Toyota owners have to pay $8/mo to keep using their key fob for remote start

[formulanone]

I have yet to have a touch-screen prevent me from using the climate controls or most basic radio buttons at any point in vehicle operation. I still think they should be in their own panels, because I feel that HVAC operation works best with actual tactile buttons, switches, or knobs...touching a flat screen seems to take longer to react to great changes when only very short bursts of time are available.

If moving, usually these infotainment systems prevent the driver from deactivating some features; vehicle-operation features, scrolling though an album collection, punching in a direct address in Maps/GPS/Navigation, but not preventing me from accessing the temperature controls or playing with the radio volume.

That said, there's always a few outliers that made their own multi-function displays which over-nannied or made it so tricky to perform basic operations that you may as well wait until you're stuck at a long traffic light.

[SectorZ]

Another reason not to buy a Toyota. Most mediocre, milquetoast, anodyne cars in the world. The only thing they have going for them is the "reliable" stereotype, which is a moot point these days because virtually every modern car not built in Italy is reliable.

They and Honda have spent the past 20 years living off that reliability mantle without actually advancing like everyone else.

Companies like Mazda are going to start blowing them out of the water pretty soon.

Meanwhile, those of us who prefer to buy cars and not techno gizmos on wheels like that they're not "advancing" like everyone else.  Touchscreens aren't exactly safe to use while driving either, no idea why they're all the rage right now.

I meant advancing in terms of reliability, not technology. Honda has had a TON of problems with long-term reliability in certain years and models. I thought I prefaced that in my original statement but I guess not.

[Max Rockatansky]

Another reason not to buy a Toyota. Most mediocre, milquetoast, anodyne cars in the world. The only thing they have going for them is the "reliable" stereotype, which is a moot point these days because virtually every modern car not built in Italy is reliable.

They and Honda have spent the past 20 years living off that reliability mantle without actually advancing like everyone else.

Companies like Mazda are going to start blowing them out of the water pretty soon.

Meanwhile, those of us who prefer to buy cars and not techno gizmos on wheels like that they're not "advancing" like everyone else.  Touchscreens aren't exactly safe to use while driving either, no idea why they're all the rage right now.

I meant advancing in terms of reliability, not technology. Honda has had a TON of problems with long-term reliability in certain years and models. I thought I prefaced that in my original statement but I guess not.

Wasn't there an issue with Japanese manufactured cars not containing galvanized steel in their body panels?  I seem to recall that's was a significant reason why a lot of 1980s era Hondas and Toyotas disappeared way being the domestics when I was in High School in Lansing.

[kalvado]

Another reason not to buy a Toyota. Most mediocre, milquetoast, anodyne cars in the world. The only thing they have going for them is the "reliable" stereotype, which is a moot point these days because virtually every modern car not built in Italy is reliable.

They and Honda have spent the past 20 years living off that reliability mantle without actually advancing like everyone else.

Companies like Mazda are going to start blowing them out of the water pretty soon.

Meanwhile, those of us who prefer to buy cars and not techno gizmos on wheels like that they're not "advancing" like everyone else.  Touchscreens aren't exactly safe to use while driving either, no idea why they're all the rage right now.

I meant advancing in terms of reliability, not technology. Honda has had a TON of problems with long-term reliability in certain years and models. I thought I prefaced that in my original statement but I guess not.

Wasn't there an issue with Japanese manufactured cars not containing galvanized steel in their body panels?  I seem to recall that's was a significant reason why a lot of 1980s era Hondas and Toyotas disappeared way being the domestics when I was in High School in Lansing.

I, for one, got a transmission problem in my 2001 civic. This was a mass defect with pretty high occurrence rate on that year and model. 2002 Accord had the same problem and they won a class action over the issue.  I had to pay for my fix out of pocket though.
https://redmountainfunding.co/blog/best-used-honda-cars-what-models-and-years-are-most-reliable/

Similar to the Accord, the most common complaints about the Honda Civic were issues with the transmission. The 2001 model was the worst year for Honda Civics. People spent an average of $2,300 fixing transmission failure after 104,000 miles.

As the other datapoint, my wife bought her second CR-V in 2019, and is pretty happy about it.

[Dirt Roads]

Wasn't there an issue with Japanese manufactured cars not containing galvanized steel in their body panels?  I seem to recall that's was a significant reason why a lot of 1980s era Hondas and Toyotas disappeared way being the domestics when I was in High School in Lansing.

Back in the old days, the main issue was corrosion from dissimilar metals, which was acerbated by the fact that the new cars were exposed to way too much saltwater air on the trip over from Japan.  Most of the American cars also had the dissimilar metal issue as well.  For years and years, it was just assumed that there wasn't anything that could be done to stop this corrosion process.  But nowadays, there is a lot of design effort to connect parts such that dissimilar metals will never make contact with each other, and when you can't prove such then using identical metals to make the hard contact connections. 

It is my impression that it is nearly impossible to find a source for carframe + body + bolts + washer + lockwasher that all are made from the same exact steel composition.  I used to get asked this question all the time, but I was only responsible for dealing with the safety issues related to the long-term corrosion issues.  On railcars, we had the additional issue that you could get a lot of leaking battery voltages floating around through the grounding systems (this can also happen in cars and trucks, and is probably going to get much worse with higher voltage car batteries).  If you think saltwalter is bad for corrosion, how about a steady electrical current?

[kalvado]

Wasn't there an issue with Japanese manufactured cars not containing galvanized steel in their body panels?  I seem to recall that's was a significant reason why a lot of 1980s era Hondas and Toyotas disappeared way being the domestics when I was in High School in Lansing.

Back in the old days, the main issue was corrosion from dissimilar metals, which was acerbated by the fact that the new cars were exposed to way too much saltwater air on the trip over from Japan.  Most of the American cars also had the dissimilar metal issue as well.  For years and years, it was just assumed that there wasn't anything that could be done to stop this corrosion process.  But nowadays, there is a lot of design effort to connect parts such that dissimilar metals will never make contact with each other, and when you can't prove such then using identical metals to make the hard contact connections. 

It is my impression that it is nearly impossible to find a source for carframe + body + bolts + washer + lockwasher that all are made from the same exact steel composition.  I used to get asked this question all the time, but I was only responsible for dealing with the safety issues related to the long-term corrosion issues.  On railcars, we had the additional issue that you could get a lot of leaking battery voltages floating around through the grounding systems (this can also happen in cars and trucks, and is probably going to get much worse with higher voltage car batteries).  If you think saltwalter is bad for corrosion, how about a steady electrical current?

I had a pretty weird rust issue  which I believe originated from a copper penny which fell down to the bottom of the trunk..

As for hardware, I thought stainless steel nuts and bolts should take care of most issues? 

[vdeane]

It always seems to be rust issues that gets cars in the end.  Between my Mom's 84 (I think) Accord, 97 Accord (which I inherited), 09 Civic, and my 14 Civic, we never had issues beyond routine maintenance that weren't rust related.  The 84 Accord had it the worst - the whole frame was rusted in the end.  That said, rust issues is probably a given for anything in upstate NY.

Another reason not to buy a Toyota. Most mediocre, milquetoast, anodyne cars in the world. The only thing they have going for them is the "reliable" stereotype, which is a moot point these days because virtually every modern car not built in Italy is reliable.

They and Honda have spent the past 20 years living off that reliability mantle without actually advancing like everyone else.

Companies like Mazda are going to start blowing them out of the water pretty soon.

Meanwhile, those of us who prefer to buy cars and not techno gizmos on wheels like that they're not "advancing" like everyone else.  Touchscreens aren't exactly safe to use while driving either, no idea why they're all the rage right now.

Once rear view cameras became mandatory, so did larger screens.
And steering wheel buttons along with voice control allow to minimal touchscreen use while driving.

My Civic has a backup camera and still controls everything with regular buttons.  It even has a few steering wheel buttons that are handy for the radio.  I don't like the idea of a car (or pretty much anything else) listening to everything I say.  I've heard enough horror stories about the Alexa incidents a few years ago.  And before anyone says "smartphone", a mic is an integral component of a phone, so we have to accept such there.  Doesn't mean we need to proliferate the problem, especially to places like cars where the people designing and programming them care about security and privacy even less.

I will say there, there is one silver lining to having the radio presets on a touchscreen: they're not limited to two banks of six (three if we're including AM) and can be one big bank of many more.

made it so tricky to perform basic operations that you may as well wait until you're stuck at a long traffic light.

*cough* Tesla *cough*

[formulanone]

Live in infamy moment (which I'll probably regret one day): Teslas aren't real cars. They're expensive appliances that look like cars, but designed, sold, and maintained by the standards and attitudes of a cell phone provider.

Overpriced junk that's undeniably ahead of its time; but with a terrible half-life and limited aftermarket support.

[tradephoric]

Line in infamy moment (which I'll probably regret one day): Teslas aren't real cars. They're expensive appliances that look like cars, but designed, sold, and maintained by the standards and attitudes of a cell phone provider.

Overpriced junk that's undeniably ahead of it's time; but with a terrible half-life and limited aftermarket support.

The biggest issue i have with Tesla is they take 60 minutes to fully charge even at the newest V3 Superchargers.  There are cases where you will want to fully charge your EV especially in the middle of winter when you only get half of the estimated range to begin with... batteries just plain suck in the cold.  Taking 3 minutes to fill up my gas tank vs. 60 minutes to charge the EV... that additional 57 minutes is too much of an inconvenience for me personally but to each their own. 

[SectorZ]

Another reason not to buy a Toyota. Most mediocre, milquetoast, anodyne cars in the world. The only thing they have going for them is the "reliable" stereotype, which is a moot point these days because virtually every modern car not built in Italy is reliable.

They and Honda have spent the past 20 years living off that reliability mantle without actually advancing like everyone else.

Companies like Mazda are going to start blowing them out of the water pretty soon.

Meanwhile, those of us who prefer to buy cars and not techno gizmos on wheels like that they're not "advancing" like everyone else.  Touchscreens aren't exactly safe to use while driving either, no idea why they're all the rage right now.

I meant advancing in terms of reliability, not technology. Honda has had a TON of problems with long-term reliability in certain years and models. I thought I prefaced that in my original statement but I guess not.

Wasn't there an issue with Japanese manufactured cars not containing galvanized steel in their body panels?  I seem to recall that's was a significant reason why a lot of 1980s era Hondas and Toyotas disappeared way being the domestics when I was in High School in Lansing.

I, for one, got a transmission problem in my 2001 civic. This was a mass defect with pretty high occurrence rate on that year and model. 2002 Accord had the same problem and they won a class action over the issue.  I had to pay for my fix out of pocket though.
https://redmountainfunding.co/blog/best-used-honda-cars-what-models-and-years-are-most-reliable/

I had an '01 Civic but thankfully got rid of it before that. I had an '06 Civic that had the engine literally start cracking in two. I was patient zero for that, and surprisingly they paid $4500 of the $4800 to replace the engine since I was 7,000 miles beyond the powertrain warranty expiration. Later on it became a big issue for '06-'08 Civics, and inevitably they even repaid the $300 out of pocket I paid to get it fixed a year later.

My wife's '15 CR-V vibrates horribly stopped at idle, and the dealership can't figure out why. Even when I pointed out that it's doing so because the idle is so low it's almost stalling. 98K miles and still can't get it resolved.

[Dirt Roads]

As for hardware, I thought stainless steel nuts and bolts should take care of most issues?

Nope.  Even if you get the same grade of stainless steel, there will be enough differences in each furnace run (batch) that will be significant enough to trigger corrosion.  Some manufacturers do use a variety stainless steel parts with the same grade in order to reduce the long-term corrosion in case of contact.  Then they will use neoprene sleeve and washers to separate the metals to avoid short-term corrosion. 

Interestingly, I had a problem with a Toyota SUV whereby the robot overtorqued the bolts attaching the "bed" to the frame.  The neoprene washers cracked, which led to a suction action ever time rainwater sprayed up into the wheel well.  That water ran under the carpet in the trunk, then somehow dripped down into vapor tank filter.  Whenever the filter was full of water, the oxygen sensors went out.  And, of course, the microscopic metals pulled from the frame (from corrosion) eventually corroded out the oxygen sensors.  Over and over and over.  Fortunately, Toyota replaced the vapor tank filter (once during the warranty and five times afterwards) at no cost to me.  That was some $950 a pop.  They never fixed the problem and I traded down after only 3 years.

[hbelkins]

I've officially retired my 2000 Toyota Tacoma. Applied for a junk title last week so I won't have to pay taxes on it any more. The frame has rusted to the point that you can visibly see how the vehicle dips between the cab and the bed.

It has 230K miles on it and about the only things I ever had to replace on it were the starter and the power steering pump.

[JayhawkCO]

I've officially retired my 2000 Toyota Tacoma. Applied for a junk title last week so I won't have to pay taxes on it any more. The frame has rusted to the point that you can visibly see how the vehicle dips between the cab and the bed.

It has 230K miles on it and about the only things I ever had to replace on it were the starter and the power steering pump.

Looks like you got your money's worth on your Taco.

[ZLoth]

Meanwhile, those of us who prefer to buy cars and not techno gizmos on wheels like that they're not "advancing" like everyone else. Touchscreens aren't exactly safe to use while driving either, no idea why they're all the rage right now.

Per this article:

On March 31, 2014, the U.S. Department of Transportation (USDOT) and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) declared that by May 1, 2018, all cars, SUVs, trucks and vans would be required to have rear-view visibility systems.

You might as well include passive information on that screen. Also, having the Bluetooth connection allows not only for hands-free mobile phone operation, but also for mobile audio such as a audiobook or my own tunes. This beats what passes for terrestrial radio nowadays.

I am also challenged on what additional applications are needed beyond a navigation application and an audio application. (OK, add in a voice recognition app so that I can say "Ok Google, open the pod bay doors" to open up the garage door and deactivate the alarm system.) I can understand wanting to have Yelp, GasBuddy, or a charging station as an application when you are parked so that you can set your destination. Both Android Auto and CarPlay have rules when developing the app that emphasize minimal driver distraction. Games don't qualify.

Just remember, many features that we take for granted nowadays were once considered "techno gizmos" such as intermittent wipers, cruise control, anti-lock brakes, and even FM radios. These features started out on the luxury models, but tricked down to basic models. Some of the technology has evolved and improved (car CD changer in the trunk, anyone?). While I have some good memories of the first vehicles that I drove, I remember also the lower fuel economy of those vehicles or the limitations imposed by the technology at the time, including remembering to take with me the faceplate of my radio to avoid it getting stolen.

Line in infamy moment (which I'll probably regret one day): Teslas aren't real cars. They're expensive appliances that look like cars, but designed, sold, and maintained by the standards and attitudes of a cell phone provider.

Overpriced junk that's undeniably ahead of it's time; but with a terrible half-life and limited aftermarket support.

Big boom big boom big boom.

It would have cost too much to replace the batteries on that Tesla. In addition, there is no Carplay, Android Auto, or Alexa support on even the newest Teslas. This is especially surprising since they are supposed to be the most "technologically advanced" vehicles.

I've officially retired my 2000 Toyota Tacoma. Applied for a junk title last week so I won't have to pay taxes on it any more. The frame has rusted to the point that you can visibly see how the vehicle dips between the cab and the bed.

It has 230K miles on it and about the only things I ever had to replace on it were the starter and the power steering pump.

You can probably give it to charity and take the tax write-off. That's what I did with my mothers 20yo car a few years ago because the seals were all corroded and fluids were leaking.

[vdeane]

Speaking of transmissions, the 1997 Accord my Mom and I had included a first model hydraulic clutch.  Given that it was a manual, this was very not fun, especially in traffic.  The timing was a nightmare and it was stiff enough to hurt if it had to be held down for any length of time.  That vehicle is why I cannot imagine buying a car without a test drive first (a mistake my parents made when buying it; they did test drive a manual Accord, but not that specific one, and their clutches behaved vastly differently).

Meanwhile, those of us who prefer to buy cars and not techno gizmos on wheels like that they're not "advancing" like everyone else. Touchscreens aren't exactly safe to use while driving either, no idea why they're all the rage right now.

Per this article:

On March 31, 2014, the U.S. Department of Transportation (USDOT) and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) declared that by May 1, 2018, all cars, SUVs, trucks and vans would be required to have rear-view visibility systems.

You might as well include passive information on that screen. Also, having the Bluetooth connection allows not only for hands-free mobile phone operation, but also for mobile audio such as a audiobook or my own tunes. This beats what passes for terrestrial radio nowadays.

I am also challenged on what additional applications are needed beyond a navigation application and an audio application. (OK, add in a voice recognition app so that I can say "Ok Google, open the pod bay doors" to open up the garage door and deactivate the alarm system.) I can understand wanting to have Yelp, GasBuddy, or a charging station as an application when you are parked so that you can set your destination. Both Android Auto and CarPlay have rules when developing the app that emphasize minimal driver distraction. Games don't qualify.

Just remember, many features that we take for granted nowadays were once considered "techno gizmos" such as intermittent wipers, cruise control, anti-lock brakes, and even FM radios. These features started out on the luxury models, but tricked down to basic models. Some of the technology has evolved and improved (car CD changer in the trunk, anyone?). While I have some good memories of the first vehicles that I drove, I remember also the lower fuel economy of those vehicles or the limitations imposed by the technology at the time, including remembering to take with me the faceplate of my radio to avoid it getting stolen.

As I mentioned, by 2014 Civic has a backup camera and no touchscreen.  Clearly a backup camera does not make a touchscreen mandatory.  The screen does do other things, too - it also has the clock, odometer, trip odometers, temperature, radio display, and it also is used to display full-screen messages (such as the door ajar message, or the TPMS system) and to navigate the settings menu using the buttons on the steering wheel.

I don't use navigation and have no intention of ever doing so (as you can probably guess, I am very much not on board with the efforts to make cars self-driving, and I want to keep driving myself; if I could, I'd put in place a law making it illegal to manufacture cars that don't have a manual driving mode or for states or anyone else to designate certain roads as self-driving only); unfortunately, EVs kinda need some form of in-car navigation due to battery preconditioning for charging, so it looks like some form of self-driving functionality will be shoved down our throats whether we want it or not (that plus safety mandates).  I'm also not on board with the way the tech industry is taking things and the trend to devices trying to predict what you want rather than letting you be in full control (it's the reason I don't use Windows at home any more).  How I interact with technology hasn't substantially changed in over a decade; even my smartphone is just a supplement to the way I've done things for years, not a replacement.

I have an aux cable for when I want to stream audio in the car, but I haven't in years (after deciding that I liked hearing just the sound of the road when I travel out of radio range; it's since become associated with roadtrips), though I still keep a copy of my music library on my phone and the cable in the car just in case, though I need to figure out how the playlist functionality on VLC's mobile app works.  I know enough about privacy/security (and the lack thereof on car software) to be leery of connecting my phone via any means that can exchange data.  Plus the in-car system for playing music from an iPod on my Mom's 2009 Civic was absolute garbage, and I'm in no mood for a repeat.

[Duke87]

The biggest issue i have with Tesla is they take 60 minutes to fully charge even at the newest V3 Superchargers.  There are cases where you will want to fully charge your EV especially in the middle of winter when you only get half of the estimated range to begin with... batteries just plain suck in the cold.  Taking 3 minutes to fill up my gas tank vs. 60 minutes to charge the EV... that additional 57 minutes is too much of an inconvenience for me personally but to each their own.

This isn't an issue with Tesla, it's a limitation of lithium-ion battery technology as it currently exists. Notice how if you plug your phone in when the battery is low it... takes an hour (maybe a little more) to charge. This isn't a coincidence. Try to charge a battery too fast and you risk physically damaging it, in the worst case scenario triggering thermal runaway which will result in whatever you were trying to charge getting burnt to a crisp. How fast you can safely charge a battery from empty to full varies depending on the type of battery, but with lithium-ion the limit is about an hour and nothing currently available for common consumer use allows for any faster.

That said, yes, Tesla vehicles do also have design shortcomings... stemming largely from institutional differences. Every other automaker has close to if not over a century of experience making cars, and usually tends to have a culture of "if it works, don't fuck with it", at least when it comes to anything critical. Tesla, meanwhile, is still very new at this in comparison... and at their core they're a tech company, not a car company, which means they have an institutional culture of "fuck with everything, we want to be flashy, new, and different". This results in them having some genuinely good ideas (who needs car dealerships anyway?) but also some horrible ones (when a vehicle's battery dies, the wheels locking with no way for the driver to manually unlock them turns the car needlessly into a potentially dangerous obstacle on the road)

[Takumi]

My old Lexus GS300 had some electrical problems that were the result of an accident from the previous owner, but otherwise the only mechanical issue I had with it was the fuel pump going out. That was a simple fix, surprisingly, only taking about half an hour for the whole job. Other than that it was just normal 250,000 mile car things. The Aristo that replaced it has been much more problematic despite having a third of the mileage. A lot of early 90s Toyotas and Lexi, particularly rear-drive ones, have ECU problems starting around 25-30 years of age. Mine is 29, so it's right there. Replacing the capacitors in the ECU is supposed to fix the problem, as rolling the dice with used ones on eBay has netted me one that sends fuel to one cylinder constantly and one that started to show signs of failure 2 weeks after installing it. The only remaining ones are overseas and rebuilding one of the ones I have already is cheaper than their asking prices.

[ZLoth]

Every other automaker has close to if not over a century of experience making cars, and usually tends to have a culture of "if it works, don't fuck with it", at least when it comes to anything critical.

It's a two-edged sword with the current car manufacturing process. There is validity in the argument "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", but that has lead to the reliance on the older components... those same components that are now in short supply and have caused the price of both new and used vehicles to shoot through the roof. I get it... the vehicles have to be designed to survive the hot Phoenix summers and the bone-chilling Michigan winters. But, it shouldn't feel like the current car technology is designed for the older Android phone that I'm shipping back this afternoon as a trade in.

The car makers can only dedicate so much of a car "budget" on a car infoentertainment system. And, yes, it shows with some of the car manufacturer internally-developed apps. When the powers that be look at the car consumer as yet another recurring revenue stream instead of bundling the feature into the price of the car, the consumer gets nickeled and dimed. Many people just consider their vehicles to be their daily driver with maybe a occasional out of town trip.

[Takumi]

Oh look, Tesla is having a safety recall.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-recalls-over-475000-electric-vehicles-2021-12-30/

[Max Rockatansky]

Oh look, Tesla is having a safety recall.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-recalls-over-475000-electric-vehicles-2021-12-30/

Over a rear view camera?  That's weak sauce by recall standards.

[vdeane]

The biggest issue i have with Tesla is they take 60 minutes to fully charge even at the newest V3 Superchargers.  There are cases where you will want to fully charge your EV especially in the middle of winter when you only get half of the estimated range to begin with... batteries just plain suck in the cold.  Taking 3 minutes to fill up my gas tank vs. 60 minutes to charge the EV... that additional 57 minutes is too much of an inconvenience for me personally but to each their own.

This isn't an issue with Tesla, it's a limitation of lithium-ion battery technology as it currently exists. Notice how if you plug your phone in when the battery is low it... takes an hour (maybe a little more) to charge. This isn't a coincidence. Try to charge a battery too fast and you risk physically damaging it, in the worst case scenario triggering thermal runaway which will result in whatever you were trying to charge getting burnt to a crisp. How fast you can safely charge a battery from empty to full varies depending on the type of battery, but with lithium-ion the limit is about an hour and nothing currently available for common consumer use allows for any faster.

That said, yes, Tesla vehicles do also have design shortcomings... stemming largely from institutional differences. Every other automaker has close to if not over a century of experience making cars, and usually tends to have a culture of "if it works, don't fuck with it", at least when it comes to anything critical. Tesla, meanwhile, is still very new at this in comparison... and at their core they're a tech company, not a car company, which means they have an institutional culture of "fuck with everything, we want to be flashy, new, and different". This results in them having some genuinely good ideas (who needs car dealerships anyway?) but also some horrible ones (when a vehicle's battery dies, the wheels locking with no way for the driver to manually unlock them turns the car needlessly into a potentially dangerous obstacle on the road)

And even Tesla's direct sale model exposed benefits to the dealer model.  If you want a new ICE car, you go to the dealer, test drive something from the lot, and if you like it, you buy it and have the ability to trade in your car (even if you don't get much money, it's useful for not having to figure out the logistics of getting rid of it).  Not so with Tesla.  Even if you live somewhere with a sales center and can test drive something, that's not the car you're buying.  You then get directed to the online order portal where you order a custom-made car and then wait weeks/months/years for it to be assembled.  And because of Tesla's QA/QC issues, you don't know what you're going to get.  If there's a significant issue(s) (there will be minor issues because it's Tesla...), then it needs to be taken back for service, and that can be another few weeks/months, during which you're dealing with Tesla's abysmal customer service.

Which brings me to the other advantage of dealers.  With dealers, if one of them has bad customer service or rips people off, you can go to another dealer.  With Tesla, your only choice is to never buy a Tesla car again (perhaps even getting rid of your current one with explosives).  That's compounded by the fact that other automakers and charging networks haven't figured things out as well.  If you want an EV and like long roadtrips (or even if you don't but don't have home charging) but hate Tesla, you're kinda screwed right now.

To take a brief moment on charging speed, it's worth noting that charging even that fast or to 100% with regularity is not good for the battery.  As such, those who need to rely on charge stations are wearing out their batteries faster than those who don't.

[formulanone]

Oh look, Tesla is having a safety recall.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-recalls-over-475000-electric-vehicles-2021-12-30/

Over a rear view camera?  That’s weak sauce by recall standards.

You never know, there's the chance that affects something with drivability.

That's not to say other manufacturers do not issue recalls or campaigns to replace items which do not necessarily affect drivability nor safety. But usually that's because lots of people have either complained of the problem, and there was no fix, or duplication of the concern was previously idiopathic*. The fact that there's no repair ready until February may mean it has to go into the Recall phase (usually NHTSA initiated) rather than Campaign (manufacturer-inspired). This occurs with all sorts of brands.


* of all the increasingly obnoxious jargon that's floating around, this is actually one of my favorite of the last decade

[Rothman]

* of all the increasingly obnoxious jargon that's floating around, this is actually one of my favorite of the last decade

A term used very frequently by defense lawyers in toxic tort claims...

[Takumi]

Oh look, Tesla is having a safety recall.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-recalls-over-475000-electric-vehicles-2021-12-30/

Over a rear view camera?  That’s weak sauce by recall standards.

Also the part about trunk latches not working properly.

[Max Rockatansky]

Oh look, Tesla is having a safety recall.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-recalls-over-475000-electric-vehicles-2021-12-30/

Over a rear view camera?  That's weak sauce by recall standards.

Also the part about trunk latches not working properly.

Still, that's not major enough to not classify as anything but a run of the mill recall.  Exploding Pinto this isn't.