Fire closes part of US 101 and 110 in downtown LA

[skluth]

SignBridge is correct in that there is a maximum guide sign height of 120 inches in California which greatly limits what can be done about the far-right sign.  Earlier in this discussion I posted this redesign of the entry gantry...



... which moved the I-5 north information from the CA-110 pull-through to it's own 2 mile advance guide sign and tried to deal with the mass of shields on the 101 south exit sign.

I agree with sparker that this is a great design. The left side points out there is a left exit for I-5 in two miles which is not too soon a warning especially in an urban area. However, I prefer the next sign for the right half.

But I had also created other alternatives which were posted in the Redesign This discussion on the Road Related Illustrations sub-forum...



This redesign moves the I-10/CA-60 information onto it's own supplemental guide sign which basically says "TO I-10 and CA-60 USE US-101 South" while the US 101 South exit sign gets a "To I-5 South" and a control city of Santa Ana. The only issue I have with this redesign is the pull-through which puts the "TO I-5 North" to the right of the CA-110 shield.  It's misleading because the I-5 north exit is a left exit.  Also, there's no room for exit numbers.

The loss of exit number on the right isn't ideal though it might be possible to squeeze it in the upper left corner of the US 101 North Ventura sign much like you have the left exit I-5 sign in the prior example. I really like that as long as I know which highway I'm using it quickly directs me where to go. The control cities are also exactly what I'd be looking for. I'm not too keen on "To HWY X" signs in the first place, but this has a nice layout with "To I-5 North" and "To I-5 South" both distinct and "To CA 60 and I-10" off to the side but clear enough that drivers aren't trying to parse cardinal directions into it.

I'm probably less familiar with most other posters on this topic. I'm only vaguely familiar with the area and have only been following the Southwest forum for a few months as I prepare to move to the region. So there may be other reasons for how to design the signs at this location. But I would find this combination most useful from my experience. It could be prior signs have already done a better job at making sure drivers are aligned in the correct lanes (provided they're paying attention in the first place).

[sparker]

Still like the idea for 110 north with the supplemental left-side reference to the I-5 north exit in 2 miles rather than including the I-5 shield on the main 110 pull-through.  However, the US 101 ramp signage as pictured above also has quite a bit of merit, as SB US 101 actually terminates at and merges with I-5 toward Santa Ana -- and the main ramp sign suggests that.  Placing I-10 & CA 60 on a supplemental sign is more than adequate for this particular location -- as I've iterated previously, 110 crossed I-10 only a couple of miles south of this location, and traffic originating south of downtown L.A. would have turned onto I-10 at that point; mentioning CA 60 on any signage in or near the downtown "slots" on 101 or 110 is simply icing on the cake.  I've always thought that CA 60 deserved at least trailblazer mention at the NB I-110 approach to the I-10/110 interchange (apparently Caltrans has disagreed with me for some 50+ years now -- at least prior to 2012, the last time I was through there). 

[TheStranger]

I've always thought that CA 60 deserved at least trailblazer mention at the NB I-110 approach to the I-10/110 interchange (apparently Caltrans has disagreed with me for some 50+ years now -- at least prior to 2012, the last time I was through there). 

In that vein, here's an idle thought I just had:

That "TO 10 60" type sign in the post you quoted...I could totally see a "TO 5 SOUTH/60 EAST - USE 10 EAST" sign in that style being useful for northbound 110 travelers approaching the Santa Monica Freeway.

[sparker]

I've always thought that CA 60 deserved at least trailblazer mention at the NB I-110 approach to the I-10/110 interchange (apparently Caltrans has disagreed with me for some 50+ years now -- at least prior to 2012, the last time I was through there). 

In that vein, here's an idle thought I just had:

That "TO 10 60" type sign in the post you quoted...I could totally see a "TO 5 SOUTH/60 EAST - USE 10 EAST" sign in that style being useful for northbound 110 travelers approaching the Santa Monica Freeway.

Splendid idea -- that would essentially encompass all three freeway-bound destinations available by utilizing I-10 east to the ELA interchange. 

[skluth]

Still like the idea for 110 north with the supplemental left-side reference to the I-5 north exit in 2 miles rather than including the I-5 shield on the main 110 pull-through.  However, the US 101 ramp signage as pictured above also has quite a bit of merit, as SB US 101 actually terminates at and merges with I-5 toward Santa Ana -- and the main ramp sign suggests that.  Placing I-10 & CA 60 on a supplemental sign is more than adequate for this particular location -- as I've iterated previously, 110 crossed I-10 only a couple of miles south of this location, and traffic originating south of downtown L.A. would have turned onto I-10 at that point; mentioning CA 60 on any signage in or near the downtown "slots" on 101 or 110 is simply icing on the cake.  I've always thought that CA 60 deserved at least trailblazer mention at the NB I-110 approach to the I-10/110 interchange (apparently Caltrans has disagreed with me for some 50+ years now -- at least prior to 2012, the last time I was through there).

I completely agree on that left exit I-5 for the left half. I'd splice the two options pictured with the first pic's left side and the second pic's right side for the sign (with somehow squeezing the exit number into the right side).

[mrsman]

Earlier in this discussion I posted this redesign of the entry gantry...



... which moved the I-5 north information from the CA-110 pull-through to it's own 2 mile advance guide sign and tried to deal with the mass of shields on the 101 south exit sign.

That is the optimal sign arrangement, IMHO.  One thing to remember about this section of CA 110 is that it's only 2 miles north of the actual 10/110 interchange; the control city of San Bernardino (and, IIRC, Santa Ana as well) is posted there.  Downtown L.A. traffic getting on NB 110 these days is more likely to stay on 110 north toward NB I-5 or turn north on US 101 toward Hollywood and the San Fernando Valley; if they're heading (cardinal direction) SB on US 101 toward the San Bernardino Split, they're likely to get on that freeway near the Civic Center rather than head due west only to make a U-turn east (unless they're somewhere around Figueroa anyway!).  Control cities for SB 101 at that point are hardly necessary -- at least since the traffic reports reference the route number rather than the freeway name (which in this instance coincides with the control city) -- and since neither of the destination freeways are 101 (it's merely a means to an end at this point!), even that number is functionally superfluous except for identification of what is essentially a very long ramp!

I agree.  The combination of those two illustrations seems ideal.  Every direction has at least one control city.  You are told that you have to keep left for I-5 north and you are told that you have to use the 101 ramp to reach I-5 south.  (There is no ramp at the Elysian Park interchange).

And yes, it is also necessary to have mention of these highways at the 10/110 interchange as well.  We want drivers to get where they are going in the most direct way.  If you are coming from the 110 well south of Downtown and want to reach the I-5 Santa Ana Fwy or the 60 Pomona Fwy, you should take I-10 to get there and not take a long tour around Downtown by way of the 101.  If your destination is along the I-10 San Bernardino Freeway, you have a choice of whether you should use I-10 through the East LA interchange or 101 through the 4-level and SB Split.  Or even better, taking the 10 and then the 60 and then using a connecting N-S freeway to reach the I-10 as far east as you can (i.e. 60 to 710 to 10 or 60 to 605 to 10, etc.)  And here's the real secret, if your destination is really far east (Palm Springs, Arizona, Texas, Florida) just take the 60 all the way to the 10 and do not make any transition at all.  Most of the lanes on the Santa Monica Fwy lead you to the 60, do not simply follow hte 10 trailblazer, take the 60 all the way east and don't further clog up the narrow transition ramps that exist in all of these Downtown interchanges.

[myosh_tino]

That is the optimal sign arrangement, IMHO.  One thing to remember about this section of CA 110 is that it's only 2 miles north of the actual 10/110 interchange...

I agree.  The combination of those two illustrations seems ideal.  Every direction has at least one control city.  You are told that you have to keep left for I-5 north and you are told that you have to use the 101 ramp to reach I-5 south.  (There is no ramp at the Elysian Park interchange).

OK guys.  Here's the combination of the two sign drawings...



The only concern I have is with regards to message loading because there are 5 guide signs on this one gantry. But as I was composing this post, I asked myself why not combine the South 101 exit sign and the auxiliary (TO 10/60 USE 101 SOUTH) into a single sign.  The added benefit is that I am now able to add exit numbers to both 101 signs...



Note: In an attempt to head off comments about both 101 exits having the same exit number, that is how it is done in California when there's a downstream split after the divergence from the mainline.  Only the initial divergence is numbered.  What happens further down the ramp is irrelevant.

[mrsman]

Ah caltrans!  You finally come around to exit numbers 50 years late and you still do it wrong.



I really like your latest sign myosh.  My only (small) regret is that there is no way to include San Bernardino as well.

The old sign (1960's to 2000's) looked like this:

5 Santa Ana
10 San Bernardino
v   TRUCK RTE v

This could be improved like this:

101 to 5 Santa Ana
           10 San Bernardino
v   TRUCK RTE v

(For some unknown reason, the downstream sign, which is still posted, reverses the order of 5 and 10.  Which one should take precedence?  It doesn't matter to me as long as both are signed at the sign.)

And I am indifferent on the 60.  I don't think that any traffic from the 110 should ever use the 101 to reach the 60 so I could totally leave it out from these signs.

But again, thank you.  Your sign is so much better than what currently exists. 


What is really odd is looking at the sign from 110 southbound (coming from Pasadena).  It seems that the 1960's era signs did not mention San Bernardino at all, which is really strange.  It would be terrible to route traffic along through Downtown to the 10 to only go back north along the 5/10 to reach San Bernardino Fwy.  It really should be mentioned here as well.

All in all, I believe that all the highways of the East LA Interchange should get a mention from every conceivable vantage point from the 110 freeway - but lets keep 60 traffic off the 101.

Elysian Park Interchange:  I-5 south to 10 east and 60 Santa Ana (signed along I-5 mainline and 110 south to I-5 ramp).

4-level interchange:  as discussed above over multiple posts.  US 101 south to 5 and 10 Santa Ana San Bernardino.  Signed from 110 south, 110 north, and 101 south mainline.

Harbor/Santa Monica interchange (some call it the Harmonica, but I shudder at the term):  I-10 east to 5 south and 60 San Bernardino (signed along 110 south, 110 north, and I-10 mainline).

[myosh_tino]

This could be improved like this:

101 to 5 Santa Ana
           10 San Bernardino
v   TRUCK RTE v

But you have to include the cardinal directions for both 101 and 5 because you have other signs on the same gantry with the same route shields.  Not doing so may cause confusion and ambiguity.

However, adding the cardinal directions will make laying out the sign next to impossible due to the 120-inch sign height limit.



The lighter green areas are the extensions to the sign panel to make everything fit (and look halfway reasonable).

[mrsman]

You are right.

It is interesting that there is no requirement for the cardinal direction for 10 and 60.  I understand that there is no mention of 10 west over here, but at the same time would an unsuspecting person possibly think that they could take the righthhand ramp and reach the Santa Monica Fwy?

Without mentioning EAST or San Bernardino, there could be grounds for confusion on that point.

[TheStranger]

You are right.

It is interesting that there is no requirement for the cardinal direction for 10 and 60.  I understand that there is no mention of 10 west over here, but at the same time would an unsuspecting person possibly think that they could take the righthhand ramp and reach the Santa Monica Fwy?

Without mentioning EAST or San Bernardino, there could be grounds for confusion on that point.

Here's some theory that came to mind as I've been reading this thread:

While it is absolutely true that most drivers heading to Santa Monica from 110 would have already been doing so southbound, I feel like the signage here is to provide drivers who either have better access to northbound ramps (i.e. primarily along Figueroa Street and Bunker Hill in downtown) of the Harbor Freeway, or are forced into taking them due to traffic, a reminder that they aren't out of options for getting onto 10 East and 60 East.  So I think that's why 10 is even mentioned at all.

While not mentioning a 10 cardinal direction isn't ideal for the Four-Level, 10 west (Santa Monica Freeway) can be accessed indirectly via 101 south if one switches over at 4th Street.

[skluth]

That is the optimal sign arrangement, IMHO.  One thing to remember about this section of CA 110 is that it's only 2 miles north of the actual 10/110 interchange...

I agree.  The combination of those two illustrations seems ideal.  Every direction has at least one control city.  You are told that you have to keep left for I-5 north and you are told that you have to use the 101 ramp to reach I-5 south.  (There is no ramp at the Elysian Park interchange).

OK guys.  Here's the combination of the two sign drawings...



The only concern I have is with regards to message loading because there are 5 guide signs on this one gantry. But as I was composing this post, I asked myself why not combine the South 101 exit sign and the auxiliary (TO 10/60 USE 101 SOUTH) into a single sign.  The added benefit is that I am now able to add exit numbers to both 101 signs...



Note: In an attempt to head off comments about both 101 exits having the same exit number, that is how it is done in California when there's a downstream split after the divergence from the mainline.  Only the initial divergence is numbered.  What happens further down the ramp is irrelevant.

The problem with combining the two right signs is now there is an implied Southbound I-10 and CA-60. We're all aware that there is no southbound for either highway. However, casual drivers might get confused.

Since there is an I-10 exit a couple miles earlier, I wonder whether the best solution is to eliminate any signs for I-10 and CA-60 here but instead have a separate earlier sign saying something like "San Bernardino - use US 101 South." Once on US 101, there already are signs directing drivers to I-10 San Bernardino.

[mrsman]

That is the optimal sign arrangement, IMHO.  One thing to remember about this section of CA 110 is that it's only 2 miles north of the actual 10/110 interchange...

I agree.  The combination of those two illustrations seems ideal.  Every direction has at least one control city.  You are told that you have to keep left for I-5 north and you are told that you have to use the 101 ramp to reach I-5 south.  (There is no ramp at the Elysian Park interchange).

OK guys.  Here's the combination of the two sign drawings...



The only concern I have is with regards to message loading because there are 5 guide signs on this one gantry. But as I was composing this post, I asked myself why not combine the South 101 exit sign and the auxiliary (TO 10/60 USE 101 SOUTH) into a single sign.  The added benefit is that I am now able to add exit numbers to both 101 signs...



Note: In an attempt to head off comments about both 101 exits having the same exit number, that is how it is done in California when there's a downstream split after the divergence from the mainline.  Only the initial divergence is numbered.  What happens further down the ramp is irrelevant.

The problem with combining the two right signs is now there is an implied Southbound I-10 and CA-60. We're all aware that there is no southbound for either highway. However, casual drivers might get confused.

Since there is an I-10 exit a couple miles earlier, I wonder whether the best solution is to eliminate any signs for I-10 and CA-60 here but instead have a separate earlier sign saying something like "San Bernardino - use US 101 South." Once on US 101, there already are signs directing drivers to I-10 San Bernardino.

The only reason that there are still signs for San Bernardino on mainline 101 and from 110 is because Caltrans did not update all of the signs in the area.  By combining the old set of signs with the new set of signs, we get all the information we need as drivers.

The signs for San Bernardino are to help people who have entered the 110 from Downtown (8th, 5th ,3rd).  Most will take 110 north from those entrances to reach the San Bernardino Freeway and most will take 110 south to reach the I-5 Santa Ana or Pomona Freeways.  Given the geography, I would assume that the majority of people taking the 110 north to 101 south ramp actually continue on the San Bernardino Freeway and don't head toward Santa Ana.

You are right that people coming from south of I-10 will take I-10 to reach Pomona, Santa Ana, and San Bernardino.