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Author Topic: PA-NJ-DE Delaware River Crossings  (Read 46809 times)

Alps

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Re: PA-NJ-DE Delaware River Crossings
« Reply #125 on: March 22, 2021, 09:43:59 PM »

Sign 95 for North-East Philadelphia!

famartin

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Re: PA-NJ-DE Delaware River Crossings
« Reply #126 on: March 22, 2021, 10:00:49 PM »

Good looking DRPA signage? What is this world coming to‽ They're Highway Gothic, too, which is nice. Has the DRPA ever actually used Clearview?

The Commodore Barry Bridge on the PA where they built the ramps to the soccer stadium. I believe that's their only dabbling in Clearview.
The signs for those ramps look to be more PennDOT spec than DRPA.  Such would make sense given that those signs are of the same vintage as the related signage along I-95. 

With the exits for 95 being the first thing you come to after crossing the bridges, it presents relatively unique situation where the normal control cities don't make much sense, as it would be much more direct to stay in Jersey to go North to Trenton/NYC.  In my years of commuting to Trenton, I've only crossed a bridge maybe 2 or 3 times going straight to Trenton, and maybe 10 times total to go someplace in PA first before continuing North. 

Honestly, the best control city would probably be Bensalem or something along those lines for 95 North from the Walt or Betsy Ross. 
With regards to the westbound signage just after the Walt Whitman Bridge toll plaza; maybe the DRPA should've taken a cue from the 2000-2001 vintage signs along I-95 northbound near the airport for through-traffic & the Platt Bridge (PA 291) and sign I-76 westbound for Valley Forge (or even a University City/Valley Forge pairing) & use Central Phila. (if Central Philadelphia causes signboard width issues) for I-95 northbound.   FWIW, the 90s-vintage PennDOT ramp signage for I-95 northbound just below the bridge at Front St. use Central Phila.

For westbound traffic coming off the Ben Franklin Bridge (I-676/US 30); one could use Northeast Philadelphia for I-95 northbound.  Most of the neighboring ramp signage along Columbus Blvd. already use such.

The original DRPA city-pair listing for I-95 northbound from the Betsy Ross Bridge was Bristol/Trenton.  IMHO, such should've remained regardless of the I-95 reroute further north.  Maybe using just Bristol or a Trenton/New York pairing would've been other logical options here.

The bottom line here is, just like signage in North Jersey when one gets close to the Metropolitan NYC area, that just blindly following MUTCD for control city listing in certain metro scenarios without applying logic & common sense is not sound practice IMHO.



Untitled by Eric Butler, on Flickr
The fore-mentioned control city issues (personally, I have no issue with still using Trenton for I-95 northbound at this location) along with general APL issues in general aside, my only gripe with the new signs is the smallish numerals for both the I-76 & I-95 shields.   In all fairness, the DPRA isn't the only offender of such here; but the larger numerals from the old signs were much more readable at a distance.

I don't necessarily think using Trenton at I-76 is bad, but it is inconsistent, since the Ben Franklin Bridge/I-676 now signs "New York" instead of Trenton, and they are close enough such that they same northbound city should be used. Looking closer at the situation at the Betsy Ross Bridge makes me strongly suspect that DRPA didn't get the memo from PennDOT that they want to use New York instead of Trenton now.

As far as the smaller numbers, that seems to be "the thing" lately. Most new guide signs, whether Gothic or Clearview, are now using the smaller numbers in the Interstate shield. I'm guessing this was a relatively recent and fairly subtle change in MUTCD specifications, probably intended to avoid the numbers looking blurred with the white shield outline.
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RobbieL2415

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Re: PA-NJ-DE Delaware River Crossings
« Reply #127 on: March 22, 2021, 10:15:55 PM »


Good looking DRPA signage? What is this world coming to‽ They're Highway Gothic, too, which is nice. Has the DRPA ever actually used Clearview?

The Commodore Barry Bridge on the PA where they built the ramps to the soccer stadium. I believe that's their only dabbling in Clearview.

What I find interesting is they reverted back to "Trenton" instead of using "New York" (maybe DRPA didn't get the memo from PennDOT)

I'm guessing they figured if you're coming from that way, you're highly unlikely trying to go to NY. I'd actually consider using Yardley for that sign.

Perhaps, but there are other places you could make that argument (the Betsy Ross Bridge, for example) where they changed them to "New York" anyway (which, I suppose, suggests DRPA did get the memo? Or is the entirety of the interchange at the Betsy Ross Bridge under PennDOT jurisdiction?)

Here's the Betsy Ross Bridge signage, which arguably makes even less sense.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9928051,-75.0781829,3a,75y,329.35h,84.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbBb_E5CuL5Y8YKX_1QV02Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
I am assuming the covered sign will read Aramingo St.
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davewiecking

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Re: PA-NJ-DE Delaware River Crossings
« Reply #128 on: March 23, 2021, 09:26:59 AM »


Good looking DRPA signage? What is this world coming to‽ They're Highway Gothic, too, which is nice. Has the DRPA ever actually used Clearview?

The Commodore Barry Bridge on the PA where they built the ramps to the soccer stadium. I believe that's their only dabbling in Clearview.

What I find interesting is they reverted back to "Trenton" instead of using "New York" (maybe DRPA didn't get the memo from PennDOT)

I'm guessing they figured if you're coming from that way, you're highly unlikely trying to go to NY. I'd actually consider using Yardley for that sign.

Perhaps, but there are other places you could make that argument (the Betsy Ross Bridge, for example) where they changed them to "New York" anyway (which, I suppose, suggests DRPA did get the memo? Or is the entirety of the interchange at the Betsy Ross Bridge under PennDOT jurisdiction?)

Here's the Betsy Ross Bridge signage, which arguably makes even less sense.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9928051,-75.0781829,3a,75y,329.35h,84.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbBb_E5CuL5Y8YKX_1QV02Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
I am assuming the covered sign will read Aramingo St.
If it doesn’t say Aramimgo Ave. several here will have a fit.

Was just looking at the ramps in this area (iPad GE), and on certain zoom levels, there is an amusing collection of old and new image squares...
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PHLBOS

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Re: PA-NJ-DE Delaware River Crossings
« Reply #129 on: March 23, 2021, 11:38:07 AM »

I don't necessarily think using Trenton at I-76 is bad, but it is inconsistent, since the Ben Franklin Bridge/I-676 now signs "New York" instead of Trenton, and they are close enough such that they same northbound city should be used. Looking closer at the situation at the Betsy Ross Bridge makes me strongly suspect that DRPA didn't get the memo from PennDOT that they want to use New York instead of Trenton now.
IMHO, the use of Trenton on northbound I-95 signage in this region is still appropriate even though the route number itself no longer approaches the Trenton area.  Such is still the easiest way to get to Trenton (I-95 North to I-295 to US 1 North) from Philadelphia.

While changing the eastbound I-676 signage for I-95 from Trenton to New York is understandable, though not necessary IMHO; the westbound I-676 signs from the bridge for such could've still kept Trenton and the big panels approaching & at the northbound I-95 ramp could been modified/replaced with ones that feature Trenton/New York combos.

Again, for the Betsy Ross Bridge signs, the use of Trenton at this location is would still, IMHO, be appropriate.  I equate this listing oddity to the recent change from Camden to Philadelphia for the southbound Garden State Parkway signs for Exit 129 (I-95/NJ Turnpike) but the southbound ramp sign beyond the toll plaza still lists Trenton... per the northbound Exit 129 signs.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 05:59:50 PM by PHLBOS »
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famartin

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Re: PA-NJ-DE Delaware River Crossings
« Reply #130 on: March 23, 2021, 12:36:33 PM »

Again, for the Betsy Ross Bridge signs, the use of Trenton at this location is still appropriate.  I equate this listing oddity to the recent change from Camden to Philadelphia for the southbound Garden State Parkway signs for Exit 129 (I-95/NJ Turnpike) but the southbound ramp sign beyond the toll plaza still lists Trenton... per the northbound Exit 129 signs.
Then you’ll have to take that up with PennDOT, since it says “New York” at the Betsy Ross Bridge now.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9928051,-75.0781829,3a,75y,329.35h,84.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbBb_E5CuL5Y8YKX_1QV02Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
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Re: PA-NJ-DE Delaware River Crossings
« Reply #131 on: March 23, 2021, 01:25:28 PM »

Again, for the Betsy Ross Bridge signs, the use of Trenton at this location is still appropriate.  I equate this listing oddity to the recent change from Camden to Philadelphia for the southbound Garden State Parkway signs for Exit 129 (I-95/NJ Turnpike) but the southbound ramp sign beyond the toll plaza still lists Trenton... per the northbound Exit 129 signs.
Then you’ll have to take that up with PennDOT, since it says “New York” at the Betsy Ross Bridge now.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9928051,-75.0781829,3a,75y,329.35h,84.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbBb_E5CuL5Y8YKX_1QV02Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192


New York was made the primary control city for I-95 heading north from Philly as a part of its realignment/completion onto the PA Turnpike.
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Re: PA-NJ-DE Delaware River Crossings
« Reply #132 on: March 23, 2021, 01:49:56 PM »

Again, for the Betsy Ross Bridge signs, the use of Trenton at this location is still appropriate.  I equate this listing oddity to the recent change from Camden to Philadelphia for the southbound Garden State Parkway signs for Exit 129 (I-95/NJ Turnpike) but the southbound ramp sign beyond the toll plaza still lists Trenton... per the northbound Exit 129 signs.
Then you’ll have to take that up with PennDOT, since it says “New York” at the Betsy Ross Bridge now.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9928051,-75.0781829,3a,75y,329.35h,84.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbBb_E5CuL5Y8YKX_1QV02Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192


New York was made the primary control city for I-95 heading north from Philly as a part of its realignment/completion onto the PA Turnpike.

That's what the conversation has been about - why the DRPA changed it at the Betsy Ross, yet decided to use Trenton at the Walt Whitman Bridge.
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PHLBOS

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Re: PA-NJ-DE Delaware River Crossings
« Reply #133 on: March 23, 2021, 06:02:20 PM »

I've since corrected my earlier post.  I misinterpreted your earlier comment regarding the Betsy Ross Bridge signage.  My apologies & bad.

That's what the conversation has been about - why the DRPA changed it at the Betsy Ross, yet decided to use Trenton at the Walt Whitman Bridge.
I have to wonder in that particular case such was changed because of all the other surrounding signage were changed at the same time.  Whereas the replacement signs along the Walt Whitman Expressway portion of I-76 were/are a completely separate project/contract with little or no input from PennDOT.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 06:07:41 PM by PHLBOS »
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Re: PA-NJ-DE Delaware River Crossings
« Reply #134 on: March 23, 2021, 06:09:12 PM »

Again, for the Betsy Ross Bridge signs, the use of Trenton at this location is still appropriate.  I equate this listing oddity to the recent change from Camden to Philadelphia for the southbound Garden State Parkway signs for Exit 129 (I-95/NJ Turnpike) but the southbound ramp sign beyond the toll plaza still lists Trenton... per the northbound Exit 129 signs.
Then you’ll have to take that up with PennDOT, since it says “New York” at the Betsy Ross Bridge now.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9928051,-75.0781829,3a,75y,329.35h,84.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbBb_E5CuL5Y8YKX_1QV02Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192


New York was made the primary control city for I-95 heading north from Philly as a part of its realignment/completion onto the PA Turnpike.

That's what the conversation has been about - why the DRPA changed it at the Betsy Ross, yet decided to use Trenton at the Walt Whitman Bridge.

It's because the DRPA didn't change it. The new signs on the Betsy Ross Bridge were put up as part of PennDOT's 95revive project.
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Re: PA-NJ-DE Delaware River Crossings
« Reply #135 on: March 23, 2021, 06:20:11 PM »

Again, for the Betsy Ross Bridge signs, the use of Trenton at this location is still appropriate.  I equate this listing oddity to the recent change from Camden to Philadelphia for the southbound Garden State Parkway signs for Exit 129 (I-95/NJ Turnpike) but the southbound ramp sign beyond the toll plaza still lists Trenton... per the northbound Exit 129 signs.
Then you’ll have to take that up with PennDOT, since it says “New York” at the Betsy Ross Bridge now.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9928051,-75.0781829,3a,75y,329.35h,84.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbBb_E5CuL5Y8YKX_1QV02Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192


New York was made the primary control city for I-95 heading north from Philly as a part of its realignment/completion onto the PA Turnpike.

That's what the conversation has been about - why the DRPA changed it at the Betsy Ross, yet decided to use Trenton at the Walt Whitman Bridge.

It's because the DRPA didn't change it. The new signs on the Betsy Ross Bridge were put up as part of PennDOT's 95revive project.

That explains why those signs were Clearview, but the ones at the WWB were FHWA Gothic.
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famartin

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Re: PA-NJ-DE Delaware River Crossings
« Reply #136 on: March 23, 2021, 07:49:09 PM »

I've since corrected my earlier post.  I misinterpreted your earlier comment regarding the Betsy Ross Bridge signage.  My apologies & bad.

That's what the conversation has been about - why the DRPA changed it at the Betsy Ross, yet decided to use Trenton at the Walt Whitman Bridge.
I have to wonder in that particular case such was changed because of all the other surrounding signage were changed at the same time.  Whereas the replacement signs along the Walt Whitman Expressway portion of I-76 were/are a completely separate project/contract with little or no input from PennDOT.
Probably exactly the case.
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famartin

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Re: PA-NJ-DE Delaware River Crossings
« Reply #137 on: March 23, 2021, 07:50:54 PM »

Again, for the Betsy Ross Bridge signs, the use of Trenton at this location is still appropriate.  I equate this listing oddity to the recent change from Camden to Philadelphia for the southbound Garden State Parkway signs for Exit 129 (I-95/NJ Turnpike) but the southbound ramp sign beyond the toll plaza still lists Trenton... per the northbound Exit 129 signs.
Then you’ll have to take that up with PennDOT, since it says “New York” at the Betsy Ross Bridge now.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9928051,-75.0781829,3a,75y,329.35h,84.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbBb_E5CuL5Y8YKX_1QV02Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192


New York was made the primary control city for I-95 heading north from Philly as a part of its realignment/completion onto the PA Turnpike.

That's what the conversation has been about - why the DRPA changed it at the Betsy Ross, yet decided to use Trenton at the Walt Whitman Bridge.

It's because the DRPA didn't change it. The new signs on the Betsy Ross Bridge were put up as part of PennDOT's 95revive project.

Yeah, sorry if I didn't make it clear earlier, but after checking more closely it seemed more obvious that PennDOT controls the signs at the interchange between the BRB and 95, so changing those to "New York" was just PennDOT's doing.
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Re: PA-NJ-DE Delaware River Crossings
« Reply #138 on: March 24, 2021, 02:06:21 PM »

On a sad note, the classic button copy signs that hung over both ramps from the Walt to 95 have fallen victim to this replacement project.
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PHLBOS

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Re: PA-NJ-DE Delaware River Crossings
« Reply #139 on: March 24, 2021, 03:41:48 PM »

On a sad note, the classic button copy signs that hung over both ramps from the Walt to 95 have fallen victim to this replacement project.
Somebody took a pic of that new gantry & signs and posted it on Facebook about a week ago.  My only beef with those signs, aside from the smallish numerals, is the top line of the northbound ramp sign reading "NORTH 95" rather than "95 NORTH" per the old sign. Yes, I know such was to match older approach sign that's still there & I get that MUTCD featured that criteria for diagrammatic sign layouts & related panels for left-side movements; but such still seems off to me for conventional ramp split signage.

PennDOT actually corrected such when these newer signs were erected along I-95 southbound near the Betsy Ross Bridge.
Here's the predecessor signs for comparison; although I like the legend on the older sign on the right better than its replacement.
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Re: PA-NJ-DE Delaware River Crossings
« Reply #140 on: March 27, 2021, 12:49:45 AM »

On a sad note, the classic button copy signs that hung over both ramps from the Walt to 95 have fallen victim to this replacement project.
Somebody took a pic of that new gantry & signs and posted it on Facebook about a week ago.  My only beef with those signs, aside from the smallish numerals, is the top line of the northbound ramp sign reading "NORTH 95" rather than "95 NORTH" per the old sign. Yes, I know such was to match older approach sign that's still there & I get that MUTCD featured that criteria for diagrammatic sign layouts & related panels for left-side movements; but such still seems off to me for conventional ramp split signage.

PennDOT actually corrected such when these newer signs were erected along I-95 southbound near the Betsy Ross Bridge.
Here's the predecessor signs for comparison; although I like the legend on the older sign on the right better than its replacement.

Older Signs used to say “Pensauken, New Jersey.”
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Re: PA-NJ-DE Delaware River Crossings
« Reply #141 on: March 29, 2021, 12:15:45 PM »

Tolls set to increase on the eight DRJTBC tolled bridges this weekend, now with separate EZ Pass and non-EZ Pass rates...

https://www.mcall.com/business/transportation/mc-biz-joint-delaware-river-toll-bridges-hike-20210329-ys7tjptwb5cjhgjhygqutavyoi-story.html
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PHLBOS

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Re: PA-NJ-DE Delaware River Crossings
« Reply #142 on: March 29, 2021, 05:26:06 PM »

On a sad note, the classic button copy signs that hung over both ramps from the Walt to 95 have fallen victim to this replacement project.
Somebody took a pic of that new gantry & signs and posted it on Facebook about a week ago.  My only beef with those signs, aside from the smallish numerals, is the top line of the northbound ramp sign reading "NORTH 95" rather than "95 NORTH" per the old sign. Yes, I know such was to match older approach sign that's still there & I get that MUTCD featured that criteria for diagrammatic sign layouts & related panels for left-side movements; but such still seems off to me for conventional ramp split signage.

PennDOT actually corrected such when these newer signs were erected along I-95 southbound near the Betsy Ross Bridge.
Here's the predecessor signs for comparison; although I like the legend on the older sign on the right better than its replacement.

Older Signs used to say “Pensauken, New Jersey.”
Those were the original interchange signs that you speak of.  The approach signs simply read:
    Betsy Ross Bridge
Pennsauken, New Jersey


The signs at the actual ramps, at the splits between such & the then-stub ramps for the Tacony Expressway, simply read:
Betsy Ross Bridge
    Pennsauken


Tolls set to increase on the eight DRJTBC tolled bridges this weekend, now with separate EZ Pass and non-EZ Pass rates...

https://www.mcall.com/business/transportation/mc-biz-joint-delaware-river-toll-bridges-hike-20210329-ys7tjptwb5cjhgjhygqutavyoi-story.html
Directly from the DRJTBC
« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 05:29:08 PM by PHLBOS »
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Re: PA-NJ-DE Delaware River Crossings
« Reply #143 on: March 29, 2021, 09:05:54 PM »

That will create backups onto US 1 in Trenton, as the ramp to access the free bridge is quite short.
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Re: PA-NJ-DE Delaware River Crossings
« Reply #144 on: March 29, 2021, 09:27:37 PM »

That will create backups onto US 1 in Trenton, as the ramp to access the free bridge is quite short.
Few enough people use it as it is that I disagree.

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Re: PA-NJ-DE Delaware River Crossings
« Reply #145 on: March 29, 2021, 09:49:03 PM »

That will create backups onto US 1 in Trenton, as the ramp to access the free bridge is quite short.
Few enough people use it as it is that I disagree.
I pass by that ramp to Warren St. every night on my way home.  Even in this reduced traffic environment, significant traffic exits there to avoid the toll.  (Before then, it was not unusual to see backups onto the highway because of the short decel lane length and nearby Center St. overpass.)  I don't think the exiting volume will go that much higher, though.
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Re: PA-NJ-DE Delaware River Crossings
« Reply #146 on: March 30, 2021, 08:35:57 AM »

I wonder if this will spur more people onto the New Hope-Lambertsville bridge / PA/NJ 179 instead of taking US 202 into PA. Some days there's a pretty slow crawl due to the light at PA 32 in New Hope + pedestrian traffic.
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Re: PA-NJ-DE Delaware River Crossings
« Reply #147 on: March 30, 2021, 12:49:04 PM »

That will create backups onto US 1 in Trenton, as the ramp to access the free bridge is quite short.
Few enough people use it as it is that I disagree.
I pass by that ramp to Warren St. every night on my way home.  Even in this reduced traffic environment, significant traffic exits there to avoid the toll.  (Before then, it was not unusual to see backups onto the highway because of the short decel lane length and nearby Center St. overpass.)  I don't think the exiting volume will go that much higher, though.

There was a toll hike that resulted in a massive exodus off of US 1 at Market Street; so much so that I think they even rolled back the toll hike a bit.  Originally I thought this was in 2011, but the hike was only 75 cents to $1.00, so now I'm thinking this may have actually happened in 2003 when the toll was hiked from 50 cents to 75 cents.  I think the toll hike may have even originally been 50 cents to $1.00, then rolled back to 75 cents.  My memory is a bit hazy from 18 years ago, and the internet is very hazy from that time period, but I do remember quite an issue resulting from the toll hike and heavy delays due to a heavy dose of shunpiking with the easily accessible free bridge nearby.

Looking at their 2019 Financials ( http://www.drjtbc.org/wp-content/uploads/2019-DRJTBC-AUDIT.pdf , Pages 71 & 73)(2020 isn't published yet), only about 69% of their car transactions at the US 1 toll plaza were EZ Pass.  Frankly, that seems a bit low for the general area.  There was 2,706,454 $1 car transactions, or about 7,660 vehicles per day, that paid with cash.  If just a small fraction of that amount decides to escape US 1 via Market Street in Trenton, that can cause quite a delay at that interchange.

Obviously, the DRJTBC is hoping people are just going to get EZ Pass and stay on their tolled bridges, rather than sit in congestion finding another way to avoid the $3 cash toll.  Hopefully they have a good idea how many they project are willing to finally make that switch.
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