When do you plan to switch to an EV?

[1995hoo]

I read an article a year or two ago about people in Los Angeles who leased (Honda didn't "sell" the cars) hydrogen fuel cell vehicles Honda produced. The article said the customers almost universally regretted doing it because the infrastructure simply doesn't exist in any adequate way and they wind up leaving the vehicles parked at home more often than not.

Too bad, because apparently the Wankel engine does very well with hydrogen.

[Dirt Roads]

Or maybe I'm just thinking of Doc Brown's plutonium pellets for his flux capacitor.  Until the Mr. Fusion comes along, of course.

Ahh, Helium-3 (³He).  If only we could get to Saturn and back with a dirigible.

[vdeane]

Hydrogen isn't like Doc Brown's plutonium - it's basically like pumping gas (well, more like compressed natural gas than gasoline), but building those stations is more expensive than building a gas station, introducing a nasty catch 22 problem (it makes no sense to build a refueling station for cars nobody drives, but nobody's going to buy a car they can't refuel).  EVs don't have that issue since homeowners with driveways/garages who don't take long trips in that car don't need there to be any external infrastructure to support they car - they can just buy a charge port (which Tesla is happy to sell) and install it to charge off their own power.  Then there's the additional issue that hydrogen is made from either electrolysis of water (energy intensive) or from natural gas (kinda defeating the point), which made the climate activists not supportive of it.  Combine all this with Tesla making a big splash with EVs, and that pretty much killed off the idea of using hydrogen for personal cars.

[kkt]

In high school our teacher said something about hydrogen is a very small molecule, so seals that are watertight and airtight may still leak hydrogen.  Hard to work with, and when it leaks it tends to explode.

[Rothman]

In high school our teacher said something about hydrogen is a very small molecule, so seals that are watertight and airtight may still leak hydrogen.  Hard to work with, and when it leaks it tends to explode.

Pfft.  Only when exposed to a spark.

[kalvado]

In high school our teacher said something about hydrogen is a very small molecule, so seals that are watertight and airtight may still leak hydrogen.  Hard to work with, and when it leaks it tends to explode.

Absolutely true. It can qlso.leak straight through certain metals 
And nasty thing about hydrogen fires - flame is almost invisible. You can literally walk into the flame not noticing anything until there are severe burns. One of recommended strategies is to wave a wooden stick as you walk- if it starts burning, something must be wrong.
You can look up some hydrogen fire videos on YouTube.
There was a lot of work in Hydrogen sensors to make things better. I am still not very impressed with potential safety issues

[kalvado]

In high school our teacher said something about hydrogen is a very small molecule, so seals that are watertight and airtight may still leak hydrogen.  Hard to work with, and when it leaks it tends to explode.

Pfft.  Only when exposed to a spark.

There are lots of small sparks around. Electrostatic, wall switches, loose wiring, motors engaging and disconnecting, steel scraping on sand or concrete.
Those are small things which don't normally have any consequences...

[Scott5114]

Oh, the humanity!

[Dirt Roads]

Ouch.  For those unaware, an old-fashioned fusion reactor takes a major heat source (let's say powered by plutonium) to fuse hydrogen molecules together.  This has the problem that both the heat source (plutonium) and the raw material (hydrogen) release major quantities of deadly radiation in the process.   Helium-3 (³He) can be subject to the nuclear fusion process without the deadly radiation.  Hopefully, Doc Brown took that into consideration when using plutonium pellets and the flux capacitor in the Mr. Fusion machine.

Indeed, this is all way off topic of the hydrogen fuel cell technology.  At some point in time, we will progress beyond the use of highly flammable hydrogen as the anode fuel source.  Until then, we will be dealing with the impact of strip mining all of the lithium and manganese dioxide needed to create EV batteries (which are also quite flammable, but not as explosive). 

As stated before, my primary interest in EV technology involves the use of hybrid combustion power (preferably diesel) as a backup source for generating 240VAC as house power in the case of emergencies.  The additional cost of the EV battery (ergo, an $80K pickup truck) is simply not justified when only useful for transportation.  Not surprisingly, there have been a number of articles promoting the use of hybrid cars and trucks for this use during the past week or so.   I would definitely utilize EV mode when driving in urban settings, and might even be motivated to avoid using the ICE (internal combustion engine) on longer trips (although the hybrid mode would be awfully tempting when time is tight).

[Dirt Roads]

^^^
On the flip side of that discussion, you'all should keep an eye out for the Tesla battery/inverter combos being promoted for solar panel systems.  Right now, that is just a tad expensive for powering a full-sized house with a well pump, but the numbers are really close to making sense for a tiny house with a well pump, or alternatively a workshop with a well pump.  But you still need a backup power source for a full-sized house.  Generac (and a few other suppliers) also make some combination battery/inverter that simplify the puzzle.

[Jim]

I thought it was pretty clear I was not serious about plutonium or fusion!

[kalvado]

Ouch.  For those unaware, an old-fashioned fusion reactor takes a major heat source (let's say powered by plutonium) to fuse hydrogen molecules together.  This has the problem that both the heat source (plutonium) and the raw material (hydrogen) release major quantities of deadly radiation in the process.   Helium-3 (³He) can be subject to the nuclear fusion process without the deadly radiation.  Hopefully, Doc Brown took that into consideration when using plutonium pellets and the flux capacitor in the Mr. Fusion machine.

Indeed, this is all way off topic of the hydrogen fuel cell technology.  At some point in time, we will progress beyond the use of highly flammable hydrogen as the anode fuel source.  Until then, we will be dealing with the impact of strip mining all of the lithium and manganese dioxide needed to create EV batteries (which are also quite flammable, but not as explosive). 

As stated before, my primary interest in EV technology involves the use of hybrid combustion power (preferably diesel) as a backup source for generating 240VAC as house power in the case of emergencies.  The additional cost of the EV battery (ergo, an $80K pickup truck) is simply not justified when only useful for transportation.  Not surprisingly, there have been a number of articles promoting the use of hybrid cars and trucks for this use during the past week or so.   I would definitely utilize EV mode when driving in urban settings, and might even be motivated to avoid using the ICE (internal combustion engine) on longer trips (although the hybrid mode would be awfully tempting when time is tight).

Old fashioned fusion.... How life is in 22nd century?  Did you got covid under control?

[Max Rockatansky]

I thought it was pretty clear I was not serious about plutonium or fusion!

I don't think most of were mistaking you for a Kernals12 thread.

[Duke87]

^ Exactly what my thoughts are. Sadly it seems automakers are pivoting to pure EVs. I saw recently Hyundai completely disbanded their internal combustion engineering team in favor of EVs. I think the problem with plug-in hybrids is that the task of fitting a battery, electric motors, an engine, and a fuel tank means that the car does not have the seating and cargo capacity of a gas or electric car.

I don't think that's really it. Plug-in hybrids have been made before (see for example the Chevy Volt), the space issue is resolved by having a battery that's larger than a regular hybrid's battery but still much smaller than a full EV's battery. Maybe you size it to offer ~50 miles of electric range, which is sufficient to cover most commutes or local errands.

The big thing I see going on here is that plug-in hybrids, while perhaps practical in concept, are something the market doesn't really currently have a niche for. Anyone willing and able to shell out for an electric powertrain right now most likely is not terribly concerned about the practical limitations of them and just wants the sexy factor of being able to say "I drive an electric car!", which they don't really get to say if it still has a gas tank. Indeed, smug EV owners look down their noses at plug-in hybrids.
Meanwhile if you are concerned about the practical limitations of an EV, you're probably just going to buy a gasoline-powered car since it will be substantially less expensive than a plug-in hybrid with no real loss in functionality or convenience.

Also, to a significant degree automakers going all-in on full EV development is political. There are regulatory edicts from several jurisdictions around the world that come 20XX all new vehicles shalt be completely zero-emissions. A plug-in hybrid, because it still consumes gasoline, is not compliant with most of these edicts as currently written. Companies based in jurisdictions that have issued such edicts will, in order to play nice, at least publicly present the image that their product offerings will comply completely by the stated deadline (what's actually being done behind the scenes may be a different matter).

[kernals12]

I read an article a year or two ago about people in Los Angeles who leased (Honda didn't "sell" the cars) hydrogen fuel cell vehicles Honda produced. The article said the customers almost universally regretted doing it because the infrastructure simply doesn't exist in any adequate way and they wind up leaving the vehicles parked at home more often than not.

Too bad, because apparently the Wankel engine does very well with hydrogen.

A shitty engine goes well with a shitty fuel

[Max Rockatansky]

I read an article a year or two ago about people in Los Angeles who leased (Honda didn't "sell" the cars) hydrogen fuel cell vehicles Honda produced. The article said the customers almost universally regretted doing it because the infrastructure simply doesn't exist in any adequate way and they wind up leaving the vehicles parked at home more often than not.

Too bad, because apparently the Wankel engine does very well with hydrogen.

A shitty engine goes well with a shitty fuel

But the fuel in question "hydrogen" doesn't really cause much a pollution issue then fuel economy doesn't really matter all that much as an environmental problem. 

[Big John]

An issue with hydrogen cells is that emits water in the reaction.  The vehicle may not carry that waste water so it may dribble onto the pavement - not good in the winter.

[kalvado]

An issue with hydrogen cells is that emits water in the reaction.  The vehicle may not carry that waste water so it may dribble onto the pavement - not good in the winter.

Did you ever see condensation coming out of a tailpipe?

[Rothman]

An issue with hydrogen cells is that emits water in the reaction.  The vehicle may not carry that waste water so it may dribble onto the pavement - not good in the winter.

Did you ever see condensation coming out of a tailpipe?

Have you ever been in a Turkish prison?

[kalvado]

An issue with hydrogen cells is that emits water in the reaction.  The vehicle may not carry that waste water so it may dribble onto the pavement - not good in the winter.

Did you ever see condensation coming out of a tailpipe?

Have you ever been in a Turkish prison?

No, but I heard that it is even worse than education delivered in US schools.
BTW what is the membrane temperature these days? It was pretty hot when Apollo-13 tried to make fuel cells unpopular.
Fun fact: driver exhales about 1% of overall moisture emitted from the car during winter driving.

PS other than schools, it's all totally relevant to fuel cells topic. I didn't quite get the reference to prisons, though.

[1995hoo]

I read an article a year or two ago about people in Los Angeles who leased (Honda didn't "sell" the cars) hydrogen fuel cell vehicles Honda produced. The article said the customers almost universally regretted doing it because the infrastructure simply doesn't exist in any adequate way and they wind up leaving the vehicles parked at home more often than not.

Too bad, because apparently the Wankel engine does very well with hydrogen.

A shitty engine goes well with a shitty fuel

Have you ever owned a car with a Wankel?

[Max Rockatansky]

An issue with hydrogen cells is that emits water in the reaction.  The vehicle may not carry that waste water so it may dribble onto the pavement - not good in the winter.

Did you ever see condensation coming out of a tailpipe?

Have you ever been in a Turkish prison?

Are you into Greco Roman Wrestling?

[Rothman]

An issue with hydrogen cells is that emits water in the reaction.  The vehicle may not carry that waste water so it may dribble onto the pavement - not good in the winter.

Did you ever see condensation coming out of a tailpipe?

Have you ever been in a Turkish prison?

Are you into Greco Roman Wrestling?

Do you like movies about gladiators?

[Max Rockatansky]

An issue with hydrogen cells is that emits water in the reaction.  The vehicle may not carry that waste water so it may dribble onto the pavement - not good in the winter.

Did you ever see condensation coming out of a tailpipe?

Have you ever been in a Turkish prison?

Are you into Greco Roman Wrestling?

Do you like movies about gladiators?

You ever see a grown man naked?

[JayhawkCO]

Mercedes just released specs for their new car with a 600+ mile range on one charge.

https://electrek.co/2022/01/03/mercedes-benz-unveils-vision-eqxx-prototype-with-over-620-mile-range-impressive-drag-coefficient-and-a-solar-roof/