This is true? - Geographic oddities that defy conventional wisdom

[PColumbus73]

Jacksonville FL, Columbus OH, and Charlotte NC are all larger in population than Denver, El Paso, Washington DC, Boston, Kansas City (MO and KS combined), Atlanta, Miami, and St. Louis.

There are 24 combinations here. While a few might not be surprising, most of them are.

Metro area, however are different.

Jacksonville and Charlotte have highly inflated populations due to overzealous annexing. DC and Boston would be MUCH larger cities if they could annex what is around them. 

Pretty much every major U.S. city that rose to prominence post-WWII is going to have more land area than the older cities like New York and Boston.

[US 89]

Salt Lake City area is a good example of a weird metro area. The city proper has a population of about 190,000 but the metro has more than 1 million, and the urban area in total is about 2.5 million.

Albuquerque, on the other hand, has a population of around 550,000 but a metro of only 850,000, so pretty similar to Jacksonville/Charlotte.

[cl94]

Jacksonville FL, Columbus OH, and Charlotte NC are all larger in population than Denver, El Paso, Washington DC, Boston, Kansas City (MO and KS combined), Atlanta, Miami, and St. Louis.

There are 24 combinations here. While a few might not be surprising, most of them are.

Metro area, however are different.

Jacksonville and Charlotte have highly inflated populations due to overzealous annexing. DC and Boston would be MUCH larger cities if they could annex what is around them. 

Pretty much every major U.S. city that rose to prominence post-WWII is going to have more land area than the older cities like New York and Boston.

Correct. While a decent amount of Columbus's population growth is due to people moving in, it has annexed quite a bit of the surrounding area, such that a few townships in Franklin County have become nearly nothing and the city has expanded into two other counties.

[english si]

Salt Lake City area is a good example of a weird metro area. The city proper has a population of about 190,000 but the metro has more than 1 million, and the urban area in total is about 2.5 million.

London, the city, has a population about 0.1% of the Region (8000 vs 8 million in ball parks) and would fit into the Met Area (over 13m people) like feet into a mile.

[kalvado]

Salt Lake City area is a good example of a weird metro area. The city proper has a population of about 190,000 but the metro has more than 1 million, and the urban area in total is about 2.5 million.

London, the city, has a population about 0.1% of the Region (8000 vs 8 million in ball parks) and would fit into the Met Area (over 13m people) like feet into a mile.

Just to put things in perspective - I am not sure if UK has the same issue:
Many US cities  have significant problems with old city being  separate legal entity from the metropolitan area. Often this results in some sort of segregation - either old city is left to those who cannot afford suburb living, or vice versa. End result is city, where many businesses are located, ends up with population having different income level than the area, and governments of city and suburbs  which protects interests of a small groups. Lots of people commute to the city, often pay some tax - but have no say in policies. And that creates problems which could be avoided if entire area had same government and interests/money flow could be more balanced. ...

[english si]

The City of London has had a sui generis governmental status for about 950 years and is defined by the Roman Wall and has only seen minor alterations to the boundary (eg to include the southern half of bridges when they have been built).

The Tower of London was built on the outside of the City to subjugate the Londoners, rather than protect them (though it served both functions). Tower Hamlets that cropped up to serve the castle was poorer (as the East End is still). However Westminster on the other side wasn't poorer, despite the less salubrious area of Cheapside within the City heading west from the centre not east. In Georgian times areas like Soho and the West End were built - denser than the City proper (and in the mid-20th century, became as important, if not more, than the City, as a business area) and much richer. The factors were not the presence of the Wall, or the local Government structure, but things like where the industry and noise were and who build the buildings and when and so on.

[jwolfer]

Jacksonville FL, Columbus OH, and Charlotte NC are all larger in population than Denver, El Paso, Washington DC, Boston, Kansas City (MO and KS combined), Atlanta, Miami, and St. Louis.

There are 24 combinations here. While a few might not be surprising, most of them are.

Metro area, however are different.

Jacksonville and Charlotte have highly inflated populations due to overzealous annexing. DC and Boston would be MUCH larger cities if they could annex what is around them.

Jacksonville and Duval County are consolidated not really annexation.

There are 4 cities in Duval County that are not part of Jacksonville, but the city of Jacksonville is the county government. That why one of the former mayors of Jacksonville actually lived in Neptune Beach.

There are over 900k people in Jacksonville (913k in the city of Jacksonville and 926k in Duval County) but the metro area is 1.6 million. Compared to Miami 400k in the city but over 5 million in Metro.

Looking at city limits Jacksonville is the 3rd largest city in population on east coast.. Only NYC and Philadelphia are larger

LGMS428

[US 89]

Jacksonville FL, Columbus OH, and Charlotte NC are all larger in population than Denver, El Paso, Washington DC, Boston, Kansas City (MO and KS combined), Atlanta, Miami, and St. Louis.

There are 24 combinations here. While a few might not be surprising, most of them are.

Metro area, however are different.

Jacksonville and Charlotte have highly inflated populations due to overzealous annexing. DC and Boston would be MUCH larger cities if they could annex what is around them.

Jacksonville and Duval County are consolidated not really annexation.

There are 4 cities in Duval County that are not part of Jacksonville, but the city of Jacksonville is the county government. That why one of the former mayors of Jacksonville actually lived in Neptune Beach.

There are over 900k people in Jacksonville (913k in the city of Jacksonville and 926k in Duval County) but the metro area is 1.6 million. Compared to Miami 400k in the city but over 5 million in Metro.

Looking at city limits Jacksonville is the 3rd largest city on east coast.. Only NYC and Philadelphia are larger

LGMS428

But just being a consolidated city-county doesn't always inflate city population relative to metro. Denver (a city- county with no other cities in the county, unlike Jacksonville) has a population of 600K, whereas Denver metro has 2.8 million.

[jwolfer]

Jacksonville FL, Columbus OH, and Charlotte NC are all larger in population than Denver, El Paso, Washington DC, Boston, Kansas City (MO and KS combined), Atlanta, Miami, and St. Louis.

There are 24 combinations here. While a few might not be surprising, most of them are.

Metro area, however are different.

Jacksonville and Charlotte have highly inflated populations due to overzealous annexing. DC and Boston would be MUCH larger cities if they could annex what is around them.

Jacksonville and Duval County are consolidated not really annexation.

There are 4 cities in Duval County that are not part of Jacksonville, but the city of Jacksonville is the county government. That why one of the former mayors of Jacksonville actually lived in Neptune Beach.

There are over 900k people in Jacksonville (913k in the city of Jacksonville and 926k in Duval County) but the metro area is 1.6 million. Compared to Miami 400k in the city but over 5 million in Metro.

Looking at city limits Jacksonville is the 3rd largest city on east coast.. Only NYC and Philadelphia are larger

LGMS428

But just being a consolidated city-county doesn't always inflate city population relative to metro. Denver (a city- county with no other cities in the county, unlike Jacksonville) has a population of 600K, whereas Denver metro has 2.8 million.

Consolidation in and of itself doesnt make the city a larger proprtion of metro.  Duval County is geographically large. Square milage of Jacksonville went from under 100 to more than 800. Consolidation took most of Jacksonville's existing suburbs into the city limits.

  Jacksonville pre 1968 was a city within Duval County. Essentially the city of Jacksonville and County of Duval ceased to exist..a new combined entity was formed.. The 4 other cities in Duval do not take much land at all. And they are represented on Jacksonville city council, since Jax is the county government for Baldwin, Jacksonville Beach, Neptune Beach and Atlantic Beach.


As far as i understand the city of Denver which existed in multiple counties became its own county. The square milage didnt increase much, if at all

LGMS428

[michravera]

The sunset tomorrow where I live is 3:56 PM. New England really needs to join the Atlantic time zone. It's pitch black here before 5.

It's similar in Quebec city (3:59). The Atlantic time zone should be extended west IMO. It would follow the state line between NY and CT, MA, and VT border. Then it would cross the border and follow a line just east of Montreal.

Typically time zones are arranged to not split metro areas. This is why a chunk of eastern Oregon is in Mountain Time, to match Boise. For similar reasons, you wouldn't want southwestern CT in a different time zone from NYC. Realistically, it'd be difficult to move the border between Atlantic and Eastern into the US without making a mess of things. New England is too densely populated. Although you maybe could work something out where Connecticut and Western Mass stay in Eastern while the rest of New England goes Atlantic.

US already has two territories on Atlantic time.
What is silly is the continuation of Daylight time into November. There's no daylight to save!
I suspect that Maine and Vermont could join Atlantic and no one would really care.

[hotdogPi]

I suspect that Maine and Vermont could join Atlantic and no one would really care.

Some people would care. Specifically, those in New Hampshire, which hadn't switched, and would be bordered on both sides by those who had.

[jp the roadgeek]

The sunset tomorrow where I live is 3:56 PM. New England really needs to join the Atlantic time zone. It's pitch black here before 5.

It's similar in Quebec city (3:59). The Atlantic time zone should be extended west IMO. It would follow the state line between NY and CT, MA, and VT border. Then it would cross the border and follow a line just east of Montreal.

Typically time zones are arranged to not split metro areas. This is why a chunk of eastern Oregon is in Mountain Time, to match Boise. For similar reasons, you wouldn't want southwestern CT in a different time zone from NYC. Realistically, it'd be difficult to move the border between Atlantic and Eastern into the US without making a mess of things. New England is too densely populated. Although you maybe could work something out where Connecticut and Western Mass stay in Eastern while the rest of New England goes Atlantic.

US already has two territories on Atlantic time.
What is silly is the continuation of Daylight time into November. There's no daylight to save!
I suspect that Maine and Vermont could join Atlantic and no one would really care.

There's no way that Boston and New York should be in different time zones.  The best time zone line should start west of Ottawa, passing just west of Kingston, Ontario, crossing Lake Ontario and following county lines between Syracuse and Rochester.  After passing between Binghamton and Corning, it crosses into PA, passing west of Williamsport and between the Harrisburg and Altoona areas.  In Maryland, it would pass west of Hagerstown, and cut just west of the West Virginia panhandle before turning east and running southeast through Virginia to meet the VA/NC border just west of Richmond, then follow the border to the Atlantic coast.

[tckma]

I suspect that Maine and Vermont could join Atlantic and no one would really care.

Why not New Hampshire as well, then?

I imagine Vermont and New Hampshire might be problematic, at least for southern towns.  A lot of people in Southern NH commute to jobs in the Boston area (example: when I lived in Nashua, NH, I commuted to Tewksbury, MA).  I presume a lot of people who live in southwestern Vermont might commute to jobs in the Albany, NY area.  This sort of thing is why northwestern and southwestern counties in Indiana are on Central time while the rest of that state is on Eastern time.

[The Nature Boy]

The economy and culture of northern New England is based around Boston. There's no way that they switch without Boston.

[bing101]

Jacksonville, FL has a larger land area than Los Angeles and New York combined.

[inkyatari]

Sitka, Alaska is the largest city in the US by land area

[michravera]

I suspect that Maine and Vermont could join Atlantic and no one would really care.

Why not New Hampshire as well, then?

I imagine Vermont and New Hampshire might be problematic, at least for southern towns.  A lot of people in Southern NH commute to jobs in the Boston area (example: when I lived in Nashua, NH, I commuted to Tewksbury, MA).  I presume a lot of people who live in southwestern Vermont might commute to jobs in the Albany, NY area.  This sort of thing is why northwestern and southwestern counties in Indiana are on Central time while the rest of that state is on Eastern time.

It's only in the Eastern time zone where people think that working in another time zone is somehow difficult. Some people have to deal with not only working in a different time zone, but one that isn't always the same difference.

[Sctvhound]

I suspect that Maine and Vermont could join Atlantic and no one would really care.

Why not New Hampshire as well, then?

I imagine Vermont and New Hampshire might be problematic, at least for southern towns.  A lot of people in Southern NH commute to jobs in the Boston area (example: when I lived in Nashua, NH, I commuted to Tewksbury, MA).  I presume a lot of people who live in southwestern Vermont might commute to jobs in the Albany, NY area.  This sort of thing is why northwestern and southwestern counties in Indiana are on Central time while the rest of that state is on Eastern time.

Also, sporting events being on one hour later than Boston. I don't think people would like having Sunday Night Football start at 9:30, west coast Red Sox games starting at 11, and primetime TV not ending until midnight.

[michravera]

I suspect that Maine and Vermont could join Atlantic and no one would really care.

Why not New Hampshire as well, then?

I imagine Vermont and New Hampshire might be problematic, at least for southern towns.  A lot of people in Southern NH commute to jobs in the Boston area (example: when I lived in Nashua, NH, I commuted to Tewksbury, MA).  I presume a lot of people who live in southwestern Vermont might commute to jobs in the Albany, NY area.  This sort of thing is why northwestern and southwestern counties in Indiana are on Central time while the rest of that state is on Eastern time.

Also, sporting events being on one hour later than Boston. I don't think people would like having Sunday Night Football start at 9:30, west coast Red Sox games starting at 11, and primetime TV not ending until midnight.

Prime Time TV is not an issue. First, many people don't watch prime time at the time that it runs anyway. Second, I believe that Canada runs a separate feed for recorded CBC programs for the Atlantic and Maritime time zones that runs an hour or two ahead of the Eastern time zone feed. There is no reason that US networks couldn't do the same.

As for live sporting events, hey, it's live. Deal with it! People in Hawaii have been dealing with screwy times for live events ever since the invention of the radio. Normal Sunday NFL games start at 7AM in September and October. Some East Coast baseball games start at 6AM (or rarely 4AM for a morning game of the 4th of July).

I remember the first time that I was vacationing in Sint Maarten, I woke up on a Sunday morning to the CBS satellite feed of "Face the Nation" expecting "The NFL Today" to follow immediately. Not for another 3 or 4 hours! Time to grab food, hit the beach, and THEN maybe watch some football, and my teams (49ers and Raiders) didn't even play until 5PM. Maybe, I could watch those games on the Wide Screen inside the casino (which usually didn't open until 4PM or so)!

[Roadgeekteen]

The economy and culture of northern New England is based around Boston. There's no way that they switch without Boston.

All of New England could be Atlantic.

Edit: 4 years later, fixed spelling.

[SP Cook]

The USA will never make a substantial change to the main four time zones.  Dead issue.  Leaving out Communist China, which has one goofy time zone for the whole country which makes its west be off by many hours, the two most off places seem to be Argentina and Spain, both of whch need to go one-time zone west.  Spain makes no sense, as Portugal is in the right time zone, and the mountainous border with France would be a natural place with little interaction for the zone line to be.

[ghYHZ]

Prime Time TV is not an issue. First, many people don't watch prime time at the time that it runs anyway. Second, I believe that Canada runs a separate feed for recorded CBC programs for the Atlantic and Maritime time zones that runs an hour or two ahead of the Eastern time zone feed.....

Right......The Maritimes are on Atlantic Time......and the island of Newfoundland has one of those 'half-hour' time zones.

When it's 1pm in New York, Boston, Toronto or Montreal.....it's 2pm in the Maritimes and 2:30pm in Newfoundland,

When the Jay's first pitch is at 1:07pm......that game start is 2:07 here and 2:37pm in St. John's. So except for live broadcasts......most networks here show programming at the same time in each time zone across the country. 

[The Nature Boy]

The economy and culture of northern New England is based around Boston. There's no way that they switch without Boston.

All of New Engkand could be atlantic.

At first glance, yes. But the problem of media markets makes Western New England incredibly difficult.

- You can't really switch any part of Vermont out of the eastern time zone because every media market in the state either extends into New York (Burlington/Plattsburgh) or is primarily anchored in New York (Albany). Windham County is the exception since they're in the Boston media market (somehow).

- You also can't switch the Upper Valley in New Hampshire because they're apart of the Burlington, VT market, which as mentioned above extends in Plattsburgh, NY. You could probably solve this by having cable providers in the area carry Portland, ME or Boston stations.

- The Berkshires are apart of the Albany, NY market and are stuck in the Eastern Time Zone.

- Southwest Connecticut is in the New York, NY media market and WAY too reliant economically on the City to switch.

Now.....

You may say that we could switch the following areas to the Atlantic Time Zone:

- New Hampshire (solving the Upper Valley problem by slotting them into the Boston media market)
- Maine
- Massachusetts (minus Berkshire County)
- Rhode Island
- Connecticut (minus Fairfield County)

Problems:

- The Berkshires already feel neglected by legislators in Boston, I feel as though being in a different time zone would make the problem worse.

- You also have the issue of the NH/VT border areas, which are pretty economically connected with a couple of school districts even taking in students across state lines. For example, Hanover High School in Hanover, NH enrolls students from Hanover, NH and Norwich, VT so putting them into different school districts would create a few logistical problems. There's simply no way to move NH to Atlantic and NOT Vermont.

Possible solutions:

- You could extend the Springfield DMA to include the Berkshires so you can get the entirety of Massachusetts in the Atlantic Time Zone. This is actually a pretty easy fix.

- You could simply let Clinton, Essex and Franklin Counties in New York go to the Atlantic Time Zone as way to maintain continuity in the Burlington-Plattsburgh market. The problem with this is two fold, (1) A person leaving Albany or NYC would change time zones by going due north, which seems a bit absurd (though not unheard of, see: Indiana) (2) Relegating 3 rural counties to a different time zone would probably increase feelings of isolation with the rest of the State of New York.

- There's honestly no way to feasibly move Fairfield County, CT to the Atlantic Time Zone.

I've given way too much thought about this.

[hbelkins]

I don't know that media market boundaries are that important when it comes to time zones.

A significant portion of the Louisville media market is in Central Time, while Louisville is in Eastern Time. I had an aunt and uncle who moved from Bullitt County, south of Louisville, to Grayson County, which is on the eastern edge of Central Time. They frequently referred to Eastern Time as "Louisville Time."

[amroad17]

HB, remember when Indiana had their Eastern Time Zone stay on one time all year (minus the four counties near Cincinnati)?  My mother-in-law had friends who lived in New Albany.  Whenever we visited them, we had to be aware that even though it was, say, 1pm in Louisville, it was 12pm at their house just across the river.