I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange

[briantroutman]

Considered in a regional context, I think combined route of I-476 and I-276 between Chester and Bristol make more sense as a 180° beltway bridging Philadelphia's two 2DIs and three shoulder counties. Obviously, the Mid-County Interchange isn't set up that way, though.

[Mr_Northside]

Funny how PennDOT broke that rule with extending I-376 as that now serves as a loop and could be considered a beltway now.

It's both a loop AND a spur.....

[PHLBOS]

Considered in a regional context, I think combined route of I-476 and I-276 between Chester and Bristol make more sense as a 180° beltway bridging Philadelphia's two 2DIs and three shoulder counties. Obviously, the Mid-County Interchange isn't set up that way, though.

Looking at an aerial photograph of the Mid-County interchange, all that would need to be to done to accomplish the above (I know, Fictional territory) would be to widen/restripe the ramps to ensure two lanes all-the-way through for the I-476 North=>I-276 East and the I-276 West=>I-476 South movements and widen a portion of I-276 eastbound just east of the interchange.

Side bar: One has to wonder if the long-cancelled 12-Mile Loop Expressway between I-95 (at Academy Road) and I-76/476 near Conshohocken been built; could that have been one possible I-476 routing with the Blue Route segment between I-76/476 and the Mid-County Toll Plaza being simply PA 9?  Note: there was no known route number for this expressway but such could've functioned w/the PA Turnpike (I-276) similar to how I-295 functions with the NJ Turnpike in southern NJ (local traffic=free Interstate, through-traffic=toll highway).

[Beltway]

The ultimate candy-cane shape (sort of) of DE/NJ/PA I-295 reminds me a bit of VA's I-295. 
Down there, the portion west of I-95 has no cardinal directions.  Interchange cross-street signs reference the next major route(s) -- to I-64 East/I-95 or to I-64 West -- and control cities of those routes -- Norfolk/Washington or Charlottesville.

I-295 is conventionally an outer Richmond bypass for east-west I-64 and an outer Richmond-Petersburg bypass for north-south I-95, and an outer Richmond bypass for between northerly I-95 and easterly I-64.

[SignBridge]

In my earlier reply to vdeane, I should have also mentioned that one solution to this whole debate about east-west vs. north-south could be "solved" by just not listing cardinal directions at all on the signs, as is the practice on the German Autobahns. They just show the route shield and usually several destinations and that seems to be acceptable in that part of Europe.

[bzakharin]

In my earlier reply to vdeane, I should have also mentioned that one solution to this whole debate about east-west vs. north-south could be "solved" by just not listing cardinal directions at all on the signs, as is the practice on the German Autobahns. They just show the route shield and usually several destinations and that seems to be acceptable in that part of Europe.

It's convenient shorthand. Each route has two clear possible directions, so if you're told (by a person, GPS, written directions, etc) to take I-295 North, it is more likely that you'll get onto the right roadway going in the right direction. I personally think it's superior to what Europe does most of the time, even if the directions are off. Beltways are a counterexample sometimes, but destinations on Beltways are usually rather obscure too, since, after all, you're bypassing the major city in the area. It occurs to me that what they're doing with 295 actually makes sense from this perspective. The change happens at a place where there isn't a choice to be made (state line) and at every entrance you have a simple choice to make (North/South or East/West). It also avoids the issue where you second-guess yourself, "wait I'm going South. Wasn't I going North?"

It always seems strange to me when I leave my brother's house and the two I-695 entrances are labeled "South" and "West". I can't say I was ever confused by it, but it's odd.

[SignBridge]

I agree that in general our (U.S.) sign system is better for showing the directions but with the argument that's going on here, I thought it was a good time to point out alternatives used elsewhere. It's all good.

[AMLNet49]

I dont know if it was mentioned in the discussion of the signing of Exit 6, but from the extension it is no longer signed as a split. It's now an unnumbered right exit for the Turnpike south/Camden, which makes sense within the context of the former unnumbered left exit becoming the signed I-95 mainline

Also I wonder if this will eventually be known as Exit 6 as well or if it will stay unnumbered

[jeffandnicole]

I dont know if it was mentioned in the discussion of the signing of Exit 6, but from the extension it is no longer signed as a split. It's now an unnumbered right exit for the Turnpike south/Camden, which makes sense within the context of the former unnumbered left exit becoming the signed I-95 mainline

Also I wonder if this will eventually be known as Exit 6 as well or if it will stay unnumbered

I don't think anything really changed here.  And based on today's exit/interchange numbers, it can't be signed as Exit 6 due to the ticket system used. Exit 6 is for the extension. Someone looking at their toll ticket (who am I kidding...no one looks at them) would be confused if there was another Exit 6 that didn't match up.

[jp the roadgeek]

The southbound exit can be numbered as Exit 6 because it is at I-95 MP 6

[jeffandnicole]

The southbound exit can be numbered as Exit 6 because it is at I-95 MP 6

The Turnpike doesn't use Mileposts to mark their exit numbers. You can't (or shouldn't) have a mixture of milepost exit numbers and consecutive exit numbers on the same highway.

Also, I mentioned the ticket system.  If someone got on at Interchange 6, it would show on the ticket as "No U-Turn" for Exit 6...so there's a confliction by reusing Exit 6.

[roadman65]

The southbound exit can be numbered as Exit 6 because it is at I-95 MP 6

Also the rest of the turnpike is still using sequenced based exit numbers, and the turnpike mainline will always use the mile posts starting at zero which is near or at NJ Route 49 in Pennsville.

[Alps]

I dont know if it was mentioned in the discussion of the signing of Exit 6, but from the extension it is no longer signed as a split. It's now an unnumbered right exit for the Turnpike south/Camden, which makes sense within the context of the former unnumbered left exit becoming the signed I-95 mainline

Also I wonder if this will eventually be known as Exit 6 as well or if it will stay unnumbered

I don't think anything really changed here.  And based on today's exit/interchange numbers, it can't be signed as Exit 6 due to the ticket system used. Exit 6 is for the extension. Someone looking at their toll ticket (who am I kidding...no one looks at them) would be confused if there was another Exit 6 that didn't match up.

I don't see why it can't be signed exit 6 from that direction. There's no conflicting information.

[jeffandnicole]

I dont know if it was mentioned in the discussion of the signing of Exit 6, but from the extension it is no longer signed as a split. It's now an unnumbered right exit for the Turnpike south/Camden, which makes sense within the context of the former unnumbered left exit becoming the signed I-95 mainline

Also I wonder if this will eventually be known as Exit 6 as well or if it will stay unnumbered

I don't think anything really changed here.  And based on today's exit/interchange numbers, it can't be signed as Exit 6 due to the ticket system used. Exit 6 is for the extension. Someone looking at their toll ticket (who am I kidding...no one looks at them) would be confused if there was another Exit 6 that didn't match up.

I don't see why it can't be signed exit 6 from that direction. There's no conflicting information.

Using this random website: http://www.alpsroads.net/roads/nj/i-95/ , a motorist entering the Turnpike from the Pennsylvania Turnpike would receive a toll ticket that states "6 - Pennsylvania Turnpike - NO U-TURN".  Providing an Exit 6 just after receiving a toll ticket would seem to be very conflicting information. 

And remember...a traveler entering the Turnpike is provided no information that they are entering a specific interchange number, so they may be unaware that they entered at Interchange 6.

[NJRoadfan]

Once they go ETC, It'll be a moot point anyway. Alot of this annoying exit numbering exists solely because each entry/exit needs a unique number (Exit 15X anyone?). Mile based exits should appear around the time they finally switch.

[jeffandnicole]

Once they go ETC, It'll be a moot point anyway....

I think there's a 0% chance of that happening in the next 5 years, and almost no chance of it in the next 10 years.

[roadman65]

I believe that it could work out that way, but you would have to have two sets of exit numbers.  The one's from the southern terminus to present day Exit 6 and those going northward with the scheme of I-95 from the border.

However, we must take note the KTA in Kansas has one set of exit numbers for the whole length of the Turnpike in that state with four separate interstate routes.    In fact I-70 is most awkward as it has numbers way up that get suspended when it joins the toll road at Topeka.  The numbers drop down as I-70 has much more mileage prior to the junction of the Turnpike then the turnpike has from the Oklahoma State Line.   Then once the closed system ends the I-70 exit numbers and mileage continue.

So Jeff has a point its more of the ticket system creating the issue as with the Kansas Turnpike it shows that their reason for not changing the mileage and exits each route number change is due to the closed tolling hence the free turnpike section on I-70 getting to use that interstate's exits and mileage.

[vdeane]

If I were to renumber the NJ Turnpike, I'd base it on the currently posted mileage, P prefixes optional for I-95 to PA.  I-95 near NY would just use the Turnpike mileage (as the mile markers do now) so the numbers don't jump twice.

[jp the roadgeek]

The southbound exit can be numbered as Exit 6 because it is at I-95 MP 6

The Turnpike doesn't use Mileposts to mark their exit numbers. You can't (or shouldn't) have a mixture of milepost exit numbers and consecutive exit numbers on the same highway.

Also, I mentioned the ticket system.  If someone got on at Interchange 6, it would show on the ticket as "No U-Turn" for Exit 6...so there's a confliction by reusing Exit 6.

When the NJTP goes to AET, you won't have as much confusion.  You won't have to worry as much about unnumbered Exit 6A becoming I-95 Exit 3 because it would be confused with mainline Exit 3.  Maybe then the Turnpike Commission should consider converting since the confusion the ticket system would cause would no longer exist.

[jeffandnicole]

Also, just for comparisons sake, the PA Turnpike has the same issue with the Northeast Extension. In their case, exiting from the PA Turnpike mainline (I-276) onto the Northeast Extension (I-476 North) does not have an exit number either.

[jemacedo9]

Also, just for comparisons sake, the PA Turnpike has the same issue with the Northeast Extension. In their case, exiting from the PA Turnpike mainline (I-276) onto the Northeast Extension (I-476 North) does not have an exit number either.

Even better, headed southbound on the NE Extension I-476, the exits to I-276 either direction are not numbered, but continuing straight on I-476 South IS labeled at Exit 20 | Mid-County, with left exit tabs.

[cpzilliacus]

In my earlier reply to vdeane, I should have also mentioned that one solution to this whole debate about east-west vs. north-south could be "solved" by just not listing cardinal directions at all on the signs, as is the practice on the German Autobahns. They just show the route shield and usually several destinations and that seems to be acceptable in that part of Europe.

In the early days of the  Capital Beltway, Maryland did not sign directions either.  IMO that is the right approach.   The easternmost parts of I-64 in the Hampton Roads area of Virginia are not signed either (it runs "backwards" there).

[Alps]

Also, just for comparisons sake, the PA Turnpike has the same issue with the Northeast Extension. In their case, exiting from the PA Turnpike mainline (I-276) onto the Northeast Extension (I-476 North) does not have an exit number either.

Even better, headed southbound on the NE Extension I-476, the exits to I-276 either direction are not numbered, but continuing straight on I-476 South IS labeled at Exit 20 | Mid-County, with left exit tabs.

The Mid-County toll plaza itself is Exit 20, is why. Since you otherwise stay in the toll system, an exit number would never show up on a toll ticket. But it still should be signed somehow.

[MASTERNC]

Also, just for comparisons sake, the PA Turnpike has the same issue with the Northeast Extension. In their case, exiting from the PA Turnpike mainline (I-276) onto the Northeast Extension (I-476 North) does not have an exit number either.

Even better, headed southbound on the NE Extension I-476, the exits to I-276 either direction are not numbered, but continuing straight on I-476 South IS labeled at Exit 20 | Mid-County, with left exit tabs.

I never understood why they couldn't use a split exit number for Mid-County on a toll ticket (say 334/20).  Going from Exit 339 to Exit 20 on WB I-276 is weird.  It would be better if Mid-County were Exit 334 on the mainline Turnpike and Exit 20 on the NE Extension.

[bzakharin]

Also, just for comparisons sake, the PA Turnpike has the same issue with the Northeast Extension. In their case, exiting from the PA Turnpike mainline (I-276) onto the Northeast Extension (I-476 North) does not have an exit number either.

Even better, headed southbound on the NE Extension I-476, the exits to I-276 either direction are not numbered, but continuing straight on I-476 South IS labeled at Exit 20 | Mid-County, with left exit tabs.

NJ Turnpike does the same type of thing with the Newark Bay extension. If you're going West, the continuation of I-78 is signed as Exit 14. And up until recently, the "exit" for it from the main line didn't have its own exit number. The sign said "Exits 14, 14A, 14B, 14C". It was only recently condensed into an exit tab that says "Exits 14-14C". That still treats the Newark Bay extension as a giant exit ramp. And I could have sworn that the mid-county interchange had a list of exit numbers for all movements within the toll zone in the same way.