpoint is important to California agriculture. I used to think it wasn't, then I gave this episode of Gastropod a listen (actually, I think it was while driving I-15 to Vegas). https://gastropod.com/chocpocalypse-now-quarantine-and-the-future-of-food/
I get why it is with commercial traffic given the diseases which can be carried in produce. That being said the amount of risk with produce being carried in a passenger vehicle (if any) is nominal to non-existent. For the most part I would probably say I've just been waved through at about 95% of agriculture checkpoints on California State Highways. I don't see the point in stopping or slowing passenger traffic on I-15 when a grace separated agricultural station for commercial vehicles exists at the new facility. California is the only state that does things like this with agricultural checkpoints.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 17, 2021, 03:55:42 PM
Quote from: cahwyguy on October 17, 2021, 03:17:05 PM
They have really improved the Ag checkpoint these days. But the checkpoint is important to California agriculture. I used to think it wasn't, then I gave this episode of Gastropod a listen (actually, I think it was while driving I-15 to Vegas). https://gastropod.com/chocpocalypse-now-quarantine-and-the-future-of-food/
I get why it is with commercial traffic given the diseases which can be carried in produce. That being said the amount of risk with produce being carried in a passenger vehicle (if any) is nominal to non-existent. For the most part I would probably say I’ve just been waved through at about 95% of agriculture checkpoints on California State Highways. I don’t see the point in stopping or slowing passenger traffic on I-15 when a grace separated agricultural station for commercial vehicles exists at the new facility. California is the only state that does things like this with agricultural checkpoints.
As I said, listen to the podcast. Passenger vehicles are less of a concern, but if you are from out of state, they may flag you. Of larger concern are RVs and pickup trucks carrying things, which wouldn't fall under the commercial vehicle rubric. All it takes is one or two pests to destroy the entire industry, so they are careful.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 17, 2021, 03:55:42 PM
For the most part I would probably say I've just been waved through at about 95% of agriculture checkpoints on California State Highways. I don't see the point in stopping or slowing passenger traffic on I-15 when a grace separated agricultural station for commercial vehicles exists at the new facility. California is the only state that does things like this with agricultural checkpoints.
You have CA plates. You're much more likely to be stopped with out-of-state plates. I've always been questioned with non-CA plates, but now that I have CA plates I get waved through every time. The questioning isn't any more thorough than a couple quick questions. But I get it with how important and varied California agriculture is to the economy, both state and national.
Florida also operates agriculture inspection stations. I believe Arizona once had one on I-40 coming from New Mexico. Hawaii is also strict with agriculture imports, but it's not like anyone is driving there.
I drove through dozens of times with Oklahoma plated and never once stopped or even questioned.
Quote from: skluth on October 17, 2021, 04:57:10 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 17, 2021, 03:55:42 PM
For the most part I would probably say I've just been waved through at about 95% of agriculture checkpoints on California State Highways. I don't see the point in stopping or slowing passenger traffic on I-15 when a grace separated agricultural station for commercial vehicles exists at the new facility. California is the only state that does things like this with agricultural checkpoints.
You have CA plates. You're much more likely to be stopped with out-of-state plates. I've always been questioned with non-CA plates, but now that I have CA plates I get waved through every time. The questioning isn't any more thorough than a couple quick questions. But I get it with how important and varied California agriculture is to the economy, both state and national.
Florida also operates agriculture inspection stations. I believe Arizona once had one on I-40 coming from New Mexico. Hawaii is also strict with agriculture imports, but it's not like anyone is driving there.
Amusingly the majority of my state crossings was when I was an Arizona resident with Arizona plates. Prior to moving to California I actually worked here twice circa 2007-2010 and 2011-2013. I lived in Florida from 2014-2016 which is why I had said state in mind with how the agricultural inspections are handled differently off grade with commercial vehicles. I can see the merits of just putting a station in the middle of the road on roads US 199 and CA 139 given the low traffic counts. I-15 is obviously having a traffic issue which is only being worsened by the antiquated practice of stopping/slowing passenger vehicles at the agricultural inspection station.
https://www.fox5vegas.com/news/las-vegas-mayor-again-calls-for-i-15-widening-amid-ca-port-hour-expansion/article_2a7f4d56-2d06-11ec-bdd9-b771644b48d3.html
Las Vegas Mayor Goodman suggested that in addition to the frustration of weekly traffic delays, I-15 improvements are also needed as result of expanding operating hours at the Port of Los Angeles.
QuoteMayor of Las Vegas Carolyn Goodman on Thursday again called for the widening of the Interstate 15 between the Nevada state line and Barstow. Goodman's renewed push comes following Wednesday's announcement that President Joe Biden's administration helped facilitate the ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach to operate around the clock, seven days a week.
"This is a big first step in speeding up the movement of materials and goods through our supply chain," said Biden.
Now, weekends are among the times that port activity will be open. Weekends are when the I-15 is often the busiest with congestion. ...
FOX5 spoke to the California Department of Transportation's communications officials Thursday, and they said they have no plans to fix it. Instead, they are hoping the pending high-speed railway will improve things.
"Currently Caltrans does not have any projects on the books so to speak to build any widening or anything that would address traffic specifically at state line," said Terri Kasinga, chief of public and media affairs for Caltrans.
Goodman hopes to go over California's officials heads by getting Washington involved.
"Only the president has the power to say, 'Yes, we'll have an environmental study,' but 'Yes, I want this done now,' and, 'Yes, I want this done quickly, because of all this freight,'" said Goodman.
She's pleading with Nevada Congresswoman Dina Titus get the U.S. Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg on her side with this.
"She is very, very much in leadership for transportation. So my hope is she'll sit down with our Secretary Buttigieg, and then the president, and move this," said Goodman.
A coupe of days ago I drove from LA to OKC taking a detour route along I-15 going through Las Vegas and then south via 93 to I-40. I can't recall that I've ever seen as many semis the entire way it was insane. So many semis broken down on the shoulder, packed the lots were at fuel and truck stations, I witnessed a homeowner and a semi truck in a fight in Oklahoma given the fact the semi driver appeared to just park in his driveway.
Lots of rude people as well. The holidays are going to be fun this year.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 17, 2021, 06:27:17 PM
A coupe of days ago I drove from LA to OKC taking a detour route along I-15 going through Las Vegas and then south via 93 to I-40. I can't recall that I've ever seen as many semis the entire way it was insane. So many semis broken down on the shoulder, packed the lots were at fuel and truck stations, I witnessed a homeowner and a semi truck in a fight in Oklahoma given the fact the semi driver appeared to just park in his driveway.
Lots of rude people as well. The holidays are going to be fun this year.
Stands to reason, that corridor was hugely desirable for an upgrade over the old Hoover Dam alignment. I still remember the Hoover Dam truck detour post 9/11 required using AZ 68, NV 163 and US 95 before the Pat Tillman Bridge was completed.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 17, 2021, 06:41:29 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 17, 2021, 06:27:17 PM
A coupe of days ago I drove from LA to OKC taking a detour route along I-15 going through Las Vegas and then south via 93 to I-40. I can't recall that I've ever seen as many semis the entire way it was insane. So many semis broken down on the shoulder, packed the lots were at fuel and truck stations, I witnessed a homeowner and a semi truck in a fight in Oklahoma given the fact the semi driver appeared to just park in his driveway.
Lots of rude people as well. The holidays are going to be fun this year.
Stands to reason, that corridor was hugely desirable for an upgrade over the old Hoover Dam alignment. I still remember the Hoover Dam truck detour post 9/11 required using AZ 68, NV 163 and US 95 before the Pat Tillman Bridge was completed.
WOW! I had no clue there was a detour during that but it makes sense I guess. That probably was not fun at all. I know this isn't popular but I wish we'd see some more roads even if just two lanes built around the Grand Canyon and Vegas.
Quote from: skluth on October 17, 2021, 04:57:10 PM
Florida also operates agriculture inspection stations.
Florida's is a bit different than California's checkpoints. I've never been to a CA one, but it seems like that all vehicles have to slow down approaching one, and either stop at one or manually get waived over, and it's only in the direction entering CA. I've driven past the one on I-75 (MM 445) everytime entering the state, and never had to stop, as passenger cars without a trailer don't have to. Also, at least the one on I-75, there's a inspection check in both directions of I-75, not just southbound.
Yeah I never stopped at an agricultural station in Florida and I've driven in on I-10 and 75.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 17, 2021, 06:49:49 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 17, 2021, 06:41:29 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 17, 2021, 06:27:17 PM
A coupe of days ago I drove from LA to OKC taking a detour route along I-15 going through Las Vegas and then south via 93 to I-40. I can't recall that I've ever seen as many semis the entire way it was insane. So many semis broken down on the shoulder, packed the lots were at fuel and truck stations, I witnessed a homeowner and a semi truck in a fight in Oklahoma given the fact the semi driver appeared to just park in his driveway.
Lots of rude people as well. The holidays are going to be fun this year.
Stands to reason, that corridor was hugely desirable for an upgrade over the old Hoover Dam alignment. I still remember the Hoover Dam truck detour post 9/11 required using AZ 68, NV 163 and US 95 before the Pat Tillman Bridge was completed.
WOW! I had no clue there was a detour during that but it makes sense I guess. That probably was not fun at all. I know this isn't popular but I wish we'd see some more roads even if just two lanes built around the Grand Canyon and Vegas.
Yes, trucks over the Hoover Dam were banned pretty quickly post 9/11. That led to a ton of development on AZ 68, NV 163 and US 95 given they were suddenly the truck route. The security checkpoint over the Hoover Dam in 2001 during approaching New Years Eve took about 3-4 hours for passenger vehicles to traverse. Coupled with fact most of US 93 was two lanes north of Wickenburg back then made for one of the most miserable drives of my life.
Just recently (a couple of weeks ago), I drove from Vegas to visit my parents in Riverside. I got waved through the Ag checkpoint, and it looked like they were doing that to all non-commercial vehicles. At least from what I could tell. I don't think it was just my Colorado license plates.
Quote from: Mark68 on October 27, 2021, 07:17:18 PM
Just recently (a couple of weeks ago), I drove from Vegas to visit my parents in Riverside. I got waved through the Ag checkpoint, and it looked like they were doing that to all non-commercial vehicles. At least from what I could tell. I don't think it was just my Colorado license plates.
They're less vigilant in protecting our California cannabis industry despite your being from Colorado ;-)
Quote from: skluth on October 28, 2021, 10:02:04 PM
Quote from: Mark68 on October 27, 2021, 07:17:18 PM
Just recently (a couple of weeks ago), I drove from Vegas to visit my parents in Riverside. I got waved through the Ag checkpoint, and it looked like they were doing that to all non-commercial vehicles. At least from what I could tell. I don't think it was just my Colorado license plates.
They're less vigilant in protecting our California cannabis industry despite your being from Colorado ;-)
Since we were first and all... :bigass:
Quote from: andy3175 on October 17, 2021, 06:10:39 PM
https://www.fox5vegas.com/news/las-vegas-mayor-again-calls-for-i-15-widening-amid-ca-port-hour-expansion/article_2a7f4d56-2d06-11ec-bdd9-b771644b48d3.html
Las Vegas Mayor Goodman suggested that in addition to the frustration of weekly traffic delays, I-15 improvements are also needed as result of expanding operating hours at the Port of Los Angeles.
QuoteMayor of Las Vegas Carolyn Goodman on Thursday again called for the widening of the Interstate 15 between the Nevada state line and Barstow. Goodman's renewed push comes following Wednesday's announcement that President Joe Biden's administration helped facilitate the ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach to operate around the clock, seven days a week.
"This is a big first step in speeding up the movement of materials and goods through our supply chain," said Biden.
Now, weekends are among the times that port activity will be open. Weekends are when the I-15 is often the busiest with congestion. ...
FOX5 spoke to the California Department of Transportation's communications officials Thursday, and they said they have no plans to fix it. Instead, they are hoping the pending high-speed railway will improve things.
"Currently Caltrans does not have any projects on the books so to speak to build any widening or anything that would address traffic specifically at state line," said Terri Kasinga, chief of public and media affairs for Caltrans.
Goodman hopes to go over California's officials heads by getting Washington involved.
"Only the president has the power to say, 'Yes, we'll have an environmental study,' but 'Yes, I want this done now,' and, 'Yes, I want this done quickly, because of all this freight,'" said Goodman.
She's pleading with Nevada Congresswoman Dina Titus get the U.S. Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg on her side with this.
"She is very, very much in leadership for transportation. So my hope is she'll sit down with our Secretary Buttigieg, and then the president, and move this," said Goodman.
I agree with Mayor Goodman, the improvements on I-15 are really needed to better facilitate the ever-increasing traffic between Las Vegas and Los Angeles/San Diego. Sure, high-speed rail would also be a great thing to have, but I'd rather have I-15 worked on first.
This is the sort of comment that almost certainly belongs in Fictional, but if there is that much traffic between SoCal and Vegas, obviously with travelers with $$$ for a weekend of fun...Why hasn't any Public and/or Private Interests funded a Toll Road/Turnpike parallel to I-15 from the CA/NV state line to at least Barstow? Or even from the state line and following a more southerly route to get to I-40 SW of Vegas?
I'm sure there are limited places to cross the mountains, but if a parallel Toll Road has the traffic volumes because the free alternative is way overcapacity, why is there no "Alternate" proposals out there, other than the High Speed Train?
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 01, 2021, 05:35:21 PM
This is the sort of comment that almost certainly belongs in Fictional, but if there is that much traffic between SoCal and Vegas, obviously with travelers with $$$ for a weekend of fun...Why hasn't any Public and/or Private Interests funded a Toll Road/Turnpike parallel to I-15 from the CA/NV state line to at least Barstow? Or even from the state line and following a more southerly route to get to I-40 SW of Vegas?
I'm sure there are limited places to cross the mountains, but if a parallel Toll Road has the traffic volumes because the free alternative is way overcapacity, why is there no "Alternate" proposals out there, other than the High Speed Train?
In terms of the terrain you are correct the options are incredibly limited. The Arrowhead Trail originally followed the corridor of what is now US 95 before shifting to the vicinity of what became US 91 via the "Silver Lake Cut-off." Much of the Mojave Desert of San Bernardino County since the construction of I-15 has been incorporated either into National Monuments of the Mojave National Preserve. Suffice to say anything but the current corridor of I-15 has substantial red tape around it for development prospects.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 01, 2021, 05:44:57 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 01, 2021, 05:35:21 PM
This is the sort of comment that almost certainly belongs in Fictional, but if there is that much traffic between SoCal and Vegas, obviously with travelers with $$$ for a weekend of fun...Why hasn't any Public and/or Private Interests funded a Toll Road/Turnpike parallel to I-15 from the CA/NV state line to at least Barstow? Or even from the state line and following a more southerly route to get to I-40 SW of Vegas?
I'm sure there are limited places to cross the mountains, but if a parallel Toll Road has the traffic volumes because the free alternative is way overcapacity, why is there no "Alternate" proposals out there, other than the High Speed Train?
In terms of the terrain you are correct the options are incredibly limited. The Arrowhead Trail originally followed the corridor of what is now US 95 before shifting to the vicinity of what became US 91 via the "Silver Lake Cut-off." Much of the Mojave Desert of San Bernardino County since the construction of I-15 has been incorporated either into National Monuments of the Mojave National Preserve. Suffice to say anything but the current corridor of I-15 has substantial red tape around it for development prospects.
As to why there aren't any toll alternatives: I'd speculate that the high demand only really exists on holiday weekends (and maybe some regular weekends) when there is significant travel activity between SoCal and Vegas. Outside of that, traffic volumes are likely reasonable given typical rural interstate characteristics in the west. Nobody would use a toll facility in most normal circumstances when the free route is more than adequate. There'd be little justification to build a separate toll road–or even a separate tolled express lane–under those circumstances.
Quote from: roadfro on November 02, 2021, 11:12:31 AM
As to why there aren't any toll alternatives: I'd speculate that the high demand only really exists on holiday weekends (and maybe some regular weekends) when there is significant travel activity between SoCal and Vegas. Outside of that, traffic volumes are likely reasonable given typical rural interstate characteristics in the west. Nobody would use a toll facility in most normal circumstances when the free route is more than adequate. There'd be little justification to build a separate toll road–or even a separate tolled express lane–under those circumstances.
Unless you are a Casino/Resort who wants to make it more attractive for SoCal residents to head to Vegas and throw a few grand around
I've never made the LA-Vegas drive, but I have heard horror stories of how bad the traffic jam is every Sunday. No idea if the stories are hammed up or if there is any/some truth to them
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 02, 2021, 11:25:52 AM
Quote from: roadfro on November 02, 2021, 11:12:31 AM
As to why there aren't any toll alternatives: I'd speculate that the high demand only really exists on holiday weekends (and maybe some regular weekends) when there is significant travel activity between SoCal and Vegas. Outside of that, traffic volumes are likely reasonable given typical rural interstate characteristics in the west. Nobody would use a toll facility in most normal circumstances when the free route is more than adequate. There'd be little justification to build a separate toll road–or even a separate tolled express lane–under those circumstances.
Unless you are a Casino/Resort who wants to make it more attractive for SoCal residents to head to Vegas and throw a few grand around
I've never made the LA-Vegas drive, but I have heard horror stories of how bad the traffic jam is every Sunday. No idea if the stories are hammed up or if there is any/some truth to them
Having driven back from Vegas numerous times on weekends it can match the hype that you hear frequently sited. I would compare it to how bad I-17 gets southbound from Flagstaff on weekends. If you able the best bet is to just use the corridor on a weekday or use an alternative route. Fortunately being in Fresno these days affords me the option bypass I-15 completely via Death Valley or by way or Tioga Pass and US 95 in the summer.
One other factor limiting I-15 traffic volumes north of Barstow, at least at the beginnings of weekends, is the afternoon traffic jam going up Cajon Pass. Most of that traffic is only going as far as Victorville and other exurbs. It still means a lot of cars heading to LV, but I think a lot of the problems north of Barstow are exasperated by drivers having different thoughts of the proper speed to drive on I-15.
Quote from: skluth on November 02, 2021, 03:49:21 PM
One other factor limiting I-15 traffic volumes north of Barstow, at least at the beginnings of weekends, is the afternoon traffic jam going up Cajon Pass. Most of that traffic is only going as far as Victorville and other exurbs. It still means a lot of cars heading to LV, but I think a lot of the problems north of Barstow are exasperated by drivers having different thoughts of the proper speed to drive on I-15.
The problem between Vegas and Barstow (and, for that matter on to Victorville) is that people come to Vegas on their own schedule, but everyone leaves on Sunday! ... and I-15 to CASR-58 is
basically the only way from Vegas to most of California.
Quote from: michravera on November 02, 2021, 04:15:06 PM
Quote from: skluth on November 02, 2021, 03:49:21 PM
One other factor limiting I-15 traffic volumes north of Barstow, at least at the beginnings of weekends, is the afternoon traffic jam going up Cajon Pass. Most of that traffic is only going as far as Victorville and other exurbs. It still means a lot of cars heading to LV, but I think a lot of the problems north of Barstow are exasperated by drivers having different thoughts of the proper speed to drive on I-15.
The problem between Vegas and Barstow (and, for that matter on to Victorville) is that people come to Vegas on their own schedule, but everyone leaves on Sunday! ... and I-15 to CASR-58 is basically the only way from Vegas to most of California.
I'm kind of surprised more people from Los Angeles don't try the Death Valley-Panamint Valley through Trona to get towards CA 14 via Garlock Road. It totally works as an alternate but you have to have a working knowledge of some non-State Highways given a GPS will never decide on said cutoff.
I'm about to go off the Fictional Deep end...so would a Tolling interest ever consider building a One Way Toll Road? If the issue is only SW-bound out of Vegas to SoCal...how about a One Way potential solution?
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 02, 2021, 06:29:06 PM
I'm about to go off the Fictional Deep end...so would a Tolling interest ever consider building a One Way Toll Road? If the issue is only SW-bound out of Vegas to SoCal...how about a One Way potential solution?
Unlikely. Nevada isn't the problem pertaining to expansion of I-15, it's just California. The real issue is Barstow-Nevada State Line.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 02, 2021, 06:32:48 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 02, 2021, 06:29:06 PM
I'm about to go off the Fictional Deep end...so would a Tolling interest ever consider building a One Way Toll Road? If the issue is only SW-bound out of Vegas to SoCal...how about a One Way potential solution?
Unlikely. Nevada isn't the problem pertaining to expansion of I-15, it's just California. The real issue is Barstow-Nevada State Line.
Exactly. And SW direction is the problem, in California, generally on Sundays or the end of long Holiday weekends. A One Way solution would be cheaper and would require less "space" to sneak around/thru/under a mountain, completely hypothetically speaking
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 02, 2021, 06:29:06 PM
I'm about to go off the Fictional Deep end...so would a Tolling interest ever consider building a One Way Toll Road? If the issue is only SW-bound out of Vegas to SoCal...how about a One Way potential solution?
Australia had a one-way freeway for many years.
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 02, 2021, 06:40:46 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 02, 2021, 06:32:48 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 02, 2021, 06:29:06 PM
I'm about to go off the Fictional Deep end...so would a Tolling interest ever consider building a One Way Toll Road? If the issue is only SW-bound out of Vegas to SoCal...how about a One Way potential solution?
Unlikely. Nevada isn't the problem pertaining to expansion of I-15, it's just California. The real issue is Barstow-Nevada State Line.
Exactly. And SW direction is the problem, in California, generally on Sundays or the end of long Holiday weekends. A One Way solution would be cheaper and would require less "space" to sneak around/thru/under a mountain, completely hypothetically speaking
While I can see where you are going I've been running under the assumption that eventually the pressure on California to accommodate what Las Vegas wants with I-15 will eventually prevail. There is simply too much money and commerce moving on the corridor of I-15 north of Barstow to ignore forever. If CA 58 east of Bakersfield can get a full four lanes and most of CA 99 can get rebuilt then there is hope for I-15.
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 02, 2021, 06:40:46 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 02, 2021, 06:32:48 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 02, 2021, 06:29:06 PM
I'm about to go off the Fictional Deep end...so would a Tolling interest ever consider building a One Way Toll Road? If the issue is only SW-bound out of Vegas to SoCal...how about a One Way potential solution?
Unlikely. Nevada isn't the problem pertaining to expansion of I-15, it's just California. The real issue is Barstow-Nevada State Line.
Exactly. And SW direction is the problem, in California, generally on Sundays or the end of long Holiday weekends. A One Way solution would be cheaper and would require less "space" to sneak around/thru/under a mountain, completely hypothetically speaking
The problem is all because I-15 is 3 Lanes in Nevada, but the third lane drops at Primm right before the state line. I wonder if it would help if CalTrans widened I-15 southbound just to the agriculture checkpoint–that's a natural choke point anyway, and if they actually stopped passenger cars then it would act somewhat as a meter feeding back in to two lanes.
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 01, 2021, 05:35:21 PM
This is the sort of comment that almost certainly belongs in Fictional, but if there is that much traffic between SoCal and Vegas, obviously with travelers with $$$ for a weekend of fun...Why hasn't any Public and/or Private Interests funded a Toll Road/Turnpike parallel to I-15 from the CA/NV state line to at least Barstow? Or even from the state line and following a more southerly route to get to I-40 SW of Vegas?
I'm sure there are limited places to cross the mountains, but if a parallel Toll Road has the traffic volumes because the free alternative is way overcapacity, why is there no "Alternate" proposals out there, other than the High Speed Train?
Toll road: Hundreds of millions, perhaps billions of dollars; would require acquisition of right of way that would take years, if not decades.
Add a lane to I-15: Tens of millions of dollars. ROW already exists. In most places, there's plenty of existing level ground at the freeway without blasting any rock. At the very least, add a couple more uphill truck lanes in a couple of spots - the freeway between the state line and Barstow already has a few of these.
Quote from: DenverBrian on November 03, 2021, 02:08:31 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 01, 2021, 05:35:21 PM
This is the sort of comment that almost certainly belongs in Fictional, but if there is that much traffic between SoCal and Vegas, obviously with travelers with $$$ for a weekend of fun...Why hasn't any Public and/or Private Interests funded a Toll Road/Turnpike parallel to I-15 from the CA/NV state line to at least Barstow? Or even from the state line and following a more southerly route to get to I-40 SW of Vegas?
I'm sure there are limited places to cross the mountains, but if a parallel Toll Road has the traffic volumes because the free alternative is way overcapacity, why is there no "Alternate" proposals out there, other than the High Speed Train?
Toll road: Hundreds of millions, perhaps billions of dollars; would require acquisition of right of way that would take years, if not decades.
Add a lane to I-15: Tens of millions of dollars. ROW already exists. In most places, there's plenty of existing level ground at the freeway without blasting any rock. At the very least, add a couple more uphill truck lanes in a couple of spots - the freeway between the state line and Barstow already has a few of these.
I'd say adding a lane each way would likely cost north of a hundred mil but while they're at it ideally just reconstruct the entire freeway to concrete and replace bridges. Spend a couple billion on it so you don't have to touch it for half a century at least. That includes four lanes each way on incline and declines for trucks. One can dream but I'd be thrilled if it was at least 3 lanes each way.
QuoteI'd say adding a lane each way would likely cost north of a hundred mil but while they're at it ideally just reconstruct the entire freeway to concrete and replace bridges. Spend a couple billion on it so you don't have to touch it for half a century at least. That includes four lanes each way on incline and declines for trucks. One can dream but I'd be thrilled if it was at least 3 lanes each way.
It would certainly be much cheaper than trying to construct a separate tollway through the area.
Plutonic Panda's approach strikes me as the correct one.
Rick
Quote from: nexus73 on November 03, 2021, 08:48:56 PM
Plutonic Panda's approach strikes me as the correct one.
Rick
It certainly is...but someone has to convince CalTrans of that
A separate, alternate Tollway is merely a mental exercise on the assumption that CalTrans will throw its foot down and refuse to upgrade/widen I-15 between Nevada and Barstow, which they have done to this point
Quote from: nexus73 on November 03, 2021, 08:48:56 PM
Plutonic Panda's approach strikes me as the correct one.
Rick
Ditto.
Quote from: roadfro on November 02, 2021, 10:33:05 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 02, 2021, 06:40:46 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 02, 2021, 06:32:48 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 02, 2021, 06:29:06 PM
I'm about to go off the Fictional Deep end...so would a Tolling interest ever consider building a One Way Toll Road? If the issue is only SW-bound out of Vegas to SoCal...how about a One Way potential solution?
Unlikely. Nevada isn't the problem pertaining to expansion of I-15, it's just California. The real issue is Barstow-Nevada State Line.
Exactly. And SW direction is the problem, in California, generally on Sundays or the end of long Holiday weekends. A One Way solution would be cheaper and would require less "space" to sneak around/thru/under a mountain, completely hypothetically speaking
The problem is all because I-15 is 3 Lanes in Nevada, but the third lane drops at Primm right before the state line. I wonder if it would help if CalTrans widened I-15 southbound just to the agriculture checkpoint–that's a natural choke point anyway, and if they actually stopped passenger cars then it would act somewhat as a meter feeding back in to two lanes.
Southbound, it would be about 5¾ miles of widening needed between the state line and where it opens up to at least 3 lanes just before the ag checkpoint. After the ag checkpoint, it is 3 lanes for the next 9 miles until the other side of Mountain Pass. That 5 ¾ mile gap would probably be the easiest starting point towards the improvement of this route.
Quote from: jdbx on November 04, 2021, 01:25:27 PM
Quote from: roadfro on November 02, 2021, 10:33:05 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 02, 2021, 06:40:46 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 02, 2021, 06:32:48 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 02, 2021, 06:29:06 PM
I'm about to go off the Fictional Deep end...so would a Tolling interest ever consider building a One Way Toll Road? If the issue is only SW-bound out of Vegas to SoCal...how about a One Way potential solution?
Unlikely. Nevada isn't the problem pertaining to expansion of I-15, it's just California. The real issue is Barstow-Nevada State Line.
Exactly. And SW direction is the problem, in California, generally on Sundays or the end of long Holiday weekends. A One Way solution would be cheaper and would require less "space" to sneak around/thru/under a mountain, completely hypothetically speaking
The problem is all because I-15 is 3 Lanes in Nevada, but the third lane drops at Primm right before the state line. I wonder if it would help if CalTrans widened I-15 southbound just to the agriculture checkpoint–that's a natural choke point anyway, and if they actually stopped passenger cars then it would act somewhat as a meter feeding back in to two lanes.
Southbound, it would be about 5¾ miles of widening needed between the state line and where it opens up to at least 3 lanes just before the ag checkpoint. After the ag checkpoint, it is 3 lanes for the next 9 miles until the other side of Mountain Pass. That 5 ¾ mile gap would probably be the easiest starting point towards the improvement of this route.
The Ag station, as others have mentioned, serves as a natural metering station. It seems, as an interim measure, if I know the terrain as I think that I do, "OK TO DRIVE ON SHOULDER SUNDAYS (AND MONDAY HOLIDAYS) 10:00-17:00" sign for that section would provide great relief.... Add a couple of "SHOULDER LANE MUST EXIT" signs and we're there.
Quote from: michravera on November 04, 2021, 02:34:35 PM
Quote from: jdbx on November 04, 2021, 01:25:27 PM
Quote from: roadfro on November 02, 2021, 10:33:05 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 02, 2021, 06:40:46 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 02, 2021, 06:32:48 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 02, 2021, 06:29:06 PM
I'm about to go off the Fictional Deep end...so would a Tolling interest ever consider building a One Way Toll Road? If the issue is only SW-bound out of Vegas to SoCal...how about a One Way potential solution?
Unlikely. Nevada isn't the problem pertaining to expansion of I-15, it's just California. The real issue is Barstow-Nevada State Line.
Exactly. And SW direction is the problem, in California, generally on Sundays or the end of long Holiday weekends. A One Way solution would be cheaper and would require less "space" to sneak around/thru/under a mountain, completely hypothetically speaking
The problem is all because I-15 is 3 Lanes in Nevada, but the third lane drops at Primm right before the state line. I wonder if it would help if CalTrans widened I-15 southbound just to the agriculture checkpoint–that's a natural choke point anyway, and if they actually stopped passenger cars then it would act somewhat as a meter feeding back in to two lanes.
Southbound, it would be about 5¾ miles of widening needed between the state line and where it opens up to at least 3 lanes just before the ag checkpoint. After the ag checkpoint, it is 3 lanes for the next 9 miles until the other side of Mountain Pass. That 5 ¾ mile gap would probably be the easiest starting point towards the improvement of this route.
The Ag station, as others have mentioned, serves as a natural metering station. It seems, as an interim measure, if I know the terrain as I think that I do, "OK TO DRIVE ON SHOULDER SUNDAYS (AND MONDAY HOLIDAYS) 10:00-17:00" sign for that section would provide great relief.... Add a couple of "SHOULDER LANE MUST EXIT" signs and we're there.
Unfortunately, it's probably not that simple. Shoulders typically don't have the same structural section (pavement and subbase depth) as the mainline roadway since they were not intended to be driven on constantly, particularly by trucks; they're also usually narrower than a standard lane. This arose recently in my neck of the woods with a proposal to use the freeway shoulder as a rush hour bus lane. Caltrans and CHP typically don't like to lose a shoulder since they provide a place for disabled vehicles to get out of the way and also a "lane" for incident response. With I-15, if you end up having to reconstruct the shoulders and factoring in the costs that go along with that, it's probably better to just bite the bullet and build the third lane since real estate in the median is plentiful. For that corridor, other than some small bridge and culvert widenings, it's likely a pretty straightforward paving project.
Quote from: heynow415 on November 05, 2021, 11:18:34 AM
Quote from: michravera on November 04, 2021, 02:34:35 PM
Quote from: jdbx on November 04, 2021, 01:25:27 PM
Quote from: roadfro on November 02, 2021, 10:33:05 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 02, 2021, 06:40:46 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 02, 2021, 06:32:48 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 02, 2021, 06:29:06 PM
I'm about to go off the Fictional Deep end...so would a Tolling interest ever consider building a One Way Toll Road? If the issue is only SW-bound out of Vegas to SoCal...how about a One Way potential solution?
Unlikely. Nevada isn't the problem pertaining to expansion of I-15, it's just California. The real issue is Barstow-Nevada State Line.
Exactly. And SW direction is the problem, in California, generally on Sundays or the end of long Holiday weekends. A One Way solution would be cheaper and would require less "space" to sneak around/thru/under a mountain, completely hypothetically speaking
The problem is all because I-15 is 3 Lanes in Nevada, but the third lane drops at Primm right before the state line. I wonder if it would help if CalTrans widened I-15 southbound just to the agriculture checkpoint–that's a natural choke point anyway, and if they actually stopped passenger cars then it would act somewhat as a meter feeding back in to two lanes.
Southbound, it would be about 5¾ miles of widening needed between the state line and where it opens up to at least 3 lanes just before the ag checkpoint. After the ag checkpoint, it is 3 lanes for the next 9 miles until the other side of Mountain Pass. That 5 ¾ mile gap would probably be the easiest starting point towards the improvement of this route.
The Ag station, as others have mentioned, serves as a natural metering station. It seems, as an interim measure, if I know the terrain as I think that I do, "OK TO DRIVE ON SHOULDER SUNDAYS (AND MONDAY HOLIDAYS) 10:00-17:00" sign for that section would provide great relief.... Add a couple of "SHOULDER LANE MUST EXIT" signs and we're there.
Unfortunately, it's probably not that simple. Shoulders typically don't have the same structural section (pavement and subbase depth) as the mainline roadway since they were not intended to be driven on constantly, particularly by trucks; they're also usually narrower than a standard lane. This arose recently in my neck of the woods with a proposal to use the freeway shoulder as a rush hour bus lane. Caltrans and CHP typically don't like to lose a shoulder since they provide a place for disabled vehicles to get out of the way and also a "lane" for incident response. With I-15, if you end up having to reconstruct the shoulders and factoring in the costs that go along with that, it's probably better to just bite the bullet and build the third lane since real estate in the median is plentiful. For that corridor, other than some small bridge and culvert widenings, it's likely a pretty straightforward paving project.
OK: "VEHICLES LESS THAN 3 TONS MAY USE SHOULDER ...". As I said "an interim measure". It won't work forever because we'd have cars passing trucks on the right, etc.
The big problem with a paving project is that it typically reduces capacity during the widening. I don't think that a contractor could get the whole thing done between MLK Day and Presidents' Day (because you can't count on the whether at that time of year), maybe some years between Presidents' Day and traditional Spring Break (whether would be better then, also). If you think that it could be done in 3 or 4 weeks, I'd wonder why it hasn't been done already. Any other time of year or longer duration and things get badly disrupted.
What typically happens is that they end up building a third carriageway unto which to route the traffic while they are widening. This adds quite a lot to the cost -- Not just materials, but work effort.
Mod Edit: Fixed quotes –Roadfro
Quote from: michravera on November 05, 2021, 11:51:42 AM
Quote from: heynow415 on November 05, 2021, 11:18:34 AM
Quote from: michravera on November 04, 2021, 02:34:35 PM
Quote from: jdbx on November 04, 2021, 01:25:27 PM
Quote from: roadfro on November 02, 2021, 10:33:05 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 02, 2021, 06:40:46 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 02, 2021, 06:32:48 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 02, 2021, 06:29:06 PM
I'm about to go off the Fictional Deep end...so would a Tolling interest ever consider building a One Way Toll Road? If the issue is only SW-bound out of Vegas to SoCal...how about a One Way potential solution?
Unlikely. Nevada isn't the problem pertaining to expansion of I-15, it's just California. The real issue is Barstow-Nevada State Line.
Exactly. And SW direction is the problem, in California, generally on Sundays or the end of long Holiday weekends. A One Way solution would be cheaper and would require less "space" to sneak around/thru/under a mountain, completely hypothetically speaking
The problem is all because I-15 is 3 Lanes in Nevada, but the third lane drops at Primm right before the state line. I wonder if it would help if CalTrans widened I-15 southbound just to the agriculture checkpoint–that's a natural choke point anyway, and if they actually stopped passenger cars then it would act somewhat as a meter feeding back in to two lanes.
Southbound, it would be about 5¾ miles of widening needed between the state line and where it opens up to at least 3 lanes just before the ag checkpoint. After the ag checkpoint, it is 3 lanes for the next 9 miles until the other side of Mountain Pass. That 5 ¾ mile gap would probably be the easiest starting point towards the improvement of this route.
The Ag station, as others have mentioned, serves as a natural metering station. It seems, as an interim measure, if I know the terrain as I think that I do, "OK TO DRIVE ON SHOULDER SUNDAYS (AND MONDAY HOLIDAYS) 10:00-17:00" sign for that section would provide great relief.... Add a couple of "SHOULDER LANE MUST EXIT" signs and we're there.
Unfortunately, it's probably not that simple. Shoulders typically don't have the same structural section (pavement and subbase depth) as the mainline roadway since they were not intended to be driven on constantly, particularly by trucks; they're also usually narrower than a standard lane. This arose recently in my neck of the woods with a proposal to use the freeway shoulder as a rush hour bus lane. Caltrans and CHP typically don't like to lose a shoulder since they provide a place for disabled vehicles to get out of the way and also a "lane" for incident response. With I-15, if you end up having to reconstruct the shoulders and factoring in the costs that go along with that, it's probably better to just bite the bullet and build the third lane since real estate in the median is plentiful. For that corridor, other than some small bridge and culvert widenings, it's likely a pretty straightforward paving project.
OK: "VEHICLES LESS THAN 3 TONS MAY USE SHOULDER ...". As I said "an interim measure". It won't work forever because we'd have cars passing trucks on the right, etc.
The big problem with a paving project is that it typically reduces capacity during the widening. I don't think that a contractor could get the whole thing done between MLK Day and Presidents' Day (because you can't count on the whether at that time of year), maybe some years between Presidents' Day and traditional Spring Break (whether would be better then, also). If you think that it could be done in 3 or 4 weeks, I'd wonder why it hasn't been done already. Any other time of year or longer duration and things get badly disrupted.
What typically happens is that they end up building a third carriageway unto which to route the traffic while they are widening. This adds quite a lot to the cost -- Not just materials, but work effort.
Caltrans is allowing Richard Branson to run his rail to Las Vegas in the median (https://dot.ca.gov/caltrans-near-me/district-8/district-8-news/caltrans-and-xpresswest-complete-lease-agreement). The median is wide, but I don't think it's wide enough to accommodate two new lanes
and a high-speed rail line. The highway would need to be widened outside the current highway, though the ROW shouldn't be a problem once out of the immediate Barstow-Yermo area.
I have taken the route through the Mojave desert (Nipton, Ivanpah, Morning Star Mine, Kelso-Cima, Kelbaker Road to I-40) and while it may not be much faster, it is generally much less frustrating and annoying.
Quote from: fungus on November 09, 2021, 04:18:21 PM
I have taken the route through the Mojave desert (Nipton, Ivanpah, Morning Star Mine, Kelso-Cima, Kelbaker Road to I-40) and while it may not be much faster, it is generally much less frustrating and annoying.
Those are not something that would be a ton of fun at night given how many potholes are on the paved roads in the Mojave Preserve. The state of repair for much of the rural roads in San Bernardino County is very low. One would be better off just heading out to US 95 if they wanted a more comfortable trip getting to I-40.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 09, 2021, 04:36:45 PM
Quote from: fungus on November 09, 2021, 04:18:21 PM
I have taken the route through the Mojave desert (Nipton, Ivanpah, Morning Star Mine, Kelso-Cima, Kelbaker Road to I-40) and while it may not be much faster, it is generally much less frustrating and annoying.
Those are not something that would be a ton of fun at night given how many potholes are on the paved roads in the Mojave Preserve. The state of repair for much of the rural roads in San Bernardino County is very low. One would be better off just heading out to US 95 if they wanted a more comfortable trip getting to I-40.
I agree it would not be wise to drive through the Mojave Preserve after dark. However, Nipton, Ivanpah, Morning Star Mine, Kelso-Cima, Kelbaker Road doesn't avoid the southbound problem of avoiding the miles of I-15 before the Ag Station so it doesn't solve the worst of the I-15 traffic southbound. It is a relaxing drive though; it's the way Coachella Valley residents use to get to LV (via Amboy and 29 Palms).
Supposedly, there was repaving recently. I have not driven through the preserve in the last few years so don't know how bad it is. This is a great route solo but I generally don't like subjecting guests to aggressive two lane road driving.
https://www.desertsun.com/story/news/traffic/2016/12/25/mojave-desert-las-vegas/95839918/
Quote from: fungus on November 09, 2021, 04:18:21 PM
I have taken the route through the Mojave desert (Nipton, Ivanpah, Morning Star Mine, Kelso-Cima, Kelbaker Road to I-40) and while it may not be much faster, it is generally much less frustrating and annoying.
Would you be willing to map this out for a non-local to see which roads?
Quote from: Alps on November 10, 2021, 12:24:53 AM
Quote from: fungus on November 09, 2021, 04:18:21 PM
I have taken the route through the Mojave desert (Nipton, Ivanpah, Morning Star Mine, Kelso-Cima, Kelbaker Road to I-40) and while it may not be much faster, it is generally much less frustrating and annoying.
Would you be willing to map this out for a non-local to see which roads?
This appears to be the route (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/35.4734201,-115.4488472/34.72106,-115.6784645/@35.0969087,-115.8085209,10z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!4m1!3e0)–and assuming it's a Vegas to SoCal trip, it would include a backtrack on I-40 to Barstow and I-15.
It seems like this might not be as beneficial now as it probably was before the I-15 CA agriculture inspection station moved north of the Nipton Road exit. But I admittedly haven't ever been in any of that heavy southbound weekend/holiday traffic snarl to know whether this detour might be worth it between the ag station and Barstow.
Quote from: roadfro on November 10, 2021, 08:43:02 AM
Quote from: Alps on November 10, 2021, 12:24:53 AM
Quote from: fungus on November 09, 2021, 04:18:21 PM
I have taken the route through the Mojave desert (Nipton, Ivanpah, Morning Star Mine, Kelso-Cima, Kelbaker Road to I-40) and while it may not be much faster, it is generally much less frustrating and annoying.
Would you be willing to map this out for a non-local to see which roads?
This appears to be the route (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/35.4734201,-115.4488472/34.72106,-115.6784645/@35.0969087,-115.8085209,10z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!4m1!3e0)–and assuming it's a Vegas to SoCal trip, it would include a backtrack on I-40 to Barstow and I-15.
It seems like this might not be as beneficial now as it probably was before the I-15 CA agriculture inspection station moved north of the Nipton Road exit. But I admittedly haven't ever been in any of that heavy southbound weekend/holiday traffic snarl to know whether this detour might be worth it between the ag station and Barstow.
They try to do the inspection points at a place just after all routes have converged and people who are just going a short distance into the state and have no intention of staying there can have turned back, but also before the road gets into any agricultural area.
Quote from: roadfro on November 10, 2021, 08:43:02 AM
Quote from: Alps on November 10, 2021, 12:24:53 AM
Quote from: fungus on November 09, 2021, 04:18:21 PM
I have taken the route through the Mojave desert (Nipton, Ivanpah, Morning Star Mine, Kelso-Cima, Kelbaker Road to I-40) and while it may not be much faster, it is generally much less frustrating and annoying.
Would you be willing to map this out for a non-local to see which roads?
This appears to be the route (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/35.4734201,-115.4488472/34.72106,-115.6784645/@35.0969087,-115.8085209,10z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!4m1!3e0)–and assuming it's a Vegas to SoCal trip, it would include a backtrack on I-40 to Barstow and I-15.
It seems like this might not be as beneficial now as it probably was before the I-15 CA agriculture inspection station moved north of the Nipton Road exit. But I admittedly haven't ever been in any of that heavy southbound weekend/holiday traffic snarl to know whether this detour might be worth it between the ag station and Barstow.
I thought that was supposed to be faster from Bakersfield. It's faster from Middle of Nowhere maybe
Quote from: fungus on November 09, 2021, 10:00:04 PM
Supposedly, there was repaving recently. I have not driven through the preserve in the last few years so don't know how bad it is. This is a great route solo but I generally don't like subjecting guests to aggressive two lane road driving.
https://www.desertsun.com/story/news/traffic/2016/12/25/mojave-desert-las-vegas/95839918/
What aggressive driving? There's not enough traffic to worry about aggressive two lane road driving; it's more desolate than the old US 66. I've never seen a truck on these roads. I'm not sure if there are still any operational mines in this part of the desert though there is a large commercial salt pan operation south of Amboy. I'd be more worried about lack of cell service if your car breaks down or sand drifting onto the road than the occasional other driver.
Quote from: skluth on November 11, 2021, 03:46:34 PM
Quote from: fungus on November 09, 2021, 10:00:04 PM
Supposedly, there was repaving recently. I have not driven through the preserve in the last few years so don't know how bad it is. This is a great route solo but I generally don't like subjecting guests to aggressive two lane road driving.
https://www.desertsun.com/story/news/traffic/2016/12/25/mojave-desert-las-vegas/95839918/
What aggressive driving? There's not enough traffic to worry about aggressive two lane road driving; it's more desolate than the old US 66. I've never seen a truck on these roads. I'm not sure if there are still any operational mines in this part of the desert though there is a large commercial salt pan operation south of Amboy. I'd be more worried about lack of cell service if your car breaks down or sand drifting onto the road than the occasional other driver.
I don't recall really any of those roads having posted speed limits which would by default make them 55 MPH. Kelbaker Road could handle those speeds but you had to watch for big potholes. The surfacing was actually kind of neat given the aggregate had a distinct red tint. If everything was repaved I would imagine 65-70 MPH during the daytime wouldn't be unreasonable akin to Old US 66 (signed at 55) and CA 127.
Quote from: skluth on November 11, 2021, 03:46:34 PM
What aggressive driving? There's not enough traffic to worry about aggressive two lane road driving; it's more desolate than the old US 66. I've never seen a truck on these roads. I'm not sure if there are still any operational mines in this part of the desert though there is a large commercial salt pan operation south of Amboy. I'd be more worried about lack of cell service if your car breaks down or sand drifting onto the road than the occasional other driver.
It's either my aggressive driving, or some hot shot in a sports SUV on a Sunday who thinks this is the way to beat traffic.
Gotta love Mayor Goodman, never misses a chance to call out California for their lack of investment. I wonder if the governor of Nevada has taken a position on this.
https://twitter.com/mayoroflasvegas/status/1461462286699089927?s=21
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 19, 2021, 05:38:43 PM
Gotta love Mayor Goodman, never misses a chance to call out California for their lack of investment. I wonder if the governor of Nevada has taken a position on this.
https://twitter.com/mayoroflasvegas/status/1461462286699089927?s=21
She forgot the California Transportation Commission. If she's for a party to blame they ought to be on there over Caltrans.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 19, 2021, 05:38:43 PM
Gotta love Mayor Goodman, never misses a chance to call out California for their lack of investment. I wonder if the governor of Nevada has taken a position on this.
https://twitter.com/mayoroflasvegas/status/1461462286699089927?s=21
Only in that part of the country would it be worded "...If you do NOT enjoy your long ride back down
the I-15..."
Isn't it usually either "long ride back down The 15" or "long ride back down I-15" ? Back down The Interstate 15 sounds a bit along the lines of The Ohio State University
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 19, 2021, 08:47:19 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 19, 2021, 05:38:43 PM
Gotta love Mayor Goodman, never misses a chance to call out California for their lack of investment. I wonder if the governor of Nevada has taken a position on this.
https://twitter.com/mayoroflasvegas/status/1461462286699089927?s=21
Only in that part of the country would it be worded "...If you do NOT enjoy your long ride back down the I-15..."
Isn't it usually either "long ride back down The 15" or "long ride back down I-15" ? Back down The Interstate 15 sounds a bit along the lines of The Ohio State University
The SoCal crowd mostly would call it "the 15". The Vegas crowd varies between "the 15" and "I-15". Clearly Mayor Goodman should've gone with "the 15" for maximum effect, and mixed the two conventions here.
Good thing she wasn't targeting those from Austin, TX, where it would be "IH-15." :D :D :D
Quote from: roadfro on November 02, 2021, 10:33:05 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 02, 2021, 06:40:46 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 02, 2021, 06:32:48 PM
Unlikely. Nevada isn't the problem pertaining to expansion of I-15, it's just California. The real issue is Barstow-Nevada State Line.
Exactly. And SW direction is the problem, in California, generally on Sundays or the end of long Holiday weekends. <...>
The problem is all because I-15 is 3 Lanes in Nevada, but the third lane drops at Primm right before the state line. I wonder if it would help if CalTrans widened I-15 southbound just to the agriculture checkpoint–that's a natural choke point anyway, and if they actually stopped passenger cars then it would act somewhat as a meter feeding back in to two lanes.
Ask and ye shall receive, I guess... In a joint press conference this morning, California Governor Newsom & Nevada Governor Sisolak announced that Caltrans is working on an "immediate relief" project to address the southbound congestion at the state line.
Sisolak, Newsom promise "˜immediate relief' for I-15 traffic at Nevada-California border (https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/traffic/sisolak-newsom-promise-immediate-relief-for-i-15-traffic-at-nevada-california-border-2491010/),
Las Vegas Review-Journal, 12/5/2021
Quote from: Las Vegas Review-Journal<...>
Newsom said they will take the shoulder about five miles south of the border and make it a third lane during peak hours. The project will cost about $12 million, but Newsom says existing money will be used to complete the project. He says it will be done by Summer 2022, but a more permanent solution is still needed.
<...>
If you watch the video included in the article (which starts during Q&A after the actual announcement), the impetus for this was apparently Governor Sisolak making a phone call to Governor Newsom to look into it, and in a subsequent call Sisolak also stating that the first response "wasn't good enough".
A quick measure on Google Maps indicates it's about 5.4 miles from the NV/CA state line to the point where the I-15 SB lanes start to widen out in approach to the agriculture checkpoint–so it looks like I was on to something! Peak period shoulder running isn't as good as a permanent third lane, but it should be a start.
Damn, California finally caved. I didn't expect something like this for years.
Oh wow. I was wondering a while ago how many freeways in California have the right shoulder lane usable for peak traffic (I'll make a new topic.) Now there will be a new addition to this. Truly an example of kicking the proverbial can down the road.
Quote from: roadfro on December 05, 2021, 03:19:27 PM
Quote from: roadfro on November 02, 2021, 10:33:05 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 02, 2021, 06:40:46 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 02, 2021, 06:32:48 PM
Unlikely. Nevada isn't the problem pertaining to expansion of I-15, it's just California. The real issue is Barstow-Nevada State Line.
Exactly. And SW direction is the problem, in California, generally on Sundays or the end of long Holiday weekends. <...>
The problem is all because I-15 is 3 Lanes in Nevada, but the third lane drops at Primm right before the state line. I wonder if it would help if CalTrans widened I-15 southbound just to the agriculture checkpoint–that's a natural choke point anyway, and if they actually stopped passenger cars then it would act somewhat as a meter feeding back in to two lanes.
Ask and ye shall receive, I guess... In a joint press conference this morning, California Governor Newsom & Nevada Governor Sisolak announced that Caltrans is working on an "immediate relief" project to address the southbound congestion at the state line.
Sisolak, Newsom promise "˜immediate relief' for I-15 traffic at Nevada-California border (https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/traffic/sisolak-newsom-promise-immediate-relief-for-i-15-traffic-at-nevada-california-border-2491010/), Las Vegas Review-Journal, 12/5/2021
Quote from: Las Vegas Review-Journal<...>
Newsom said they will take the shoulder about five miles south of the border and make it a third lane during peak hours. The project will cost about $12 million, but Newsom says existing money will be used to complete the project. He says it will be done by Summer 2022, but a more permanent solution is still needed.
<...>
If you watch the video included in the article (which starts during Q&A after the actual announcement), the impetus for this was apparently Governor Sisolak making a phone call to Governor Newsom to look into it, and in a subsequent call Sisolak also stating that the first response "wasn't good enough".
A quick measure on Google Maps indicates it's about 5.4 miles from the NV/CA state line to the point where the I-15 SB lanes start to widen out in approach to the agriculture checkpoint–so it looks like I was on to something! Peak period shoulder running isn't as good as a permanent third lane, but it should be a start.
What? They are using Mich Ravera's solution!?
I mean more lanes is always good but really what good will this do with the ridiculous agricultural checkpoint choking up Cali bound traffic?
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 06, 2021, 11:15:48 PM
I mean more lanes is always good but really what good will this do with the ridiculous agricultural checkpoint choking up Cali bound traffic?
I mean, at bare minimum, it will move 5 miles of the backup into California where it belongs...
I'm curious how bad the backups were at the old agriculture checkpoint. That was much further down the road in California, so it was extremely rare for the backups to reach the state line. Now only 5-6 miles into CA, the backups regularly spill into Nevada...and NDOT has traffic cameras and speed sensors out there, so it's much easier to the Vegas media market to pick up when there are backups and how long they'll be. I don't think Caltrans has nearly as much ITS infrastructure out on that part of I-15... Has this been a longstanding problem before the checkpoint was moved, and the technology wasn't there for people to easily pick up on the problem?
What are they considering "peak" hours? The end of a holiday weekend? All Sundays?
Quote from: Mark68 on December 13, 2021, 12:31:46 PM
What are they considering "peak" hours? The end of a holiday weekend? All Sundays?
It'll probably be controlled dynamically with electronic signs, so basically whenever traffic is heavy.
Quote from: roadfro on December 07, 2021, 11:31:47 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 06, 2021, 11:15:48 PM
I mean more lanes is always good but really what good will this do with the ridiculous agricultural checkpoint choking up Cali bound traffic?
I mean, at bare minimum, it will move 5 miles of the backup into California where it belongs...
I'm curious how bad the backups were at the old agriculture checkpoint. That was much further down the road in California, so it was extremely rare for the backups to reach the state line. Now only 5-6 miles into CA, the backups regularly spill into Nevada...and NDOT has traffic cameras and speed sensors out there, so it's much easier to the Vegas media market to pick up when there are backups and how long they'll be. I don't think Caltrans has nearly as much ITS infrastructure out on that part of I-15... Has this been a longstanding problem before the checkpoint was moved, and the technology wasn't there for people to easily pick up on the problem?
When was the Ag Inspection Station moved? The last time I was on this stretch of Interstate was early 2002, when I believe the AIS was still at its original location (the first time was as an 11 year-old passenger with my parents in August 1967, heading home from my uncle's house in Ventura, CA back to Fort Wayne, IN... but that's another story!). On that 2002 trip, the Ag Station appeared to be abandoned (it was a Saturday through), and I barely had to slow down to pass through it.
Quote from: SSR_317 on January 08, 2022, 05:56:10 PM
Quote from: roadfro on December 07, 2021, 11:31:47 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 06, 2021, 11:15:48 PM
I mean more lanes is always good but really what good will this do with the ridiculous agricultural checkpoint choking up Cali bound traffic?
I mean, at bare minimum, it will move 5 miles of the backup into California where it belongs...
I'm curious how bad the backups were at the old agriculture checkpoint. That was much further down the road in California, so it was extremely rare for the backups to reach the state line. Now only 5-6 miles into CA, the backups regularly spill into Nevada...and NDOT has traffic cameras and speed sensors out there, so it's much easier to the Vegas media market to pick up when there are backups and how long they'll be. I don't think Caltrans has nearly as much ITS infrastructure out on that part of I-15... Has this been a longstanding problem before the checkpoint was moved, and the technology wasn't there for people to easily pick up on the problem?
When was the Ag Inspection Station moved? The last time I was on this stretch of Interstate was early 2002, when I believe the AIS was still at its original location (the first time was as an 11 year-old passenger with my parents in August 1967, heading home from my uncle's house in Ventura, CA back to Fort Wayne, IN... but that's another story!). On that 2002 trip, the Ag Station appeared to be abandoned (it was a Saturday through), and I barely had to slow down to pass through it.
The new agricultural inspection station opened in September 2018: See https://www.cahighways.org/ROUTE015.html (https://www.cahighways.org/ROUTE015.html)
It's interesting how there aren't too many signs warning drivers about driving up Halloran Summit. When someone drives up the summit for the first time, they think it's just a gradual incline due to the vast stretch of desert and road that lies before them that also doesn't look too steep. But driving a 4-cylinder car is the toughest thing to do on that stretch of I-15.
Quote from: cahwyguy on January 08, 2022, 06:57:53 PM
The new agricultural inspection station opened in September 2018: See https://www.cahighways.org/ROUTE015.html (https://www.cahighways.org/ROUTE015.html)
Thanks!
Quote from: RZF on January 09, 2022, 12:56:00 AM
It's interesting how there aren't too many signs warning drivers about driving up Halloran Summit. When someone drives up the summit for the first time, they think it's just a gradual incline due to the vast stretch of desert and road that lies before them that also doesn't look too steep. But driving a 4-cylinder car is the toughest thing to do on that stretch of I-15.
Many years ago, there were signs leaving Baker warning drivers to turn off their air conditioners -- and it was not uncommon to see many cars stopped on the side of the road along that uphill grade, presumably just overheated. But that doesn't seem to be as big of a problem these days, as cars have improved. Personally, I don't find any of I-15 particularly tough to handle even in a 4-cylinder car.
Quote from: GaryA on January 10, 2022, 12:02:13 PM
Quote from: RZF on January 09, 2022, 12:56:00 AM
It's interesting how there aren't too many signs warning drivers about driving up Halloran Summit. When someone drives up the summit for the first time, they think it's just a gradual incline due to the vast stretch of desert and road that lies before them that also doesn't look too steep. But driving a 4-cylinder car is the toughest thing to do on that stretch of I-15.
Many years ago, there were signs leaving Baker warning drivers to turn off their air conditioners -- and it was not uncommon to see many cars stopped on the side of the road along that uphill grade, presumably just overheated. But that doesn't seem to be as big of a problem these days, as cars have improved. Personally, I don't find any of I-15 particularly tough to handle even in a 4-cylinder car.
Considering that modern four cylinders are as powerful as most V8s 35-50 years ago that shouldn't be a surprise. I want to say the climb to Halloran Summit is 6% over roughly ten miles. The incline grade really isn't what gets people it's the long push that does. Much of this of course is like you said, no big deal for modern cars with modern cooling systems.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 10, 2022, 12:11:29 PM
Quote from: GaryA on January 10, 2022, 12:02:13 PM
Quote from: RZF on January 09, 2022, 12:56:00 AM
It's interesting how there aren't too many signs warning drivers about driving up Halloran Summit. When someone drives up the summit for the first time, they think it's just a gradual incline due to the vast stretch of desert and road that lies before them that also doesn't look too steep. But driving a 4-cylinder car is the toughest thing to do on that stretch of I-15.
Many years ago, there were signs leaving Baker warning drivers to turn off their air conditioners -- and it was not uncommon to see many cars stopped on the side of the road along that uphill grade, presumably just overheated. But that doesn't seem to be as big of a problem these days, as cars have improved. Personally, I don't find any of I-15 particularly tough to handle even in a 4-cylinder car.
Considering that modern four cylinders are as powerful as most V8s 35-50 years ago that shouldn't be a surprise. I want to say the climb to Halloran Summit is 6% over roughly ten miles. The incline grade really isn't what gets people it's the long push that does. Much of this of course is like you said, no big deal for modern cars with modern cooling systems.
It's been many years since I traveled the route, but I-10 over Chiriaco Summit had a similar very long drawn-out grade, and one notable thing I remember was radiator water stations along the side of the highway every few miles. I'm not sure if they are still there, they seemed archaic even during the 90's when I was regularly traveling that route. Overheated cars were a common sight of my childhood along any prolonged mountain grade. It seemed like it was mostly air-cooled VW's, however.
Taking a look at the ATR data at Primm, Friday and Sunday are at about 120% of ADT, about 45,000 vehicles per day on those days, vs. 30,000 on the lowest day (Tuesday and Wednesday).
It's notable that about 4,600 people a day fly the route. To me, that gets back to the fundamental question: Is your infrastructure investment going to go further by improving non-vehicle transit options, whether it's more regular airport service or Brightline West, or by just ripping up some more of the Mojave and adding a lane or alternate route?
I'm sure the 0.0000004 percent of the desert that will be taken by a new lane won't affect much.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 11, 2022, 01:12:13 PM
I'm sure the 0.0000004 percent of the desert that will be taken by a new lane won't affect much.
The Sierra Club would try to still file a court injunction protesting 1 page out of 1,200 on an EIS about the habitat of the Arrowhead Trail Salamander.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 11, 2022, 01:17:41 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 11, 2022, 01:12:13 PM
I'm sure the 0.0000004 percent of the desert that will be taken by a new lane won't affect much.
The Sierra Club would try to still file a court injunction protesting 1 page out of 1,200 on an EIS about the habitat of the Arrowhead Trail Salamander.
That sounds about right. But I suspect this not happening has more to do with CalTrans lack of desire to address this more than anything.
Quote from: roadfro on December 05, 2021, 03:19:27 PM
Quote from: roadfro on November 02, 2021, 10:33:05 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 02, 2021, 06:40:46 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 02, 2021, 06:32:48 PM
Unlikely. Nevada isn't the problem pertaining to expansion of I-15, it's just California. The real issue is Barstow-Nevada State Line.
Exactly. And SW direction is the problem, in California, generally on Sundays or the end of long Holiday weekends. <...>
The problem is all because I-15 is 3 Lanes in Nevada, but the third lane drops at Primm right before the state line. I wonder if it would help if CalTrans widened I-15 southbound just to the agriculture checkpoint–that's a natural choke point anyway, and if they actually stopped passenger cars then it would act somewhat as a meter feeding back in to two lanes.
Ask and ye shall receive, I guess... In a joint press conference this morning, California Governor Newsom & Nevada Governor Sisolak announced that Caltrans is working on an "immediate relief" project to address the southbound congestion at the state line.
Sisolak, Newsom promise "˜immediate relief' for I-15 traffic at Nevada-California border (https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/traffic/sisolak-newsom-promise-immediate-relief-for-i-15-traffic-at-nevada-california-border-2491010/), Las Vegas Review-Journal, 12/5/2021
Quote from: Las Vegas Review-Journal<...>
Newsom said they will take the shoulder about five miles south of the border and make it a third lane during peak hours. The project will cost about $12 million, but Newsom says existing money will be used to complete the project. He says it will be done by Summer 2022, but a more permanent solution is still needed.
<...>
If you watch the video included in the article (which starts during Q&A after the actual announcement), the impetus for this was apparently Governor Sisolak making a phone call to Governor Newsom to look into it, and in a subsequent call Sisolak also stating that the first response "wasn't good enough".
A quick measure on Google Maps indicates it's about 5.4 miles from the NV/CA state line to the point where the I-15 SB lanes start to widen out in approach to the agriculture checkpoint–so it looks like I was on to something! Peak period shoulder running isn't as good as a permanent third lane, but it should be a start.
Is there any update on this? No visible work has even started aside from what looks to be a bridge preservation project at Yates Well road. It was supposed to be complete by summer of 2022 and here we are going into fall and nothing.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 09, 2022, 02:44:11 AM
Is there any update on this? No visible work has even started aside from what looks to be a bridge preservation project at Yates Well road. It was supposed to be complete by summer of 2022 and here we are going into fall and nothing.
Yes. Work started recently and is supposed to be completed this fall.
Roadwork may provide holiday relief for motorists headed to S. California (https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/news-columns/road-warrior/roadwork-may-provide-holiday-relief-for-motorists-headed-to-s-california-2634536/), Mick Ackers,
Las Vegas Review-Journal, 9/4/2022
Quote
<...>
Over 40 million people visit Las Vegas annually, with about 25 percent of those traveling between Southern California and Nevada. The volume of motorists can severely extend travel times on I-15 southbound on Sundays and Mondays, making the usually 4½ hour drive between Las Vegas and Los Angeles take as long as 10 hours on the busiest holidays.
Help to alleviate some of the pain is already underway.
A $12 million project is underway to restripe and repave the shoulder, allowing traffic to utilize it as a third lane during times of high traffic like Labor Day.
Nevada Gov. Steve Sisolak and California Gov. Gavin Newsome announced the project last December at a joint press conference near the border of the two states.
The improvement project on both the Nevada and California sides of I-15 southbound began Aug. 22 and is slated to wrap up later this fall, according to Nevada Department of Transportation spokeswoman Rosa Mendez.
<...>
To further help with traffic flow, NDOT is also installing a ramp meter and directional signage at the Primm Boulevard onramp to I-15 southbound. The project, which includes adding flashing beacon signs and intelligent transportation system equipment, is expected to be completed by the end of the year.
<...>
^^^ good to know I did see them working on a bridge that seems like it would have to be reconstructed in order for any mainline widening to occur even though they're saying that it's just going to be peak shoulder usage the bridge peers are too close to the freeway.
Quote from: roadfro on September 11, 2022, 05:56:03 PM
Roadwork may provide holiday relief for motorists headed to S. California (https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/news-columns/road-warrior/roadwork-may-provide-holiday-relief-for-motorists-headed-to-s-california-2634536/), Mick Ackers, Las Vegas Review-Journal, 9/4/2022
Several minor mistakes in that article:
- The photo is captioned "Southbound Interstate-15 traffic builds at mile mark 5 north Primm" -- beyond the strange wording, it seems to be inaccurate, as the photo clearly shows mile marker 22 (which is much more "impressive")
- It mentions the frequent backups "near Jean or even further south" -- should be "even further north"
- It misspells Gavin Newsom's name
Nevertheless, I appreciate that there's reporting on this. I'm surprised Nevada/Sisolak aren't operating with more urgency given that the midterms are coming, but most of the work seems to be on the California side of the border so maybe their hands are tied.
Yeah, they should have named the governor "Gavin Nuisance" !
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 12, 2022, 01:37:51 PM
Yeah, they should have named the governor "Gavin Nuisance" !
Let's keep the politics out of it. I don't complain about your politicians. Don't complain about mine.
Quote from: skluth on September 12, 2022, 05:14:25 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 12, 2022, 01:37:51 PM
Yeah, they should have named the governor "Gavin Nuisance" !
Let's keep the politics out of it. I don't complain about your politicians. Don't complain about mine.
Allow me then. The CA governor does suck and it isn't about politics it is his complete lack of care about this situation which could easily be resolved with the amount of money this state has. This isn't Mississippi where the DOT/state can't afford it. This is a situation of "I don't care."
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 12, 2022, 05:37:06 PM
Quote from: skluth on September 12, 2022, 05:14:25 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 12, 2022, 01:37:51 PM
Yeah, they should have named the governor "Gavin Nuisance" !
Let's keep the politics out of it. I don't complain about your politicians. Don't complain about mine.
Allow me then. The CA governor does suck and it isn't about politics it is his complete lack of care about this situation which could easily be resolved with the amount of money this state has. This isn't Mississippi where the DOT/state can't afford it. This is a situation of "I don't care."
If I were to offer a semi-political opinion, the issues on I-15 traffic north of Barstow truly are the fault of California in three regards:
- California failed to upgrade the corridor to six lanes as Nevada as done with their share I-15 from the State Line to Las Vegas.
- The location of the new Agricultural Station basically is placed in a location which made an existing problem worse.
- Holding onto the antiquated notion that passenger traffic needs to be stopped and/or slowed for agricultural inspection.
While I don't agree with the concept of bottlenecking all expansion highway projects amid a blanket theory that it will somehow promote other forms of transportation and carpooling that is State mentality at present moment, it isn't likely to change soon. That said, I really don't understand to need to stop/slow passenger traffic in the middle of an active freeway grade like California does with the agriculture inspection stations. Almost no other state stops/slows passenger traffic much less on an active road grade. Florida (where I lived previously) was a heavily agricultural centric state too and had freight traffic pull off to inspection stations at grade separated facilities.
To make matters worse, the Yermo Ag Station was located far enough inland that it wasn't typically causing monster backups and at least could be bypassed by those with knowledge of Yermo Road. I've heard the argument by many that the backups at the state line aren't something California shouldn't be paying for, I beg to differ. The above situation has been caused by California and they ought to be part of the solution in terms of being minimally cooperative with a neighboring state.
For a while Governor Newsom stuck me being as being standoffish in terms of finding a solution to the state line backup. Substantial pressure was applied by many interested parties and a solution was agreed upon, it just needs to be built. Problem is that even small expansions don't get built overnight and rarely please anyone during the process of construction.
^^^ I do agree the agricultural checkpoint stations are ridiculous and I've made how I feel about that know. I also will add a fair number of a mileage if I-15 between Barstow and NV state line technically has 3 lanes each way if you count climbing lanes.
CA doesn't even need to go full six lanes from the state line to Barstow. Three or four truck lanes, each 2-3 miles long, would go a long way towards alleviating backups.
The ag station at the border affects southbound traffic only, not northbound.
You may all offer semi-political opinions ONLY AS IT RELATES TO ROADS. Nothing outside of that realm. So please, no opinions how you feel about any politician, only how you feel about their stances and policies that affect roads. Thanks.
Quote from: Alps on September 12, 2022, 08:22:42 PM
You may all offer semi-political opinions ONLY AS IT RELATES TO ROADS. Nothing outside of that realm. So please, no opinions how you feel about any politician, only how you feel about their stances and policies that affect roads. Thanks.
I'm curious if my post is allowed then. Because my opinion of him is directly related to roads lol. I know to some that may be extreme but that's how much I care about road's especially this situation. At either rate at least he did SOMETHING about it. I know mayor Goodman of Las Vegas has been trying her best to stay on top of the situation. Maybe Newsom just did this to get her to shut up. Who knows.
Speaking of the agricultural station I left Vegas the other night and came through it at 3am. There wasn't even anyone there.
In the days of manned toll plazas, it was de rigeur to fan the roads out to large numbers of lanes. Why couldn't they do that for the ag station? It's not like land is really expensive in Ivanpah...
^^^
My point is that no California administration, Dem or Rep, has bothered to fix a growing problem along I-15 for decades. To blame the current governor for the problem is basically saying this problem magically appeared in the last 2-3 years. The only change over the last few years is the moving of the ag inspection station closer to the border which was designed and implemented under Jerry Brown; it may even go back to Schwarzenegger, but in either case the planning and construction predates Newsom. That Newsom sees no need to prioritize something that previous administrations also chose to ignore is more a general California policy of not widening rural interstates to six lanes (see I-5 through San Juaquin Valley) than on Newsom.
I agree that I-15 should be widened between the ag station and Nevada, but that's not the only transportation problem facing California and it's mostly a severe bottleneck at the end of long weekends about a dozen times a year. But it's stupid to blame Newsom for a problem that's been around for decades even if it has gotten worse in the last couple years (which coincided with a pandemic which greatly reduced vacation travel if you hadn't noticed).
I just want to find the place where Hunter S. Thompson's drugs began to take hold.
All I got on I-15.
Quote from: Road Hog on September 13, 2022, 04:09:41 PM
I just want to find the place where Hunter S. Thompson's drugs began to take hold.
All I got on I-15.
Probably accurate, it was built on the California side by the time book in question was written.
Quote from: skluth on September 13, 2022, 12:36:16 PM
^^^
My point is that no California administration, Dem or Rep, has bothered to fix a growing problem along I-15 for decades. To blame the current governor for the problem is basically saying this problem magically appeared in the last 2-3 years. The only change over the last few years is the moving of the ag inspection station closer to the border which was designed and implemented under Jerry Brown; it may even go back to Schwarzenegger, but in either case the planning and construction predates Newsom. That Newsom sees no need to prioritize something that previous administrations also chose to ignore is more a general California policy of not widening rural interstates to six lanes (see I-5 through San Juaquin Valley) than on Newsom.
I agree that I-15 should be widened between the ag station and Nevada, but that's not the only transportation problem facing California and it's mostly a severe bottleneck at the end of long weekends about a dozen times a year. But it's stupid to blame Newsom for a problem that's been around for decades even if it has gotten worse in the last couple years (which coincided with a pandemic which greatly reduced vacation travel if you hadn't noticed).
Agree, and I'll add that in the grand scheme of things, politics (for either party) probably doesn't help in terms of setting priorities. Truck/commercial traffic notwithstanding, why would this corridor rise to the top of the list when such a project would provide no real revenue benefits to the state? Nevada and Las Vegas certainly benefit from the tourist/visitor dollars spent there so it certainly makes sense that Goodman and Sisolak are hammering on CA to make it easy for people to get there, but for CA government there are more than enough other corridors that need attention where making improvements does have a net positive fiscal impact. As the old saying goes: follow the money . . .
Quote from: heynow415 on September 14, 2022, 11:41:38 AM
Quote from: skluth on September 13, 2022, 12:36:16 PM
^^^
My point is that no California administration, Dem or Rep, has bothered to fix a growing problem along I-15 for decades. To blame the current governor for the problem is basically saying this problem magically appeared in the last 2-3 years. The only change over the last few years is the moving of the ag inspection station closer to the border which was designed and implemented under Jerry Brown; it may even go back to Schwarzenegger, but in either case the planning and construction predates Newsom. That Newsom sees no need to prioritize something that previous administrations also chose to ignore is more a general California policy of not widening rural interstates to six lanes (see I-5 through San Juaquin Valley) than on Newsom.
I agree that I-15 should be widened between the ag station and Nevada, but that's not the only transportation problem facing California and it's mostly a severe bottleneck at the end of long weekends about a dozen times a year. But it's stupid to blame Newsom for a problem that's been around for decades even if it has gotten worse in the last couple years (which coincided with a pandemic which greatly reduced vacation travel if you hadn't noticed).
Agree, and I'll add that in the grand scheme of things, politics (for either party) probably doesn't help in terms of setting priorities. Truck/commercial traffic notwithstanding, why would this corridor rise to the top of the list when such a project would provide no real revenue benefits to the state? Nevada and Las Vegas certainly benefit from the tourist/visitor dollars spent there so it certainly makes sense that Goodman and Sisolak are hammering on CA to make it easy for people to get there, but for CA government there are more than enough other corridors that need attention where making improvements does have a net positive fiscal impact. As the old saying goes: follow the money . . .
I seem to recall that it was Nevada that paid directly for a big chunk of the turn-of-the-century improvements to I-15 in California, with other funding coming from earmarks spearheaded by Sen. Harry Reid, D-Not California.
Quote from: Sub-Urbanite on September 14, 2022, 04:59:13 PM
Quote from: heynow415 on September 14, 2022, 11:41:38 AM
Quote from: skluth on September 13, 2022, 12:36:16 PM
^^^
My point is that no California administration, Dem or Rep, has bothered to fix a growing problem along I-15 for decades. To blame the current governor for the problem is basically saying this problem magically appeared in the last 2-3 years. The only change over the last few years is the moving of the ag inspection station closer to the border which was designed and implemented under Jerry Brown; it may even go back to Schwarzenegger, but in either case the planning and construction predates Newsom. That Newsom sees no need to prioritize something that previous administrations also chose to ignore is more a general California policy of not widening rural interstates to six lanes (see I-5 through San Juaquin Valley) than on Newsom.
I agree that I-15 should be widened between the ag station and Nevada, but that's not the only transportation problem facing California and it's mostly a severe bottleneck at the end of long weekends about a dozen times a year. But it's stupid to blame Newsom for a problem that's been around for decades even if it has gotten worse in the last couple years (which coincided with a pandemic which greatly reduced vacation travel if you hadn't noticed).
Agree, and I'll add that in the grand scheme of things, politics (for either party) probably doesn't help in terms of setting priorities. Truck/commercial traffic notwithstanding, why would this corridor rise to the top of the list when such a project would provide no real revenue benefits to the state? Nevada and Las Vegas certainly benefit from the tourist/visitor dollars spent there so it certainly makes sense that Goodman and Sisolak are hammering on CA to make it easy for people to get there, but for CA government there are more than enough other corridors that need attention where making improvements does have a net positive fiscal impact. As the old saying goes: follow the money . . .
I seem to recall that it was Nevada that paid directly for a big chunk of the turn-of-the-century improvements to I-15 in California, with other funding coming from earmarks spearheaded by Sen. Harry Reid, D-Not California.
If I recall correctly, there was a contribution toward California I-15 improvements not from Nevada/NDOT, but some other entity like the Las Vegas Convention & Visitors Authority.
Quote from: roadfro on September 15, 2022, 12:08:25 PM
Quote from: Sub-Urbanite on September 14, 2022, 04:59:13 PM
Quote from: heynow415 on September 14, 2022, 11:41:38 AM
Quote from: skluth on September 13, 2022, 12:36:16 PM
^^^
My point is that no California administration, Dem or Rep, has bothered to fix a growing problem along I-15 for decades. To blame the current governor for the problem is basically saying this problem magically appeared in the last 2-3 years. The only change over the last few years is the moving of the ag inspection station closer to the border which was designed and implemented under Jerry Brown; it may even go back to Schwarzenegger, but in either case the planning and construction predates Newsom. That Newsom sees no need to prioritize something that previous administrations also chose to ignore is more a general California policy of not widening rural interstates to six lanes (see I-5 through San Juaquin Valley) than on Newsom.
I agree that I-15 should be widened between the ag station and Nevada, but that's not the only transportation problem facing California and it's mostly a severe bottleneck at the end of long weekends about a dozen times a year. But it's stupid to blame Newsom for a problem that's been around for decades even if it has gotten worse in the last couple years (which coincided with a pandemic which greatly reduced vacation travel if you hadn't noticed).
Agree, and I'll add that in the grand scheme of things, politics (for either party) probably doesn't help in terms of setting priorities. Truck/commercial traffic notwithstanding, why would this corridor rise to the top of the list when such a project would provide no real revenue benefits to the state? Nevada and Las Vegas certainly benefit from the tourist/visitor dollars spent there so it certainly makes sense that Goodman and Sisolak are hammering on CA to make it easy for people to get there, but for CA government there are more than enough other corridors that need attention where making improvements does have a net positive fiscal impact. As the old saying goes: follow the money . . .
I seem to recall that it was Nevada that paid directly for a big chunk of the turn-of-the-century improvements to I-15 in California, with other funding coming from earmarks spearheaded by Sen. Harry Reid, D-Not California.
If I recall correctly, there was a contribution toward California I-15 improvements not from Nevada/NDOT, but some other entity like the Las Vegas Convention & Visitors Authority.
This seems like a case where building an extra lane (or 2) as a tolled express facility would accomplish the improvements, while ensuring that the people benefiting from it are the ones who are paying for it. I have suggested a similar option for I-5 in the central valley as an alternative to the HSR boondoggle.
I went though there the day after Labor Day (have to take an extra day off to avoid horrendous traffic), not much work to see yet on the stretch from the border to the inspection station, other than some paving on the left side and work at the Yates Well Road overpass:
https://youtu.be/8-xSF9qgraQ
^^^ does anyone know what the Yates Well bridge work is for? Is it related to the I-15 shoulder project?
Quote from: roadfro on September 15, 2022, 12:08:25 PM
Quote from: Sub-Urbanite on September 14, 2022, 04:59:13 PM
Quote from: heynow415 on September 14, 2022, 11:41:38 AM
Quote from: skluth on September 13, 2022, 12:36:16 PM
^^^
My point is that no California administration, Dem or Rep, has bothered to fix a growing problem along I-15 for decades. To blame the current governor for the problem is basically saying this problem magically appeared in the last 2-3 years. The only change over the last few years is the moving of the ag inspection station closer to the border which was designed and implemented under Jerry Brown; it may even go back to Schwarzenegger, but in either case the planning and construction predates Newsom. That Newsom sees no need to prioritize something that previous administrations also chose to ignore is more a general California policy of not widening rural interstates to six lanes (see I-5 through San Juaquin Valley) than on Newsom.
I agree that I-15 should be widened between the ag station and Nevada, but that's not the only transportation problem facing California and it's mostly a severe bottleneck at the end of long weekends about a dozen times a year. But it's stupid to blame Newsom for a problem that's been around for decades even if it has gotten worse in the last couple years (which coincided with a pandemic which greatly reduced vacation travel if you hadn't noticed).
Agree, and I'll add that in the grand scheme of things, politics (for either party) probably doesn't help in terms of setting priorities. Truck/commercial traffic notwithstanding, why would this corridor rise to the top of the list when such a project would provide no real revenue benefits to the state? Nevada and Las Vegas certainly benefit from the tourist/visitor dollars spent there so it certainly makes sense that Goodman and Sisolak are hammering on CA to make it easy for people to get there, but for CA government there are more than enough other corridors that need attention where making improvements does have a net positive fiscal impact. As the old saying goes: follow the money . . .
I seem to recall that it was Nevada that paid directly for a big chunk of the turn-of-the-century improvements to I-15 in California, with other funding coming from earmarks spearheaded by Sen. Harry Reid, D-Not California.
If I recall correctly, there was a contribution toward California I-15 improvements not from Nevada/NDOT, but some other entity like the Las Vegas Convention & Visitors Authority.
If it were important enough, LVCVA would buy land and build their own road!
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 18, 2022, 05:05:51 PM
^^^ does anyone know what the Yates Well bridge work is for? Is it related to the I-15 shoulder project?
My understanding (from when I was in Vegas over Labor Day), is that it is to repair damage from the floods and washouts in late August.
Quote from: cahwyguy on September 19, 2022, 12:53:12 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 18, 2022, 05:05:51 PM
^^^ does anyone know what the Yates Well bridge work is for? Is it related to the I-15 shoulder project?
My understanding (from when I was in Vegas over Labor Day), is that it is to repair damage from the floods and washouts in late August.
You might be thinking of the damage at Wheaton Wash at postmile 174 south of Nipton Road. Fortunately, Caltrans reopened all lanes on it over Labor Day weekend.
https://www.fox5vegas.com/2022/09/01/caltrans-all-lanes-i-15-sb-be-open-california-over-holiday-weekend/
Drove from Vegas to Barstow early Sunday morning (3am so no traffic) after Thanksgiving. It looks like the work is done; the bridge and beyond going southbound has 3 lanes, and the new rightmost lane is sort of this hybrid thing that merges in and out of the shoulder.
I did happen to check the traffic later that morning and saw it was pretty bad like always (maybe due to the agricultural checkpoint like others noted) but could have been better than past years.
Driving through Nevada from Vegas to get to that point, the overhead marquees all had an ominous warning, something like "Slow traffic 11 miles north of state line, carry extra food and gas".
Apparently there was an 18-mile backup (https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sfgate.com%2Fbayarea%2Farticle%2Fgridlock-traffic-on-calif-nevada-border-17613840.php) later in the day.
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on November 29, 2022, 12:14:54 PM
Apparently there was an 18-mile backup (https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sfgate.com%2Fbayarea%2Farticle%2Fgridlock-traffic-on-calif-nevada-border-17613840.php) later in the day.
I drove from Vegas to LA (Sherman Oaks) on Sunday evening. I left Vegas at 6:30. It was awful. Got into Sherman Oaks at 1:00 AM - there were numerous multi-mile backups between Primm and Barstow.
The road is really an abomination. There's no excuse for it not being 3+ lanes from Primm to Barstow at this point.
Quote from: FredAkbar on November 28, 2022, 11:49:40 PM
Driving through Nevada from Vegas to get to that point, the overhead marquees all had an ominous warning, something like "Slow traffic 11 miles north of state line, carry extra food and gas".
LOL ..... yes, it was overly omnious.
Nevada's OTHER overhead marquees had an interesting message of their own. "Keep your stuffing on the inside this Thanksgiving ..... buckle up!" Geez, isn't that picturesque?
Quote from: keithvh on November 30, 2022, 02:25:52 PM
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on November 29, 2022, 12:14:54 PM
Apparently there was an 18-mile backup (https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sfgate.com%2Fbayarea%2Farticle%2Fgridlock-traffic-on-calif-nevada-border-17613840.php) later in the day.
I drove from Vegas to LA (Sherman Oaks) on Sunday evening. I left Vegas at 6:30. It was awful. Got into Sherman Oaks at 1:00 AM - there were numerous multi-mile backups between Primm and Barstow.
The road is really an abomination. There's no excuse for it not being 3+ lanes from Primm to Barstow at this point.
No reason to ever do that when you can fly virtually on the hour every hour LAX-LAS or vice versa.
Quote from: DenverBrian on November 30, 2022, 08:51:58 PM
Quote from: keithvh on November 30, 2022, 02:25:52 PM
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on November 29, 2022, 12:14:54 PM
Apparently there was an 18-mile backup (https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sfgate.com%2Fbayarea%2Farticle%2Fgridlock-traffic-on-calif-nevada-border-17613840.php) later in the day.
I drove from Vegas to LA (Sherman Oaks) on Sunday evening. I left Vegas at 6:30. It was awful. Got into Sherman Oaks at 1:00 AM - there were numerous multi-mile backups between Primm and Barstow.
The road is really an abomination. There's no excuse for it not being 3+ lanes from Primm to Barstow at this point.
No reason to ever do that when you can fly virtually on the hour every hour LAX-LAS or vice versa.
Wouldn't it just be easier detouring from Vegas via CA 190 for designations like Sherman Oaks. There is all sorts of handy shortcuts through the desert beginning in Panamint Valley that will get to US 395 or CA 14. It might be longer on paper but for me I rather just drive by myself in the desert than a 16-18 mile backup on I-15.
Quote from: DenverBrian on November 30, 2022, 08:51:58 PM
Quote from: keithvh on November 30, 2022, 02:25:52 PM
I drove from Vegas to LA (Sherman Oaks) on Sunday evening. I left Vegas at 6:30. It was awful. Got into Sherman Oaks at 1:00 AM - there were numerous multi-mile backups between Primm and Barstow.
The road is really an abomination. There's no excuse for it not being 3+ lanes from Primm to Barstow at this point.
No reason to ever do that when you can fly virtually on the hour every hour LAX-LAS or vice versa.
Except then you have to fly X-( (come on, you're on a roadgeek forum!)
There's always the nuclear option, which I do, of leaving at 3am Sunday "morning". I live in San Francisco, so it's a 7.5 hour drive, only an hour longer than the Sherman Oaks person's Sunday evening drive despite being over twice as far by mileage.
I think a case could be made to expand I-15 to eight lanes between Victorville and LV. That said if the trip takes more than 5+ hours why not just roll through Death Valley and take 395 or the 14 back into town? That's what I do and honestly it's much more fun than taking the interstate.
Quote from: keithvh on November 30, 2022, 02:25:52 PM
I drove from Vegas to LA (Sherman Oaks) on Sunday evening. I left Vegas at 6:30. It was awful. Got into Sherman Oaks at 1:00 AM - there were numerous multi-mile backups between Primm and Barstow.
The road is really an abomination. There's no excuse for it not being 3+ lanes from Primm to Barstow at this point.
For non-holiday weekends, the backup is usually just from before Primm to past the inspection station and another one again coming down the Cajon Pass. My workaround is to drive to Searchlight and pick up Nipton Road back to 15 to avoid the inspection station traffic and then pick up 138 south of Victorville back to 15 to avoid the Cajon Pass traffic. It adds an hour to an ideal Vegas trip back to LA, but it moves the whole time.
Occasionally there's a Sunday backup coming down into Barstow from Yermo, and that can be avoided by cutting down to 40 at Newberry Springs or Daggett. But that usually doesn't save you any additional time; it just saves the hassle of working the clutch in stop-and-go traffic.
Quote from: FredAkbar on December 01, 2022, 12:55:50 AM
There's always the nuclear option, which I do, of leaving at 3am Sunday "morning".
What a waste of a perfectly good Saturday night in Vegas. :-(
Quote from: FredAkbar on December 01, 2022, 12:55:50 AM
Quote from: DenverBrian on November 30, 2022, 08:51:58 PM
Quote from: keithvh on November 30, 2022, 02:25:52 PM
I drove from Vegas to LA (Sherman Oaks) on Sunday evening. I left Vegas at 6:30. It was awful. Got into Sherman Oaks at 1:00 AM - there were numerous multi-mile backups between Primm and Barstow.
The road is really an abomination. There's no excuse for it not being 3+ lanes from Primm to Barstow at this point.
No reason to ever do that when you can fly virtually on the hour every hour LAX-LAS or vice versa.
Except then you have to fly X-( (come on, you're on a roadgeek forum!)
There's always the nuclear option, which I do, of leaving at 3am Sunday "morning". I live in San Francisco, so it's a 7.5 hour drive, only an hour longer than the Sherman Oaks person's Sunday evening drive despite being over twice as far by mileage.
Given you live in the Bay Area you can even more so easily avoid I-15 by heading west.
Seriously, why are some of you even bothering with I-15? I live in Fresno and I haven't taken I-15 into the city since I did so deliberately to start this thread. My usually route to Vegas from Mojave is:
- CA 14
- Garlock Road
- US 395
- Searles Station Cutoff and Trona Road
- CA 178
- Trona/Trona-Wildrose Road
- Panamint Valley Road
- CA 190
- CA 127
- Stateline Road
- NV 160
Even detouring up US 395 directly to CA 190 would be more workable than sitting in that weekend rush traffic on I-15.
^^^^ that's the way! You can also haul ass with little to no worry about CHP. I'm average around 150MPH and I've gotten well over 200MPH on many stretches. Just go for it. It's fun.
The desert is kind of a spooky place, I can see the Mojave outside limited access being off putting. That said, almost everything I listed is signed with 65 MPH speed limits. Stuff like Stateline Road has even been recently repaved. The biggest hazard is probably open range desert critters which is something that wouldn't be seen on I-15.
How much of I-15 between Barstow and the NV line is still only 4-lanes?
Quote from: webny99 on December 01, 2022, 09:58:30 AM
How much of I-15 between Barstow and the NV line is still only 4-lanes?
Almost all of it aside from the climbing/descending lanes I described in my blog.
When can we expect the Brightline guys to start construction works on their proposal?
Mike
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 01, 2022, 10:13:01 AM
Quote from: webny99 on December 01, 2022, 09:58:30 AM
How much of I-15 between Barstow and the NV line is still only 4-lanes?
Almost all of it aside from the climbing/descending lanes I described in my blog.
The climbing/descending lanes run for miles, making much of the road effectively six lanes.
There's ongoing road work in Victorville, apparently to add lanes from Victorville south.
Quote from: DenverBrian on December 01, 2022, 02:00:58 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 01, 2022, 10:13:01 AM
Quote from: webny99 on December 01, 2022, 09:58:30 AM
How much of I-15 between Barstow and the NV line is still only 4-lanes?
Almost all of it aside from the climbing/descending lanes I described in my blog.
The climbing/descending lanes run for miles, making much of the road effectively six lanes.
There's ongoing road work in Victorville, apparently to add lanes from Victorville south.
The bulk of I-15 between Barstow and Primm is certainly not even close to mostly six lanes. You have to consider too, how many passenger vehicles use those climbing/descending lanes? The four lane segments ought to be six and the climbing lane portions should be eight is to effectively manage the flow of traffic (which seems to be Nevada's goal but not California).
Quote from: DenverBrian on November 30, 2022, 08:51:58 PM
Quote from: keithvh on November 30, 2022, 02:25:52 PM
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on November 29, 2022, 12:14:54 PM
Apparently there was an 18-mile backup (https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sfgate.com%2Fbayarea%2Farticle%2Fgridlock-traffic-on-calif-nevada-border-17613840.php) later in the day.
I drove from Vegas to LA (Sherman Oaks) on Sunday evening. I left Vegas at 6:30. It was awful. Got into Sherman Oaks at 1:00 AM - there were numerous multi-mile backups between Primm and Barstow.
The road is really an abomination. There's no excuse for it not being 3+ lanes from Primm to Barstow at this point.
No reason to ever do that when you can fly virtually on the hour every hour LAX-LAS or vice versa.
Any time gained by flying will be lost going in/out of LAX. Burbank, Ontario, John Wayne? No problem. Just don't use LAX if possible. Especially on a holiday weekend.
Quote from: skluth on December 01, 2022, 03:17:00 PM
Quote from: DenverBrian on November 30, 2022, 08:51:58 PM
Quote from: keithvh on November 30, 2022, 02:25:52 PM
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on November 29, 2022, 12:14:54 PM
Apparently there was an 18-mile backup (https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sfgate.com%2Fbayarea%2Farticle%2Fgridlock-traffic-on-calif-nevada-border-17613840.php) later in the day.
I drove from Vegas to LA (Sherman Oaks) on Sunday evening. I left Vegas at 6:30. It was awful. Got into Sherman Oaks at 1:00 AM - there were numerous multi-mile backups between Primm and Barstow.
The road is really an abomination. There's no excuse for it not being 3+ lanes from Primm to Barstow at this point.
No reason to ever do that when you can fly virtually on the hour every hour LAX-LAS or vice versa.
Any time gained by flying will be lost going in/out of LAX. Burbank, Ontario, John Wayne? No problem. Just don't use LAX if possible. Especially on a holiday weekend.
From Palm Springs you also have the luxury of US 95 being a viable detour coupled with stuff like Amboy Road or CA 62-CA 177.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 01, 2022, 09:00:05 AM
I'm average around 150MPH and I've gotten well over 200MPH on many stretches. Just go for it. It's fun.
Okay, gonna go try that in my 2008 Honda Fit, I'll let you know how it goes.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 01, 2022, 09:00:05 AM
^^^^ that's the way! You can also haul ass with little to no worry about CHP. I'm average around 150MPH and I've gotten well over 200MPH on many stretches. Just go for it. It's fun.
Once my Bugatti gets out of the shop, I'll have to try that.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 01, 2022, 08:03:51 AM
Seriously, why are some of you even bothering with I-15? I live in Fresno and I haven't taken I-15 into the city since I did so deliberately to start this thread. My usually route to Vegas from Mojave is:
[snipped]
The routing you quote would be a non-starter for me, since I generally have a policy of eschewing non-numbered routes for long-distance travel. I generally don't trust county governments to maintain roads to consistently acceptable standards, nor do I trust Google Maps to update GSV often enough to provide an accurate picture of conditions along them.
Quote from: skluth on December 01, 2022, 03:17:00 PM
Quote from: DenverBrian on November 30, 2022, 08:51:58 PM
Quote from: keithvh on November 30, 2022, 02:25:52 PM
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on November 29, 2022, 12:14:54 PM
Apparently there was an 18-mile backup (https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sfgate.com%2Fbayarea%2Farticle%2Fgridlock-traffic-on-calif-nevada-border-17613840.php) later in the day.
I drove from Vegas to LA (Sherman Oaks) on Sunday evening. I left Vegas at 6:30. It was awful. Got into Sherman Oaks at 1:00 AM - there were numerous multi-mile backups between Primm and Barstow.
The road is really an abomination. There's no excuse for it not being 3+ lanes from Primm to Barstow at this point.
No reason to ever do that when you can fly virtually on the hour every hour LAX-LAS or vice versa.
Any time gained by flying will be lost going in/out of LAX. Burbank, Ontario, John Wayne? No problem. Just don't use LAX if possible. Especially on a holiday weekend.
The thing though is those smaller airports generally only have straight flights to Vegas on ultra-low-cost-carriers like Frontier or Allegiant or Spirit. I don't particularly enjoy the nickel-and-diming they do and wouldn't trust them to not cancel my flight. Southwest appears to have a couple flights to some of the smaller LA-area airports, but other than that, if you want to avoid LAX and don't want to chance an ULCC, you're stuck changing planes in someplace like SFO or PHX or SLC which defeats the whole purpose.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 02, 2022, 01:01:02 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 01, 2022, 08:03:51 AM
Seriously, why are some of you even bothering with I-15? I live in Fresno and I haven't taken I-15 into the city since I did so deliberately to start this thread. My usually route to Vegas from Mojave is:
[snipped]
The routing you quote would be a non-starter for me, since I generally have a policy of eschewing non-numbered routes for long-distance travel. I generally don't trust county governments to maintain roads to consistently acceptable standards, nor do I trust Google Maps to update GSV often enough to provide an accurate picture of conditions along them.
That's why I ever mentioned the full eastern CA 190 option. Hyperbole aside that's a pretty well known highway east of the Sierras to travel fast on. Adding an hour to your trip on paper IMO is better than sitting stopped in traffic for an hour elsewhere on a more popular route.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 02, 2022, 09:44:42 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 02, 2022, 01:01:02 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 01, 2022, 08:03:51 AM
Seriously, why are some of you even bothering with I-15? I live in Fresno and I haven't taken I-15 into the city since I did so deliberately to start this thread. My usually route to Vegas from Mojave is:
[snipped]
The routing you quote would be a non-starter for me, since I generally have a policy of eschewing non-numbered routes for long-distance travel. I generally don't trust county governments to maintain roads to consistently acceptable standards, nor do I trust Google Maps to update GSV often enough to provide an accurate picture of conditions along them.
That's why I ever mentioned the full eastern CA 190 option. Hyperbole aside that's a pretty well known highway east of the Sierras to travel fast on. Adding an hour to your trip on paper IMO is better than sitting stopped in traffic for an hour elsewhere on a more popular route.
Even if it takes longer it doesn't feel like it.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 02, 2022, 09:57:25 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 02, 2022, 09:44:42 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 02, 2022, 01:01:02 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 01, 2022, 08:03:51 AM
Seriously, why are some of you even bothering with I-15? I live in Fresno and I haven't taken I-15 into the city since I did so deliberately to start this thread. My usually route to Vegas from Mojave is:
[snipped]
The routing you quote would be a non-starter for me, since I generally have a policy of eschewing non-numbered routes for long-distance travel. I generally don't trust county governments to maintain roads to consistently acceptable standards, nor do I trust Google Maps to update GSV often enough to provide an accurate picture of conditions along them.
That's why I ever mentioned the full eastern CA 190 option. Hyperbole aside that's a pretty well known highway east of the Sierras to travel fast on. Adding an hour to your trip on paper IMO is better than sitting stopped in traffic for an hour elsewhere on a more popular route.
Even if it takes longer it doesn't feel like it.
Driving sitting/around in traffic like what you see on a weekend rush on I-15 is downright exhausting mentally. I get it that a lot/most just rely on a GPS to tell them where to go but you'd think a lot of them would eventually learn it isn't getting better and look for other options.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 02, 2022, 10:06:42 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 02, 2022, 09:57:25 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 02, 2022, 09:44:42 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 02, 2022, 01:01:02 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 01, 2022, 08:03:51 AM
Seriously, why are some of you even bothering with I-15? I live in Fresno and I haven't taken I-15 into the city since I did so deliberately to start this thread. My usually route to Vegas from Mojave is:
[snipped]
The routing you quote would be a non-starter for me, since I generally have a policy of eschewing non-numbered routes for long-distance travel. I generally don't trust county governments to maintain roads to consistently acceptable standards, nor do I trust Google Maps to update GSV often enough to provide an accurate picture of conditions along them.
That's why I ever mentioned the full eastern CA 190 option. Hyperbole aside that's a pretty well known highway east of the Sierras to travel fast on. Adding an hour to your trip on paper IMO is better than sitting stopped in traffic for an hour elsewhere on a more popular route.
Even if it takes longer it doesn't feel like it.
Driving sitting/around in traffic like what you see on a weekend rush on I-15 is downright exhausting mentally. I get it that a lot/most just rely on a GPS to tell them where to go but you'd think a lot of them would eventually learn it isn't getting better and look for other options.
That's precisely why Death Valley is such a great option for bypassing that bullshit.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 02, 2022, 09:44:42 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 02, 2022, 01:01:02 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 01, 2022, 08:03:51 AM
Seriously, why are some of you even bothering with I-15? I live in Fresno and I haven't taken I-15 into the city since I did so deliberately to start this thread. My usually route to Vegas from Mojave is:
[snipped]
The routing you quote would be a non-starter for me, since I generally have a policy of eschewing non-numbered routes for long-distance travel. I generally don't trust county governments to maintain roads to consistently acceptable standards, nor do I trust Google Maps to update GSV often enough to provide an accurate picture of conditions along them.
That's why I ever mentioned the full eastern CA 190 option. Hyperbole aside that's a pretty well known highway east of the Sierras to travel fast on. Adding an hour to your trip on paper IMO is better than sitting stopped in traffic for an hour elsewhere on a more popular route.
I'm curious what some of the specific concerns as to county routes are. I'm used to county routes being paved and maintained to high standards here in the Northeast, but I know that's not always the case elsewhere.
I also checked out some of the GSV on the non-state highways along Max's route, and correct me if I'm wrong but it looked to me like they were all paved and striped. Taking the US 395 to CA 190 option would leave State Line Rd as the only non-state highway portion.
Looks like some pretty remote territory, but nothing I wouldn't be comfortable with traveling.
Quote from: webny99 on December 02, 2022, 10:26:09 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 02, 2022, 09:44:42 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 02, 2022, 01:01:02 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 01, 2022, 08:03:51 AM
Seriously, why are some of you even bothering with I-15? I live in Fresno and I haven't taken I-15 into the city since I did so deliberately to start this thread. My usually route to Vegas from Mojave is:
[snipped]
The routing you quote would be a non-starter for me, since I generally have a policy of eschewing non-numbered routes for long-distance travel. I generally don't trust county governments to maintain roads to consistently acceptable standards, nor do I trust Google Maps to update GSV often enough to provide an accurate picture of conditions along them.
That's why I ever mentioned the full eastern CA 190 option. Hyperbole aside that's a pretty well known highway east of the Sierras to travel fast on. Adding an hour to your trip on paper IMO is better than sitting stopped in traffic for an hour elsewhere on a more popular route.
I'm curious what some of the specific concerns as to county routes are. I'm used to county routes being paved and maintained to high standards here in the Northeast, but I know that's not always the case elsewhere.
I also checked out some of the GSV on the non-state highways along Max's route, and correct me if I'm wrong but it looked to me like they were all paved and striped. Taking the US 395 to CA 190 option would leave State Line Rd as the only non-state highway portion.
Looks like some pretty remote territory, but nothing I wouldn't be comfortable with traveling.
The roads I cited are now pretty good, in the recent past some were not. Trona-Wildrose Road in particular was one of the worst paved county roads I've driven the first time I used it. Kern County generally maintains their inventory to an acceptable level, Inyo County is far more of a gamble. Either way, none of what I cited is an issue during daylight hours. The biggest concern I had was open range animal encounters like coyotes.
Interesting aside about Kern County, they maintain a list of major routes and sign them with postmiles like Caltrans does. Most of those types of roads are located in the Sierra Nevada Mountains.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 01, 2022, 03:22:05 PM
Quote from: skluth on December 01, 2022, 03:17:00 PM
Quote from: DenverBrian on November 30, 2022, 08:51:58 PM
Quote from: keithvh on November 30, 2022, 02:25:52 PM
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on November 29, 2022, 12:14:54 PM
Apparently there was an 18-mile backup (https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sfgate.com%2Fbayarea%2Farticle%2Fgridlock-traffic-on-calif-nevada-border-17613840.php) later in the day.
I drove from Vegas to LA (Sherman Oaks) on Sunday evening. I left Vegas at 6:30. It was awful. Got into Sherman Oaks at 1:00 AM - there were numerous multi-mile backups between Primm and Barstow.
The road is really an abomination. There's no excuse for it not being 3+ lanes from Primm to Barstow at this point.
No reason to ever do that when you can fly virtually on the hour every hour LAX-LAS or vice versa.
Any time gained by flying will be lost going in/out of LAX. Burbank, Ontario, John Wayne? No problem. Just don't use LAX if possible. Especially on a holiday weekend.
From Palm Springs you also have the luxury of US 95 being a viable detour coupled with stuff like Amboy Road or CA 62-CA 177.
I've never taken I-15 from Barstow to LV. It's far easier for me to go via Amboy and Kelso though Morning Star Mining Road isn't the greatest. Next time I'll probably try Amboy to Goffs to LV just for the variety. Amboy Road is great though I wouldn't want to break down on it given all the survivalist types east of Twentynine Palms and lack of cell service; don't relish the potential for a real-life desert version of
Deliverance.
Quote from: FredAkbar on December 02, 2022, 12:39:38 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 01, 2022, 09:00:05 AM
I'm average around 150MPH and I've gotten well over 200MPH on many stretches. Just go for it. It's fun.
Okay, gonna go try that in my 2008 Honda Fit, I'll let you know how it goes.
It works much better in a Muni!
Quote from: webny99 on December 02, 2022, 10:26:09 AM
I'm curious what some of the specific concerns as to county routes are. I'm used to county routes being paved and maintained to high standards here in the Northeast, but I know that's not always the case elsewhere.
Well, for one thing, counties don't always have "routes". No county in Oklahoma has numbered routes, for example. Without that structure in place, it is not really obvious whether any given county road is intended to be a major through route or merely a property-access road that dead-ends somewhere or loses its pavement halfway through. Names like "Trona-Wildrose" and "Morningstar Mining Rd" don't really do much to assuage this concern.
And the level of maintenance can vary greatly from county to county. I know all of my home county's roads are paved, but there are plenty of counties in my state where that is not true. County roads are also more likely than state roads to have issues like bridges being out for an extended period of time because there is simply not the funds to repair or replace them.
(Note this is all meant as a general explanation for my policy of avoiding county roads, and may not actually apply to the specific roads Max mentions.)
My preference is coming up via US 95 to I-11/I-515. You can pick it up in Needles on I-40 or Blythe on I-10.
This week I went to Las Vegas and drove I-15 between Barstow and the California inspection stations for the first time in a few decades. (It's far easier to go between Palm Springs and Las Vegas on the Mojave back roads but I didn't want to risk it given all the recent rain.) I didn't think it was overly busy, but then again I drove up Wednesday and back Friday. I was surprised at how much was already three lanes each way thanks to the truck lanes which made it painfully obvious how much it needs to be widened the entire way as the only times I-15 felt clogged was when one truck s-l-o-w-l-y passed another blocking both lanes. And I was driving either at or slightly above (maybe 5 mph) the speed limit. It's pretty sad when traffic moves best up steep inclines.
The flex shoulder on WB I-15 from the NV state line to the agricultural inspection station is now in use. It's operational from 8am to 10pm on Sunday and Monday. I haven't been through it during peak hours so I don't know how much it's helping.
When I went through the inspection station at 12am on Sunday night there wasn't even a single worker to wave you through. So if you want to transport illegal fruits and animals there's your time frame.
I mean seriously without evening adding a GP lane just getting rid of the checkpoint would do wonders. As soon as you pass that traffic picks back up to freeway speeds before it slows back down again during busy hours at the four lane sections.
More 3 lane sections need to be built.
Phase 1: The section between the southernmost segment of I-15 in California to Primm needs to be at least 3 lanes each way with full shoulders. Remove the agricultural checkpoint for automobiles but keep it on the side for commercial trucks with their own lanes from the NV state line.
Phase 2: Once phase 1 is completed widen the entire thing at once to ensure there is a minimum of 3 lanes each way from NV to Barstow.
Phase 3: ultimate phase. Widen the entire segment from Barstow to Primm to four lanes each way and ban semis from using the left two lanes. This allows for trucks to be able to use the right two lanes for passing un-obstructing vehicle traffic. This would be a longer term project but do this and I bet this plan works for generations.
As for the train I don't even know where it'd fit in. I'm skeptical it even happens but I'll be pleasantly surprised. We just keep hearing it'll break ground next year for years now.
After that's done work on the remaining segments all the way to Barstow at one time. Work day and night.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 28, 2023, 05:02:58 AM
The flex shoulder on WB I-15 from the NV state line to the agricultural inspection station is now in use. It's operational from 8am to 10pm on Sunday and Monday. I haven't been through it during peak hours so I don't know how much it's helping.
When I went through the inspection station at 12am on Sunday night there wasn't even a single worker to wave you through. So if you want to transport illegal fruits and animals there's your time frame.
I mean seriously without evening adding a GP lane just getting rid of the checkpoint would do wonders. As soon as you pass that traffic picks back up to freeway speeds before it slows back down again during busy hours at the four lane sections.
More 3 lane sections need to be built.
Phase 1: The section between the southernmost segment of I-15 in California to Primm needs to be at least 3 lanes each way with full shoulders. Remove the agricultural checkpoint for automobiles but keep it on the side for commercial trucks with their own lanes from the NV state line.
Phase 2: Once phase 1 is completed widen the entire thing at once to ensure there is a minimum of 3 lanes each way from NV to Barstow.
Phase 3: ultimate phase. Widen the entire segment from Barstow to Primm to four lanes each way and ban semis from using the left two lanes. This allows for trucks to be able to use the right two lanes for passing un-obstructing vehicle traffic. This would be a longer term project but do this and I bet this plan works for generations.
As for the train I don't even know where it'd fit in. I'm skeptical it even happens but I'll be pleasantly surprised. We just keep hearing it'll break ground next year for years now.
After that's done work on the remaining segments all the way to Barstow at one time. Work day and night.
I don't even see how the train will see a decent ROI. Currently the best alternative to driving from the LA area to Vegas is very cheap and somewhat convenient - a $30-$50 45-minute flight. Round trip, that's cheaper than what you'd pay in gas driving up there.
As I said, I'll be surprised if the train actually gets built.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 28, 2023, 05:02:58 AM
The flex shoulder on WB I-15 from the NV state line to the agricultural inspection station is now in use. It's operational from 8am to 10pm on Sunday and Monday. I haven't been through it during peak hours so I don't know how much it's helping.
When I went through the inspection station at 12am on Sunday night there wasn't even a single worker to wave you through. So if you want to transport illegal fruits and animals there's your time frame.
I mean seriously without evening adding a GP lane just getting rid of the checkpoint would do wonders. As soon as you pass that traffic picks back up to freeway speeds before it slows back down again during busy hours at the four lane sections.
More 3 lane sections need to be built.
Phase 1: The section between the southernmost segment of I-15 in California to Primm needs to be at least 3 lanes each way with full shoulders. Remove the agricultural checkpoint for automobiles but keep it on the side for commercial trucks with their own lanes from the NV state line.
Phase 2: Once phase 1 is completed widen the entire thing at once to ensure there is a minimum of 3 lanes each way from NV to Barstow.
Phase 3: ultimate phase. Widen the entire segment from Barstow to Primm to four lanes each way and ban semis from using the left two lanes. This allows for trucks to be able to use the right two lanes for passing un-obstructing vehicle traffic. This would be a longer term project but do this and I bet this plan works for generations.
As for the train I don't even know where it'd fit in. I'm skeptical it even happens but I'll be pleasantly surprised. We just keep hearing it'll break ground next year for years now.
After that's done work on the remaining segments all the way to Barstow at one time. Work day and night.
I really like you :-)
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 28, 2023, 05:02:58 AM
Phase 3: ultimate phase. Widen the entire segment from Barstow to Primm to four lanes each way and ban semis from using the left two lanes.
State law already bans them from the left two lanes on a four lane freeway, notwithstanding the lack of enforcement the past several years. (PC 21655(b))
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 28, 2023, 12:30:01 PM
As I said, I'll be surprised if the train actually gets built.
If it does, it will have to run on batteries.
Quote from: RZF on December 28, 2023, 11:40:52 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 28, 2023, 05:02:58 AM
As for the train I don't even know where it'd fit in. I'm skeptical it even happens but I'll be pleasantly surprised. We just keep hearing it'll break ground next year for years now.
I don't even see how the train will see a decent ROI. Currently the best alternative to driving from the LA area to Vegas is very cheap and somewhat convenient - a $30-$50 45-minute flight. Round trip, that's cheaper than what you'd pay in gas driving up there.
But how long does it take to get to the airport, get through security, get on the plane, get off the ground, etc?
Brightline has shown it's able to execute with its Miami to Orlando service - and it's proven itself competitive with (and cheaper than) flying. Still TBD if they can profit with it - but a lot of folks were doubtful it would even see the light of day. So I'll give them the benefit of the doubt about their ability to execute.
If they do execute the LA to LV train, Brightline will have the best sales pitch ever for their service - people stuck in traffic on I-15 watching the big yellow Brightline train whizzing past, wondering about their life choices leading them to that moment.
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 29, 2023, 05:13:51 PM
Quote from: RZF on December 28, 2023, 11:40:52 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 28, 2023, 05:02:58 AM
As for the train I don't even know where it'd fit in. I'm skeptical it even happens but I'll be pleasantly surprised. We just keep hearing it'll break ground next year for years now.
I don't even see how the train will see a decent ROI. Currently the best alternative to driving from the LA area to Vegas is very cheap and somewhat convenient - a $30-$50 45-minute flight. Round trip, that's cheaper than what you'd pay in gas driving up there.
But how long does it take to get to the airport, get through security, get on the plane, get off the ground, etc?
Brightline has shown it's able to execute with its Miami to Orlando service - and it's proven itself competitive with (and cheaper than) flying. Still TBD if they can profit with it - but a lot of folks were doubtful it would even see the light of day. So I'll give them the benefit of the doubt about their ability to execute.
If they do execute the LA to LV train, Brightline will have the best sales pitch ever for their service - people stuck in traffic on I-15 watching the big yellow Brightline train whizzing past, wondering about their life choices leading them to that moment.
I think that the train probably *will* end up happening, but I think the fact that you still have to travel all the way out to Rancho Cucamonga to catch it is going to limit some of the potential ridership. Driving 1-2 hours out to the Inland Empire to then catch a train can be a pretty tough sell for anybody living west of The 605...
Quote from: jdbx on December 29, 2023, 05:29:08 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 29, 2023, 05:13:51 PM
Quote from: RZF on December 28, 2023, 11:40:52 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 28, 2023, 05:02:58 AM
As for the train I don't even know where it'd fit in. I'm skeptical it even happens but I'll be pleasantly surprised. We just keep hearing it'll break ground next year for years now.
I don't even see how the train will see a decent ROI. Currently the best alternative to driving from the LA area to Vegas is very cheap and somewhat convenient - a $30-$50 45-minute flight. Round trip, that's cheaper than what you'd pay in gas driving up there.
But how long does it take to get to the airport, get through security, get on the plane, get off the ground, etc?
Brightline has shown it's able to execute with its Miami to Orlando service - and it's proven itself competitive with (and cheaper than) flying. Still TBD if they can profit with it - but a lot of folks were doubtful it would even see the light of day. So I'll give them the benefit of the doubt about their ability to execute.
If they do execute the LA to LV train, Brightline will have the best sales pitch ever for their service - people stuck in traffic on I-15 watching the big yellow Brightline train whizzing past, wondering about their life choices leading them to that moment.
I think that the train probably *will* end up happening, but I think the fact that you still have to travel all the way out to Rancho Cucamonga to catch it is going to limit some of the potential ridership. Driving 1-2 hours out to the Inland Empire to then catch a train can be a pretty tough sell for anybody living west of The 605...
You'll also be able to take Metrolink to the Rancho Cucamonga station and I'm sure eventually this train will be extended to Los Angeles Union Station.
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 29, 2023, 05:13:51 PM
Quote from: RZF on December 28, 2023, 11:40:52 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 28, 2023, 05:02:58 AM
As for the train I don't even know where it'd fit in. I'm skeptical it even happens but I'll be pleasantly surprised. We just keep hearing it'll break ground next year for years now.
I don't even see how the train will see a decent ROI. Currently the best alternative to driving from the LA area to Vegas is very cheap and somewhat convenient - a $30-$50 45-minute flight. Round trip, that's cheaper than what you'd pay in gas driving up there.
But how long does it take to get to the airport, get through security, get on the plane, get off the ground, etc?
Brightline has shown it's able to execute with its Miami to Orlando service - and it's proven itself competitive with (and cheaper than) flying. Still TBD if they can profit with it - but a lot of folks were doubtful it would even see the light of day. So I'll give them the benefit of the doubt about their ability to execute.
If they do execute the LA to LV train, Brightline will have the best sales pitch ever for their service - people stuck in traffic on I-15 watching the big yellow Brightline train whizzing past, wondering about their life choices leading them to that moment.
Sure if the State does that and doesn't improving the 15 and make commuter suffer. That'll just be another fucking bullshit ploy from the state trying to make transit seems better than it really is by making car traffic artificially worse.
But in reality, a lot of the time this freeway flows fairly well, so I doubt it will really impact drivers decisions all that much. I don't foresee this train being successful as some Claim it'll be even if drivers watch it flyby at 200 miles an hour.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 29, 2023, 08:24:17 PM
Quote from: jdbx on December 29, 2023, 05:29:08 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 29, 2023, 05:13:51 PM
Quote from: RZF on December 28, 2023, 11:40:52 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 28, 2023, 05:02:58 AM
As for the train I don't even know where it'd fit in. I'm skeptical it even happens but I'll be pleasantly surprised. We just keep hearing it'll break ground next year for years now.
I don't even see how the train will see a decent ROI. Currently the best alternative to driving from the LA area to Vegas is very cheap and somewhat convenient - a $30-$50 45-minute flight. Round trip, that's cheaper than what you'd pay in gas driving up there.
But how long does it take to get to the airport, get through security, get on the plane, get off the ground, etc?
Brightline has shown it's able to execute with its Miami to Orlando service - and it's proven itself competitive with (and cheaper than) flying. Still TBD if they can profit with it - but a lot of folks were doubtful it would even see the light of day. So I'll give them the benefit of the doubt about their ability to execute.
If they do execute the LA to LV train, Brightline will have the best sales pitch ever for their service - people stuck in traffic on I-15 watching the big yellow Brightline train whizzing past, wondering about their life choices leading them to that moment.
I think that the train probably *will* end up happening, but I think the fact that you still have to travel all the way out to Rancho Cucamonga to catch it is going to limit some of the potential ridership. Driving 1-2 hours out to the Inland Empire to then catch a train can be a pretty tough sell for anybody living west of The 605...
You'll also be able to take Metrolink to the Rancho Cucamonga station and I'm sure eventually this train will be extended to Los Angeles Union Station.
Long term, there is a proposal to extend the Brightline route westward from Barstow to the proposed CAHSR line at Lancaster and then through their proposed tunnels in the Soledad canyon/CA 14 corridor to Los Angeles Union Station. We'll see where that goes.
Mike
You'd need to widen 15 north of Devore for a widening to have any real impact. Why? Because you'd simply be moving the chokepoint otherwise. 170 miles of widening solely to improve the experience for through traffic is both a hard political sell, especially given how the CTC is increasingly opposed to widening projects.
Vegas to the Inland Empire is the perfect demonstration case for high-speed rail. 200 miles, relatively easy terrain, not much development along the path. And even better, the Vegas end will be right next to the Strip. Most people going to Vegas are just leaving their cars garaged the entire time, so why not garage them 200 miles away?
'Widen the I-15': Las Vegas mayor makes familiar request to California (https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/traffic/widen-the-i-15-las-vegas-mayor-makes-familiar-request-to-california-2972023/), Las Vegas Review-Journal, 12/27/2023
Quote
Las Vegas Mayor Carolyn Goodman carried out her New Year's Eve week tradition of calling on California officials to widen Interstate 15 south of the Nevada state line.
Following busy holiday weekends in Las Vegas, such as New Year's Eve, I-15 southbound routinely backs up for miles. Goodman has made the call for widening several times over the years, usually around holiday weekends.
New Year's Eve weekend in Las Vegas is expected to draw around 356,000 visitors.
"Welcome to all those coming to Las Vegas to celebrate and ring in 2024," Goodman said in a post on social media platform X. "We are excited that traveling between Southern California and Las Vegas may someday include the option of high speed rail, but in the meantime California needs to widen the I-15 from Barstow to Stateline."
Goodman told the Las Vegas Review-Journal that President Joe Biden's recent visit to Las Vegas to award Brightline West a $3 billion grant for their planned high-speed rail project spurred her most recent post.
"It's exciting and the focus is on Southwest infrastructure needs, but the key is that's years out to accomplish and we need relief now," Goodman said in a text message to the Review-Journal.
Despite Goodman's repeated calls for expanding the highway, Caltrans has stated multiple times that they have no plans to widen I-15 between Southern Nevada and Southern California. Caltrans didn't immediately respond Wednesday to an inquiry by the Review-Journal on if any discussions had recently been had regarding I-15 widening.
Caltrans and the Nevada Department of Transportation worked together on a $5.1 million project to bring a part-time lane to I-15, which runs for about five miles from the Nevada-California border to the agricultural checkpoint. The lane, which runs on the shoulder of the interstate, is only open to traffic between 10 a.m. and 8 p.m. Sundays and Mondays.
On Labor Day around noon, traffic began to back up near Primm, which was an approximate 12-mile improvement compared to past years when backups started around Jean, according to Caltrans.
NDOT Director Tracy Larkin Thomason said in September that the part-time lane moved where the bottleneck begins, but it didn't end the traffic issue.
"It basically seems that the bottleneck has moved from Nevada to Mountain Pass, California," Thomason said.
Quote from: Mayor Carolyn Goodman
It's exciting and the focus is on Southwest infrastructure needs, but the key is that's years out to accomplish and we need relief now.
It's so nice, that unlike rail construction, a freeway widening can be completed instantly with no need for any planning, design, or environmental review. /s
I really don't understand the resistance on the California end. I would've assumed that the interest in widening I-15 to facilitate commerce would be enough. Seems the state just wants to wash their hands of helping out Nevada and do whatever they can to not acknowledge that the corridor needs expansion. How any perspective widening of I-15 would hinder a private high speed rail venture eludes me. All of this just strikes me as being a bad neighbor (which unfortunately California has a reputation of being).
It seems obvious that the widening needs to go completely over Mountain Pass, because the slopes by themselves are enough to cause slowdowns and backups.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 06, 2024, 09:42:48 PM
Quote from: Mayor Carolyn Goodman
It's exciting and the focus is on Southwest infrastructure needs, but the key is that's years out to accomplish and we need relief now.
It's so nice, that unlike rail construction, a freeway widening can be completed instantly with no need for any planning, design, or environmental review. /s
She didn't word that right. But I think Caltrans could complete a freeway widening much faster than an HSR line. For whatever reason this country just doesn't seem to know how to build real HSR.
Some pro-transit people seem to want to actually get rid of the environmental review, when building transit/rail/etc
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 06, 2024, 09:56:13 PM
I really don't understand the resistance on the California end. I would've assumed that the interest in widening I-15 to facilitate commerce would be enough. Seems the state just wants to wash their hands of helping out Nevada and do whatever they can to not acknowledge that the corridor needs expansion. How any perspective widening of I-15 would hinder a private high speed rail venture eludes me. All of this just strikes me as being a bad neighbor (which unfortunately California has a reputation of being).
The traffic demand on I-15 in the desert is not being driven by anything that is located in California.
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on January 06, 2024, 11:18:23 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 06, 2024, 09:56:13 PM
I really don't understand the resistance on the California end. I would've assumed that the interest in widening I-15 to facilitate commerce would be enough. Seems the state just wants to wash their hands of helping out Nevada and do whatever they can to not acknowledge that the corridor needs expansion. How any perspective widening of I-15 would hinder a private high speed rail venture eludes me. All of this just strikes me as being a bad neighbor (which unfortunately California has a reputation of being).
The traffic demand on I-15 in the desert is not being driven by anything that is located in California.
Mike
Huh? What's the Interstate route from Denver or any point east, to Los Angeles? Is I-15 not part of the route used by that traffic?
Quote from: mgk920 on January 06, 2024, 11:18:23 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 06, 2024, 09:56:13 PM
I really don't understand the resistance on the California end. I would've assumed that the interest in widening I-15 to facilitate commerce would be enough. Seems the state just wants to wash their hands of helping out Nevada and do whatever they can to not acknowledge that the corridor needs expansion. How any perspective widening of I-15 would hinder a private high speed rail venture eludes me. All of this just strikes me as being a bad neighbor (which unfortunately California has a reputation of being).
The traffic demand on I-15 in the desert is not being driven by anything that is located in California.
Mike
Still massively involves commerce coming and going to/from California. It has been bad for decades and only became worse when the Ag Station was relocated from Yermo to the bottom of a grade near Primm. The freeway largely is the same as it was completed in 1965. Close to six decades of ignoring a growing problem isn't correct. It isn't as though other facilities further in the state don't get widened when needed.
Quote from: mgk920 on January 06, 2024, 11:18:23 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 06, 2024, 09:56:13 PM
I really don't understand the resistance on the California end. I would've assumed that the interest in widening I-15 to facilitate commerce would be enough. Seems the state just wants to wash their hands of helping out Nevada and do whatever they can to not acknowledge that the corridor needs expansion. How any perspective widening of I-15 would hinder a private high speed rail venture eludes me. All of this just strikes me as being a bad neighbor (which unfortunately California has a reputation of being).
The traffic demand on I-15 in the desert is not being driven by anything that is located in California.
Mike
Gee, it's a good thing it's not part of a highway system designed to run between states or anything, then.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 06, 2024, 11:32:59 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on January 06, 2024, 11:18:23 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 06, 2024, 09:56:13 PM
I really don't understand the resistance on the California end. I would've assumed that the interest in widening I-15 to facilitate commerce would be enough. Seems the state just wants to wash their hands of helping out Nevada and do whatever they can to not acknowledge that the corridor needs expansion. How any perspective widening of I-15 would hinder a private high speed rail venture eludes me. All of this just strikes me as being a bad neighbor (which unfortunately California has a reputation of being).
The traffic demand on I-15 in the desert is not being driven by anything that is located in California.
Mike
Still massively involves commerce coming and going to/from California. It has been bad for decades and only became worse when the Ag Station was relocated from Yermo to the bottom of a grade near Primm. The freeway largely is the same as it was completed in 1965. Close to six decades of ignoring a growing problem isn't correct. It isn't as though other facilities further in the state don't get widened when needed.
The whole issue stems from a bunch of Californians traveling out of state on long/holiday weekends to spend disposable income recreating elsewhere and then experiencing traffic nightmares on the way back home. That doesn't really help California's bottom line any. It's also a phenomenon that happens on the few occasional long weekends during the year, and outside of that the freeway (presumably) is perfectly capable of handing typical daily traffic loads. So why would California/Caltrans spend the tax dollars to widen a bunch of rural I-15 for a situation that happens maybe 10-20 days a year, when that money might be better spent elsewhere...? And if there's a not-to-distant mass transit project coming in the same corridor (actually in the median of this freeway, which is what's planned for the most part) that could potentially relieve the need for a freeway widening, is it wise for Caltrans to spend the money now?
Just playing devil's advocate a bit. I don't necessarily fully agree with that logic, but definitely can understand where the reluctance is coming from.
I'd be more agreeable to understanding if the issue was new as opposed to several decades old. Now it has progressed to a mainstream political controversy. One which California has been painted in a mostly negative light about. Passing the buck completely to a private high speed rail doesn't help the perception that California is a bad neighbor and can't do their infrastructure correctly anymore (worth noting, I don't think this is true).
That isn't to say the rail line is a bad idea, on paper it sounds promising. But that line is never going to be more than a partial niche solution to the larger problem.
Quote from: roadfro on January 07, 2024, 01:40:42 PM
The whole issue stems from a bunch of Californians traveling out of state on long/holiday weekends to spend disposable income recreating elsewhere and then experiencing traffic nightmares on the way back home. That doesn't really help California's bottom line any. It's also a phenomenon that happens on the few occasional long weekends during the year, and outside of that the freeway (presumably) is perfectly capable of handing typical daily traffic loads. So why would California/Caltrans spend the tax dollars to widen a bunch of rural I-15 for a situation that happens maybe 10-20 days a year, when that money might be better spent elsewhere...? And if there's a not-to-distant mass transit project coming in the same corridor (actually in the median of this freeway, which is what's planned for the most part) that could potentially relieve the need for a freeway widening, is it wise for Caltrans to spend the money now?
Just playing devil's advocate a bit. I don't necessarily fully agree with that logic, but definitely can understand where the reluctance is coming from.
This makes a good point that many forget (especially PP over on the Headlines discussion). Highways are designed for the average daily traffic, mmm plus a little bit more. They aren't designed to make the worst traffic days tolerable, especially if those days are confined to a few specific weekends. I-15 is a great example of this (and their solution: opening the shoulder when necessary is a reasonable response).
But the cost and expense of a long widening just for a few weekends is not worth it. Better to provide alternatives (Brightline), encourage people to travel at off-peak hours, or even encourage alternate routes (US 95 down to I-40). We should all be able to deal with a bit of inconvenience now and then.
Wasn't the original I-15 built using the '95/05' funding split well before that out-of-state traffic generator was even a dream (or nightmare)?
Mike
Yes, it was a chargeable corridor.
And that is the key here. Unless the feds or Nevada are going to foot the bill, there is no incentive for California to widen. The congestion is people leaving California to spend money in other states. It might be CA residents, sure, but they're not spending money in the state. Why would the state want to encourage money to go elsewhere?
I should clarify/expound my misgiving. What makes this way more irksome for me is the placement of the new Ag Station. It is literally placed in the worst possible spot to cause southbound traffic being located at the bottom of an a large incline. California is willing to spend money on stuff like that even though it is the last remaining state to regularly hassle passenger traffic (commercial I'm not questioning) with Ag inspection stations. That Ag Station could have been placed near Yermo where it originally was or even near Baker and it wouldn't cause nearly as many headaches.
Who even commutes out to the vicinity of Primm to work at that Ag station anyways? I've always been curious about that. When the Ag station was in Yermo that was at least near a decent size population.
I like to think that I'm a reasonable person about expansion. In another thread we have pie in the sky stuff like people advocating for PCH to be expanded despite the window/need for that long being long closed. Stuff like that is yeah, way out of touch with modern realities and intrastate problem. Saying f*** you to a neighboring state that has made upgrades on their end to an Interstate corridor where the traffic counts often merit expansions seems like the wrong way to do things.
I would venture to say that every Sunday/Monday, regardless of whether it's a long weekend or a normal weekend, has its slow choke points coming back into Barstow. This is not to mention the slow crawls on a Sunday or Monday through Victorville/Hesperia and the Cajon Pass. Those are equally as bad. And unless you live in the western part of the greater LA area, where you can take CA 18/138 into Palmdale and cross the San Gabriels there, you have to stay on I-15 to get into the Southland. So, I would argue that we're not talking about 10-20 days per year, but, rather, 50-60 days.
For me the best way to avoid the Orange County 500 is to just head west (advantage of living in Fresno) through Death Valley and cut over towards Ridgecrest. The weather last year made that routing difficult to accomplish due to washouts.
Quote from: RZF on January 07, 2024, 08:57:19 PM
I would venture to say that every Sunday/Monday, regardless of whether it's a long weekend or a normal weekend, has its slow choke points coming back into Barstow. This is not to mention the slow crawls on a Sunday or Monday through Victorville/Hesperia and the Cajon Pass. Those are equally as bad. And unless you live in the western part of the greater LA area, where you can take CA 18/138 into Palmdale and cross the San Gabriels there, you have to stay on I-15 to get into the Southland. So, I would argue that we're not talking about 10-20 days per year, but, rather, 50-60 days.
Although often, when I've driven it, the problem has not been "too many cars, not enough concrete", but rather "too many idiots" or issues related to bad weather (wind, washouts, etc). Often, the people who speed and weave in and out cause more congestion. You combine that with the extra truck traffic that is also trying to make time by passing other trucks (instead of staying in the truck lanes) and you have problems.
Folks tend to think of the desert land as free to build upon ... and perhaps, in terms of sheer right of way, it is. But it does have extra environmental mitigation costs these day, and there is increased concern about culverts and washouts, so the construction cost is much greater than when the route was first built.
Building the Brightline service will get some percentage of cars off the road, which will help. Finding increntives to move the truck traffic to rail (which parallels I-15 to Vegas), such that it is cheaper to do local trucking to hubs, rail between hubs with containers, and then local trucking from hubs, will also help. From the government point of view, both those are preferred, because (a) it transfers the cost to a private enterprise, and (b) it transfers the environmental risk to a private enterprise. As you have state budgets that are increasingly hampered by reduced gas tax income, that seems an attractive alternative.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 07, 2024, 08:43:40 PM
Who even commutes out to the vicinity of Primm to work at that Ag station anyways? I've always been curious about that. When the Ag station was in Yermo that was at least near a decent size population.
I'm convinced that some of these ag station employees live in neighboring states. The cars in the employee lot at a few of the ones near me always have Nevada plates. Topaz and Hallelujah Junction stick out there, being close to large population centers in Nevada but far from people in CA.
Quote from: cl94 on January 07, 2024, 11:02:33 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 07, 2024, 08:43:40 PM
Who even commutes out to the vicinity of Primm to work at that Ag station anyways? I've always been curious about that. When the Ag station was in Yermo that was at least near a decent size population.
I'm convinced that some of these ag station employees live in neighboring states. The cars in the employee lot at a few of the ones near me always have Nevada plates. Topaz and Hallelujah Junction stick out there, being close to large population centers in Nevada but far from people in CA.
I'd assume most of the workers to the Primm Ag Station live in and around Las Vegas? Not exactly a quick commute but it is on the far end of what I might find as reasonable. Exit 27 gets you to the outskirts of the Las Vegas Metro Area.
What on earth would motivate somebody to get a job like that when they can easily find a job in Vegas? I mean I understand super commuters in the bay area and southern California. But I've always wondered about these gas stations in far-flung areas.
Quote from: cl94 on January 07, 2024, 07:58:46 PM
And that is the key here. Unless the feds or Nevada are going to foot the bill, there is no incentive for California to widen. The congestion is people leaving California to spend money in other states. It might be CA residents, sure, but they're not spending money in the state. Why would the state want to encourage money to go elsewhere?
The people using I-15 to visit Las Vegas on the weekend
are the state of California.
Quote from: cl94 on January 07, 2024, 07:58:46 PM
And that is the key here. Unless the feds or Nevada are going to foot the bill, there is no incentive for California to widen. The congestion is people leaving California to spend money in other states. It might be CA residents, sure, but they're not spending money in the state. Why would the state want to encourage money to go elsewhere?
There lies the rub. If this is a big issue for Las Vegas, perhaps they could implement a hotel tax or add a surcharge to parking fees to help fund the improvements. The parking fee probably makes the most sense in that it won't penalize people who didn't drive, although the revenue required might make the cost of parking pretty steep, which could have course encourage people to fly or (one day) take the train instead or driving, which would also help to reduce congestion on I-15.
Why would Nevada push for California's style of transportation objectives with this particular item though? The entirety of I-15 south of Las Vegas to the California state line is already six lanes. Nevada has invested into improvements to I-15 whereas California doesn't want to.
Of course, the bigger elephant in the room is "California has no money" and there are few federal funding pots for rural infrastructure. The budget situation right now is...bad. Bad enough that they won't have money for a project of this scale unless the feds kick in some funding, which hahahahahahaha under any administration in the past 40 years.
Nevada has money for transportation projects right now. California does not unless the money is federal. It's as simple as that. And I say this as someone with knowledge of the transportation funding situation in both states. Brightline comes from a special federal rail pool that can't be used for roads.
Quote from: jdbx on January 08, 2024, 02:22:15 PM
Quote from: cl94 on January 07, 2024, 07:58:46 PM
And that is the key here. Unless the feds or Nevada are going to foot the bill, there is no incentive for California to widen. The congestion is people leaving California to spend money in other states. It might be CA residents, sure, but they're not spending money in the state. Why would the state want to encourage money to go elsewhere?
There lies the rub. If this is a big issue for Las Vegas, perhaps they could implement a hotel tax or add a surcharge to parking fees to help fund the improvements. The parking fee probably makes the most sense in that it won't penalize people who didn't drive, although the revenue required might make the cost of parking pretty steep, which could have course encourage people to fly or (one day) take the train instead or driving, which would also help to reduce congestion on I-15.
The problem with this is that it also penalizes people who fly into Harry Reid and rent a car, who drive from other states and come in on I-11, etc.
Quote from: jdbx on January 08, 2024, 02:22:15 PM
Quote from: cl94 on January 07, 2024, 07:58:46 PM
And that is the key here. Unless the feds or Nevada are going to foot the bill, there is no incentive for California to widen. The congestion is people leaving California to spend money in other states. It might be CA residents, sure, but they're not spending money in the state. Why would the state want to encourage money to go elsewhere?
There lies the rub. If this is a big issue for Las Vegas, perhaps they could implement a hotel tax or add a surcharge to parking fees to help fund the improvements. The parking fee probably makes the most sense in that it won't penalize people who didn't drive, although the revenue required might make the cost of parking pretty steep, which could have course encourage people to fly or (one day) take the train instead or driving, which would also help to reduce congestion on I-15.
It didn't used to be such a big issue for the Vegas valley, until California moved the Agricultural Inspection station within 6 miles of the state line. Previously when the station was way closer to Barstow (outside Yermo), the holiday weekend backup was entirely contained in rural California. Now, that backup extends frequently into Nevada where we can easily see it on the traffic cams NDOT installed with previous widening/ITS projects that the local news can also broadcast the feed of any time they want—so it's much more at the forefront of the Vegas consciousness now. It would have made more sense to relocate the ag station outside of Baker than where they put it.
Vegas already has a bunch of hotel room taxes that fund local road construction and are allocated to a variety of other things (e.g. the public money part of building Allegiant Stadium). The parking fees are all implemented by private owners (and recently too when parking used to be free, which was already a consternation to locals and many visitors), so a surcharge there isn't ideal—not to mention that the not all visitors come from California, so that would not be a completely fair allocation.
Worth noting, at least in my own experience that old station was nowhere nearly as bad. It was located on flat terrain well within the established two southbound lanes. Most people in the know (like me) would just bypass it on Yermo Road if there was a hint of a possible delay. My understanding is that the people bypassing the station was the main instigator for why the location was changed.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 09, 2024, 11:02:01 AM
Worth noting, at least in my own experience that old station was nowhere nearly as bad. It was located on flat terrain well within the established two southbound lanes. Most people in the know (like me) would just bypass it on Yermo Road if there was a hint of a possible delay. My understanding is that the people bypassing the station was the main instigator for why the location was changed.
I barely remember stopping at the old station. You'd just get waved through en masse.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 09, 2024, 11:02:01 AM
Worth noting, at least in my own experience that old station was nowhere nearly as bad. It was located on flat terrain well within the established two southbound lanes. Most people in the know (like me) would just bypass it on Yermo Road if there was a hint of a possible delay. My understanding is that the people bypassing the station was the main instigator for why the location was changed.
Same reason they moved the Truckee one. It was extremely easy to bypass it by driving a mile on local streets. Now, it's still possible to bypass the new one, just involves a bit more planning and the first sign isn't until you're past the point of no return.
Quote from: cl94 on January 09, 2024, 02:51:24 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 09, 2024, 11:02:01 AM
Worth noting, at least in my own experience that old station was nowhere nearly as bad. It was located on flat terrain well within the established two southbound lanes. Most people in the know (like me) would just bypass it on Yermo Road if there was a hint of a possible delay. My understanding is that the people bypassing the station was the main instigator for why the location was changed.
Same reason they moved the Truckee one. It was extremely easy to bypass it by driving a mile on local streets. Now, it's still possible to bypass the new one, just involves a bit more planning and the first sign isn't until you're past the point of no return.
NDOT has a huge opportunity here to be funny by just posting directions on the NV side of the border on how to bypass the stupid checkpoint. What? We're just trying eliminate backups on our stretch of I-15!
Maybe
that would get California's attention.
Quote from: cl94 on January 09, 2024, 02:51:24 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 09, 2024, 11:02:01 AM
Worth noting, at least in my own experience that old station was nowhere nearly as bad. It was located on flat terrain well within the established two southbound lanes. Most people in the know (like me) would just bypass it on Yermo Road if there was a hint of a possible delay. My understanding is that the people bypassing the station was the main instigator for why the location was changed.
Same reason they moved the Truckee one. It was extremely easy to bypass it by driving a mile on local streets. Now, it's still possible to bypass the new one, just involves a bit more planning and the first sign isn't until you're past the point of no return.
Which brings me back to "what is the point of stopping passenger vehicles?" I have yet to find a suitable explanation why this is still a thing despite every other state in the country moving away from checking anything other than commercial vehicles (thinking Ag heavy Florida most prominently). It isn't as though the commercial inspection station on I-15 doesn't have a dedicated separation away from the passenger vehicles.
The fun thing with both of the abovementioned checkpoints is that it is possible to bypass them solely using the state highway system if you know what you are doing. 80 is comically easy via SRs 431, 28, and 267, none of which are seasonal. Southern US 395 is also ridiculously easy to bypass using only state highways. Trucks legally need to report to ag stations and this is occasionally enforced during traffic stops or weigh station visits.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 09, 2024, 11:06:56 PM
Quote from: cl94 on January 09, 2024, 02:51:24 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 09, 2024, 11:02:01 AM
Worth noting, at least in my own experience that old station was nowhere nearly as bad. It was located on flat terrain well within the established two southbound lanes. Most people in the know (like me) would just bypass it on Yermo Road if there was a hint of a possible delay. My understanding is that the people bypassing the station was the main instigator for why the location was changed.
Same reason they moved the Truckee one. It was extremely easy to bypass it by driving a mile on local streets. Now, it's still possible to bypass the new one, just involves a bit more planning and the first sign isn't until you're past the point of no return.
Which brings me back to "what is the point of stopping passenger vehicles?" I have yet to find a suitable explanation why this is still a thing despite every other state in the country moving away from checking anything other than commercial vehicles (thinking Ag heavy Florida most prominently). It isn't as though the commercial inspection station on I-15 doesn't have a dedicated separation away from the passenger vehicles.
This assumes the passenger side is even staffed. Most of the time, the passenger side in Truckee is unstaffed. I have never driven through it when it is staffed and I'm through relatively often. Needles had one person just waving people in multiple car lanes through when I was there in November.
Right, so basically the passenger traffic being inspected is clearly optional. Most of the time even a station is staffed the passenger vehicles just get waved through. Why not just eliminate the passenger element to the equation and allow it to continue on the through grade of I-15 unimpeded?
Probably the same reason California can't be bothered to raise its speed limits to 75-80 on some roads. Today they were patrolling heavy on the new 405 express lanes. Those lanes should be 75MPH. Insane how people I saw pulled over on them today. Just a money grab.
Same goes for the 55MPH truck limit. Just a state set in its ways with its fucked political priorities. The fact Caltrans repeatedly says an expansion of I-15 in this area isn't even on its radar says a lot. But then again they seem like the type of agency to just up and announce some initiative to start a study of it out of nowhere so we'll see. That's pretty much what happened with the current shoulder lanes.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 09, 2024, 10:42:37 PM
NDOT has a huge opportunity here to be funny by just posting directions on the NV side of the border on how to bypass the stupid checkpoint. What? We're just trying eliminate backups on our stretch of I-15!
Maybe that would get California's attention.
... and prompt California to retaliate by stopping every vehicle by the book, leading to much worse delays ...
Quote from: kphoger on January 10, 2024, 09:52:01 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 09, 2024, 10:42:37 PM
NDOT has a huge opportunity here to be funny by just posting directions on the NV side of the border on how to bypass the stupid checkpoint. What? We're just trying eliminate backups on our stretch of I-15!
Maybe that would get California's attention.
... and prompt California to retaliate by stopping every vehicle by the book, leading to much worse delays ...
I doubt California would care. I think that's the problem. They just don't care. And I'm glad Nevada(specifically) Vegas is taking an initiative to push for better infrastructure improvements on their neighboring state even if they've completed theirs. It can still affect them. People having a bad experience heading back isn't good so it's good that Goodman is looking out for motorists getting the complete fuck you from Caltrans.
Califonia could easily do this. Missouri got their act together widening the entirety of I-70 in a year and before they've even began they're already talking about I-44. California is the fifth largest economy in the world. It could do it if it wants to. they just don't care
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 10, 2024, 10:02:20 AM
Califonia could easily do this. Missouri got their act together widening the entirety of I-70 in a year and before they've even began they're already talking about I-44. California is the fifth largest economy in the world. It could do it if it wants to. they just don't care
You're making many presumptions here.
First, it is not Caltrans that initiates projects these days. It is the regional transportation agencies, and this may not be a high priority for the agency in that area (even if there is one -- given how rural the area is). Regional transportation agencies initiate projects, which then (after they've done some preliminary design and estimates) get incorporated into the SHOPP or STIP.
Caltraysn may very well care. But there may be other priorities, and there is only so much money to go around -- and other work may be prioritized higher. Whyat may seem a priority for you may not be a priority when you have a statewide view. Often, true safety projects will have higher priority than projects that simply reduce congestion.
Lastly, you have no idea if this is in a planning process somewhere and hasn't popped out. If the project is in process, but they are still doing early design, early environmental studies, then you'll have no idea.
Want to make a difference? Go back to my headline post:
Caltrans opens draft of state highway project list for public comment (Transportation Today): https://transportationtodaynews.com/news/31866-caltrans-opens-draft-of-state-highway-project-list-for-public-comment/ . On Friday, Caltrans released its draft 2024 State Highway Operation and Protection Program (SHOPP) plan for public comment. The draft is the state's initial plan for maintaining and preserving California's transportation infrastructure and outlines how the state will fund the approximately $16 billion in projects. The plan will be open for public comment through Jan. 19, 2024 and features a new interactive dashboard that details the location and specific for each of the nearly 600 projects in the state, including nearly 100 carryover projects where Caltrans added climate adaptation, additional safety protections and bike and pedestrian elements. The plan includes 195 new projects, totaling $6.2 billion, where planning work was completed after the state adopted its Climate Action Plan for Transportation Infrastructure in 2021. Those projects include climate, safety and multimodal features. The SHOPP covers fiscal years 2024 through 2028 and funds roadway and bridge rehabilitation or replacements, along with safety improvements, bicycle and pedestrian infrastructure, operational improvements and climate adaptation projects. See http://projectbook.dot.ca.gov/
Go through the project book and make some comments.
First off, you're the one making assumptions. I already have used your post to write Caltrans about widening I 15. I've probably sent them over a dozen emails and letters about it, including my local representatives. So you have no clue what I am and I'm not doing.
Secondly, which regional transit authority handles this area in the middle of nowhere?
For starters, California has no money for rural transportation projects. The state is looking at furloughs right now, so they're not gonna throw hundreds of millions (billions?) at this.
Second, the California Transportation Commission would need to give it their blessing for state funds to be applied. I see zero chance of that happening as there are a couple of VMT hawks on it now. They poo-pooed a HOT project in the Inland Empire just last month because it would add capacity.
Third, San Bernardino County is SCAG, which is the Los Angeles MPO. I can guarantee they do not care about long-distance travel to Las Vegas, nor to they want to do anything that could be viewed as encouraging more people to drive to Vegas. CA politicians and the AG are coming down hard on MPOs regarding VMT stuff.
(Personal opinion emphasized)
They just had a surplus of over 100 billion but now they're in a deficit. The financial world sure is is funny.
I seem to remember reading that at one point Governor Sisolak (when he was in office) talked directly to Governor Newsom about this. If that didn't get the ball rolling on anything, I doubt anything would.
Quote from: cl94 on January 09, 2024, 11:16:35 PM
The fun thing with both of the abovementioned checkpoints is that it is possible to bypass them solely using the state highway system if you know what you are doing. 80 is comically easy via SRs 431, 28, and 267, none of which are seasonal. Southern US 395 is also ridiculously easy to bypass using only state highways. Trucks legally need to report to ag stations and this is occasionally enforced during traffic stops or weigh station visits.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 09, 2024, 11:06:56 PM
Quote from: cl94 on January 09, 2024, 02:51:24 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 09, 2024, 11:02:01 AM
Worth noting, at least in my own experience that old station was nowhere nearly as bad. It was located on flat terrain well within the established two southbound lanes. Most people in the know (like me) would just bypass it on Yermo Road if there was a hint of a possible delay. My understanding is that the people bypassing the station was the main instigator for why the location was changed.
Same reason they moved the Truckee one. It was extremely easy to bypass it by driving a mile on local streets. Now, it's still possible to bypass the new one, just involves a bit more planning and the first sign isn't until you're past the point of no return.
Which brings me back to "what is the point of stopping passenger vehicles?" I have yet to find a suitable explanation why this is still a thing despite every other state in the country moving away from checking anything other than commercial vehicles (thinking Ag heavy Florida most prominently). It isn't as though the commercial inspection station on I-15 doesn't have a dedicated separation away from the passenger vehicles.
This assumes the passenger side is even staffed. Most of the time, the passenger side in Truckee is unstaffed. I have never driven through it when it is staffed and I'm through relatively often. Needles had one person just waving people in multiple car lanes through when I was there in November.
What's funny is that this Ag Station could be easily bypassed by taking US 95 south to Searchlight and then NV 164/Nipton Rd west.
I mean, why go all the way to I-40?
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 10, 2024, 09:07:09 PM
I seem to remember reading that at one point Governor Sisolak (when he was in office) talked directly to Governor Newsom about this. If that didn't get the ball rolling on anything, I doubt anything would.
You recall correctly...most likely about two years ago in this very thread (here's the post I wrote (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=28989.msg2686851#msg2686851))
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 10, 2024, 09:07:09 PM
I seem to remember reading that at one point Governor Sisolak (when he was in office) talked directly to Governor Newsom about this. If that didn't get the ball rolling on anything, I doubt anything would.
Maybe as CAHWY Guy said there's something going on behind the scenes. Hopefully that's the case.
Quote from: Mark68 on January 11, 2024, 01:51:58 AM
Quote from: cl94 on January 09, 2024, 11:16:35 PM
The fun thing with both of the abovementioned checkpoints is that it is possible to bypass them solely using the state highway system if you know what you are doing. 80 is comically easy via SRs 431, 28, and 267, none of which are seasonal. Southern US 395 is also ridiculously easy to bypass using only state highways. Trucks legally need to report to ag stations and this is occasionally enforced during traffic stops or weigh station visits.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 09, 2024, 11:06:56 PM
Quote from: cl94 on January 09, 2024, 02:51:24 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 09, 2024, 11:02:01 AM
Worth noting, at least in my own experience that old station was nowhere nearly as bad. It was located on flat terrain well within the established two southbound lanes. Most people in the know (like me) would just bypass it on Yermo Road if there was a hint of a possible delay. My understanding is that the people bypassing the station was the main instigator for why the location was changed.
Same reason they moved the Truckee one. It was extremely easy to bypass it by driving a mile on local streets. Now, it's still possible to bypass the new one, just involves a bit more planning and the first sign isn't until you're past the point of no return.
Which brings me back to "what is the point of stopping passenger vehicles?" I have yet to find a suitable explanation why this is still a thing despite every other state in the country moving away from checking anything other than commercial vehicles (thinking Ag heavy Florida most prominently). It isn't as though the commercial inspection station on I-15 doesn't have a dedicated separation away from the passenger vehicles.
This assumes the passenger side is even staffed. Most of the time, the passenger side in Truckee is unstaffed. I have never driven through it when it is staffed and I'm through relatively often. Needles had one person just waving people in multiple car lanes through when I was there in November.
What's funny is that this Ag Station could be easily bypassed by taking US 95 south to Searchlight and then NV 164/Nipton Rd west.
I mean, why go all the way to I-40?
Depends on where you are going. A lot of destinations like Coachella Valley and San Diego would probably benefit from laddering southward. From I-40 using Kelso Road, NOTR, Amboy Road and CA 62 is a great back way to get to I-10 unmolested by traffic. For me, Nipton Road/NV 164 is a very viable option.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 11, 2024, 03:15:11 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 10, 2024, 09:07:09 PM
I seem to remember reading that at one point Governor Sisolak (when he was in office) talked directly to Governor Newsom about this. If that didn't get the ball rolling on anything, I doubt anything would.
Maybe as CAHWY Guy said there's something going on behind the scenes. Hopefully that's the case.
If I see anything widening related, I capture it for my site. This is what I have:
Temporary Lines / Route 15 Widening near Primm NV
In December 2021, it was reported that a new plan to ease the traffic congestion that builds up to the L.A. area following weekend getaways to Las Vegas was announced. The shoulder portion of a five-mile stretch of southbound I-15 between the Nevada state line and the California Food and Agriculture checkpoint will be converted for use as an extra lane during peak hours, California Gov. Gavin Newsom and Nevada Gov. Steve Sisolak said during a joint news conference to announce the plan. Traffic is currently reduced from three lanes to two lanes through the area, before later opening back up to three lanes. The project will use the freeway's shoulder area to keep the freeway open to three lanes of traffic during peak hours on Sundays and Mondays. The project is estimated to cost $12 million and is expected to be completed by the end of summer 2022.
(Source: KTLA, 12/6/2021)
In February 2023, it was reported that the widening of I-15 from Barstow to the Nevada state line, a project that was anticipated to complete nearly one year ago (2022), was still lingering. As of February 2023, the most noticeable progress made is the conversion of the interstate's shoulder into a third lane for one mile near the state line.
(Source: KLAS, 2/24/2023)
In March 2023, the CTC was given notice of, and in May 2023, the CTC approved, an amendment to the 2022 STIP that programs $1,629,000 in Interregional Improvement Program (IIP) funds to a new STIP project – Interstate 15 (I-15) Dynamic Cantilever Extinguishable Message Signs (EMS) project (PPNO 08-3020Y; EA 1N121) on southbound I-15 between the California Department of Food and Agriculture Mountain Pass Station and the California/Nevada State Line in San Bernardino County, for the construction capital and construction support phases in Fiscal Year 2023-24. This project is a pilot project in San Bernardino County on southbound (SB) I-15 between the California Department of Food and Agriculture Mountain Pass Station and the California/Nevada State Line. The SB I-15 lanes at the California/Nevada State Line experiences recurring traffic congestion on Sundays, Mondays and during other major events, causing severe traffic delays for extended periods. The purpose of this pilot project is to install an electronic lane control system that informs motorists when the part-time shoulder is available to be used on SB I-15 between postmile 180.90 and 185.50. This project will upgrade the signing to allow for part-time shoulder use as needed and will increase visibility. The scope of this project is comprised of installing cantilever EMS, flashing beacons, cameras, and additional roadside signs within project limits to improve operational conditions. When the I-15 Dynamic Cantilever EMS project (PPNO 3020Y) is completed, the outside shoulder will be used as a part-time third lane on this segment of SB I-15. The part-time shoulder use will be limited to Sunday and Monday peak hours. The EMS and cameras proposed in the project are Transportation Management System equipment. There is no roadway improvement nor striping involvement in this project. Once this pilot project is complete, peak congestion travel times will be monitored for three years and compared to the already completed traffic simulation analysis that evaluated the travel time savings resulting from this operational improvement. If the travel time savings are consistently achieved, these improvements will become permanent. If the project benefits are not achieved, the EMS, flashing beacons, cameras, and additional roadside signs will be removed using other funds.
(Source: March 2023 CTC Agenda, Agenda Item 2.1b.(4); May 2023 CTC Agenda, Agenda Item 2.1a.(5))
In May 2023, the CTC approved the following allocation for a locally-administered STIP project: $1,629,000. 08-SBd-015 180.9/185.5. PPNO 08-3020Y; ProjID 0823000023; EA 1N121. I-15 Dynamic Cantilever Extinguishable Message Signs. In San Bernardino County, on I-15, from California Department of Food and Agriculture Mountain Pass Station, to the California / Nevada State Line. Install dynamic cantilever Extinguishable Message Signs (EMS) to improve operational conditions along southbound I-15, between Post Miles (PM) 180.9 and 185.5. CEQA - CE, 11/08/2022; Re-validation 01/27/2023 NEPA - CE, 11/08/2022; Re-validation 01/27/2023. Right of Way Certification: 01/19/2023 Concurrent STIP Amendment for Action under Resolution 22S-13; May 2023. Allocation: CON ENG $380,000; CONST
$1,249,000.
(Source: May 2023 CTC Agenda, Agenda Item 2.5c.(4))
In August 2023, it was reported that, according to Caltrans officials, the I-15 part-time southbound travel lane is set to open for use starting Sunday, August 27, 2023. The expanded access will allow travelers to use the right shoulder past the NV/CA border every Sunday and Monday from 10 a.m. to 8 p.m.
(Source: News 3 Nevada, 8/27/2023)
As an aside, I listened to a really interesting interview on the Freeway Exit podcast with the person who was terminated from CalTrans for calling them on sneaking in a widening. I know folks here won't necessarily agree, but it was an interesting interview to listen to in order to understand how some mindsets are changing: https://www.kpbs.org/podcasts/freeway-exit/bonus-blowing-the-whistle-on-widening-freeways Description: "Former Caltrans executive Jeanie Ward-Waller shares her story of getting fired after speaking out against a freeway project near Sacramento. She says Caltrans is driven by a "mindless impulse to add more freeway lanes," and that reform-minded people at the agency are often sidelined and dismissed."
Based on what we read here, there is not always a mindless impulse to add more freway lanes.
"Mindless impulse to add more lanes." that about sums you up. The constant backups. The mayor of Vegas pleading to add a third lane. But adding lanes here would be a mindless impulse.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 11, 2024, 06:50:27 PM
"Mindless impulse to add more lanes." that about sums you up. The constant backups. The mayor of Vegas pleading to add a third lane. But adding lanes here would be a mindless impulse.
I didn't say that. That is how Jeanie Ward-Waller characterized it. Read what I wrote. But Caltrans right now is on a quest not to reduce congestion times or improve level of service; they are (in accordance with the state's environmental goals) engineering many projects to reduce VMT, meaning having less cars on the road. Their stated goals. Not mine. I rarely if ever state my personal opinion here -- rather, I try to explain what I see Caltrans doing.
Her points in this area were interesting -- how Caltrans often will split projects in such a way as to escape environmental review -- in this case, they were simply resurfacing that section of I-80, oh, and resurfacing the median as well. No widening here. But a future project is then talking about restriping the lanes to give an extra lane, without taking any land. Her point was that the two should be viewed together. She also talked about how Caltrans will do one small area of widening, without thinking about the impact of that change further down the freeway. I-15 is a great example of that: they add the temporary lines, but they don't think about the impact when those lanes go away. She talked about the conflicts going on in Caltrans right now between the old Engineers focused on highways who were running the show, doing battle with the newer folks (such as those on the CTC) who are taking the larger holistic picture, and how that impacts what is proposed and what gets done. So it was an interesting interview to listen to... while commuting on the 405.
Do *I* think that segment of I-15 should be widened? I look at it as an engineer, as someone familiar with government budgets and government projects, and with the color of money. I think there are many other projects that will reduce more regular congestion than the I-15 project, which will reduce congestion, but congestion that occurs only in limited windows. I'm also aware of the projects that will be likely to get through. I'm also aware that Caltrans has limited funds for widening, and much more funds for road REPAIR that can't be used on new widening. I also know that new projects must consider Active Transportation Elements (that's in the law), and this project would get very low scores in that area -- not a great area for pedestrians and buses.
I also believe in induced demand, because I've seen and lived it. I commuted across I-405 during the construction of the HOV lanes. Horrid during construction, Great for about a year after they opened. Now -- even post pandemic, when more people are working from home -- the traffic is worse or as bad as it was before. 60 minutes Northridge to El Segundo in the morning. 90 minutes or more El Segundo to Northridge in the late afternoon. The lanes didn't really help.
Do I think express lanes are the answer? No. They give benefit to the wealthy or those who can afford the transponders, not to the people who drive because they have to work far away from where they live and can't afford a lot of extras.
What I do believe is the answer is to take an ENTERPRISE or HOLISTIC view of our transit networks. Get off the slower, long distance trucks. Use trains to move containers between hubs, off the freeway separated from traffic, and then use trucks locally for the last mile. If you get a lot of the trucks off the highways, you'll reduce congestion AND improve air quality and help the state meet its carbon goals.
I do suggest you listen to that interview -- listen to the entire podcast on the San Diego Freeways. You may not agree with it, but it will be interesting and give you a different point of view. I also suggest the podcast on the Big Dig in Boston, which ended up being a success story -- but also had some good lessons learned.
Thanks for the podcasts recommendations I'll listen to them. I however think widening I-15 should be one of Caltrans number one priority regarding road works.
Quote from: cahwyguy on January 11, 2024, 10:18:27 PM
What I do believe is the answer is to take an ENTERPRISE or HOLISTIC view of our transit networks. Get off the slower, long distance trucks. Use trains to move containers between hubs, off the freeway separated from traffic, and then use trucks locally for the last mile. If you get a lot of the trucks off the highways, you'll reduce congestion AND improve air quality and help the state meet its carbon goals.
This really sums up my thinking in a way I haven't adequately done. When I was on the way back from my first trip to Las Vegas in 2022, I was frustrated enough with the truck traffic on I-40 that I found myself shouting at random trucks that got in the way "YOU SHOULD BE A TRAIN."
Likewise, if there are people able and willing to use a train to commute, they should have the option to do so. That frees up capacity for those of us who prefer driving.
Quote from: cahwyguy on January 11, 2024, 10:18:27 PM
What I do believe is the answer is to take an ENTERPRISE or HOLISTIC view of our transit networks. Get off the slower, long distance trucks. Use trains to move containers between hubs, off the freeway separated from traffic, and then use trucks locally for the last mile. If you get a lot of the trucks off the highways, you'll reduce congestion AND improve air quality and help the state meet its carbon goals.
If there's one way that trucks cause congestion, it is when one truck is
very slowly passing another. Let's say we upgrade this part of I-15 to six lanes: One truck passes another in the center lane, and I pass both on the left lane. As far as taking trucks off the roadway, Missouri had an interesting proposal when considering its own six-lane upgrade (I-70) which could be considered as well: create a parallel carriageway that's dedicated to trucks, and leave the original to passenger vehicles.
Freight rail becoming more efficient and/or states investing into freight rail? Perish the thought...
That said, the decline of private freight rail since the beginning of the 20th century (especially in California) is staggering. There are so many abandoned lines and siding facilities that makes for quite the Easter Egg hunt for people like me.
So why is rail not being utilized more then? I still don't think this would fix traffic issues from passenger cars especially during peak hours.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 11, 2024, 10:55:36 PM
I however think widening I-15 should be one of Caltrans number one priority regarding road works.
Number one? Over *EVERYTHING* else?
I-15 widening is Number 1 over fixing PCH?
I-15 widening is Number 1 over completing the 710?
I-15 widening is Number 1 over fixing Route 1 in Big Sur?
I-15 widening is Number 1 over widening I-80 in the Bay Area near Sacramento?
I-15 widneing is Number 1 over completing Route 58 and the Centennial Corridor?
I-15 widening is Number 1 over widening Route 99 in the Central Valley?
I-15 widening is Number 1 over widening US 101 in the San Fernando Valley?
You get the idea. California is a big big state, and there are lots and lots of Road projects that need to be done. Road projects that impact continuing and continuous congestion every day. But a project that addresses congestion that only occurs on some weekends and for limited hours in those weekends has priority over all of those.
I don't think this proposal is even in the top 10. It may be needed, but given the other projects clamoring for limited dollars....
My point about priorities is this: If you want to get this done, it needs to be SMART.
FUNDING
You need to get the state senate and assembly folk in these districts behind this. Problem: Knowing this part of the state, these are likely strong R areas, so their representatives have little juice in the state. Further, there aren't a lot of constituents in this area, and those constituents (i.e., the folks who vote for these folks) don't care all that much about this. Hurdle number one to jump over, because if the local reps won't support this, you're not going to get others in the State Senate or Assembly to push Caltrans to do it.
Next, you need to get other state senators and assembly critters behind this. The problem is that it impacts only a small number of voters, so they don't have a lot of pull. Hurdle #2
You might have better luck at the Federal level. Get it written into an infrastructure bill as an earmark. Oh, right, earmarks are out of favor, and won't get through a Republican house -- and this would likely be proposed by a Republican congresscritter.
What about Regional funds? Those are likely sucked up by the metro areas that have continuing problems, not weekend problems?
OK, so we get Nevada to pay for it.
COMPLETE PICTURE
You need to recognize that a goal of Caltrans is to reduce greenhouse gases, and decrease VMT. So you have to engineer this as a complete project to do that. Bundle the project with support for Brightline, to get people off the road (perhaps Caltrans can fund and build some bridges, as this will be in the middle of the I-15 ROW). Consider adding HOV lanes, to encourage people to rideshare to Vegas. Consider making the lane additions more truck lanes, which would get the trucks into dedicated lanes, which will make the passenger lanes go faster. Plus, that will get the trucking unions behind this.
ENVIRONMENTAL
A killer for this project would be environmental, which is why you want to avoid portraying this as a widening. Those require full environmental reviews. Emphasize making the lanes limited hours, only open during the most congested periods. Consider promoting the lanes as AUX lanes -- additional lanes only between exits (make those truck lanes as well). Aux lanes don't have the same environmental review.
COST/BENEFIT
You need to build the story about why the state needs this -- and reducing congestion for people spending their money out of state is not the way to do that. After all, we'd rather them go to the native american casinos IN the state. At least then, there's a chance of ancillary state revenue. So this needs to be all about the trucking, and reducing truck congestion. Truck congestion increases idling, which works against greenhouse goals.
My point is: Far too often, the "yungguns" in this group don't understand the full picture, as you and I do. Nothing is as simple as it seems, especially when working with government processes. There are completing priorities that are not always public, political power comes into play, impacted constituents and their power comes into play. Who benefits comes into play. ENvironmental factors come into play. How the project looks to the public comes into play.
It is never simple.
I think another problem is trying to make this one big project... break it up into phases. 5 to 10 miles at a time. It's better than stalling out a 50+ mile widening and twiddling thumbs over funding for 30 years.
Quote from: cahwyguy on January 12, 2024, 11:24:06 AM
My point about priorities is this: If you want to get this done, it needs to be SMART.
FUNDING
COMPLETE PICTURE
You need to recognize that a goal of Caltrans is to reduce greenhouse gases, and decrease VMT. So you have to engineer this as a complete project to do that. Bundle the project with support for Brightline,
COST/BENEFIT
It is never simple.
California has had great success with all of these, as evident by that high speed rail project between Los Angeles and San Francisco. Completed 5 years ago, that project was delivered under budget and ahead of schedule, and has moved millions off of I-5 and CA-99. Congestion has been reduced significantly to the point major widenings on CA-99 have been canceled due to no more need. /s
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 12, 2024, 12:00:44 PM
Congestion has been reduced significantly to the point major widenings on CA-99 have been canceled due to no more need. /s
Well, that's certainly true: There is only one remaining segment that has a widening in the works left, as I recall.
But that project -- which is quite separate from Caltrans and run by a different authority, funded by NON-highway funds, is much much more ambitious, going through more populated areas, and through much more difficult terrain. I think it is a wait-and-see as to how successful it will be, and we may not be able to judge that success until the project is completed.
As for the delays and costs there: I refer folks again to the excellent podcast on the Big Dig https://www.wgbh.org/podcasts/the-big-dig . That project was well over budget (by multiple billions), well over schedule, and had numerous legal battles -- but in the end, was a success for Boston. So I don't think we can judge California's HSR project by where it is now. It is like judging the Big Dig in the early days of construction.
Since truck and passenger vehicle traffic can surge so high, I would go with 4 lanes in each direction. Trucks stay in the right two lane. The far left lane is meant for passing. Now you can have 80 MPH as a speed limit with a 10 MPH margin given by CHP.
At the border, eliminate the ag station. Have a truck-only inspection area with certain companies carrying certain loads given a pass through. At that station place a group of emergency responders (police, fire, ambulance, tow trucks) to keep I-15 safe. On order to allow coverage by ER units going both ways, build into the median "Official Use Only" U-turn setups with no more than 1 mile between them.
Add in another large ER setup or two between Barstow and the border along with rest areas and services capable of handling commercial vehicles. This will make 1-15 through the desert as safe and well serviced as possible.
Quote from: cahwyguy on January 12, 2024, 10:08:06 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 11, 2024, 10:55:36 PM
I however think widening I-15 should be one of Caltrans number one priority regarding road works.
Number one? Over *EVERYTHING* else?
I-15 widening is Number 1 over fixing PCH?
I-15 widening is Number 1 over completing the 710?
I-15 widening is Number 1 over fixing Route 1 in Big Sur?
I-15 widening is Number 1 over widening I-80 in the Bay Area near Sacramento?
I-15 widneing is Number 1 over completing Route 58 and the Centennial Corridor?
I-15 widening is Number 1 over widening Route 99 in the Central Valley?
I-15 widening is Number 1 over widening US 101 in the San Fernando Valley?
You get the idea. California is a big big state, and there are lots and lots of Road projects that need to be done. Road projects that impact continuing and continuous congestion every day. But a project that addresses congestion that only occurs on some weekends and for limited hours in those weekends has priority over all of those.
I don't think this proposal is even in the top 10. It may be needed, but given the other projects clamoring for limited dollars....
Well, you make very good points. I worded my post wrong. I should've just said it should be a high priority for Caltrans. All the projects you listed are very much in need just as much as I-15 is.
I don't wanna sit here and compare each one because then I have to come up with specific reasons to do so and I just don't feel like doing that even if I could. But this project is very much needed.
Quote from: ozarkman417 on January 11, 2024, 11:17:44 PM
If there's one way that trucks cause congestion, it is when one truck is very slowly passing another. Let's say we upgrade this part of I-15 to six lanes: One truck passes another in the center lane, and I pass both on the left lane.
But how much does that actually affect LOS or throughput, I wonder?
Quote from: nexus73 on January 12, 2024, 01:01:35 PM
At the border, eliminate the ag station. Have a truck-only inspection area with certain companies carrying certain loads given a pass through. At that station place a group of emergency responders (police, fire, ambulance, tow trucks) to keep I-15 safe. On order to allow coverage by ER units going both ways, build into the median "Official Use Only" U-turn setups with no more than 1 mile between them.
Add in another large ER setup or two between Barstow and the border along with rest areas and services capable of handling commercial vehicles. This will make 1-15 through the desert as safe and well serviced as possible.
The AG station does serve a purpose -- even if it is just to make people think twice about bringing stuff into the state. Again, I'll refer to you a podcast that explains it better than I can:
Gastropod: Chocpocalypse Now! Quarantine and the Future of Food https://gastropod.com/chocpocalypse-now-quarantine-and-the-future-of-food/
GRABER: In the part of your book that focuses on food and crop quarantine, you visit a quarantine station on the California border with Arizona, it's called the Needles Inspection Station.
VEHICLE SOUND
MITCH VEGA: How you doing, bud? Good. This is his bills and all this is on here. They usually just have basic stuff. Auto parts. Yeah, nothing that concerns us. Have a good day, bud.
TWILLEY: This is Mitch Vega—he's getting the documents that say what the 18-wheeler in front of us is carrying. Needles is on the I-40, which is one of the big cross-country freeways coming into California. Every truck that comes into California on I-40, Mitch or one of his colleagues stops it.
VEGA: How you doing sir? Hazardous materials. Loads. Scotch tissue. Supply solutions. He's good. Mars Chocolate.
TWILLEY: We should hijack that one.
VEGA: We got a lot of chocolate that comes through here.
GRABER: The site is is out in the desert, there isn't much around, and it's called Needles because that's the name of a nearby city.
MANAUGH: It's basically a kind of a checkpoint that you would drive through on your way from Arizona into California. It's four lanes. There's generally about six people working there.
TWILLEY: Basically, it's a border control station run by the California Department of Agriculture. And they have one mission and one mission only, which is to intercept any plant diseases or pests that might be kind of hitchhiking their way into California from anywhere else and that might pose a threat to the California agricultural industry.
GRABER: Michele Jacobsen is in charge of the Needles Inspection Station.
MICHELE JACOBSEN: We have a lot of produce comes through. Anything. Citrus, your winter greens, kiwis coming in right now out of Italy. Sometimes South African oranges. Chile, a lot of stuff comes in through here from Chile, too. What they're doing is the inspectors are checking the bills of lading. So when the drivers pull up, they know that they have to give us our paperwork and we see what's going on.
TWILLEY: Depending on what's in the truck, Mitch and his colleagues might just wave the driver onward—like the Mars chocolate, or the auto parts. But if they're carrying produce, then it may well be subject to a quarantine order.
JACOBSEN: What's not under quarantine is easier to tell you than what's under quarantine. What's not under quarantine is a lot of your lettuces, your tomatoes are not under quarantine, your melons are not really under quarantine. Bananas, there's no quarantine on bananas. Onions and stuff don't have quarantines. But there's a lot of quarantines. It's easier to tell you what's not under quarantine.
TWILLEY: We were at the Needles checkpoint on one of the busiest days of their entire year—it was the peak of bee season, when trucks full of bees from all over the U.S. are flowing into California to pollinate all the almond trees. 75 billion bees to be precise. Every single truckload gets inspected. The ones that are pest-free get waved on. Geoff and I suited up in bee suits and Michele took us out to see some of the rejected bee trucks.
JACOBSEN: What we're doing over here is all these loads have been rejected for having pests on them. And it could be anything from a small hive beetle to any kind of an ant, it could be a fire ant. It could be a carpenter ant. And or anything that would be considered as a Q rating, which is something that is not determined to be established in California.
GRABER: Michele and her team are scouring the trucks they stop. They're searching for all kinds of tiny pests that haven't yet gotten into California, these Q-rated ones—and those are different kinds of beetles, ants, moths, flies. Because California is really concerned about what these creatures might do if they penetrate its borders.
TWILLEY: Well California is, as my garden is evidence, the fruit and vegetable capital of America. I mean, the agricultural industry here is massive. I think the latest estimate was that it's worth fifty billion dollars a year. Two thirds of America's fruits and nuts are produced in California was the stat that blew me away. And of that, it's 100 percent of all the almonds—all the almonds! All the almonds that are eaten in America and 80 percent of all the almonds that are eaten in all the world.
MANAUGH: You know, California is sort of two things at once. It's very, very geographically isolated in the sense that it is surrounded by mountains, deserts and the Pacific Ocean. And so it's kind of its own little unusual ecosystem. You know, species that have been here have been here for a very long time and species that have not been here have been, you know, separated by these natural barriers that exist. And so when newly introduced species do come here, they often find they have no natural predators.
GRABER: Michele and her team become the predators—they look to see if there are any bugs—and then they have to figure out if the bug is anything to be worried about.
TWILLEY: What's going on here?
JACOBSEN: He's checking under the microscope for a pest. He probably—did you find those on the bees, Matthew?
MATTHEW: Yeah.
JACOBSEN: So he found something on the bees and he's checking it. That's our digital imaging microscope. So he is taking a digital image and he's sending it down to our pest diagnostics lab. And they will send us back an email telling us what the insect is rated. And then we go from there.
TWILLEY: The pest diagnostics lab folks were actually on their lunch break, but as soon Michele and her team were able to confirm the bug's ID, then they would know whether they could let the truck full of bees through, or whether it had to be turned back to be disinfested—usually by pressure washing—and then reinspected. Sometimes the entire load has to be destroyed—not bees, they would just get turned away, but if it's a load of infested oranges, that's likely going straight in the incinerator.
GRABER: Infested oranges—that's a huge problem. In our citrus episode, we talked about how the Asian citrus psyllid is a massive issue because the little bug carries a bacterial disease that can completely destroy citrus crops. And California's citrus industry is valued at billions of dollars.
MANAUGH: Oh, yeah. I mean, that's part of the stress. And, you know, kind of the existential stakes actually, of the problem here is that you're dealing with unbelievably tiny little offenders, you know, things that are the size of a grain of rice or just an egg that might be the size of like a mustard seed.
TWILLEY: Michele told us that one of her proudest moments was stopping this tiny citrus psyllid at the border.
MANAUGH: Someone was moving across the country. They looked into their moving van and they had an entire tree back there. The tree itself did not look very healthy. You know, that was obviously a warning flag for them. They inspected that tree and that's when they found the citrus psyllid. And that, of course, is not something they want to let into California. It's found very fertile ground in Florida already. And it's actually wiped out an estimated five out of every seven Florida growers. It's a huge threat. And it's people like Michele Jacobson that are keeping it out of California.
GRABER: But like we said, the psyllid is the size of a grain of rice. How did they even think to look to find it in a moving van—I mean, that's not a truck carrying one of the crops of particular concern!
TWILLEY: I know! In a way it was just lucky—they also do random inspections, especially of cars and RVs with out-of-state plates and they happened to find it. But they do also have a logic to what they decide to inspect beyond just those trucks carrying crops that are on the quarantine list.
MANAUGH: The way Michele, who runs the station, described it to us, was basically "thinking like a pest." Trying to imagine where, if you're a pest, if you're a bug, if you're a little insect, where you would be in a container, in a truck bed, or maybe even just like a set of somebody's backyard patio furniture that they're bringing across the country to their new home in California. And so then that's where they'll look. So they'll think to themselves, OK, here's a nice little crack that this bug might lay some eggs here or here's a dark little corner where we might find something. And so that's where they look. And that's actually, it turns out, how they have found a lot of things.
GRABER: Do people try to sneak through things that they would want to inspect, like trees from their house or their moving pods or anything, are they trying to get things through the border?
TWILLEY: Yeah, all the time. And a lot of times people don't necessarily know. So one of the things Michele said was that people who live in their RVs and just kind of tool around, oftentimes they'll have a little like potted plant that they like to put out when they're actually kind of stationary somewhere and those can carry pests. She said, actually, one of the things she's seen is there's a huge rise in chainsaw art.
GRABER: Huh.
TWILLEY: Yeah, not a thing that I've dabbled in myself.
GRABER: I'm not sure what that is.
TWILLEY: I guess people take chainsaws and carve tree trunks and oftentimes, you know, they'll be like a little hole in the tree trunk. She's like, Oh, it's so beautiful. And then I look and there's a hole and there'll be a bug inside that hole.
GRABER: Oh my god.
TWILLEY: So she has a huge problem there. Some people lie. She pulled over a guy who had a bag of pecans, which are a Q-rated nut, and she said she was going to have to confiscate them and he said no and turned around and went back into Arizona, came back an hour later. The pecans were in his suitcase. Apparently he forgot.
GRABER: LAUGHS. Forgot in quotes.
TWILLEY: Exactly. And then the other thing that's really funny is like so many people are afraid of being caught with something that the entire freeway just before the checkpoint is just littered with people's fruit and vegetables. So people throw out their baby carrots, which they could totally bring through. Baby carrots aren't Q-rated. You know, people throw out their bananas. Not a problem. Again, there are, you know, no bananas to kill in California. So some people are so worried about being caught with something, which, of course, nothing happens. They either just take it away or clean it, but people see a checkpoint and panic. So.
GRABER: Of course Michele and her team can't check everything that comes through. They just can't. They do check all the trucks that are carrying crops that are known to harbor pests, but even there, they can't go over every inch. Traffic would be backed up for miles. So sometimes things do get through.
TWILLEY: An amazing example is the bee example. There's this incredibly disastrous bee mite that has been responsible for a lot of the colony collapse stuff you see. We talked about it in our honey episode. And this mite used to be a Q-rated pest. They used to inspect for it. Back in the 80s and 90s, they were inspecting for it. Eventually it got through. Now it's established. But that bought the time for them to start working on which chemicals can you spray your hive with to kill this mite. Those chemicals also have problems. So at the same time, they've been working on breeding something called a hygienic bee, which is resistant to the mite. So quarantine like: yes, kind of it failed in the sense of like now this mite is established in California, but it didn't fail in the sense that it bought more than a decade for people to figure out how to mitigate the consequences of the mite arriving, as it were.
MANAUGH: And I think that that's one of the things that happens, that even though things get through, you know, even though the quarantine is not total and it's not universally successful, what it does do is it gives us time to get ready for this thing to show up. And so what I mean by that is developing things like responses, treatments, even new pesticides. You know, getting people ready, maybe they have to plant new crops. Maybe they actually do need to physically design something into their existing farms or greenhouse operations to help filter out this thing that's coming. But quarantine is really vital then in the sense that even though it's not perfect, it allows us to get ready.
TWILLEY: Quarantine for plants does this, and so does quarantine for humans. You heard the expression flatten the curve everywhere in spring 2020—that was coined by the head of quarantine at the CDC, which is a story we tell in the book. He analyzed the 1918 flu and he realized the cities that did best used quarantine to buy themselves time—quarantine flattened that curve so doctors and hospitals could prepare to handle the disease. Same with the social distancing and so on of COVID. The point was to give us time to get ready and to come up with treatments and even vaccines.
GRABER: But one thing that did occur to me as I was reading about Needles Station is that it's not actually a real quarantine.
TWILLEY: Yeah, you're totally right. You called it, Cynthia. LAUGHS. The Needles border inspection station is not true quarantine, even by our own definition. But there is—you know, honestly, mostly for plants, there isn't such a thing as true quarantine because, you know, unlike people, plants are sort of not that valuable individually. And if you put it in the incinerator, you know, it's okay.
GRABER: Imagine an orange—whether it's the fruit or the tree, it's just not worth putting in quarantine to see if it gets sick. If you notice a problem, a bug of concern in the truck, or a sick plant, you might dump the whole truckload of crops or plants in the incinerator, frankly. It's cheaper to replace oranges than have a special quarantine facility to hold them. But some individual plants are indeed worth saving.
TWILLEY: And cacao is one of those plants. So we actually went and visited the International Cocoa Quarantine Center. It is in a small commuter town outside of London, bizarrely enough. Just a greenhouse. I mean, it's a big greenhouse, it's the size of an Olympic swimming pool, like a 20 minute-train ride from London.
GRABER: This one greenhouse is tasked with saving the world's chocolate. Coming up after this break.
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 12, 2024, 12:00:44 PM
Congestion has been reduced significantly to the point major widenings on CA-99 have been canceled due to no more need. /s
Not to go further OT, but man, that Merced project is such a pain. I know it will make things better but it's hell getting through there, especially southbound.
Quote from: ClassicHasClass on January 13, 2024, 02:02:39 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 12, 2024, 12:00:44 PM
Congestion has been reduced significantly to the point major widenings on CA-99 have been canceled due to no more need. /s
Not to go further OT, but man, that Merced project is such a pain. I know it will make things better but it's hell getting through there, especially southbound.
Atwater was even worse if you can believe that. That project found me detouring to County Route J7 many times.
Quote from: cahwyguy on January 12, 2024, 11:24:06 AM
You might have better luck at the Federal level. Get it written into an infrastructure bill as an earmark. Oh, right, earmarks are out of favor, and won't get through a Republican house -- and this would likely be proposed by a Republican congresscritter.
Earmarks are actually coming back into fashion, as it's been recognized that, despite their negative popular perception, they're a necessary grease that keeps the wheels turning in Congress. There were a number of earmarks attached to various bills last Congress.
However, you're likely correct that this won't get through the current Republican House, although that's much more to do with the fact that
nothing is getting through the House; if I remember correctly less than 100 bills have passed this Congress. There's a lot of infighting and friction between the various power centers in the House that make actually passing legislation way down the priorities list.
That being said, the obvious point person on this in the House, besides the Republicans who actually represent the area, would be Rep. Dina Titus (D-The Strip).
Quote from: cahwyguy on January 12, 2024, 11:24:06 AM
OK, so we get Nevada to pay for it.
Unfortunately, yeah, that might be the way it ends up going. Or more likely, /* borderline fictional content begins here */ Clark County pays for it, since Northern Nevada would probably balk at funding a road outside the state and with no obvious benefit to their region. (They're already pretty cheesed off about paying for the Athletics' stadium in Las Vegas.) Clark County is no stranger to building its own freeways, either.
However, getting them involved introduces its own complexities. If Clark County is footing the bill, it would make sense for them to want more oversight of the project than their actual (lack of) jurisdiction would grant. (This would mean you might end up with a bunch of Nevada-standard freeway in California, which would admittedly be pretty awesome from a roadgeek perspective due to how unusual it would be.)
Quote from: cahwyguyBut Caltrans right now is on a quest not to reduce congestion times or improve level of service; they are (in accordance with the state's environmental goals) engineering many projects to reduce VMT, meaning having less cars on the road. Their stated goals. Not mine. I rarely if ever state my personal opinion here -- rather, I try to explain what I see Caltrans doing.
The California state government is succeeding in reducing the number of vehicles on the roads in one manner -by way of convincing people to move out of the state. Rich people are fleeing to places like Texas and Florida (where their tax bill is vastly lower). People without money are trying to escape due to absolutely crushing living costs. I don't even know how something like a fast food restaurant can staff up in a place like Los Angeles. I don't think they're paying fry cooks $50 per hour.
Quote from: cahwyguyI also believe in induced demand, because I've seen and lived it. I commuted across I-405 during the construction of the HOV lanes. Horrid during construction, Great for about a year after they opened. Now -- even post pandemic, when more people are working from home -- the traffic is worse or as bad as it was before. 60 minutes Northridge to El Segundo in the morning. 90 minutes or more El Segundo to Northridge in the late afternoon. The lanes didn't really help.
Adding lanes to a freeway can work, but only if the design of the surface street grid is up to modern standards (which it isn't in most cases).
Houston is a good example of this. Some of the highways there are enormous; Katy Freeway is so wide that driving on it feels like driving on an airport taxi-way. But the surface street grid interfacing with it is badly outdated. There are no access controls. Driveways are everywhere. And there is lots of traffic signals. People exiting the freeway can't exit fast enough due to all the hold-ups on the surface level. Traffic backs up on the exit ramps and then it backs up into the freeway main lanes.
Cities not only need freeways, but they need surface arterial streets with limited numbers of intersections and little if any driveways connecting to them. Shopping centers, housing additions, etc need to be more self-contained and have limited outlets to the main arterials.
Quote from: cahwyguyWhat I do believe is the answer is to take an ENTERPRISE or HOLISTIC view of our transit networks. Get off the slower, long distance trucks. Use trains to move containers between hubs, off the freeway separated from traffic, and then use trucks locally for the last mile.
I would agree with this, but America's rail industry is even more of a shit-show than the trucking industry. We have freight trains up to 3 miles long with only two human beings on board to operate and be on the lookout for any mechanical problems. But that's not good enough. The executives want only one employee on board. Eventually we're going to have a "bomb train" derail and wipe out a small town.
Quote from: Plutonic PandaSo why is rail not being utilized more then? I still don't think this would fix traffic issues from passenger cars especially during peak hours.
Passenger rail works only in dense population centers. It costs far too much for train service to adequately cover suburbs, small cities and towns. Even bus service has to be government-subsidized in small cities like the one where I live (and the service does not run 24/7 either). I'll also repeat the fact that standing at a bus stop exposed to the weather sucks ass. Right now it's really bad (currently 10°F and windy). Being able to drive from point A to point B inside a warm, personal vehicle can be pretty nice.
America's freight rail industry seems only interested in cutting costs. They're "decommissioning" far more miles of existing track than they're building new. They're reducing manpower, but demanding the remaining employees work marathon schedules and be on-call 24/7 always. Don't take vacations. Got a relative in the hospital? Kiss our ass. Work anyway or get fired. That's how our freight rail industry rolls these days.
Quote from: Scott5114Earmarks are actually coming back into fashion, as it's been recognized that, despite their negative popular perception, they're a necessary grease that keeps the wheels turning in Congress.
I think the effort of eliminating earmarks did just as much to help polarize politics as the cable news industry has done. If earmarks were allowed to become popular again you would see more lawmakers working across the aisle to make deals. The environment would grow more moderate
and sane. Without those "sleazy" earmarks the politicians have no motivation to make deals. Instead they become performative jack-asses trying to media-whore their way onto cable TV.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 13, 2024, 11:57:59 PM
Even bus service has to be government-subsidized in small cities like the one where I live (and the service does not run 24/7 either).
Pretty much every road (except for some turnpikes) is government-subsidized, so I don't really see why that would be a problem with a bus or a train.
Passenger rail lines cost an absolutely profane amount of money to build, even slow-speed ones.
Bus lines in anything but big cities bleed red ink like mad. Ridership numbers are crap. It's Sunday afternoon now as I'm writing this and the temperature still hasn't got above 10°F. Windy too. Lots of fun waiting at a bus top exposed to that. Even in good weather a passenger still can't carry more than a bag or two of groceries onto a bus. Here in Lawton the city is spread out enough the limited number of bus routes require most passengers to walk at least a few blocks to reach the nearest bus stop. Now the bus system has to compete with services like Uber which, unlike our bus service, is available late in the evening. If someone partied too hard and needs a ride home he (or one of his friends) will can call an Uber rather than put him on a bus. Riding the bus is not fun or convenient.
While most streets and highways are government funded (the gasoline taxes we pay at the pump provide a healthy chunk) that pavement serves more purposes than just helping people commute to work.
^ I guess everyone has convenient access to a car, and screw everyone who doesn't / can't afford it?
I always found it a little odd when people can afford and are physically able to drive but yet don't. My uncle is like that, he makes a bunch of money and even collects cars. The man is super hesitant to drive on high speed roads for whatever reason and goes way out of his way to find transit alternates. The fact that he is fine with flying but not driving moderate-long distances makes it all the more vexing as an observer.
None of that is to say that there shouldn't be public transit options available those who need them.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 11, 2024, 10:55:48 PM
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This really sums up my thinking in a way I haven't adequately done. When I was on the way back from my first trip to Las Vegas in 2022, I was frustrated enough with the truck traffic on I-40 that I found myself shouting at random trucks that got in the way "YOU SHOULD BE A TRAIN."
Likewise, if there are people able and willing to use a train to commute, they should have the option to do so. That frees up capacity for those of us who prefer driving.
Every time I see a double-trailer truck (or heaven forbid, the TRIPLE-trailer ones you sometimes see out west), I scream, "Trains belong on the RAILROAD, not on the HIGHWAY!"
And don't even get me stated on the topic of so-called "autonomous vehicles" being allowed on our streets and highways.
Quote from: SSR_317 on January 14, 2024, 06:45:21 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 11, 2024, 10:55:48 PM
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This really sums up my thinking in a way I haven't adequately done. When I was on the way back from my first trip to Las Vegas in 2022, I was frustrated enough with the truck traffic on I-40 that I found myself shouting at random trucks that got in the way "YOU SHOULD BE A TRAIN."
Likewise, if there are people able and willing to use a train to commute, they should have the option to do so. That frees up capacity for those of us who prefer driving.
Every time I see a double-trailer truck (or heaven forbid, the TRIPLE-trailer ones you sometimes see out west), I scream, "Trains belong on the RAILROAD, not on the HIGHWAY!"
And don't even get me stated on the topic of so-called "autonomous vehicles" being allowed on our streets and highways.
The land trains (three trailers) are mostly a Nevada special. It isn't hard to pass them on the likes of two lane roads like US 95 north of Las Vegas (thinking of the I-11 to Reno fans in the crowd).
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 14, 2024, 02:45:30 PM
I always found it a little odd when people can afford and are physically able to drive but yet don't. My uncle is like that, he makes a bunch of money and even collects cars. The man is super hesitant to drive on high speed roads for whatever reason and goes way out of his way to find transit alternates. The fact that he is fine with flying but not driving moderate-long distances makes it all the more vexing as an observer.
None of that is to say that there shouldn't be public transit options available those who need them.
There are quite a few people who are legit scared of both driving fast and having other people drive fast around them. I think this is part of what fuels the "everybody drives too fast" sentiment that always pervades debates about speed limits.
Quote from: vdeane on January 14, 2024, 08:53:43 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 14, 2024, 02:45:30 PM
I always found it a little odd when people can afford and are physically able to drive but yet don't. My uncle is like that, he makes a bunch of money and even collects cars. The man is super hesitant to drive on high speed roads for whatever reason and goes way out of his way to find transit alternates. The fact that he is fine with flying but not driving moderate-long distances makes it all the more vexing as an observer.
None of that is to say that there shouldn't be public transit options available those who need them.
There are quite a few people who are legit scared of both driving fast and having other people drive fast around them. I think this is part of what fuels the "everybody drives too fast" sentiment that always pervades debates about speed limits.
The strange thing is that my grandpa (his father) got the same way when he was in his 50s. My grandpa was worse in that he was a panicky backseat driver and would scream "LOOK OUT" a lot.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 14, 2024, 06:55:00 PM
Quote from: SSR_317 on January 14, 2024, 06:45:21 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 11, 2024, 10:55:48 PM
...
This really sums up my thinking in a way I haven't adequately done. When I was on the way back from my first trip to Las Vegas in 2022, I was frustrated enough with the truck traffic on I-40 that I found myself shouting at random trucks that got in the way "YOU SHOULD BE A TRAIN."
Likewise, if there are people able and willing to use a train to commute, they should have the option to do so. That frees up capacity for those of us who prefer driving.
Every time I see a double-trailer truck (or heaven forbid, the TRIPLE-trailer ones you sometimes see out west), I scream, "Trains belong on the RAILROAD, not on the HIGHWAY!"
And don't even get me stated on the topic of so-called "autonomous vehicles" being allowed on our streets and highways.
The land trains (three trailers) are mostly a Nevada special. It isn't hard to pass them on the likes of two lane roads like US 95 north of Las Vegas (thinking of the I-11 to Reno fans in the crowd).
This. Trucks aren't that hard to pass and they are often willing to let you pass. It's the oblivious car drivers who can't drive a steady speed and refuse to let others pass that cause issues. If you're a timid driver who refuses to drive faster than 70 no matter what, you may find trucks hard to pass, but accepted convention out west is to go 10-15 above to pass and slow down once the maneuver is complete. I rarely have issues passing in Nevada unless it's an unusually curvy section of road.
As far as why trucking is so prevalent out west, blame the private freight railroads for sucking. The rail lines in/out of SoCal and the Bay Area are among the most congested in the country, to the point where companies will often truck freight from the ports to Nevada/Utah/Arizona because that saves a ton of time. Since the railroads only care about short-term profit, they won't add capacity as that eats into profits. Every line in/out of California needs another track, but that will not happen unless the feds fund all of it.
I should also add that many important city pairs lack a direct railroad connection between them, even if it seems logical. For example, there is no N-S rail line between the Central Valley and I-15.
Quote from: sprjus4I guess everyone has convenient access to a car, and screw everyone who doesn't / can't afford it?
That's reality for any Americans living outside a densely populated major metro area. Those who don't have a car will be blowing a lot of money calling Uber. Or they'll be looking like a crackhead, pedaling around town on a bicycle.
Quote from: vdeaneThere are quite a few people who are legit scared of both driving fast and having other people drive fast around them.
Lawton has an over-abundance of such drivers. We have a lot of people who deliberately drive 10-20mph under the posted speed limit.
Turn signals? What are those? These people make I-44 "lots of fun." They'll come to a dead stop at the end of the on-ramp, having everyone else slamming their brakes. A few weeks ago I got caught up in a chain-reaction collision because some derpy-derp couldn't decide if they were going to get on I-44 or take the other ramp to 2nd Street. Got some good front end damage to my truck -all thanks to one of those slower "safer" drivers.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 14, 2024, 09:32:04 PM
Quote from: sprjus4I guess everyone has convenient access to a car, and screw everyone who doesn't / can't afford it?
That's reality for any Americans living outside a densely populated major metro area. Those who don't have a car will be blowing a lot of money calling Uber. Or they'll be looking like a crackhead, pedaling around town on a bicycle.
Or, as you saw Lawton says, a bus system. Not everyone drives, and those all aren't "crackheads".
That whole section of I-44 through Lawton needs to be reworked and made 3 lanes each way to "future proof it" along with redoing the interchanges.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 15, 2024, 01:06:39 AM
That whole section of I-44 through Lawton needs to be reworked and made 3 lanes each way to "future proof it" along with redoing the interchanges.
That section is quite odd. It was built in the early 60's as a connector to the HE Bailey turnpike to OKC. I would guess the Feds made some demands as the RoW north of Rogers Lane is quite narrow plus the bridge over Sheridan Road has no shoulders and that stretch has no inside shoulders. IMO it's odd because immediately to the east are two rail lines. One is still active (BNSF) and the other is a remnant of the old Rock Island line that was removed in the 80's? There has been plenty of "spare" land for widening but nary a peep from ODOT or the area State reps.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 14, 2024, 02:45:30 PM
I always found it a little odd when people can afford and are physically able to drive but yet don't.
Heck, back before I got married, I would sometimes walk three blocks and then
hitchhike the 1½ miles to community college—just because I enjoyed it more than driving my car there. (This was in the western suburbs of Chicago.)
Quote from: kphoger on January 15, 2024, 01:58:01 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 14, 2024, 02:45:30 PM
I always found it a little odd when people can afford and are physically able to drive but yet don't.
Heck, back before I got married, I would sometimes walk three blocks and then hitchhike the 1½ miles to community college—just because I enjoyed it more than driving my car there. (This was in the western suburbs of Chicago.)
I did a fair amount of walking when I stayed at my dad's apartment in downtown Chicago. There really a good way to get around other than on foot considering parking was hard enough to find. It was even harder considering I was driving a 1997 Chevy 1500 in high school. I usually just kept it in the parking garage and made due unless I was leaving downtown.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 15, 2024, 02:06:46 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 15, 2024, 01:58:01 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 14, 2024, 02:45:30 PM
I always found it a little odd when people can afford and are physically able to drive but yet don't.
Heck, back before I got married, I would sometimes walk three blocks and then hitchhike the 1½ miles to community college—just because I enjoyed it more than driving my car there. (This was in the western suburbs of Chicago.)
I did a fair amount of walking when I stayed at my dad's apartment in downtown Chicago. There really a good way to get around other than on foot considering parking was hard enough to find. It was even harder considering I was driving a 1997 Chevy 1500 in high school. I usually just kept it in the parking garage and made due unless I was leaving downtown.
I lived far enough west that public transit wasn't great, but it wasn't completely terrible either.
My all-time best hitchhikes in the Chicago area were these:
1. I got off the Blue Line L at Harlem after dark. I put a thumb out while standing at the CTA bus stop. A pickup truck stopped for me, I got in the back and lay down out of sight. 1¾ miles later, I knocked on the rear window, and he stopped to let me out at Harlem & Augusta.
2. I found myself in New Lenox on a Saturday, but needed to get back to Wheaton. (Long story how that happened.) Taking Metra back would have taken FOREVER because of the limited weekend schedule, so... I decided to hitchhike to Joliet and hopefully find a Pace bus north from there—not really sure it was even possible So I made a hitchhiking sign that said "Joliet" and flew it at the corner of Lincoln Hwy and Cedar Rd, on the sidewalk in front of a gas station. A guy in a work van stopped for me and ended up taking me all the way to Warrenville after first going to Joliet—dropping me off just five miles from my apartment. He dealt with car dealerships for work, and that's the way his route was going.
3. I was waiting for Pace bus from Wheaton to Forest Park after dark during a blizzard. It didn't seem to be coming, so I gave up and decided to take Metra instead. While I was walking up a residential street in Wheaton, on my way to the train station, I put out my thumb. The car stopped. He took me all the way to Stone Park or somewhere like that, on North Avenue, 15 miles away. I was able to catch a different Pace bus from there to my destination.
Quote from: cl94 on January 14, 2024, 09:19:57 PM
As far as why trucking is so prevalent out west, blame the private freight railroads for sucking. The rail lines in/out of SoCal and the Bay Area are among the most congested in the country, to the point where companies will often truck freight from the ports to Nevada/Utah/Arizona because that saves a ton of time. Since the railroads only care about short-term profit, they won't add capacity as that eats into profits. Every line in/out of California needs another track, but that will not happen unless the feds fund all of it.
Emphasis on short-term. They'll even terminate profitable lines if the immediate payoff from decommissioning is high enough. The hedge funds that now own the railroads are basically doing the same thing to them that Eddie Lambert did to Sears and Kmart.
Quote from: sprjus4Or, as you saw Lawton says, a bus system. Not everyone drives, and those all aren't "crackheads".
The only people I see pedaling bicycles around town anymore do look like crackheads. They're grown adults riding child-size dirt bikes
or whatever kinds of bikes they can manage to steal. Criminal demand for stolen bikes is so high in Lawton there are people literally driving around town with battery operated power tools ready to cut through any locks or bicycle racks they encounter. You can't simply lock up a bicycle and leave it unattended anymore here.
Quote from: Plutonic PandaThat whole section of I-44 through Lawton needs to be reworked and made 3 lanes each way to "future proof it" along with redoing the interchanges.
ODOT does the bare minimum it can in Lawton. Rogers Lane would probably be upgraded into an Interstate highway before ODOT would do a full 3x3 upgrade of I-44 thru the Lawton area. That's how remote the chances are. Nevertheless, much of I-44 thru Lawton
and especially Fort Sill needs to be completely re-built. I wouldn't expect ODOT to do any more than a 2x2 replacement. Lawton would probably have to undergo a population boom and gain a lot of political clout before anything bigger could happen.
Just a few days ago ODOT started some kind of maintenance project on a couple I-44 bridges over railroad tracks just South of the Cache Road interchange. It's a complete bitch driving through there. There's a single lane each way and that single lane is probably not more than 10' wide, hemmed in with concrete Jersey barriers. I thought I was going to scrape up the paint on my pickup truck driving through there at only 40mph. I'm not driving through that crap again until they're finished.
The "newer" tri-level bridges in the Cache Road/I-44 interchange now look like hell. They were "remodeled" about a decade ago -basically just new paint and some work on the old concrete. Rust from the 50+ year old bridge structure has been leeching through for years.