NY 17/"I-86"

[JayhawkCO]

They use consultants for the data set...

Walks like a duck... talks like a duck...

Chris

[empirestate]

Exit 131 reconstruction is probably part of what will make it Interstate compliant...

Exit 131 improvements were part of the list of prioritized conversion projects from now over 10 years ago.

And of course, NY 17 will still exist at Exit 131, which would supposedly become its terminus.

[hbelkins]

There are tons of I-86 markers along intersecting routes north of Middletown. What looks to be a backwards interstate sign is mounted over them. I've often wondered if those are true blanks, or if there's a number on the other side -- and if so, what that number is.

It seems to me that it would take just as much effort to go and remove the bolted-on covers as it would to install new I-86 signage, and the existing signage may have deteriorated or become damaged during the time it was covered. So I wonder why they just didn't leave a blank space on the posts and install the I-86 signage later.

When the new section of US 219 opened north of Elkins, blank posts were placed in spots for the US 48 signage that was installed years later. But they did not  leave space on the overheads where 219 departs the Corridor H expressway, so they had to move the existing route markers (thank goodness for demountable copy) to make room for US 48 -- or in some cases, just mount the US 48 signage independently on the gantry supports.

[hbelkins]

Even NYSDOT shows it as I-86 also.



Chris

They use consultants for the data set...

That looks like a Google map.

[machias]

I still don't understand why they just don't mark the portions built to interstate standards as I-86, and the parts that are not up to interstate standards "To I-86". I doubt drivers are going to be confused.

[ran4sh]

One of the Interstate standards is that the road continues as standard quality all the way to a logical point such as an urban area or Interstate junction. It would not be compliant to post the road as Interstate for short segments and non-interstate for other segments.

[vdeane]

Even NYSDOT shows it as I-86 also.



Chris

Only the 511 data is from NYS.  The basemap is just Google Maps.

I still don't understand why they just don't mark the portions built to interstate standards as I-86, and the parts that are not up to interstate standards "To I-86". I doubt drivers are going to be confused.

I suspect that was indeed the plan for Middletown, given that it's complete with end signs.  I'm not sure why designation was never pursued, but the fact that NY shifted to preservation-first and Cuomo wasn't on board with the project probably played a part.  I'm not sure what the deal with US 220-NY 26 is, but it might be similar reasons combined with not wanting a 10 mile gap.  The other section that's interstate standards is Roscoe-Liberty, but it's disconnected from the rest of the interstate system.

I don't recall if this was posted before, but the PEL study for the widening has some interesting interchange concepts for Rapp Road east: https://www.dot.ny.gov/portal/page/portal/content/delivery/region8/projects/806509-Home/806509-Repository/8065.09_PEL%20Report%20Draft_Attachment%203_Appendix%20A_Sept2021.pdf

Additionally, exit 105 is being replaced with a diamond: https://www.dot.ny.gov/portal/page/portal/content/delivery/region9/projects/901339-Home/901339-Repository/901339_ProjectPresentation_10072021.pdf

[Alps]

One of the Interstate standards is that the road continues as standard quality all the way to a logical point such as an urban area or Interstate junction. It would not be compliant to post the road as Interstate for short segments and non-interstate for other segments.

It would be fine to use "TO" shields.

[cl94]

IINM, the main issue between Roscoe and 84 at this point is Rock Hill. And indeed, there have been plans to rebuild that area...which were killed in the past by NIMBYs and business interests. West of Roscoe to Hancock is mostly nonexistent accel/decel lanes.

It should be mentioned that there is a decent likelihood that 17 will be reconstructed and possibly widened east of Middletown and possibly as far west as Monticello within the coming years. This project is a priority for the Senate delegation and Orange County, particularly with Legoland opening. That would knock out the remaining problem spots east of Middletown and possibly most of the remaining spots into Sullivan County.

[Rothman]

Yeah, Legoland has caused some weird things to happen.

[TheDon102]

Genuinely asking but is legoland that big of a deal? I mean its not disneyworld right? I'm surprised that we might actually get a widening because of that development

[jp the roadgeek]

Would be a lot less confusing if the designation didn't disappear between the Waverly dip and I-81.  At least you'd have an uninterrupted route west of Exit 79. 

[cl94]

Genuinely asking but is legoland that big of a deal? I mean its not disneyworld right? I'm surprised that we might actually get a widening because of that development

A widening was warranted before Legoland. It's the busiest 4-lane freeway in the state north of the Cross Westchester and busier than any 4-lane segment of the Thruway.

[webny99]

Genuinely asking but is legoland that big of a deal? I mean its not disneyworld right? I'm surprised that we might actually get a widening because of that development

A widening was warranted before Legoland. It's the busiest 4-lane freeway in the state north of the Cross Westchester and busier than any 4-lane segment of the Thruway.

It certainly needs widening at least to Middletown, if not Bloomingburg. Volumes are above 60K on much of that stretch.

But it's not quite the busiest in the state north of I-287.. a couple sections of I-190 (South Grand Island Bridges and south of Hertel Ave) and I-490 between Exits 25 and 26 have the edge there.

[hbelkins]

One of the Interstate standards is that the road continues as standard quality all the way to a logical point such as an urban area or Interstate junction. It would not be compliant to post the road as Interstate for short segments and non-interstate for other segments.

It would be fine to use "TO" shields.

Or "Future?"

North Carolina's Future I-26 signage used the traditional RWB shield-shaped marker, but without the word "Interstate" in the red portion.

Kentucky has used a full interstate marker in a green sign with "Future I-66 Corridor" or "Future I-69 Corridor" text.

[machias]

One of the Interstate standards is that the road continues as standard quality all the way to a logical point such as an urban area or Interstate junction. It would not be compliant to post the road as Interstate for short segments and non-interstate for other segments.

It would be fine to use "TO" shields.

Or "Future?"

North Carolina's Future I-26 signage used the traditional RWB shield-shaped marker, but without the word "Interstate" in the red portion.

Kentucky has used a full interstate marker in a green sign with "Future I-66 Corridor" or "Future I-69 Corridor" text.

There's probably a few ancient "Future Interstate 86" signs left along the corridor from 20 years ago, but they should just post Future 86 markers as you described. Or "To 86". If folks survived with gaps in the interstate system while it was being built in the 50s and 60s, I'm sure they can deal with a few gaps in one interstate in one state without driving off the road.

[empirestate]

Genuinely asking but is legoland that big of a deal? I mean its not disneyworld right? I'm surprised that we might actually get a widening because of that development

A widening was warranted before Legoland. It's the busiest 4-lane freeway in the state north of the Cross Westchester and busier than any 4-lane segment of the Thruway.

Yes, and also yes. Legoland, relative to its location, is a comparatively big draw, at least for folks from elsewhere in the region. (Now, how does it stack up against other theme parks, purely as an attraction? We can get into that another time...)

And in addition, NY 17 was already underpowered and is best avoided at certain times of the day/week. Orange County, in general, suffers from a type of exurban congestion that's noticeably distinct (from, say, Dutchess County), but a little hard to describe.

[vdeane]

Looks like this project has government support again.  I found this in Hochul's policy book released with the state of the state:

Strategic   investments   in   the   Mid-Hudson   Valley   have   resulted   in   the   expansion   of   
Woodbury   Common   and   the   construction   of   Legoland   and   the   Resorts   World   
Catskills   Casino.   Over   the   past   several   years,   projects   have   been   completed   by   
NYSDOT to   upgrade   sections   of   Route   17,   including   reconstruction   of   the   
interchange   at   Exit   131,   where   Route   17   meets   Interstate   87   and Route   32   
(Woodbury   Common),   and   reconstruction   of   Exits   122   and   125   (Legoland)   to   meet   
interstate   standards.   To   facilitate   future   economic   competitiveness   and   alleviate   
congestion   within   the   region,   the   State   will   begin   an   environmental   review   to   assess   
the   conversion   of   the   full   Route   17   corridor   in   Orange   and   Sullivan   counties   to   
Interstate   86.

[Rothman]

Looks like this project has government support again.  I found this in Hochul's policy book released with the state of the state:

StrategicinvestmentsintheMid-HudsonValleyhaveresultedintheexpansionof
WoodburyCommonandtheconstructionofLegolandandtheResortsWorld
CatskillsCasino.Overthepastseveralyears,projectshavebeencompletedby
NYSDOT toupgradesectionsofRoute17,includingreconstructionofthe
interchangeatExit131,whereRoute17meetsInterstate87and Route32
(WoodburyCommon),andreconstructionofExits122and125(Legoland)tomeet
interstatestandards.Tofacilitatefutureeconomiccompetitivenessandalleviate
congestionwithintheregion,theStatewillbeginanenvironmentalreviewtoassess
theconversionofthefullRoute17corridorinOrangeandSullivancountiesto
Interstate86.

That's like saying Cuomo supported the Rooftop.

[seicer]

Well, from Roscoe east, then. I'd be fine if there were two disconnected I-86 segments with "TO" banners in between. Not that much different than when I was on the West Virginia Turnpike in the 1980s when it was signed with "TO" I-64/77.

[Henry]

From https://www.dot.ny.gov/portal/page/portal/content/delivery/region8/projects/806509-Home/806509-Repository/Rt17PEL_NYSDOT%20Public%20Workshop%202_FINAL_0.pdf

"Don't name the highway for anyone's relative"

You mean, not the Andrew Cuomo Expressway?

If that means we can get a 6 lane freeway to monticello, and NY 17 fully converted to interstate standards, I'll gladly be in favor of the renaming it all to the Andrew M. Cuomo Expressway 

In IL, the equivalent would be the Rod Blagojevich Expressway/Freeway, though I will agree that what Cuomo did was far more despicable than anything Blago ever did (but he got sentenced, while Cuomo didn't, so what does that tell us?).

Back to the subject at hand: By the time I-86 is completed, the current 50-and-over crowd will be dead, and their kids/grandkids will probably not care about it then. Just my two cents...

[MATraveler128]

Does New York have plans in the next few years to upgrade NY 17 between Deposit and Hancock?

[vdeane]

Looks like this project has government support again.  I found this in Hochul's policy book released with the state of the state:

StrategicinvestmentsintheMid-HudsonValleyhaveresultedintheexpansionof
WoodburyCommonandtheconstructionofLegolandandtheResortsWorld
CatskillsCasino.Overthepastseveralyears,projectshavebeencompletedby
NYSDOT toupgradesectionsofRoute17,includingreconstructionofthe
interchangeatExit131,whereRoute17meetsInterstate87and Route32
(WoodburyCommon),andreconstructionofExits122and125(Legoland)tomeet
interstatestandards.Tofacilitatefutureeconomiccompetitivenessandalleviate
congestionwithintheregion,theStatewillbeginanenvironmentalreviewtoassess
theconversionofthefullRoute17corridorinOrangeandSullivancountiesto
Interstate86.

That's like saying Cuomo supported the Rooftop.

The widening project could potentially take care of a lot of it.  There's only a few interchanges in Liberty between the portion that already meets interstate standards and the limits of the widening PEL study.  The widening effort also has significant support, including Senator Chuck Schumer and the 17 Forward 86 Coalition.  I could see it going either way.

Well, from Roscoe east, then. I'd be fine if there were two disconnected I-86 segments with "TO" banners in between. Not that much different than when I was on the West Virginia Turnpike in the 1980s when it was signed with "TO" I-64/77.

It would actually make three, as US 220 to I-81 isn't actually I-86, and I-81 to NY 79 is.

Does New York have plans in the next few years to upgrade NY 17 between Deposit and Hancock?

I'm not aware of Windsor to Roscoe being on any agenda at this time.  It's not just the at-grades; the freeway sections on either side of Hale Eddy don't meet modern interstate standards.

[cl94]

The widening project (strongly supported by Schumer) would indeed cover most of the territory listed here. Most of the rest of the road outside of Hale Eddy meets standards. Note that modern Interstate standards still allow for lower design standards in mountainous regions, which Hancock-Roscoe is close to meeting. A few improvements are necessary, but these are pretty minor compared to everything else.

TBH, nothing between Windsor and Roscoe really needs an upgrade. It serves the traffic it gets just fine and there's a legitimate argument to be made that upgrading Hale Eddy might kill what remains of it. See how everything in Parksville closed after the bypass opened.

[Ketchup99]

I still don't understand why they just don't mark the portions built to interstate standards as I-86, and the parts that are not up to interstate standards "To I-86". I doubt drivers are going to be confused.

I don't understand why they don't call the whole thing I-86, Erie to Harriman. If we're being honest, who gives a shit? Your average driver won't see a little at-grade in Hale Eddy and start cursing up a storm about Interstate Highway standards and how they've been ripped off.