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Walmart lawsuit

Started by LM117, December 01, 2021, 07:56:00 AM

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LM117

A jury awarded a woman $2.1M after being falsely accused of shoplifting. Apparently, Walmart makes bank on making false accusations and then going for a settlement. WTF?

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/walmart-shoplifted-jury-awards-21-million-81463335
“I don’t know whether to wind my ass or scratch my watch!” - Jim Cornette


SectorZ

Apparently they believe that there is a secondary preponderance of evidence for shoplifting cases civilly after criminal acquittal.

The stuff they try just blows my mind.

The concept of using collection companies to collect what are effectively claimed third party damages, without actually going to court first, may be one of the lowest ways to conduct business. Saw this same stuff in the insurance world as well.

Max Rockatansky

#2
Most states have a Civil Recovery Statute that allows retailers to pursue some form of debt collection related to theft/shoplifting.  The standard rate most retailers attempt to recover is $200 dollars.  The theory is that it covers all the costs associated with the time Loss Prevention puts into a shoplift apprehension.  Usually it's no big deal unless someone makes a dumb ass "bad stop"  like what happened here.  It's likely the Civil Demand people at Walmart weren't talking to the stored and was unaware this was a bad stop where someone was falsely accused of shoplifting.  Typically the Civil Demand is issued via an automated process that reads case reports and suspect mailing addresses.

Typically the rate of actual payment for Civil Demand is about 40%, most people know it would never see a Civil Court.  That's one of the primary reasons I tend to think the practice of Civil Demand is antiquated.  Even the military world our Civil Demand recovery rate is just in the 50-60% range.

hbelkins

If someone who isn't a sworn law enforcement officer attempts to detain you at a retail outlet, are you under any obligation to heed their demands?

Even if it's a uniformed "security guard" with a badge of some sort pinned to their polyester blue shirt with multiple pockets and flaps, are you under any obligation to stop for them? (And yes, I know that many stores employ off-duty sworn officers, and that's a different set of circumstances than hiring Paul Blart.)


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

zachary_amaryllis

Quote from: hbelkins on December 01, 2021, 11:16:12 AM
If someone who isn't a sworn law enforcement officer attempts to detain you at a retail outlet, are you under any obligation to heed their demands?

Even if it's a uniformed "security guard" with a badge of some sort pinned to their polyester blue shirt with multiple pockets and flaps, are you under any obligation to stop for them? (And yes, I know that many stores employ off-duty sworn officers, and that's a different set of circumstances than hiring Paul Blart.)

so i don't shoplift.

having said that, i've been stopped on the way out of walmart because i was suspected of it. apparently i fit a profile. i told the guy to call the police, and i'd wait for the police to sort it out. the guy was mildly threatening to me 'all you have to do is empty your pockets, man'. after much back-and-forth, he decided it wasn't worth the trouble.

i respect the police, a rarity among those of us who've done time. i have little respect for 'fake' police.
clinched:
I-64, I-80, I-76 (west), *64s in hampton roads, 225,270,180 (co, wy)

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: hbelkins on December 01, 2021, 11:16:12 AM
If someone who isn't a sworn law enforcement officer attempts to detain you at a retail outlet, are you under any obligation to heed their demands?

Even if it's a uniformed "security guard" with a badge of some sort pinned to their polyester blue shirt with multiple pockets and flaps, are you under any obligation to stop for them? (And yes, I know that many stores employ off-duty sworn officers, and that's a different set of circumstances than hiring Paul Blart.)

It's kind of a grey area but the concept of a shoplift apprehension is generally considered to be a citizens arrest.  For most part retail Loss Prevention staff aren't uniformed and generally don't display a badge. Basically the premise of someone in Loss Prevention detaining someone is to turn them over expediently to a legal authority.  The legal authority makes the actual arrest and pursues criminal charges if warranted.

To that end, in the public world I would say about 95% of shoplift apprehensions go off without much fuss.  There are some people who are verbally resistant and definitely don't respect someone they view as just a retail employee.  In about 1% or apprehensions (there has been over 500 but I lost count about ten years ago) there ends up being a fight or a chase.  Different companies have differing rules regarding fighting and pursuing shoplifters. 

For what it's worth I've been in retail Loss Prevention for twenty years and have managed it for fifteen years.  Aside from maybe the first six months where I was a Target Protection Specialist (AKA security guard) I've always been plain clothes.  Amusing when I worked at Dillard's we did have off-duty police officers working security but I was one who decided who we apprehended. 

SP Cook

Quote from: hbelkins on December 01, 2021, 11:16:12 AM
If someone who isn't a sworn law enforcement officer attempts to detain you at a retail outlet, are you under any obligation to heed their demands?

Even if it's a uniformed "security guard" with a badge of some sort pinned to their polyester blue shirt with multiple pockets and flaps, are you under any obligation to stop for them?

KRS 433.236 (1)

https://apps.legislature.ky.gov/law/statutes/statute.aspx?id=18742


Max Rockatansky

Quote from: SP Cook on December 01, 2021, 12:33:50 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on December 01, 2021, 11:16:12 AM
If someone who isn't a sworn law enforcement officer attempts to detain you at a retail outlet, are you under any obligation to heed their demands?

Even if it's a uniformed "security guard" with a badge of some sort pinned to their polyester blue shirt with multiple pockets and flaps, are you under any obligation to stop for them?

KRS 433.236 (1)

https://apps.legislature.ky.gov/law/statutes/statute.aspx?id=18742

The statute for Arizona I used to train my new staff on:

https://azleg.gov/ars/13/01805.htm

In_Correct

QuoteThere are some people who are verbally resistant and definitely don't respect someone they view as just a retail employee.

I try to have respect for Retail Employees. What I can not respect is not knowing how to count, not knowing how to operate your computers that monitor the transactions occurring, not marking the malfunctioning stations as Out Of Order, and confusing a shopping list for a receipt. And if they are hostile first.
Drive Safely. :sombrero: Ride Safely. And Build More Roads, Rails, And Bridges. :coffee: ... Boulevards Wear Faster Than Interstates.

Max Rockatansky

#9
Quote from: In_Correct on December 01, 2021, 12:52:46 PM
QuoteThere are some people who are verbally resistant and definitely don't respect someone they view as just a retail employee.

I try to have respect for Retail Employees. What I can not respect is not knowing how to count, not knowing how to operate your computers that monitor the transactions occurring, not marking the malfunctioning stations as Out Of Order, and confusing a shopping list for a receipt. And if they are hostile first.

Okay fair enough, I find the inane nature of shopping to be tedious in general.  That said, I find it a little silly that people are so willing to get angry at what is largely an entry level work force. 

What I'm referring to though is a situation where someone has stolen from a store and is confronted about it.  People almost always show you who they really are when you question their integrity regarding shoplifting.  Overwhelmingly most people are compliant and generally very remorseful about having stolen.  Some of the worst altercations I've had with shoplifters have been with supposed "good people"  with no criminal record to speak of.  The people who are often willing to start actual fights over things like shoplifting might not be the hardened criminals that popular perception often portrays them as.

Avalanchez71

#10
Quote from: hbelkins on December 01, 2021, 11:16:12 AM
If someone who isn't a sworn law enforcement officer attempts to detain you at a retail outlet, are you under any obligation to heed their demands?

Even if it's a uniformed "security guard" with a badge of some sort pinned to their polyester blue shirt with multiple pockets and flaps, are you under any obligation to stop for them? (And yes, I know that many stores employ off-duty sworn officers, and that's a different set of circumstances than hiring Paul Blart.)

TENNESSEE
§ 40-7-109. Arrest by private person -- Grounds.
Universal Citation: TN Code § 40-7-109 (2019)
(a) A private person may arrest another:

(1) For a public offense committed in the arresting person's presence;

(2) When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not in the arresting person's presence; or

(3) When a felony has been committed, and the arresting person has reasonable cause to believe that the person arrested committed the felony.

(b) A private person who makes an arrest of another pursuant to §§ 40-7-109 — 40-7-115 shall receive no arrest fee or compensation for the arrest.

§ 40-7-113. Disposition of person arrested by private person.
Universal Citation: TN Code § 40-7-113 (2019)
(a) A private person who has arrested another for a public offense shall, without unnecessary delay, take the arrested person before a magistrate or deliver the arrested person to an officer.

(b) An officer may take before a magistrate, without a warrant, any person who, being engaged in the commission of a public offense, is arrested by a bystander and delivered to the officer, and anyone arrested by a private person as provided in §§ 40-7-109 — 40-7-112, and delivered to the officer.

Specific TCA related to retail theft.
§ 40-7-116. Theft -- Detention of suspect by merchant or peace officer.
Universal Citation: TN Code § 40-7-116 (2019)
(a) A merchant, a merchant's employee, or agent or a peace officer who has probable cause to believe that a person has committed or is attempting to commit the offense of theft, as defined in § 39-14-103, may detain that person on or off the premises of the mercantile establishment if the detention is done for any or all of the following purposes:

(1) To question the person, investigate the surrounding circumstances, obtain a statement, or any combination thereof;

(2) To request or verify identification, or both;

(3) To inform a peace officer of the detention of that person, or surrender that person to the custody of a peace officer, or both;

(4) To inform a peace officer, the parent or parents, guardian or other private person interested in the welfare of a minor of the detention and to surrender the minor to the custody of that person; or

(5) To institute criminal proceedings against the person.

(b) Probable cause to suspect that a person has committed or is attempting to commit the offense of theft may be based on, but not limited to:

(1) Personal observation, including observation via closed circuit television or other visual device;

(2) Report of personal observation from another merchant;

(3) Activation of an electronic or other type of mechanical device designed to detect theft; or

(4) Personal observation of dressing rooms, including observation via closed circuit television, two-way mirrors, or other visual devices, shall be limited to observation by a person of the same sex as the person being observed. No observation shall be lawful unless notices are posted in the dressing rooms that monitoring may occur.

(c) A merchant, a merchant's employee or agent, or a peace officer who detains, questions or causes the arrest of any person suspected of theft shall not be criminally or civilly liable for any legal action relating to the detention, questioning or arrest if the merchant, merchant's employee or agent, or peace officer:

(1) Has reasonable grounds to suspect that the person has committed or is attempting to commit theft;

(2) Acts in a reasonable manner under the circumstances; and

(3) Detains the suspected person for a reasonable period of time.

(d) The merchant may use a reasonable amount of force necessary to protect the merchant, to prevent escape of the person detained, or to prevent the loss or destruction of property.

(e) A “reasonable period of time”, for the purposes of this section, is a period of time long enough to accomplish the purpose set forth in this section, and shall include any time spent awaiting the arrival of a law enforcement officer or the parents or guardian of a juvenile suspect, if the merchant or the merchant's employee or agent has summoned a law enforcement officer, the parents or a guardian.

LM117

Quote from: In_Correct on December 01, 2021, 12:52:46 PM
QuoteThere are some people who are verbally resistant and definitely don't respect someone they view as just a retail employee.

I try to have respect for Retail Employees. What I can not respect is not knowing how to count, not knowing how to operate your computers that monitor the transactions occurring, not marking the malfunctioning stations as Out Of Order, and confusing a shopping list for a receipt. And if they are hostile first.

Hell, the Family Dollar near me recently got a new manager, and she had no clue how to work the register.
“I don’t know whether to wind my ass or scratch my watch!” - Jim Cornette

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: LM117 on December 01, 2021, 04:11:52 PM
Quote from: In_Correct on December 01, 2021, 12:52:46 PM
QuoteThere are some people who are verbally resistant and definitely don't respect someone they view as just a retail employee.

I try to have respect for Retail Employees. What I can not respect is not knowing how to count, not knowing how to operate your computers that monitor the transactions occurring, not marking the malfunctioning stations as Out Of Order, and confusing a shopping list for a receipt. And if they are hostile first.

Hell, the Family Dollar near me recently got a new manager, and she had no clue how to work the register.

But aren't your expectations for Family Dollar slightly out of whack with reality?  A manager at Family Dollar is analogous to maybe a hourly department supervisor or lead at a big retailer at Target.  I kind of feel like you're missing the point if you walk into a dollar store expecting a boutique shopping experience or have super high expectations for generally anything.

Scott5114

I'd say the expectations for a manager are somewhat more out of whack with reality. The percentage of managers that actually know anything about the jobs of the people they manage is way lower than it should be. Managers being promoted from front line is the exception rather than the rule anymore; upper managers would much rather bring in their buddies to be lower managers than have to learn anything about the icky people that do the work so that they might pick one of them to promote. And then these people show zero interest in actually learning what they're managing, because their ambitions are to moving up to higher levels of management, not dirtying their hands cleaning a toilet or running a register.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Max Rockatansky

#14
Not that I disagree (example; this thread is evidence that few understand what I do)but we are referring to Family Dollar.  It's basically the bottom of the barrel of the mainstream retail industry.  Very few associated with store level/managment employment in any of the three big dollar store chains is likely living on high.  At best being a manager at a Family Dollar might be a stepping stone to higher aspirations with another retailer.

hotdogPi

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 01, 2021, 04:49:03 PM
I'd say the expectations for a manager are somewhat more out of whack with reality. The percentage of managers that actually know anything about the jobs of the people they manage is way lower than it should be. Managers being promoted from front line is the exception rather than the rule anymore; upper managers would much rather bring in their buddies to be lower managers than have to learn anything about the icky people that do the work so that they might pick one of them to promote. And then these people show zero interest in actually learning what they're managing, because their ambitions are to moving up to higher levels of management, not dirtying their hands cleaning a toilet or running a register.

Not the case in my experience at Stop & Shop. Managers were pretty good at the register. However, this might be because we were sometimes understaffed, especially when two or more people called out, or on Sunday where workers get time and a half (it's in the process of being phased out statewide, but the union is keeping it for anyone who joined before the April 2019 strike). There was one time when four people called out on a Sunday, net three (they called me in), and since it was a low volume store, four people is a larger percentage than it would be at a high volume store.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

thspfc

It would be interesting to know what percentage of shoplifting incidents get noticed by employees. Of that percentage, it would be interested to know what percentage of the time employees who notice take any action whatsoever.

I for one would never say anything to a person who I knew was shoplifting. Not willing to go through that stress so that my employer can save some money.

TheHighwayMan3561

Quote from: thspfc on December 01, 2021, 05:11:43 PM
I for one would never say anything to a person who I knew was shoplifting. Not willing to go through that stress so that my employer can save some money.

Exactly. They don't pay me enough to deal with that shit, and they hire people who are specifically supposed to deal with it anyway.
self-certified as the dumbest person on this board for 5 years running

Max Rockatansky

#18
^^^

Yes, people like me it seems.  It actually has paid pretty well historically but I wouldn't want to be the person being the shoplift catcher for many reasons now.  This might sound weird, but I've always been afraid of stopping someone who didn't steal by mistake (which I've never done).  For whatever reason confronting shoplifters and all it can entail has never really bothered me. 

Quote from: thspfc on December 01, 2021, 05:11:43 PM
It would be interesting to know what percentage of shoplifting incidents get noticed by employees. Of that percentage, it would be interested to know what percentage of the time employees who notice take any action whatsoever.

I for one would never say anything to a person who I knew was shoplifting. Not willing to go through that stress so that my employer can save some money.

Back at Target and Sears the estimate was generally 1/7 to 1/10 shoplifters were actually detected and apprehended by a store with fully staffed (a rarity now) Loss Prevention.  I would say that's a fair estimate for stores that actually have in-store Loss Prevention.  Most retailers don't permit non-Loss Prevention employees to conduct shoplift apprehensions as a safety and liability thing.  Like you said, even if employees did see some sort of shoplifting going on most would rather not be part of actually confronting a shoplifter.  The worst is when you get some cowboy employee who doesn't know what they are looking at accusing customers of shoplifting.

Scott5114

Quote from: 1 on December 01, 2021, 04:56:01 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 01, 2021, 04:49:03 PM
I'd say the expectations for a manager are somewhat more out of whack with reality. The percentage of managers that actually know anything about the jobs of the people they manage is way lower than it should be. Managers being promoted from front line is the exception rather than the rule anymore; upper managers would much rather bring in their buddies to be lower managers than have to learn anything about the icky people that do the work so that they might pick one of them to promote. And then these people show zero interest in actually learning what they're managing, because their ambitions are to moving up to higher levels of management, not dirtying their hands cleaning a toilet or running a register.

Not the case in my experience at Stop & Shop. Managers were pretty good at the register. However, this might be because we were sometimes understaffed, especially when two or more people called out, or on Sunday where workers get time and a half (it's in the process of being phased out statewide, but the union is keeping it for anyone who joined before the April 2019 strike). There was one time when four people called out on a Sunday, net three (they called me in), and since it was a low volume store, four people is a larger percentage than it would be at a high volume store.

I mean, that's also a union job, which has far different power dynamics than a non-union job. I've never worked a union job, but my understanding is that contracts often stipulate that things like seniority must be taken into account when certain decisions are made. I'm not sure if that covers promotions or not, since union contracts usually don't cover management (at least above a certain level).

In the non-union casino job I worked, there was a lot of stuff like general manager of Casino B moves up to become general manager of larger Casino A, and then for the next several management positions that come open, rather than moving people up from Casino A, he transfers in his old management crew from Casino B.

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 01, 2021, 05:16:51 PM
Quote from: thspfc on December 01, 2021, 05:11:43 PM
I for one would never say anything to a person who I knew was shoplifting. Not willing to go through that stress so that my employer can save some money.

Exactly. They don't pay me enough to deal with that shit, and they hire people who are specifically supposed to deal with it anyway.

That, and if I get injured in an altercation with the guy, the potential hospital bill is more than likely going to be way more than the value of whatever item was being stolen, and it's hard to say if the company will weasel out of paying it or not. Even if they do, there is still going to be time off of work for recovery, and the pain and trauma of going through it. Easier to let them go. There's a chance that they may need the item more than the store needs the money for it anyway.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Max Rockatansky

#20
The only time I ever had a Workman's Comp claim for a shoplifter was when a guy on PCL bled all over me during an apprehension.  His skin was extremely thin and it took five people to get him under enough control where I could handcuff him (this was at Target in 2003).

I've been threaten with a knife three times, someone went at me with brass knuckles at Sears, one guy tried to make his phone look like a gun and I've been punched/kicked/scratched/bitten a couple dozen times.  The majority of the actual fights I've been in with shoplifters was the 2001-07 era when retailers were still on the whole big on forcefully detaining shoplifters if they didn't cooperate.  The worst instance was when I was jumped by three guys who were part of a booster ring, I'm still surprised I brought one of them back in cuffs.  I haven't been a physical confrontation with a shoplifter since early 2013 but that one was pretty much just an arm lock maneuver and take down.

Also, I did trip and fall down some stairs going after a shoplifter in 2005.  I bled a lot in the office but it stopped while the police were responding and I didn't bother filing a claim.

ran4sh

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 01, 2021, 11:35:43 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on December 01, 2021, 11:16:12 AM
If someone who isn't a sworn law enforcement officer attempts to detain you at a retail outlet, are you under any obligation to heed their demands?

Even if it's a uniformed "security guard" with a badge of some sort pinned to their polyester blue shirt with multiple pockets and flaps, are you under any obligation to stop for them? (And yes, I know that many stores employ off-duty sworn officers, and that's a different set of circumstances than hiring Paul Blart.)

It's kind of a grey area but the concept of a shoplift apprehension is generally considered to be a citizens arrest.  For most part retail Loss Prevention staff aren't uniformed and generally don't display a badge. Basically the premise of someone in Loss Prevention detaining someone is to turn them over expediently to a legal authority.  The legal authority makes the actual arrest and pursues criminal charges if warranted.

To that end, in the public world I would say about 95% of shoplift apprehensions go off without much fuss.  There are some people who are verbally resistant and definitely don't respect someone they view as just a retail employee.  In about 1% or apprehensions (there has been over 500 but I lost count about ten years ago) there ends up being a fight or a chase.  Different companies have differing rules regarding fighting and pursuing shoplifters. 

For what it's worth I've been in retail Loss Prevention for twenty years and have managed it for fifteen years.  Aside from maybe the first six months where I was a Target Protection Specialist (AKA security guard) I've always been plain clothes.  Amusing when I worked at Dillard's we did have off-duty police officers working security but I was one who decided who we apprehended. 

If it's counted as citizens' arrest then does that make it illegal in the states that have made citizens' arrest illegal?
Control cities CAN be off the route! Control cities make NO sense if signs end before the city is reached!

Travel Mapping - Most Traveled: I-40, 20, 10, 5, 95 - Longest Clinched: I-20, 85, 24, 16, NJ Tpk mainline
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Max Rockatansky

Quote from: ran4sh on December 01, 2021, 05:39:28 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 01, 2021, 11:35:43 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on December 01, 2021, 11:16:12 AM
If someone who isn't a sworn law enforcement officer attempts to detain you at a retail outlet, are you under any obligation to heed their demands?

Even if it's a uniformed "security guard" with a badge of some sort pinned to their polyester blue shirt with multiple pockets and flaps, are you under any obligation to stop for them? (And yes, I know that many stores employ off-duty sworn officers, and that's a different set of circumstances than hiring Paul Blart.)

It's kind of a grey area but the concept of a shoplift apprehension is generally considered to be a citizens arrest.  For most part retail Loss Prevention staff aren't uniformed and generally don't display a badge. Basically the premise of someone in Loss Prevention detaining someone is to turn them over expediently to a legal authority.  The legal authority makes the actual arrest and pursues criminal charges if warranted.

To that end, in the public world I would say about 95% of shoplift apprehensions go off without much fuss.  There are some people who are verbally resistant and definitely don't respect someone they view as just a retail employee.  In about 1% or apprehensions (there has been over 500 but I lost count about ten years ago) there ends up being a fight or a chase.  Different companies have differing rules regarding fighting and pursuing shoplifters. 

For what it's worth I've been in retail Loss Prevention for twenty years and have managed it for fifteen years.  Aside from maybe the first six months where I was a Target Protection Specialist (AKA security guard) I've always been plain clothes.  Amusing when I worked at Dillard's we did have off-duty police officers working security but I was one who decided who we apprehended. 

If it's counted as citizens' arrest then does that make it illegal in the states that have made citizens' arrest illegal?

They probably have specific statutes, see the references above for some examples.

ran4sh

That sounds like government BS although I'm not surprised. It's interesting that there are states that prevent individuals from making arrests but allow businesses to do so.
Control cities CAN be off the route! Control cities make NO sense if signs end before the city is reached!

Travel Mapping - Most Traveled: I-40, 20, 10, 5, 95 - Longest Clinched: I-20, 85, 24, 16, NJ Tpk mainline
Champions - UGA FB '21 '22 - Atlanta Braves '95 '21 - Atlanta MLS '18

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: ran4sh on December 01, 2021, 05:44:29 PM
That sounds like government BS although I'm not surprised. It's interesting that there are states that prevent individuals from making arrests but allow businesses to do so.

Probably speaks more to the fact how common shoplifting can be.  Off duty police would likely cost $30-$50 dollars an hour depending on the jurisdiction.  The MCSO guys we had at Dillard's circa 2004-05 were making $25-$30 off duty.  I was making $14.50 at the time in college working there 30 hours a week in Loss Prevention.  I could imagine some hourly Loss Prevention person making more than $20 dollars an hour (factoring inflation) but it was kind of common back then. 



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