Harbor Freeway incorrectly signed in downtown LA (I-110 vs CA 110)

[TheStranger]

LOL...On the SB 110 at the 5, the overhead signs mention both CA 110 and US 101 for some odd reason.

It's CalTrans' long-standing logic of not always putting up a "TO" sign when it is warranted, even if implied.  With one, that would make way more sense.

Interestingly, in recent years, 101 on the southbound Santa Ana Freeway a few miles away has had its signage change from either "101/5" or "5 - Santa Ana" to the more accurate "101 TO 5/10/60".

[JustDrive]

LOL...On the SB 110 at the 5, the overhead signs mention both CA 110 and US 101 for some odd reason.

It's CalTrans' long-standing logic of not always putting up a "TO" sign when it is warranted, even if implied.  With one, that would make way more sense.

Interestingly, in recent years, 101 on the southbound Santa Ana Freeway a few miles away has had its signage change from either "101/5" or "5 - Santa Ana" to the more accurate "101 TO 5/10/60".

Northbound 110 at the Four Level also has "101 south TO 5 SOUTH 10 EAST 60."  Not to mention the "North 5" on the overhead sign next to the "North 110"

[emory]

LOL...On the SB 110 at the 5, the overhead signs mention both CA 110 and US 101 for some odd reason.

It's CalTrans' long-standing logic of not always putting up a "TO" sign when it is warranted, even if implied.  With one, that would make way more sense.

Interestingly, in recent years, 101 on the southbound Santa Ana Freeway a few miles away has had its signage change from either "101/5" or "5 - Santa Ana" to the more accurate "101 TO 5/10/60".

I'm so glad those signs went up on northbound 110. I've always hated the signs on that freeway identifying SB US 101 as I-5, since you can also get on I-10 and CA 60 heading that way. They still exist going south on the 110, and there's still one that exists northbound.

[J N Winkler]

With regard to freeway names, the four level divides Harbor from the Pasadena/Arroyo Seco, and it also divides Hollywood from the Santa Ana on the 101.

Actually, that is not strictly true.  The Four Level may well be the dividing point between the Harbor Freeway and Arroyo Seco Parkway, but the actual dividing line between the Hollywood and Santa Ana Freeways (as shown on Hollywood and Santa Ana Freeway construction plan set title sheets) is the Spring Street overcrossing, half a mile to the east.  Caltrans did not keep things simple in this case.

[Henry]

It's sort of expected, as I-110 and CA 110 can get away with coexisting, since they share the same freeway. Remember, no duplicate routes of any kind can exist in CA, except for the reason cited above; CA 15 in San Diego is signed that way because it's basically a future upgrade into I-15.

[TheStranger]

With regard to freeway names, the four level divides Harbor from the Pasadena/Arroyo Seco, and it also divides Hollywood from the Santa Ana on the 101.

Actually, that is not strictly true.  The Four Level may well be the dividing point between the Harbor Freeway and Arroyo Seco Parkway, but the actual dividing line between the Hollywood and Santa Ana Freeways (as shown on Hollywood and Santa Ana Freeway construction plan set title sheets) is the Spring Street overcrossing, half a mile to the east.  Caltrans did not keep things simple in this case.

Didn't that change over the years?  (It makes sense this was originally the case, since the Hollywood & Santa Ana freeways predated the four-level by some months.)

[myosh_tino]

Daniel Faigin's California Highways site (www.cahighways.org) also states that Route 110's interchange with US 101 as the "dividing line" between the Santa Ana and Hollywood freeways.

The segment of US 101 from the Route 5/Route 10/Route 60/US 101 to the "four-level" interchange (i.e., the Route 110/US 101 interchange) is named the "Santa Ana Freeway".
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Officially, the segment of US-101 from Route 110 to Route 134 is named the "Hollywood Freeway".

[J N Winkler]

Didn't that change over the years?  (It makes sense this was originally the case, since the Hollywood & Santa Ana freeways predated the four-level by some months.)

Daniel Faigin's California Highways site (www.cahighways.org) also states that Route 110's interchange with US 101 as the "dividing line" between the Santa Ana and Hollywood freeways.

The centerline of Spring Street as the divider between the Hollywood and Santa Ana Freeways is pretty well attested.  This (W.L. Fahey, "17 Contracts:  Hollywood Freeway Construction Under Way is Extensive and Varied," CHPW, May-June 1951, p. 17) is typical:

The Hollywood Freeway has been referred to as the backbone of the Los Angeles Metropolitan Freeway System.  It is a part of U.S. Highway 101, which through the Los Angeles Civic Center is called the "Santa Ana Freeway" from the center line of Spring Street easterly, while from this point westerly it has been given the glamorous title of "Hollywood Freeway."

In regard to what Faigin says, it falls within a section of his US 101 profile that deals with memorial highway and interchange designations, so it is possible a memorial designation of some kind is being talked about.  But Spring Street was definitely the easterly and southerly endpoint at the time the Hollywood Freeway was constructed, and remained so for as long as Caltrans continued to reference freeway names in route segment descriptions on plan set title sheets.  (The practice was abandoned sometime in the late 1950's or early 1960's.)

My understanding is that the Four Level structure itself was essentially complete before many of the ramps and connecting roadways were ready to open.  The dates I have are 1949 for Four Level structure plans, 1954 for full opening of structure and connecting roadways, and 1952 for completion of Hollywood Freeway to the Spring Street terminus.  The article quoted above includes an aerial photo showing eastbound traffic moving along the top of the Four Level (which carries the Hollywood Freeway) and being detoured onto Temple Street because only the overcrossings and some of the heavy grading had been completed further to the east.

[myosh_tino]

Daniel Faigin's California Highways site (www.cahighways.org) also states that Route 110's interchange with US 101 as the "dividing line" between the Santa Ana and Hollywood freeways.

The centerline of Spring Street as the divider between the Hollywood and Santa Ana Freeways is pretty well attested.  This (W.L. Fahey, "17 Contracts:  Hollywood Freeway Construction Under Way is Extensive and Varied," CHPW, May-June 1951, p. 17) is typical:

While Spring Street may have been the original dividing line, I found a 2008 document from Caltrans (http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/tsip/hseb/products/Named_Freeways.pdf) that confirms Daniel Faigin and TheStranger's contention that the dividing line is now Route 110.

[J N Winkler]

While Spring Street may have been the original dividing line, I found a 2008 document from Caltrans (http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/tsip/hseb/products/Named_Freeways.pdf) that confirms Daniel Faigin and TheStranger's contention that the dividing line is now Route 110.

You are talking about the listing on page 79 out of 219 in the PDF, right?

I have reservations about its reliability.  Yes, it is official in origin, but it is a digest, which introduces the possibility of compilation error.  The first part consists of a tabular listing in which the space allocated for each segment terminus identification is the size of a postage stamp.  The basis for the Hollywood Freeway name is given as "By Location," without a reference to an Assembly concurrent resolution or Commission action (as for the Riverside Freeway listed on the same page--commission action on October 22, 1957 in that case).  The eastern terminus is given as "I-110 4-level Interchange," and isn't the whole point of this thread that I-110 doesn't extend to the Four Level?

The explanation for the "Hollywood Freeway" name is given as follows (page 182 of 219 in the PDF):

Portions of Route 101 and Route 170 are named for their location near Hollywood in Los Angeles County.

I suspect that this listing was compiled by someone (possibly an intern) who did not refer to CHPW or as-built construction plans and thus was not aware that "Hollywood Freeway" was not only a customary usage (which seems to be the basis on which it has been included in this list), but also a length of relocated US 101 with (at least) a definite eastern terminus other than at the Four Level.

[TheStranger]

  The eastern terminus is given as "I-110 4-level Interchange," and isn't the whole point of this thread that I-110 doesn't extend to the Four Level?

Here's another way of looking at that question: Does CalTrans's definition of "I-110" agree with FHWA's?  After all, we already have the case of FHWA I-305 in Sacramento not corresponding to actual signage/route definition here, and signed I-80 in SF continuing to US 101 even though (I have always guessed this was a clerical error) the section from 101 to 4th Street has not been officially part of the Interstate system since 1968.

[agentsteel53]

the section from 101 to 4th Street has not been officially part of the Interstate system since 1968.

that actually makes sense from a navigational perspective.  why sign the route as "TO 80" when a) such signage would just confuse drivers, and b) the road is pretty comparable in quality to other interstates grandfathered into the system in the 1950s-60s. 

if we're gonna start demoting things from receiving interstate signage, I'd start with 238.  not because of the silly number, but because route continuity doesn't demand it: it can just as easily be signed as "to 580" and "to 880", comparable to CA-259 down south, as that's what drivers are taking it for anyway.

[TheStranger]

the section from 101 to 4th Street has not been officially part of the Interstate system since 1968.

that actually makes sense from a navigational perspective.  why sign the route as "TO 80" when a) such signage would just confuse drivers, and b) the road is pretty comparable in quality to other interstates grandfathered into the system in the 1950s-60s. 

ESPECIALLY since it had been signed as an Interstate from the beginning.  No reason to demote it over a funding technicality.

(And to this extent why I've always felt the most elegant solution for the Harbor Freeway in downtown LA is to just have I-110 signage northbound to 101, to match what has signed southbound for decades)

[J N Winkler]

I always thought the I-80 situation had to do with the special meaning "TO" has for Caltrans:  i.e., a route indication traditionally reserved for use to indicate the way to a freeway from a surface street or highway.  I would imagine something similar is going on with the Harbor Freeway since it sounds like the apparently wrongly placed I-110 shields are being used solely with pull-through meaning.

[TheStranger]

I always thought the I-80 situation had to do with the special meaning "TO" has for Caltrans:  i.e., a route indication traditionally reserved for use to indicate the way to a freeway from a surface street or highway.

Nope, I-80 pull-throughs all the way going eastbound.  Westbound, it was signed as I-80/US 101 in the 1980s (implied TO for US 101), then as just "US 101 San Jose" for a good while after that (I think after the furthest extent of the Central Freeway was razed), until the addition of exit numbers in the last five years clarified - somewhat - that westbound 80 after the Bay Bridge is not "US 101".

[silverback1065]

Why do some of these highways even exist?  why not just sign it all as i-110 or i-15?  there are several examples of this all over california

[NE2]

why not just sign it all as i-110?

Because Interstate standards.

[silverback1065]

do they plan on updating these roads to interstate standards?

[J N Winkler]

Nope.  In the case of the Arroyo Seco Parkway, which is shown in the picture NE2 posted, was called the Pasadena Freeway for 55 years before the original name was reinstated several years ago, and has had historic-landmark status for close to 15 years, upgrades to modern standards would totally destroy the historic features.

In the case of other California freeways which are more nearly Interstate-compatible, application of Interstate shields is in theory an option, but has little navigational value and would involve the creation of new two-digit routes (or anomalies like I-238) since the supply of spare three-digit designations is almost tapped out.

[agentsteel53]

upgrades to modern standards would totally destroy the historic features.

yes, like taking down all the early 1960s signs to replace them with retroreflective ones that say "Parkway".  because, apparently, California is swimming in cash.

[silverback1065]

upgrades to modern standards would totally destroy the historic features.

yes, like taking down all the early 1960s signs to replace them with retroreflective ones that say "Parkway".  because, apparently, California is swimming in cash.

What's so historic about it?

[agentsteel53]

What's so historic about it?

I believe one of the signs taken down (101 southbound approaching 110) was the last sign with 66 under a patch.

among other things.

[silverback1065]

Sounds like a weak excuse to me, but after looking at it, it is definitely not up to interstate code, I'm sure it would be very expensive to upgrade.

[NE2]

I think he's asking what's historic about the road. Use the Goog.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arroyo_Seco_Parkway

[silverback1065]

I think he's asking what's historic about the road. Use the Goog.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arroyo_Seco_Parkway

o ok that's a good reason then!  I didn't know that about that highway.  Were there ever any plans to connect it to i-210?