MassPike AET discussion

[PHLBOS]

This reminds me of the way MD-200 is set up.  Except MD-200 has a gantry on the mainline between every exit, which from what I'm reading the Mass Pike does not have?  I don't live in Mass anymore so I haven't had a chance to look at the Pike since the transition to AET.

It's between most exits, but exits 4-7 are free.

You mean exists 1-6, don't you?

Nope.  Tolls were re-established along that stretch about 3 years ago.

[Beeper1]

Between exits 10 and 11 is also free.

[PHLBOS]

Between exits 10 and 11 is also free.

Already mentioned.  See Reply #173 on the previous page of this thread.

[cl94]

I can't confirm this, because I have only been west of Lee since the changeover, but how the toll is shown on my statement makes it appear that they're just going to say the first gantry and the last gantry you pass in a single line (looks like a ticket system entry) instead of an individual line for each barrier.

[PHLBOS]

I can't confirm this, because I have only been west of Lee since the changeover, but how the toll is shown on my statement makes it appear that they're just going to say the first gantry and the last gantry you pass in a single line (looks like a ticket system entry) instead of an individual line for each barrier.

I just checked my E-Z Pass transaction record for my Thanksgiving week trips (I drove from Sturbridge to Weston) and noticed similar.

To add, the gantry listings on my statement are listed as Massachusetts DOT - XXX under the Entry and Exit headings. 

My eastbound Sturbridge to Weston trip list 083 and 120 for the respective first (Entry) and final (Exit) gantries I passed through.  I'm assuming that those numbers correspond to the mile markers.

My westbound Weston to Sturbridge trip list 620 and 583 for the respective first (Entry) and final (Exit) gantries I passed through.  As a means of distinguishing the eastbound gantries from the westbound gantries; the numbers for the latter correspond to the mile markers +500.

[Alps]

Why even post the signs? You're getting billed by mail. "TOLL" is all you need there.

Perhaps it has something to do with the huge stink the media made when the final toll rates were first announced - and the fact that the overall "per mile" toll you pay varies depending on which section of the Pike you drive.  Of course, nobody has bothered to question why MassDOT chose to set the current system up as a group of independent barrier tolls instead of mimicking the previous ticket system - which IMO would have made far more sense.

To supplement Roadman's response & as observed on other mainline-located AET facilities (Tobin Bridge, Tappan Zee Bridge, PA Turnpike just prior to the Delaware River), the toll rates are at a set price(s) and one should have the right to know what they're being charged prior to the gantry regardless of whether they're billed by mail or E-Z Pass.  As I stated earlier; it's a matter of principle & common decency (not to mention good business practice).

Conversely, I look at it as a relic of the system when you needed to know how much money to take out, and now people are coming up with reasons to back-justify keeping the rate around. If toll highways were invented with automatic toll collection/billing capabilities, it's plausible they never would have posted rates.

[kalvado]

Why even post the signs? You're getting billed by mail. "TOLL" is all you need there.

Perhaps it has something to do with the huge stink the media made when the final toll rates were first announced - and the fact that the overall "per mile" toll you pay varies depending on which section of the Pike you drive.  Of course, nobody has bothered to question why MassDOT chose to set the current system up as a group of independent barrier tolls instead of mimicking the previous ticket system - which IMO would have made far more sense.

To supplement Roadman's response & as observed on other mainline-located AET facilities (Tobin Bridge, Tappan Zee Bridge, PA Turnpike just prior to the Delaware River), the toll rates are at a set price(s) and one should have the right to know what they're being charged prior to the gantry regardless of whether they're billed by mail or E-Z Pass.  As I stated earlier; it's a matter of principle & common decency (not to mention good business practice).

Conversely, I look at it as a relic of the system when you needed to know how much money to take out, and now people are coming up with reasons to back-justify keeping the rate around. If toll highways were invented with automatic toll collection/billing capabilities, it's plausible they never would have posted rates.

And given that most people pay with some sort of card, grocery stores may stop posting prices... Gas stations should also be allowed not to post any rates... Right?

[kefkafloyd]

The tolls should be posted, but unless you remember what each barrier was while driving, it's probably going to be hard to know exactly what it is. I believe those signs should be larger and better posted.

For EZpass users, it's about the same, but for cash users it will definitely be a change.

[Alps]

Why even post the signs? You're getting billed by mail. "TOLL" is all you need there.

Perhaps it has something to do with the huge stink the media made when the final toll rates were first announced - and the fact that the overall "per mile" toll you pay varies depending on which section of the Pike you drive.  Of course, nobody has bothered to question why MassDOT chose to set the current system up as a group of independent barrier tolls instead of mimicking the previous ticket system - which IMO would have made far more sense.

To supplement Roadman's response & as observed on other mainline-located AET facilities (Tobin Bridge, Tappan Zee Bridge, PA Turnpike just prior to the Delaware River), the toll rates are at a set price(s) and one should have the right to know what they're being charged prior to the gantry regardless of whether they're billed by mail or E-Z Pass.  As I stated earlier; it's a matter of principle & common decency (not to mention good business practice).

Conversely, I look at it as a relic of the system when you needed to know how much money to take out, and now people are coming up with reasons to back-justify keeping the rate around. If toll highways were invented with automatic toll collection/billing capabilities, it's plausible they never would have posted rates.

And given that most people pay with some sort of card, grocery stores may stop posting prices... Gas stations should also be allowed not to post any rates... Right?

Those are choices you make based on the posted rate. The toll road, you're already on it. You could post a series of signs at entrances or at intervals along the road with an approximate rate.

[kalvado]

And given that most people pay with some sort of card, grocery stores may stop posting prices... Gas stations should also be allowed not to post any rates... Right?

Those are choices you make based on the posted rate. The toll road, you're already on it. You could post a series of signs at entrances or at intervals along the road with an approximate rate.

I would say that the fact I am on the road doesn't mean I cannot take the next exit and shunpike. Or that I will be driving same toll road on return. Or that I wouldn't be hit with a nasty surprise at the end of the month when the bill comes in.

I believe providing price - or estimate - upfront is a matter of business ethics when dealing with regular consumer, and doing otherwise is a sign of fraud. And I am always irritated with Thruway approach to EZpass billing, when toll is not known for several days after the fact - even as I know approximate toll way beforehand.

[Pete from Boston]

Why even post the signs? You're getting billed by mail. "TOLL" is all you need there.

Perhaps it has something to do with the huge stink the media made when the final toll rates were first announced - and the fact that the overall "per mile" toll you pay varies depending on which section of the Pike you drive.  Of course, nobody has bothered to question why MassDOT chose to set the current system up as a group of independent barrier tolls instead of mimicking the previous ticket system - which IMO would have made far more sense.

To supplement Roadman's response & as observed on other mainline-located AET facilities (Tobin Bridge, Tappan Zee Bridge, PA Turnpike just prior to the Delaware River), the toll rates are at a set price(s) and one should have the right to know what they're being charged prior to the gantry regardless of whether they're billed by mail or E-Z Pass.  As I stated earlier; it's a matter of principle & common decency (not to mention good business practice).

Conversely, I look at it as a relic of the system when you needed to know how much money to take out, and now people are coming up with reasons to back-justify keeping the rate around. If toll highways were invented with automatic toll collection/billing capabilities, it's plausible they never would have posted rates.

And given that most people pay with some sort of card, grocery stores may stop posting prices... Gas stations should also be allowed not to post any rates... Right?

Those are choices you make based on the posted rate. The toll road, you're already on it. You could post a series of signs at entrances or at intervals along the road with an approximate rate.

You could post that before the option to enter, which is the reasonable thing to do (few transactions I can think of involve announcing the price after the purchase had been committed to). 

If we're tossing that idea, there are fewer gantries than entrances.  It's cheaper to post the rate at the gantry.

Given the general newness of this method of tolling in the US, I figure adjustments in approach will be made.

[jeffandnicole]

Given the general newness of this method of tolling in the US, I figure adjustments in approach will be made.

General newness...In Mass.

It's been used for years elsewhere within the United States.

And EZ Pass tolling itself has been used for 15 - 20 years within the states where one doesn't know their exact toll. 

[tckma]

I can't confirm this, because I have only been west of Lee since the changeover, but how the toll is shown on my statement makes it appear that they're just going to say the first gantry and the last gantry you pass in a single line (looks like a ticket system entry) instead of an individual line for each barrier.

Similar to what I've seen on my whopping two trips along MD-200 since it opened (it really IS a useless road).  My E-Z Pass statement shows a single line listing the first and last gantries crossed.

[tckma]

Why even post the signs? You're getting billed by mail. "TOLL" is all you need there.

Perhaps it has something to do with the huge stink the media made when the final toll rates were first announced - and the fact that the overall "per mile" toll you pay varies depending on which section of the Pike you drive.  Of course, nobody has bothered to question why MassDOT chose to set the current system up as a group of independent barrier tolls instead of mimicking the previous ticket system - which IMO would have made far more sense.

To supplement Roadman's response & as observed on other mainline-located AET facilities (Tobin Bridge, Tappan Zee Bridge, PA Turnpike just prior to the Delaware River), the toll rates are at a set price(s) and one should have the right to know what they're being charged prior to the gantry regardless of whether they're billed by mail or E-Z Pass.  As I stated earlier; it's a matter of principle & common decency (not to mention good business practice).

Conversely, I look at it as a relic of the system when you needed to know how much money to take out, and now people are coming up with reasons to back-justify keeping the rate around. If toll highways were invented with automatic toll collection/billing capabilities, it's plausible they never would have posted rates.

No.  Regardless of whether I'm paying for ANYthing by cash, credit card, debit card, E-ZPass, or wampum... I have a right to know how much I will be charged BEFORE I spend the money.  That's how a free market economy works.  If a consumer isn't willing to pay, they'll get the service elsewhere (shunpike).  Most toll roads' websites these days have a toll calculator you can use based on entry and exit points to show how much you will be charged before your trip, if not even explicitly publishing things like "the toll rate is x cents per mile per axle."  On systems with variable toll rates, such as MD-200, or the Lexus Lanes on the I-495 Capital Beltway, I-95 in Northern Virginia, and the pointless new HOT lanes on I-95 north of Baltimore, there are signs displaying the toll rate BEFORE you drive into the tolled section and have to make a choice whether it's worth it to pay the toll or not -- and those rates are guaranteed to you at the time of entry.  Additionally, these areas have signage on the road showing tolls to upcoming sections near where there's a choice to exit the tolled section or not.

Similarly, when I recently took a business trip to California, I used posted toll rates on websites such as http://www.thetollroads.com to inform my decision whether to open a Fast Track account before my trip, buy a Fast Track tag once in CA, or screw it and pay by plate with the rental car.  I chose to open a Fast Track account before I left for CA and mail back the transponder and close my account after I came back, as this was the lowest cost option in case my company decided to be cheap and not reimburse me for tolls incurred during my trip.  (They did reimburse me, but it was a worry of mine, as they still haven't fully paid my AMEX bill two months later even with an approved expense report.)

Posting the toll rates right before or right after the gantry, when you've already committed, is kind of stupid if they are not also posted at decision points along the road.  I'm fine with the signs being there as reminders in case you've forgotten the rates, but as the only signage?  No.

[DrSmith]

I don't see why it matters if it is signed after the gantry. You were warned before you got on with the yellow toll banner so you committed to paying the toll already. Signing prices before toll plazas I think is mainly to tell you how much cash to get out while you are waiting or digging in your seat cushions and looking through the sticky coins in your cup holder when attempting to swerve into whatever toll lane you think is fastest. However, by the time they have posted the actual price, you are committed to the toll plaza. Prior to that point, all you see are toll banners and such but no prices.

Plus for the pike you can still go online to the toll calculator prior to the trip. Not sure how it worked for the Mass Pike, but for the NJ Turnpike once you got the ticket with the prices, you were going to pay. A U-turn at the same plaza was going to cost you the maximum price for that exit, so it would be more than going just one exit up the road.

[vdeane]

Well, if you're on a ticket system, and find the price higher than expected, you can get off sooner than planned and shunpike the rest of the way.  On an AET road without prices listed, you can't do that since you won't know the price until several weeks after the trip is concluded.  You might even make more trips in the meantime before you even get a bill for the first one!

Imagine if you went to the grocery store, there were no prices listed.  At the checkout, they scan your items, but there is no amount owed, and instead of paying, you give them your driver's licence to scan.  Several weeks later, they mail you the bill.  Sounds crazy, but that's how we're doing toll roads now.

[kalvado]

Well, if you're on a ticket system, and find the price higher than expected, you can get off sooner than planned and shunpike the rest of the way.  On an AET road without prices listed, you can't do that since you won't know the price until several weeks after the trip is concluded.  You might even make more trips in the meantime before you even get a bill for the first one!

Imagine if you went to the grocery store, there were no prices listed.  At the checkout, they scan your items, but there is no amount owed, and instead of paying, you give them your driver's licence to scan.  Several weeks later, they mail you the bill.  Sounds crazy, but that's how we're doing toll roads now.

I assume the only argument towards not showing prices is the fact that in most cases it costs less than cost of gas, and is very likely not a show stopper for driver. Now with $10-15 tolls for NYC bridges that becomes shaky argument.

But for me its a matter of ethics more than any practical argument.

[Pete from Boston]

Well, if you're on a ticket system, and find the price higher than expected, you can get off sooner than planned and shunpike the rest of the way.  On an AET road without prices listed, you can't do that since you won't know the price until several weeks after the trip is concluded.  You might even make more trips in the meantime before you even get a bill for the first one!

Imagine if you went to the grocery store, there were no prices listed.  At the checkout, they scan your items, but there is no amount owed, and instead of paying, you give them your driver's licence to scan.  Several weeks later, they mail you the bill.  Sounds crazy, but that's how we're doing toll roads now.

I assume the only argument towards not showing prices is the fact that in most cases it costs less than cost of gas, and is very likely not a show stopper for driver. Now with $10-15 tolls for NYC bridges that becomes shaky argument.

But for me its a matter of ethics more than any practical argument.

The New York bridges are the red flags that make we want openness about stating the price.  The last Port Authority toll increases were railroaded through, something that only gets easier when the public gets desensitized to what they are paying.

[SidS1045]

I can't confirm this, because I have only been west of Lee since the changeover, but how the toll is shown on my statement makes it appear that they're just going to say the first gantry and the last gantry you pass in a single line (looks like a ticket system entry) instead of an individual line for each barrier.

I just checked my E-Z Pass transaction record for my Thanksgiving week trips (I drove from Sturbridge to Weston) and noticed similar.

To add, the gantry listings on my statement are listed as Massachusetts DOT - XXX under the Entry and Exit headings. 

My eastbound Sturbridge to Weston trip list 083 and 120 for the respective first (Entry) and final (Exit) gantries I passed through.  I'm assuming that those numbers correspond to the mile markers.

My westbound Weston to Sturbridge trip list 620 and 583 for the respective first (Entry) and final (Exit) gantries I passed through.  As a means of distinguishing the eastbound gantries from the westbound gantries; the numbers for the latter correspond to the mile markers +500.

My travels on the Turnpike take me on both the Metropolitan Highway System portion of the Turnpike (between I-95/MA 128 and the eastern end of the Turnpike in East Boston) and the so-called "western" Turnpike (between 128 and the NY border).  MHS tolls appear on my statement as one line for each tolling point passed.  Tolls on the western Turnpike appear as yours did, with one line showing the total between entry and exit points.

I also note that MassDOT is having some issues posting tolls to E-ZPass accounts in a timely manner.  My November statement shows postings of transactions from the last few days in October, both before and after the implementation date of AET, and the latest transaction to be posted on that statement took place on 11/23.  While in the past my credit card was used to replenish the balance on the account once a month, in November that occurred nine times, sometimes on balances as low as 35 cents.  Looks like they're still working out a few kinks.

[kefkafloyd]

I agree that they should show the toll prices, but you're pretty much committed to the turnpike once you get in either in the ticket or AET system. There's no way to broadcast all the potential AET toll combinations (unlike a ticket), so posting the tolls at the gantries (even if the signs are bigger) seem like a formality to me. Still, they should be posted.

[cl94]

I can't confirm this, because I have only been west of Lee since the changeover, but how the toll is shown on my statement makes it appear that they're just going to say the first gantry and the last gantry you pass in a single line (looks like a ticket system entry) instead of an individual line for each barrier.

I just checked my E-Z Pass transaction record for my Thanksgiving week trips (I drove from Sturbridge to Weston) and noticed similar.

To add, the gantry listings on my statement are listed as Massachusetts DOT - XXX under the Entry and Exit headings. 

My eastbound Sturbridge to Weston trip list 083 and 120 for the respective first (Entry) and final (Exit) gantries I passed through.  I'm assuming that those numbers correspond to the mile markers.

My westbound Weston to Sturbridge trip list 620 and 583 for the respective first (Entry) and final (Exit) gantries I passed through.  As a means of distinguishing the eastbound gantries from the westbound gantries; the numbers for the latter correspond to the mile markers +500.

My travels on the Turnpike take me on both the Metropolitan Highway System portion of the Turnpike (between I-95/MA 128 and the eastern end of the Turnpike in East Boston) and the so-called "western" Turnpike (between 128 and the NY border).  MHS tolls appear on my statement as one line for each tolling point passed.  Tolls on the western Turnpike appear as yours did, with one line showing the total between entry and exit points.

I also note that MassDOT is having some issues posting tolls to E-ZPass accounts in a timely manner.  My November statement shows postings of transactions from the last few days in October, both before and after the implementation date of AET, and the latest transaction to be posted on that statement took place on 11/23.  While in the past my credit card was used to replenish the balance on the account once a month, in November that occurred nine times, sometimes on balances as low as 35 cents.  Looks like they're still working out a few kinks.

MassDOT always took longer than other agencies to post tolls to the account. Even before the switch, it sometimes took a week for stuff to show up. Most states post it that day or the following day.

[PHLBOS]

I agree that they should show the toll prices, but you're pretty much committed to the turnpike once you get in either in the ticket or AET system. There's no way to broadcast all the potential AET toll combinations (unlike a ticket), so posting the tolls at the gantries (even if the signs are bigger) seem like a formality to me. Still, they should be posted.

My only comment, that triggered this whole discussion, was that the signs showing the toll prices should be placed prior to the gantry (they were initially) and should be bigger (easier to read at highway speeds). 

Every other agency that I'm aware of (including MassDOT at the southbound Tobin Bridge not too long ago) that does AET along the mainline corridor has done such.  I'm not suggesting a reinvention of the wheel here.

[Pete from Boston]

I noticed today that signs have been removed announcing a toll for the Allston "slingshot" turnoff, though the gantry is still there.

[spooky]

Someone should change the title of this thread to "MassPike AET Discussion".

[jp the roadgeek]

Someone should change the title of this thread to "MassPike AET Discussion".

FTFY