Angry rant about NCDOT and their road projects (Language adjusted)

[kphoger]

[Mapmikey]

https://connect.ncdot.gov/projects/planning/FeasibilityStudiesDocuments/Feasibility-Study_0707B_Report-2012.pdf

How are they going to build an interchange on I-40 with an apartment complex in the way?

So...you're taking a 2012 document and applying it wholesale to 2020.  Those apartments didn't exist until about 2015 per historicaerials.com.  Also this was clearly shown in the study on the conceptual design imposed over satellite view on pg. 134. 

Instead of building a time machine and doing the project before the apartments were built, they altered the interchange design.

Take this web address and bookmark it - https://www.ncdot.gov/initiatives-policies/Transportation/stip/Pages/stip-projects-map.aspx - so that you can check whether a past feasibility studty is turned into a STIP item.  Then take the project number and search the ncdot site and you'll get good information like this: https://www.ncdot.gov/news/public-meetings/Pages/I-5980-2018-11-15.aspx

There are 2 alternatives and neither involves the apartments' footprint.  And the interchange is for its own sake and not part of anything from the feasibility study...

[tolbs17]

https://connect.ncdot.gov/projects/planning/FeasibilityStudiesDocuments/Feasibility-Study_0707B_Report-2012.pdf

How are they going to build an interchange on I-40 with an apartment complex in the way?

So...you're taking a 2012 document and applying it wholesale to 2020.  Those apartments didn't exist until about 2015 per historicaerials.com.  Also this was clearly shown in the study on the conceptual design imposed over satellite view on pg. 134. 

Instead of building a time machine and doing the project before the apartments were built, they altered the interchange design.

Take this web address and bookmark it - https://www.ncdot.gov/initiatives-policies/Transportation/stip/Pages/stip-projects-map.aspx - so that you can check whether a past feasibility studty is turned into a STIP item.  Then take the project number and search the ncdot site and you'll get good information like this: https://www.ncdot.gov/news/public-meetings/Pages/I-5980-2018-11-15.aspx

There are 2 alternatives and neither involves the apartments' footprint.  And the interchange is for its own sake and not part of anything from the feasibility study...

They can just connect I-40 to I-73. Simple!

[Dirt Roads]

They can just connect I-40 to I-73. Simple!

I think that you missed the point that I-73 is already complete and signed in that area.  After completion of the southwest portion of the Greensboro bypass, both I-40 and I-73 ran concurrent, but I-40 was moved back onto the Death Valley expressway after the freeway was widened west of there.

[tolbs17]

And when will they do that?  I-26 has been sitting for so long that IMO the portion going into TN shouldn't have been designated at all - at least not until this was done.

Maybe NC and other states would be less gung ho about getting new interstate corridors if they actually had to follow through before they could start benefiting.  It annoys me how so many interstates are in disarray because of segments that won't be built for a long time, if ever.  IMO an interstate shouldn't be allowed to be signed if the addition to the system only makes sense if some other project gets built some day.  Requiring that the system be coherent 100% of the time, with no allowances for planned projects, would protect against things like this.

NCDOT has not ignored the need to rebuild the I-26/I-240 connections in Asheville; it has been working on this problem for many years. The problem has been that Asheville is NIMBY heaven and NCDOT has had to fight over and over again to make any progress. However, a plan is now in place and work could begin as soon as 2021 unless there's yet another hangup.
https://www.ncdot.gov/projects/asheville-i-26-connector/Pages/default.aspx

...and the website says it still HAS NOT begun yet.

[tolbs17]

Should have been built as a four-level stack but they chose to keep the same design, just an upgraded one.

[wdcrft63]

And when will they do that?  I-26 has been sitting for so long that IMO the portion going into TN shouldn't have been designated at all - at least not until this was done.

Maybe NC and other states would be less gung ho about getting new interstate corridors if they actually had to follow through before they could start benefiting.  It annoys me how so many interstates are in disarray because of segments that won't be built for a long time, if ever.  IMO an interstate shouldn't be allowed to be signed if the addition to the system only makes sense if some other project gets built some day.  Requiring that the system be coherent 100% of the time, with no allowances for planned projects, would protect against things like this.

NCDOT has not ignored the need to rebuild the I-26/I-240 connections in Asheville; it has been working on this problem for many years. The problem has been that Asheville is NIMBY heaven and NCDOT has had to fight over and over again to make any progress. However, a plan is now in place and work could begin as soon as 2021 unless there's yet another hangup.
https://www.ncdot.gov/projects/asheville-i-26-connector/Pages/default.aspx

...and the website says it still HAS NOT begun yet.

This project is a prototypical NIMBY horror show. Determined and well funded opposition has delayed the project many years and multiplied its cost so many times that funding shortfalls have delayed it even more. Only the glaringly obvious need for the project has kept NCDOT plugging away, revising and revising, to get to a point where construction appears possible.

[tolbs17]

And when will they do that?  I-26 has been sitting for so long that IMO the portion going into TN shouldn't have been designated at all - at least not until this was done.

Maybe NC and other states would be less gung ho about getting new interstate corridors if they actually had to follow through before they could start benefiting.  It annoys me how so many interstates are in disarray because of segments that won't be built for a long time, if ever.  IMO an interstate shouldn't be allowed to be signed if the addition to the system only makes sense if some other project gets built some day.  Requiring that the system be coherent 100% of the time, with no allowances for planned projects, would protect against things like this.

NCDOT has not ignored the need to rebuild the I-26/I-240 connections in Asheville; it has been working on this problem for many years. The problem has been that Asheville is NIMBY heaven and NCDOT has had to fight over and over again to make any progress. However, a plan is now in place and work could begin as soon as 2021 unless there's yet another hangup.
https://www.ncdot.gov/projects/asheville-i-26-connector/Pages/default.aspx

...and the website says it still HAS NOT begun yet.

This project is a prototypical NIMBY horror show. Determined and well funded opposition has delayed the project many years and multiplied its cost so many times that funding shortfalls have delayed it even more. Only the glaringly obvious need for the project has kept NCDOT plugging away, revising and revising, to get to a point where construction appears possible.

I like D1 the best when looking atthis, but i'm guessing they kept the same design for minimal ROW.

[tolbs17]

So I see Greenville Blvd get backed up every day with cars sitting on the road (yes when ECU is in session) and Arlington Blvd/Dickinson Ave clogged, which means that intersection warrants an interchange? They have a survey, which I'm sure improvements are desperately needed.

The City of Greenville DOES have plans to widen Arlington Blvd to six lanes, I just don't know when they are going to do it.

[jeffandnicole]

So I see Greenville Blvd get backed up every day with cars sitting on the road (yes when ECU is in session) and Arlington Blvd/Dickinson Ave clogged, which means that intersection warrants an interchange? They have a survey, which I'm sure improvements are desperately needed.

The City of Greenville DOES have plans to widen Arlington Blvd to six lanes, I just don't know when they are going to do it.

If clogged traffic warrants an interchange, we'd see housing developments with interchanges onto county roads.

[tolbs17]

So I see Greenville Blvd get backed up every day with cars sitting on the road (yes when ECU is in session) and Arlington Blvd/Dickinson Ave clogged, which means that intersection warrants an interchange? They have a survey, which I'm sure improvements are desperately needed.

The City of Greenville DOES have plans to widen Arlington Blvd to six lanes, I just don't know when they are going to do it.

If clogged traffic warrants an interchange, we'd see housing developments with interchanges onto county roads.

Like where at?

[tolbs17]

I found the links of the northern end of the New Bern Bypass here: They are from 1998 though. What are you guys's opinions on this?

https://web.archive.org/web/20150130041524/http://www.ncdot.gov/download/projects/publichearings/R2301a_1_comp.pdf

https://web.archive.org/web/20170131133032/https://www.ncdot.gov/download/projects/publichearings/R2301a_2_comp.pdf

https://web.archive.org/web/20170215105704/https://www.ncdot.gov/download/projects/publichearings/R2301a_3_comp.pdf This is where the northern end starts

https://web.archive.org/web/20170202122821/https://www.ncdot.gov/download/projects/publichearings/R2301a_4_comp.pdf

https://web.archive.org/web/20170203060722/https://www.ncdot.gov/download/projects/publichearings/R2301a_5_comp.pdf

[tolbs17]

Is the I-73 airport connector still in the plans??? These were planned 11 months ago and it still shows that the airport connector is in the studies. And when looking at it, I feel like it's gonna tie to the Winston-Salem Northern Beltway.

Map 1

Map 2

Source = https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/56c3aabd2bec4d5783b6483b06493d8e

[tolbs17]

No tolls and there's no way they can upgrade NC 43 to a freeway on the existing alignment due to some development unless you want to displace all those businesses. And I don't see a toll highway going there, that's literally in the middle of nowhere and probably won't generate that much traffic, really.

Same for the Carolina bays parkway. Tolling it would be pointless as the bypass is the main reason of upgrading the existing highway.

If a project has a higher score does that mean it will come to the next STIP (one was skipped due to Covid)? I-95 widening in Johnston County is the most needed one and the part form I-74 to the SC state line is almost $400 million to add a third lane. DAMN that's a lot! If it's going to cost that much it's most likely a complete rebuild as opposed to widening existing bridges which will definitely drive down the cost.

https://ncdot.maps.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?layers=8623ff32a0a249c79a106dfb12dc83b2

[wdcrft63]

No tolls and there's no way they can upgrade NC 43 to a freeway on the existing alignment due to some development unless you want to displace all those businesses. And I don't see a toll highway going there, that's literally in the middle of nowhere and probably won't generate that much traffic, really.

Same for the Carolina bays parkway. Tolling it would be pointless as the bypass is the main reason of upgrading the existing highway.

If a project has a higher score does that mean it will come to the next STIP (one was skipped due to Covid)? I-95 widening in Johnston County is the most needed one and the part form I-74 to the SC state line is almost $400 million to add a third lane. DAMN that's a lot! If it's going to cost that much it's most likely a complete rebuild as opposed to widening existing bridges which will definitely drive down the cost.

https://ncdot.maps.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?layers=8623ff32a0a249c79a106dfb12dc83b2

Some links are needed here. Who thinks NC 43 should be a freeway? Or that the CBP should be a toll road?

[Max Rockatansky]

Why does this angry rant not include a soap box?

[kphoger]

[Max Rockatansky]

^^^

I feel like the above would heavily accentuate any angry rant.

[tolbs17]

No tolls and there's no way they can upgrade NC 43 to a freeway on the existing alignment due to some development unless you want to displace all those businesses. And I don't see a toll highway going there, that's literally in the middle of nowhere and probably won't generate that much traffic, really.

Same for the Carolina bays parkway. Tolling it would be pointless as the bypass is the main reason of upgrading the existing highway.

If a project has a higher score does that mean it will come to the next STIP (one was skipped due to Covid)? I-95 widening in Johnston County is the most needed one and the part form I-74 to the SC state line is almost $400 million to add a third lane. DAMN that's a lot! If it's going to cost that much it's most likely a complete rebuild as opposed to widening existing bridges which will definitely drive down the cost.

https://ncdot.maps.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?layers=8623ff32a0a249c79a106dfb12dc83b2

Some links are needed here. Who thinks NC 43 should be a freeway? Or that the CBP should be a toll road?

Included in that map I sent. Click on a purple like and it will tell you

[Mapmikey]

Only the southern half of NC 43 project is being considered for tolls.

The CBP has 2 lines, one toll and one not.  Their scores are slightly different.  The new Cape Fear Crossing below Wilmington also has two entries like this.

upgrading US 74 between I-26 and Shelby Bypass to interstate standard is a submittal on here as are most of the usual suspects for interstate upgrade in NC.

You would have to delve deeper into how NCDOT uses these scoring values to develop their STIP list.  Each state does it differently.  There could be weighting factors applied and it's a strict mathematical exercise.  Or they could be using the scores to develop a shorter list from which to choose. 

The bad news is that per their page on the 2024-33 STIP, there is almost no money available for projects not already on the current STIP.
https://www.ncdot.gov/initiatives-policies/Transportation/stip/development/Pages/default.aspx

Maybe that changes with the Omnibus bill signed into law this week which enables the big transportation package to actually spend its money.

[dlsterner]

No tolls and there's no way they can upgrade NC 43 to a freeway on the existing alignment due to some development unless you want to displace all those businesses. And I don't see a toll highway going there, that's literally in the middle of nowhere and probably won't generate that much traffic, really.

Same for the Carolina bays parkway. Tolling it would be pointless as the bypass is the main reason of upgrading the existing highway.

If a project has a higher score does that mean it will come to the next STIP (one was skipped due to Covid)? I-95 widening in Johnston County is the most needed one and the part form I-74 to the SC state line is almost $400 million to add a third lane. DAMN that's a lot! If it's going to cost that much it's most likely a complete rebuild as opposed to widening existing bridges which will definitely drive down the cost.

https://ncdot.maps.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?layers=8623ff32a0a249c79a106dfb12dc83b2

Some links are needed here. Who thinks NC 43 should be a freeway? Or that the CBP should be a toll road?

Included in that map I sent. Click on a purple like and it will tell you

There are literally dozens if not hundreds of purple links on that map.  Are we supposed to click them all until we find the relevant one?

[tolbs17]

Maybe that changes with the Omnibus bill signed into law this week which enables the big transportation package to actually spend its money.

I didn't actually know its being signed this week? This is exciting!

[tolbs17]

No tolls and there's no way they can upgrade NC 43 to a freeway on the existing alignment due to some development unless you want to displace all those businesses. And I don't see a toll highway going there, that's literally in the middle of nowhere and probably won't generate that much traffic, really.

Same for the Carolina bays parkway. Tolling it would be pointless as the bypass is the main reason of upgrading the existing highway.

If a project has a higher score does that mean it will come to the next STIP (one was skipped due to Covid)? I-95 widening in Johnston County is the most needed one and the part form I-74 to the SC state line is almost $400 million to add a third lane. DAMN that's a lot! If it's going to cost that much it's most likely a complete rebuild as opposed to widening existing bridges which will definitely drive down the cost.

https://ncdot.maps.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?layers=8623ff32a0a249c79a106dfb12dc83b2

Some links are needed here. Who thinks NC 43 should be a freeway? Or that the CBP should be a toll road?

Included in that map I sent. Click on a purple like and it will tell you

There are literally dozens if not hundreds of purple links on that map.  Are we supposed to click them all until we find the relevant one?

Purple line. The CTP is just northwest of US-17 and the northern end of the US-17 bypass is just north of US-70.

[wdcrft63]

No tolls and there's no way they can upgrade NC 43 to a freeway on the existing alignment due to some development unless you want to displace all those businesses. And I don't see a toll highway going there, that's literally in the middle of nowhere and probably won't generate that much traffic, really.

Same for the Carolina bays parkway. Tolling it would be pointless as the bypass is the main reason of upgrading the existing highway.

If a project has a higher score does that mean it will come to the next STIP (one was skipped due to Covid)? I-95 widening in Johnston County is the most needed one and the part form I-74 to the SC state line is almost $400 million to add a third lane. DAMN that's a lot! If it's going to cost that much it's most likely a complete rebuild as opposed to widening existing bridges which will definitely drive down the cost.

https://ncdot.maps.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?layers=8623ff32a0a249c79a106dfb12dc83b2

Some links are needed here. Who thinks NC 43 should be a freeway? Or that the CBP should be a toll road?

Included in that map I sent. Click on a purple like and it will tell you

There are literally dozens if not hundreds of purple links on that map.  Are we supposed to click them all until we find the relevant one?

Purple line. The CTP is just northwest of US-17 and the northern end of the US-17 bypass is just north of US-70.

Neither project is suitable for tolls and the turnpike authority is not considering either of them. No need for a rant, it's not going to happen.

The US 17 bypass would cross the Neuse at the location of the existing NC 43 bridge because any other crossing of the wetlands would generate lots of opposition (as it should, I think). This document is far from the last word on whether the freeway would upgrade all of the current NC 43 route thereafter or deviate from it; I don't think that's decided.

[tolbs17]

No tolls and there's no way they can upgrade NC 43 to a freeway on the existing alignment due to some development unless you want to displace all those businesses. And I don't see a toll highway going there, that's literally in the middle of nowhere and probably won't generate that much traffic, really.

Same for the Carolina bays parkway. Tolling it would be pointless as the bypass is the main reason of upgrading the existing highway.

If a project has a higher score does that mean it will come to the next STIP (one was skipped due to Covid)? I-95 widening in Johnston County is the most needed one and the part form I-74 to the SC state line is almost $400 million to add a third lane. DAMN that's a lot! If it's going to cost that much it's most likely a complete rebuild as opposed to widening existing bridges which will definitely drive down the cost.

https://ncdot.maps.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?layers=8623ff32a0a249c79a106dfb12dc83b2

Some links are needed here. Who thinks NC 43 should be a freeway? Or that the CBP should be a toll road?

Included in that map I sent. Click on a purple like and it will tell you

There are literally dozens if not hundreds of purple links on that map.  Are we supposed to click them all until we find the relevant one?

Purple line. The CTP is just northwest of US-17 and the northern end of the US-17 bypass is just north of US-70.

Neither project is suitable for tolls and the turnpike authority is not considering either of them. No need for a rant, it's not going to happen.

The US 17 bypass would cross the Neuse at the location of the existing NC 43 bridge because any other crossing of the wetlands would generate lots of opposition (as it should, I think). This document is far from the last word on whether the freeway would upgrade all of the current NC 43 route thereafter or deviate from it; I don't think that's decided.

Hope it doesn't fall like the Ahoskie bypass did. Yes, it does impact wetlands but look at the MLK parkway in Wilmington