This is true? - Geographic oddities that defy conventional wisdom

[jwolfer]

HB, remember when Indiana had their Eastern Time Zone stay on one time all year (minus the four counties near Cincinnati)?  My mother-in-law had friends who lived in New Albany.  Whenever we visited them, we had to be aware that even though it was, say, 1pm in Louisville, it was 12pm at their house just across the river.

My ex wifes dad was from Indiana.. I remember going there in summer and they didnt have DST..  Her dad and uncle said people near Louisville especially those who worked across the river de facto observed DST to keep the same as work or other connections

LGMS428

[Roadgeekteen]

The economy and culture of northern New England is based around Boston. There's no way that they switch without Boston.

All of New Engkand could be atlantic.

At first glance, yes. But the problem of media markets makes Western New England incredibly difficult.

- You can't really switch any part of Vermont out of the eastern time zone because every media market in the state either extends into New York (Burlington/Plattsburgh) or is primarily anchored in New York (Albany). Windham County is the exception since they're in the Boston media market (somehow).

- You also can't switch the Upper Valley in New Hampshire because they're apart of the Burlington, VT market, which as mentioned above extends in Plattsburgh, NY. You could probably solve this by having cable providers in the area carry Portland, ME or Boston stations.

- The Berkshires are apart of the Albany, NY market and are stuck in the Eastern Time Zone.

- Southwest Connecticut is in the New York, NY media market and WAY too reliant economically on the City to switch.

Now.....

You may say that we could switch the following areas to the Atlantic Time Zone:

- New Hampshire (solving the Upper Valley problem by slotting them into the Boston media market)
- Maine
- Massachusetts (minus Berkshire County)
- Rhode Island
- Connecticut (minus Fairfield County)

Problems:

- The Berkshires already feel neglected by legislators in Boston, I feel as though being in a different time zone would make the problem worse.

- You also have the issue of the NH/VT border areas, which are pretty economically connected with a couple of school districts even taking in students across state lines. For example, Hanover High School in Hanover, NH enrolls students from Hanover, NH and Norwich, VT so putting them into different school districts would create a few logistical problems. There's simply no way to move NH to Atlantic and NOT Vermont.

Possible solutions:

- You could extend the Springfield DMA to include the Berkshires so you can get the entirety of Massachusetts in the Atlantic Time Zone. This is actually a pretty easy fix.

- You could simply let Clinton, Essex and Franklin Counties in New York go to the Atlantic Time Zone as way to maintain continuity in the Burlington-Plattsburgh market. The problem with this is two fold, (1) A person leaving Albany or NYC would change time zones by going due north, which seems a bit absurd (though not unheard of, see: Indiana) (2) Relegating 3 rural counties to a different time zone would probably increase feelings of isolation with the rest of the State of New York.

- There's honestly no way to feasibly move Fairfield County, CT to the Atlantic Time Zone.

I've given way too much thought about this.

NYC and long island could be atlantic.

[US 89]

The economy and culture of northern New England is based around Boston. There's no way that they switch without Boston.

All of New Engkand could be atlantic.

At first glance, yes. But the problem of media markets makes Western New England incredibly difficult.

- You can't really switch any part of Vermont out of the eastern time zone because every media market in the state either extends into New York (Burlington/Plattsburgh) or is primarily anchored in New York (Albany). Windham County is the exception since they're in the Boston media market (somehow).

- You also can't switch the Upper Valley in New Hampshire because they're apart of the Burlington, VT market, which as mentioned above extends in Plattsburgh, NY. You could probably solve this by having cable providers in the area carry Portland, ME or Boston stations.

- The Berkshires are apart of the Albany, NY market and are stuck in the Eastern Time Zone.

- Southwest Connecticut is in the New York, NY media market and WAY too reliant economically on the City to switch.

Now.....

You may say that we could switch the following areas to the Atlantic Time Zone:

- New Hampshire (solving the Upper Valley problem by slotting them into the Boston media market)
- Maine
- Massachusetts (minus Berkshire County)
- Rhode Island
- Connecticut (minus Fairfield County)

Problems:

- The Berkshires already feel neglected by legislators in Boston, I feel as though being in a different time zone would make the problem worse.

- You also have the issue of the NH/VT border areas, which are pretty economically connected with a couple of school districts even taking in students across state lines. For example, Hanover High School in Hanover, NH enrolls students from Hanover, NH and Norwich, VT so putting them into different school districts would create a few logistical problems. There's simply no way to move NH to Atlantic and NOT Vermont.

Possible solutions:

- You could extend the Springfield DMA to include the Berkshires so you can get the entirety of Massachusetts in the Atlantic Time Zone. This is actually a pretty easy fix.

- You could simply let Clinton, Essex and Franklin Counties in New York go to the Atlantic Time Zone as way to maintain continuity in the Burlington-Plattsburgh market. The problem with this is two fold, (1) A person leaving Albany or NYC would change time zones by going due north, which seems a bit absurd (though not unheard of, see: Indiana) (2) Relegating 3 rural counties to a different time zone would probably increase feelings of isolation with the rest of the State of New York.

- There's honestly no way to feasibly move Fairfield County, CT to the Atlantic Time Zone.

I've given way too much thought about this.

NYC and long island could be atlantic.

No way. The economy of the Northeast is too closely tied for that. As an example, that would leave Philadelphia and NYC on different zones. DC would be too, and that might cause difficulties for the government.

The economic reasoning is why southern Idaho is in the Mountain time zone (economic ties with Utah) and why Jackpot and West Wendover observe Mountain time (economic ties with Idaho and Utah, respectively. Kenton OK observes Mountain time because they are surrounded by states that do (NM and CO).

[Roadgeekteen]

The economy and culture of northern New England is based around Boston. There's no way that they switch without Boston.

All of New Engkand could be atlantic.

At first glance, yes. But the problem of media markets makes Western New England incredibly difficult.

- You can't really switch any part of Vermont out of the eastern time zone because every media market in the state either extends into New York (Burlington/Plattsburgh) or is primarily anchored in New York (Albany). Windham County is the exception since they're in the Boston media market (somehow).

- You also can't switch the Upper Valley in New Hampshire because they're apart of the Burlington, VT market, which as mentioned above extends in Plattsburgh, NY. You could probably solve this by having cable providers in the area carry Portland, ME or Boston stations.

- The Berkshires are apart of the Albany, NY market and are stuck in the Eastern Time Zone.

- Southwest Connecticut is in the New York, NY media market and WAY too reliant economically on the City to switch.

Now.....

You may say that we could switch the following areas to the Atlantic Time Zone:

- New Hampshire (solving the Upper Valley problem by slotting them into the Boston media market)
- Maine
- Massachusetts (minus Berkshire County)
- Rhode Island
- Connecticut (minus Fairfield County)

Problems:

- The Berkshires already feel neglected by legislators in Boston, I feel as though being in a different time zone would make the problem worse.

- You also have the issue of the NH/VT border areas, which are pretty economically connected with a couple of school districts even taking in students across state lines. For example, Hanover High School in Hanover, NH enrolls students from Hanover, NH and Norwich, VT so putting them into different school districts would create a few logistical problems. There's simply no way to move NH to Atlantic and NOT Vermont.

Possible solutions:

- You could extend the Springfield DMA to include the Berkshires so you can get the entirety of Massachusetts in the Atlantic Time Zone. This is actually a pretty easy fix.

- You could simply let Clinton, Essex and Franklin Counties in New York go to the Atlantic Time Zone as way to maintain continuity in the Burlington-Plattsburgh market. The problem with this is two fold, (1) A person leaving Albany or NYC would change time zones by going due north, which seems a bit absurd (though not unheard of, see: Indiana) (2) Relegating 3 rural counties to a different time zone would probably increase feelings of isolation with the rest of the State of New York.

- There's honestly no way to feasibly move Fairfield County, CT to the Atlantic Time Zone.

I've given way too much thought about this.

NYC and long island could be atlantic.

No way. The economy of the Northeast is too closely tied for that. As an example, that would leave Philadelphia and NYC on different zones. DC would be too, and that might cause difficulties for the government.

The economic reasoning is why southern Idaho is in the Mountain time zone (economic ties with Utah) and why Jackpot and West Wendover observe Mountain time (economic ties with Idaho and Utah, respectively. Kenton OK observes Mountain time because they are surrounded by states that do (NM and CO).

Just maine can be atlantic.

[kalvado]

I don't think time difference is actually that big of a problem to begin with - but that is exactly why things wouldn't work.
There were stories about California actually having different hours - people tend to start work earlier (and leave earlier), and major reason is closing gap between CA and East coast for those who work with East coast - and for those who work with those who work with East coast.
I suspect if Boston actually switch to Atlantic, normal business hours would be 10-6 instead of 9-5 - just to match different time zone. So actual positive effect of changing time zone would be much smaller than expected - if any. Confusion due to change would be there full scale, though.

[The Nature Boy]

The economy and culture of northern New England is based around Boston. There's no way that they switch without Boston.

All of New Engkand could be atlantic.

At first glance, yes. But the problem of media markets makes Western New England incredibly difficult.

- You can't really switch any part of Vermont out of the eastern time zone because every media market in the state either extends into New York (Burlington/Plattsburgh) or is primarily anchored in New York (Albany). Windham County is the exception since they're in the Boston media market (somehow).

- You also can't switch the Upper Valley in New Hampshire because they're apart of the Burlington, VT market, which as mentioned above extends in Plattsburgh, NY. You could probably solve this by having cable providers in the area carry Portland, ME or Boston stations.

- The Berkshires are apart of the Albany, NY market and are stuck in the Eastern Time Zone.

- Southwest Connecticut is in the New York, NY media market and WAY too reliant economically on the City to switch.

Now.....

You may say that we could switch the following areas to the Atlantic Time Zone:

- New Hampshire (solving the Upper Valley problem by slotting them into the Boston media market)
- Maine
- Massachusetts (minus Berkshire County)
- Rhode Island
- Connecticut (minus Fairfield County)

Problems:

- The Berkshires already feel neglected by legislators in Boston, I feel as though being in a different time zone would make the problem worse.

- You also have the issue of the NH/VT border areas, which are pretty economically connected with a couple of school districts even taking in students across state lines. For example, Hanover High School in Hanover, NH enrolls students from Hanover, NH and Norwich, VT so putting them into different school districts would create a few logistical problems. There's simply no way to move NH to Atlantic and NOT Vermont.

Possible solutions:

- You could extend the Springfield DMA to include the Berkshires so you can get the entirety of Massachusetts in the Atlantic Time Zone. This is actually a pretty easy fix.

- You could simply let Clinton, Essex and Franklin Counties in New York go to the Atlantic Time Zone as way to maintain continuity in the Burlington-Plattsburgh market. The problem with this is two fold, (1) A person leaving Albany or NYC would change time zones by going due north, which seems a bit absurd (though not unheard of, see: Indiana) (2) Relegating 3 rural counties to a different time zone would probably increase feelings of isolation with the rest of the State of New York.

- There's honestly no way to feasibly move Fairfield County, CT to the Atlantic Time Zone.

I've given way too much thought about this.

NYC and long island could be atlantic.

No way. The economy of the Northeast is too closely tied for that. As an example, that would leave Philadelphia and NYC on different zones. DC would be too, and that might cause difficulties for the government.

The economic reasoning is why southern Idaho is in the Mountain time zone (economic ties with Utah) and why Jackpot and West Wendover observe Mountain time (economic ties with Idaho and Utah, respectively. Kenton OK observes Mountain time because they are surrounded by states that do (NM and CO).

The interconnectedness of the Northeast economy is also why switching would be difficult. Boston wouldn't want to be in a different time zone than NYC, Philly, and DC and northern New England couldn't be in a different time zone than Boston.

The Atlantic time zone sounds nice but it just isn't feasible.

[jwolfer]

I read that one of the reasons Delta chose Atlanta as their HQ over Birmingham was because it was in eastern time zone, with NYC,Philadelphia,Boston, Washington etc.

Sort of a tangent. I saw a map where Georgia and all of Florida were central time

LGMS428

[hbelkins]

HB, remember when Indiana had their Eastern Time Zone stay on one time all year (minus the four counties near Cincinnati)?  My mother-in-law had friends who lived in New Albany.  Whenever we visited them, we had to be aware that even though it was, say, 1pm in Louisville, it was 12pm at their house just across the river.

I think there was a year when much of Kentucky was shifted, as well. It may have been during one of the 1970's energy crises (we had two, one under Nixon and then under Carter).

[SP Cook]

I think you are thinking of the "Emergency Daylight Time Act" which extended DST to January to October in 1974 and February to October in 1975.  The idea was to save energy, but it did not work and caused a recordable rise in traffic accidents, including, sadly, school children involved accidents.  They went back to the normal schedule in 1976.  It was a dumb idea.

[PColumbus73]

The United States is about 500 miles from France.

[Takumi]

The United States is about 500 miles from France.

Bah, technicalities...

[Roadgeekteen]

The United States is about 500 miles from France.

A French territory in the Caribbean is why this is the case, right?

[SignGeek101]

The United States is about 500 miles from France.

A French territory in the Caribbean is why this is the case, right?

I think he's referring to St Pierre et Miquelon, an island just off the coast of Newfoundland. Apparently, it's the only place where you can "drive to Europe".

https://goo.gl/maps/DzX91KiNWTt

More info: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=18307.msg2157021#msg2157021

[GaryV]

I think he's referring to St Pierre et Miquelon, an island just off the coast of Newfoundland. Apparently, it's the only place where you can "drive to Europe".

Being a part of France doesn't make it a part of Europe.  Guam is not in North America, just because it is an American territory.  Hong Kong was never part of Europe, just because it was British.

Granted, the French Overseas bits are an integral part of France.  It's as if Puerto Rico, Guam, etc were already states.  But they're still not in Europe.

[hotdogPi]

I think he's referring to St Pierre et Miquelon, an island just off the coast of Newfoundland. Apparently, it's the only place where you can "drive to Europe".

Being a part of France doesn't make it a part of Europe.  Guam is not in North America, just because it is an American territory.  Hong Kong was never part of Europe, just because it was British.

Granted, the French Overseas bits are an integral part of France.  It's as if Puerto Rico, Guam, etc were already states.  But they're still not in Europe.

St. Pierre et Miquelon is not in Europe, but they still do use the euro.

[CNGL-Leudimin]

I immediately thought of St. Pierre and Miquelon when PColumbus said

The United States is about 500 miles from France.

Even better is that Brazil borders France . I used to think French Guiana was independent until I spotted it on a inset in a map of France.

[inkyatari]

Illinois is on both sides of the Mississippi river in not one, but several places.

[SP Cook]

Depends on what you mean by "Europe".  If you mean the geographical continent, no.  But then again neither would Hawaii, one of the United States of America, be in America.  However if you mean the European Union, then what they call "Overseas France" is in Europe.

[vdeane]

Illinois is on both sides of the Mississippi river in not one, but several places.

That's only because the river moved after they surveyed the border. It's not like France used to be connected to their overseas territories, and then the ocean moved and separated them.

It's still a geographic oddity that defies conventional wisdom, as per the thread title.  I didn't read it as being in reply to the France overseas territories discussion.

[jeffandnicole]

Illinois is on both sides of the Mississippi river in not one, but several places.

Delaware is on both sides of the Delaware River in two places as well!

[empirestate]

Illinois is on both sides of the Mississippi river in not one, but several places.

Delaware is on both sides of the Delaware River in two places as well!

And heck, Spain is on two sides of the Mediterranean.

(And those of you who are interested in this sort of thing should follow the Geography Now YouTube channel, if you don't already.)

[The Nature Boy]

Is there a state where the changing course of rivers has resulted in funky state boundaries? I understand that states don't like losing land area so no one ever set the boundary as "the other side of the river" but there are some odd ones.

Some portions of New Hampshire are on the other side of the Connecticut River, ditto for the Salmon Falls River on the Maine side.

[SP Cook]

And heck, Spain is on two sides of the Mediterranean.

(And those of you who are interested in this sort of thing should follow the Geography Now YouTube channel, if you don't already.)

Geography Now is pretty good, but the guy makes some mistakes.  He should have a professor or somethng review his material before uplinking it. 

And with small Spanish enclaves in Africa, the above discussed St. Pierre & Miquelon and the still not independent Caribbean islands, French Guiana, Cyprus (culturally European but geographically a island off Asia Minor, and thus technically Asia), and the (suspended) territorial claims to Antarctica, the only continent that contains no part of the European Union is Australia.

[TheStranger]

Is there a state where the changing course of rivers has resulted in funky state boundaries? I understand that states don't like losing land area so no one ever set the boundary as "the other side of the river" but there are some odd ones.

Carter Lake, Iowa (surrounded by the Missouri River now to its east and Omaha, Nebraska on the left)
a portion of the Illinois/Kentucky border near Shawneetown, IL
portions of Missouri/Kentucky border where land within Kentucky's borders is connected only to Missouri's territory (near Deventer, MO)

[SP Cook]

Is there a state where the changing course of rivers has resulted in funky state boundaries?

The changes in course to the Mississippi and the Ohio have parts of most of those states on the "wrong" side of the river.  Most are just unoccupied scrub land or farm land, but I think the most significant one is a small part of Kentucky that is on Indiana's side of the Ohio, in what otherwise would be Evansville.  Ellis Park race course is there, horse racing being legal in KY long before IN.   There are some people that live there as well. 

The Rio Grande changes course too, and there are always parts of the USA and Mexico on the "wrong" side of the river.  Every 10 years or so the two countries have a treaty to swap, but they are always behind the times.