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More Deserving?

Baton Rouge
- 13 (20.6%)
Memphis
- 45 (71.4%)
Neither
- 5 (7.9%)

Total Members Voted: 63


Author Topic: Who Is More Deserving Of A New Mississippi River Bridge?  (Read 7634 times)

CoreySamson

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Who Is More Deserving Of A New Mississippi River Bridge?
« on: January 03, 2021, 12:54:08 AM »

The case for Memphis:
-Possible earthquakes mean a newer bridge is safer
-The 270 degree cloverleaf at Crump and I-55 is a problem

The case for Baton Rouge:
-Both bridges are old
-Traffic is a nightmare on the I-10 bridge

I say Baton Rouge, but interested to see what others think.

kenarmy

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Re: Who Is More Deserving Of A New Mississippi River Bridge?
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2021, 01:15:39 AM »

 I'd say Memphis because it's more narrow and it's not interstate standard. And the 270 turn is dangerous.
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Anthony_JK

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Re: Who Is More Deserving Of A New Mississippi River Bridge?
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2021, 12:37:49 PM »

Baton Rouge is planning on getting a new bridge as a bypass, near Addis.  Unfortunately, it won't be a freeway bridge, but an arterial crossing.

It is possible that if funding is found for the Baton Rouge Toll Bypass, a new bridge will be built to replace the Airline Highway/US 190 bridge, as that road will probably be converted to full Interstate standards. I still hope they can use the old bridge for pedestrians and bikes, though.

Memphis, though, needs the bridge much more than BTR does. Current I-55 through Crump Boulevard is a nightmare, and a southern crossing tying into I-69 would really help in relief.
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Revive 755

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Re: Who Is More Deserving Of A New Mississippi River Bridge?
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2021, 12:43:03 PM »

While both are deserving of a new bridge or at least replacement of an existing bridge, I voted for Memphis.  Baton Rouge appears to have the LA 10 bridge available  as a distant alternate, while it looks like Memphis has a much longer trip to get to either the US 49 or I-155 bridges.
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Bobby5280

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Re: Who Is More Deserving Of A New Mississippi River Bridge?
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2021, 01:52:29 PM »

Plans are in the works to fix the Crump Blvd interchange. But the old I-55 bridge over the Mississippi River is a major problem with no replacement in sight.

The Hernando de Soto bridge (I-40) in Memphis and the Horace Wilkinson bridge (I-10) in Baton Rouge both have somewhat similar designs. The road decks are 3 lanes each way, but with no shoulders.

Only a couple or so Mississippi River bridges South of St Louis have sufficiently wide road decks with shoulders. Most are aging. I think Memphis has the more precarious situation since I-40 has no alternative bridges of good, modern quality nearby. The I-55 bridge is considerably worse. The next nearest crossing is in Helena and that skinny old bridge isn't any better. You have to go clear up to the I-155 bridge near Dyersburg for something truly acceptable.

Baton Rouge doesn't have many alternative bridge crossings. The Huey P. Long-O.K. Allen bridge (US-190) in Baton Rouge is really old. But the John James Audubon Bridge (LA-10) is fairly new and just a little ways farther up river.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2021, 02:56:29 PM by Bobby5280 »
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Life in Paradise

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Re: Who Is More Deserving Of A New Mississippi River Bridge?
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2021, 02:28:37 PM »

You also have the crossing from KY to IL to MO at Cairo, IL that is planning to be replaced, and what appears to be pipe dream of the Great River Crossing maybe 20 miles north of Greenville, MS.
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capt.ron

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Re: Who Is More Deserving Of A New Mississippi River Bridge?
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2021, 02:31:28 PM »

I'd say Memphis because it's more narrow and it's not interstate standard. And the 270 turn is dangerous.
I'm surprised to this day that it ever got Interstate status to begin with! That bridge was made originally for a 4 lane divided highway a good while before the Interstate system came to be. It is downright claustrophobic to be on and then once you cross it heading into Memphis, you're greeted with a sharp left curve, RIRO slip lanes, and a super tight cloverleaf that has been obsolete since the early 1970's.  And of course, going the other way, you have to navigate the super tight 270 degree ramp.
The sooner they modernize that interchange, the better.
And getting onto the subject of additional bridges...I'd say build two but first build the southern bridge which lines up with I-269 / 69 and build an extension of I-69 to connect from its self exit from MS 304 westward and then hook up towards I-40 in AR. The bridge would be built as 8 lanes since I anticipate the traffic to grow quite a bit. That may require a widening of existing I-69 and I-269 from the proposed bridge over to US 78.
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I-39

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Re: Who Is More Deserving Of A New Mississippi River Bridge?
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2021, 03:03:52 PM »

Both badly need to be replaced. In fact, any bridge that is not wide enough for full shoulders on both sides is too old and needs to be replaced. We have way too many interstate bridges in this country that are not up to modern standards.
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I-39

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Re: Who Is More Deserving Of A New Mississippi River Bridge?
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2021, 03:06:32 PM »

I'd say Memphis because it's more narrow and it's not interstate standard. And the 270 turn is dangerous.
I'm surprised to this day that it ever got Interstate status to begin with! That bridge was made originally for a 4 lane divided highway a good while before the Interstate system came to be. It is downright claustrophobic to be on and then once you cross it heading into Memphis, you're greeted with a sharp left curve, RIRO slip lanes, and a super tight cloverleaf that has been obsolete since the early 1970's.  And of course, going the other way, you have to navigate the super tight 270 degree ramp.
The sooner they modernize that interchange, the better.
And getting onto the subject of additional bridges...I'd say build two but first build the southern bridge which lines up with I-269 / 69 and build an extension of I-69 to connect from its self exit from MS 304 westward and then hook up towards I-40 in AR. The bridge would be built as 8 lanes since I anticipate the traffic to grow quite a bit. That may require a widening of existing I-69 and I-269 from the proposed bridge over to US 78.

What would be the feasibility of decommissioning that stretch of I-55 and rerouting it onto the I-40/69 combo, then building a massive new bridge to replace the Hernando de Soto bridge to accommodate the increased traffic?
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Bobby5280

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Re: Who Is More Deserving Of A New Mississippi River Bridge?
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2021, 03:12:15 PM »

I don't think routing I-55 onto I-40 is a good idea. Existing I-40 and I-240 near downtown Memphis is only 3 lanes in each direction. Doing any expansion in that area would be difficult and controversial. The existing I-55 bridge simply needs to be replaced by a new bridge in the same location. The project to overhaul the Crump Blvd interchange will set the stage for a bridge replacement.
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I-39

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Re: Who Is More Deserving Of A New Mississippi River Bridge?
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2021, 06:43:59 PM »

I don't think routing I-55 onto I-40 is a good idea. Existing I-40 and I-240 near downtown Memphis is only 3 lanes in each direction. Doing any expansion in that area would be difficult and controversial. The existing I-55 bridge simply needs to be replaced by a new bridge in the same location. The project to overhaul the Crump Blvd interchange will set the stage for a bridge replacement.

Has the Crump Blvd redo been delayed?
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bwana39

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Re: Who Is More Deserving Of A New Mississippi River Bridge?
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2021, 10:34:09 PM »

Yes, the Crump Boulevard Interchange upgrade has been delayed indefinitely.

Baton Rouge needs a new bridge more.

No, the bridges proposed for Baton Rouge are not to be on arterials. The proposed loop would be:  2.5.1. Design Standards
In order to provide the highest level of service, the Baton Rouge Loop would be
designed as a controlled access free-flow facility. It would meet the freeway
guidelines set forth by the American Association of State Highway and
Transportation Officials (AASHTO) with consideration given to design standards
established by the LADOTD. These criteria provide a summary of methodology and
standards used in the preliminary construction cost estimates. As design
progresses, adjustments approved by FHWA and LADOTD can be made to meet
LADOTD and AASHTO design standard preferences / guidelines.
The design standards proposed for the Project are shown in Table 2.2 and are
primarily based on AASHTO’s 2011 publications, A Policy on Geometric Design of
Highways and Streets, and Roadside Design Guide with consideration given to
LADOTD Design Standards for Freeways (2009). The table includes criteria for
urban and rural sections, as both will be utilized along the route
  per: http://wwwsp.dotd.la.gov/Inside_LaDOTD/Divisions/Engineering/Environmental/Documents/H.005201%20(H.008732)%20Baton%20Rouge%20Loop/01_Baton%20Rouge%20Loop%20Tier%201%20FEIS%20Volume%201.pdf

I really don't think any bridge(s) along the Arkansas /Mississippi / Tennessee portion of the river are dependent on what happens in greater Baton Rouge.  IN spite of national priorities, Louisiana will build one or both bridges within the next fifteen years or less.

A new Memphis area bridge depends more on if the Great River Bridge is built than anything in Louisiana.
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I-39

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Re: Who Is More Deserving Of A New Mississippi River Bridge?
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2021, 10:37:55 AM »

Yes, the Crump Boulevard Interchange upgrade has been delayed indefinitely.

This is a problem, but maybe they should lump this project in with a new bridge.
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bwana39

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Re: Who Is More Deserving Of A New Mississippi River Bridge?
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2021, 12:46:17 PM »

Yes, the Crump Boulevard Interchange upgrade has been delayed indefinitely.

This is a problem, but maybe they should lump this project in with a new bridge.

While there is lots of talk about Earthquake resilience, in spite of the faults in mid-America, it is not viewed as LIKELY to happen like an earthquake in California, Japan, or even Alaska.  Capacity is the real issue for the Memphis and Arkansas Bridge. While I think it is ill suited for interstate highway traffic, it is still a viable bridge for the foreseeable future.  I-55 should probably be routed farther south ( a Tunica Resorts area crossing as I have discussed ad nauseum would fit that.) It probably would still befitting the route to give the existing bridge and the part of I-55 that is bypassed a 3DI number.  The Crump Avenue Interchange would STILL need to be reworked but perhaps less so.  It still would need to be revamped if it were the made to be the intersection of US-79 and US-61.
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Anthony_JK

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Re: Who Is More Deserving Of A New Mississippi River Bridge?
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2021, 02:54:27 PM »

Yes, the Crump Boulevard Interchange upgrade has been delayed indefinitely.

Baton Rouge needs a new bridge more.

No, the bridges proposed for Baton Rouge are not to be on arterials. The proposed loop would be:  2.5.1. Design Standards
In order to provide the highest level of service, the Baton Rouge Loop would be
designed as a controlled access free-flow facility. It would meet the freeway
guidelines set forth by the American Association of State Highway and
Transportation Officials (AASHTO) with consideration given to design standards
established by the LADOTD. These criteria provide a summary of methodology and
standards used in the preliminary construction cost estimates. As design
progresses, adjustments approved by FHWA and LADOTD can be made to meet
LADOTD and AASHTO design standard preferences / guidelines.
The design standards proposed for the Project are shown in Table 2.2 and are
primarily based on AASHTO’s 2011 publications, A Policy on Geometric Design of
Highways and Streets, and Roadside Design Guide with consideration given to
LADOTD Design Standards for Freeways (2009). The table includes criteria for
urban and rural sections, as both will be utilized along the route
  per: http://wwwsp.dotd.la.gov/Inside_LaDOTD/Divisions/Engineering/Environmental/Documents/H.005201%20(H.008732)%20Baton%20Rouge%20Loop/01_Baton%20Rouge%20Loop%20Tier%201%20FEIS%20Volume%201.pdf

I really don't think any bridge(s) along the Arkansas /Mississippi / Tennessee portion of the river are dependent on what happens in greater Baton Rouge.  IN spite of national priorities, Louisiana will build one or both bridges within the next fifteen years or less.

A new Memphis area bridge depends more on if the Great River Bridge is built than anything in Louisiana.

The proposed Baton Rouge Toll Loop bridges would indeed be Interstate freeway grade.

The currently proposed south crossing of the Mississippi River near Addis, however, would be a 4-lane arterial connecting surface roads, not a freeway. Though, it's possible that they build it with future upgradeablity.
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bwana39

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Re: Who Is More Deserving Of A New Mississippi River Bridge?
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2021, 04:42:59 PM »

Quote

The proposed Baton Rouge Toll Loop bridges would indeed be Interstate freeway grade.

The currently proposed south crossing of the Mississippi River near Addis, however, would be a 4-lane arterial connecting surface roads, not a freeway. Though, it's possible that they build it with future upgradeablity.

The whole project becomes less and less.  Yes the bridge will at least initially be connected to LA-30 on the east bank. It will probably be connected to LA-1 on the west side. There is lots of debate as to where the bridge  is going to be (still 5 differing corridors) with 5 or more groups of patrons (for each).  Proposed is the point. I think it is still proposed to be a six or eight lane bridge CONNECTING to 4-lane arterial. LA-30 on the east bank is two lanes with ROW for 4-lanes. Part of the problem is the folks in Baton Rouge do not want the huge traffic volume dropped onto their neighborhoods.  LA-1 might handle the traffic. I am not sure that even if you widen LA-30 to 4-lane arterial that it can handle the traffic. If you connect the bridge directly to I-10 via freeway connector, then LA-1 will get more swamped than it already is.  Building this bridge without freeway connections to I-10 on both sides of the river is just a new traffic jam waiting to happen. Either that or is is like the Gramercy bridge and has virtually no traffic except for some VERY local traffic because there is no real route of egress.
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hbelkins

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Re: Who Is More Deserving Of A New Mississippi River Bridge?
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2021, 05:59:59 PM »

You also have the crossing from KY to IL to MO at Cairo, IL that is planning to be replaced, and what appears to be pipe dream of the Great River Crossing maybe 20 miles north of Greenville, MS.

You may see a new Ohio River crossing for US 51/60/62 between Kentucky and Illinois, but it's doubtful that there will ever be a direct Kentucky/Missouri crossing of the Mississippi. I also doubt the US 60/62 bridge between Illinois and Missouri will be replaced, since you can see the I-57 bridge from it.
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Anthony_JK

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Re: Who Is More Deserving Of A New Mississippi River Bridge?
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2021, 09:32:38 AM »

Quote

The proposed Baton Rouge Toll Loop bridges would indeed be Interstate freeway grade.

The currently proposed south crossing of the Mississippi River near Addis, however, would be a 4-lane arterial connecting surface roads, not a freeway. Though, it's possible that they build it with future upgradeablity.

The whole project becomes less and less.  Yes the bridge will at least initially be connected to LA-30 on the east bank. It will probably be connected to LA-1 on the west side. There is lots of debate as to where the bridge  is going to be (still 5 differing corridors) with 5 or more groups of patrons (for each).  Proposed is the point. I think it is still proposed to be a six or eight lane bridge CONNECTING to 4-lane arterial. LA-30 on the east bank is two lanes with ROW for 4-lanes. Part of the problem is the folks in Baton Rouge do not want the huge traffic volume dropped onto their neighborhoods.  LA-1 might handle the traffic. I am not sure that even if you widen LA-30 to 4-lane arterial that it can handle the traffic. If you connect the bridge directly to I-10 via freeway connector, then LA-1 will get more swamped than it already is.  Building this bridge without freeway connections to I-10 on both sides of the river is just a new traffic jam waiting to happen. Either that or is is like the Gramercy bridge and has virtually no traffic except for some VERY local traffic because there is no real route of egress.

From what I know, and I can be wrong as usual, the plan is to connect the south Mississippi River bridge to the proposed extension of LA 415 from its current interchange with I-10 near Lobdell west of Port Allen. That would produce at least a divided 4-lane bypass route from I-10 west of Baton Rouge to near Gardere, where apparently LA 30 would take it the rest of the way to I-10 near Gonzales.

Not nearly ideal, since I'd prefer a full freeway bypass, but nothing says that this couldn't be upgraded in the future or incorporated into the larger BTR Loop bypass.
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bwana39

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Re: Who Is More Deserving Of A New Mississippi River Bridge?
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2021, 06:28:17 PM »

Quote

The proposed Baton Rouge Toll Loop bridges would indeed be Interstate freeway grade.

The currently proposed south crossing of the Mississippi River near Addis, however, would be a 4-lane arterial connecting surface roads, not a freeway. Though, it's possible that they build it with future upgradeablity.

The whole project becomes less and less.  Yes the bridge will at least initially be connected to LA-30 on the east bank. It will probably be connected to LA-1 on the west side. There is lots of debate as to where the bridge  is going to be (still 5 differing corridors) with 5 or more groups of patrons (for each).  Proposed is the point. I think it is still proposed to be a six or eight lane bridge CONNECTING to 4-lane arterial. LA-30 on the east bank is two lanes with ROW for 4-lanes. Part of the problem is the folks in Baton Rouge do not want the huge traffic volume dropped onto their neighborhoods.  LA-1 might handle the traffic. I am not sure that even if you widen LA-30 to 4-lane arterial that it can handle the traffic. If you connect the bridge directly to I-10 via freeway connector, then LA-1 will get more swamped than it already is.  Building this bridge without freeway connections to I-10 on both sides of the river is just a new traffic jam waiting to happen. Either that or is is like the Gramercy bridge and has virtually no traffic except for some VERY local traffic because there is no real route of egress.

From what I know, and I can be wrong as usual, the plan is to connect the south Mississippi River bridge to the proposed extension of LA 415 from its current interchange with I-10 near Lobdell west of Port Allen. That would produce at least a divided 4-lane bypass route from I-10 west of Baton Rouge to near Gardere, where apparently LA 30 would take it the rest of the way to I-10 near Gonzales.

Not nearly ideal, since I'd prefer a full freeway bypass, but nothing says that this couldn't be upgraded in the future or incorporated into the larger BTR Loop bypass.

https://www.wafb.com/2019/03/28/dotd-eyeing-locations-possible-new-bridge-baton-rouge-area/    Sums it up.  The LA-415 / LA-1 connector project will only complicate it. It will enable far more traffic onto HWY 1. Without the infrastructure on both sides of the river, a new bridge is not a lot of help.  They will figure out how to build it.   There is still lots more questions not fewer.
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Re: Who Is More Deserving Of A New Mississippi River Bridge?
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2021, 06:54:51 PM »

I'd say Memphis because it's more narrow and it's not interstate standard. And the 270 turn is dangerous.
I'm surprised to this day that it ever got Interstate status to begin with! That bridge was made originally for a 4 lane divided highway a good while before the Interstate system came to be. It is downright claustrophobic to be on and then once you cross it heading into Memphis, you're greeted with a sharp left curve, RIRO slip lanes, and a super tight cloverleaf that has been obsolete since the early 1970's.  And of course, going the other way, you have to navigate the super tight 270 degree ramp.

There are others who can speak to this better, but I know the original plans were for a freeway connection north along Riverside Drive past I-40. That would have entailed a real interchange with EH Crump.  Thankfully that freeway got scrapped.
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bwana39

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Re: Who Is More Deserving Of A New Mississippi River Bridge?
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2021, 02:55:11 PM »

I'd say Memphis because it's more narrow and it's not interstate standard. And the 270 turn is dangerous.
I'm surprised to this day that it ever got Interstate status to begin with! That bridge was made originally for a 4 lane divided highway a good while before the Interstate system came to be. It is downright claustrophobic to be on and then once you cross it heading into Memphis, you're greeted with a sharp left curve, RIRO slip lanes, and a super tight cloverleaf that has been obsolete since the early 1970's.  And of course, going the other way, you have to navigate the super tight 270 degree ramp.


It was grandfathered. Regardless the Crump interchange needs redone. If I-55 WERE to be re-routed to a new bridge, Perhaps US-78 (Crump Avenue) would be the through route and a more simple intersection would be in order.

There are others who can speak to this better, but I know the original plans were for a freeway connection north along Riverside Drive past I-40. That would have entailed a real interchange with EH Crump.  Thankfully that freeway got scrapped.

There were lots of Freeways not built back then. Some because of public resistance, some because the routing just was too expensive, others because the priorities were listed as lower. Some were dropped because they were added as a pipedream. I add pipedreams on here some of them even make sense.   I-240 (Now I-69) was a better crosstown connector.
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I-39

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Re: Who Is More Deserving Of A New Mississippi River Bridge?
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2021, 09:17:42 AM »

So why aren’t there any specific plans for replacing the I-55 bridge?
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Revive 755

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Re: Who Is More Deserving Of A New Mississippi River Bridge?
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2021, 12:50:15 PM »

There are others who can speak to this better, but I know the original plans were for a freeway connection north along Riverside Drive past I-40. That would have entailed a real interchange with EH Crump.  Thankfully that freeway got scrapped.

I don't know about a "real interchange with EH Crump" - they may have just kept the original cloverleaf, though with better acceleration/deceleration lanes on the north leg.
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Re: Who Is More Deserving Of A New Mississippi River Bridge?
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2021, 02:52:30 PM »

So why aren’t there any specific plans for replacing the I-55 bridge?
A project of this size would almost certainly need large scale federal investment to proceed. TDOT/ArDot would not be able to pay for this project themselves. Plus you have the constant neglect of Memphis by the TN government that has continued for several decades.
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Re: Who Is More Deserving Of A New Mississippi River Bridge?
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2021, 02:59:29 PM »

The Black Hawk Bridge in Lansing, Iowa:
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