MassPike AET discussion

[PHLBOS]

Exit 10 will be more difficult. While eliminating the tollbooths will help, the narrow and curvy ramps for both MA 12 and the interstates there will be a problem. I will be interested in seeing what MassDOT will propose for a reconfigured interchange. There's no room without considerable land takings and environmental impact. I'm pretty sure they'll punt on it.

Aside from removing the tollbooths; I don't believe that MassDOT presently has any plans to overhaul/redesign this interchange.

[roadman]

Exit 10 will be more difficult. While eliminating the tollbooths will help, the narrow and curvy ramps for both MA 12 and the interstates there will be a problem. I will be interested in seeing what MassDOT will propose for a reconfigured interchange. There's no room without considerable land takings and environmental impact. I'm pretty sure they'll punt on it.

Aside from removing the tollbooths; I don't believe that MassDOT presently has any plans to overhaul/redesign this interchange.

That is correct.  The only work at the Interchange 10 location will be to demo the tollbooths and narrow/straighten the ramps through the old tollbooth area.  No work will be done to the ramps leading to I-290 and Route 12 themselves.

[bob7374]

MassDOT has created an online toll calculator to let people figure out how much they'll pay under the new system (or in my case, how much more I'll pay, for all the entry and exit points I entered):
http://www.massdot.state.ma.us/highway/TollCalculator.aspx

[cl94]

According to the calculator, out of state rates will stay the same in the ticket system. Good.

[Rothman]

Bit of a jump for the Ted Williams Tunnel.

[DrSmith]

Looks like they are putting down the initial spray paint markings on the pavement (which are faint) for when the toll booth demolition starts.

[Pete from Boston]

NYSTA gets that south of Newburgh, as do the TBTA crossings. NYSTA gets ~50% in the Buffalo area.

What I'd like to know here is the percentage of E-ZPass users from out of state. As the NY discount is huge compared to the current discount in just about any state other than Maine, most people in CT with E-ZPass as well as many in western Massachusetts have one from NYSTA or the MTA. A lot of the traffic past Worcester is out-of-state and, if these rates go through, a lot of them will bleed off to I-84, US 6, MA 2, US 20 and/or VT/NH 9. I know I'd seriously consider dealing with 2, 9, or 20 if I'm not in a rush.

I doubt it.  E-ZPass discourages price awareness–almost kills it entirely.   I don't think toll road demand is price elastic at this level anyway.

[Pete from Boston]

I went to one of the hearings tonight. They are absolutely maintaining the price increase for out-of-state drivers coupled with a price decrease for most in-state drivers.  These terms are not used, of course–no mention of a price increase of any kind comes up, just "revenue neutrality."

I asked what the justification for the shift was. I was told that it was the feeling of the presenter that people living in Massachusetts deserve a discount over other states' users.  I asked what "deserve" means given that the impact of a vehicle from Massachusetts versus that from another state is identical, but I did not get a satisfactory explanation.

I said E-ZPass works better with consistent regional standards rather than parochialism.  I probably should not have said that taking the opportunity to save ourselves a few pennies at the expense of others is juvenile, but that's how it feels to me.

Something else that was interesting was when I asked the folks signing up new Massachusetts E-ZPass members why the electronic transaction clearinghouse system wouldn't flag and reconcile simultaneous transactions by the same vehicle if I mounted two transponders.  Total deer-in-the-headlights reaction.  They suggested I take one of the static bags.  With two state troopers there, I said, "Wouldn't fiddling with the transponder on the road amount to illegally using a handheld electronic device?"  Everyone was sick of me at that point so I left.

[PHLBOS]

Something else that was interesting was when I asked the folks signing up new Massachusetts E-ZPass members why the electronic transaction clearinghouse system wouldn't flag and reconcile simultaneous transactions by the same vehicle if I mounted two transponders.  Total deer-in-the-headlights reaction.  They suggested I take one of the static bags.  With two state troopers there, I said, "Wouldn't fiddling with the transponder on the road amount to illegally using a handheld electronic device?"  Everyone was sick of me at that point so I left.

If memory serves, current Massachusetts law still allows drivers to use their cell phones (even hand-held ones) while in motion but texting while driving-while-driving is prohibited; I know, grey area and another topic for another thread.

Another question that would've certainly IMHO either caused another deer-in-the-headlight situation or formulate some double-talk from MassDOT would've been how long would it be until MassDOT started imposing an annual fee of its own for its E-ZPass accounts?  In the early years of E-ZPass, many agencies (DRPA & the NJ Consortium come to mind) didn't initially charge an annual or monthly fee either but such all changed when it was discovered (at least in the NJ Consortium's case) that agencies were actually losing revenue due to a surge in users taking advantage of the discounted E-ZPass rates vs. the higher cash rates (E-ZPass had just come to the NJ Turnpike around the same time a toll increase for initially cash users took effect).

Long story short, we could see history repeat itself in that regard and the current preaching of fee-less MassDOT E-ZPass accounts & transponders will ultimately turn out to be one great big lie long-term.

[Brandon]

NYSTA gets that south of Newburgh, as do the TBTA crossings. NYSTA gets ~50% in the Buffalo area.

What I'd like to know here is the percentage of E-ZPass users from out of state. As the NY discount is huge compared to the current discount in just about any state other than Maine, most people in CT with E-ZPass as well as many in western Massachusetts have one from NYSTA or the MTA. A lot of the traffic past Worcester is out-of-state and, if these rates go through, a lot of them will bleed off to I-84, US 6, MA 2, US 20 and/or VT/NH 9. I know I'd seriously consider dealing with 2, 9, or 20 if I'm not in a rush.

I doubt it.  E-ZPass discourages price awareness–almost kills it entirely.   I don't think toll road demand is price elastic at this level anyway.

Price awareness is still very much around with electronic tolling here.  People with I-Passes known they're half the price of cash tolls, and they the toll rates are posted prior to the plaza (for cash) and after the plaza (cash and I-Pass).  There's a reason over 87% of ISTHA users have an I-Pass (or E-Z Pass).

[Pete from Boston]

NYSTA gets that south of Newburgh, as do the TBTA crossings. NYSTA gets ~50% in the Buffalo area.

What I'd like to know here is the percentage of E-ZPass users from out of state. As the NY discount is huge compared to the current discount in just about any state other than Maine, most people in CT with E-ZPass as well as many in western Massachusetts have one from NYSTA or the MTA. A lot of the traffic past Worcester is out-of-state and, if these rates go through, a lot of them will bleed off to I-84, US 6, MA 2, US 20 and/or VT/NH 9. I know I'd seriously consider dealing with 2, 9, or 20 if I'm not in a rush.

I doubt it.  E-ZPass discourages price awareness–almost kills it entirely.   I don't think toll road demand is price elastic at this level anyway.

Price awareness is still very much around with electronic tolling here.  People with I-Passes known they're half the price of cash tolls, and they the toll rates are posted prior to the plaza (for cash) and after the plaza (cash and I-Pass).  There's a reason over 87% of ISTHA users have an I-Pass (or E-Z Pass).

I would be very surprised if many people that are not daily users can tell you what their tolls are under all electronic tolling

[cl94]

NYSTA gets that south of Newburgh, as do the TBTA crossings. NYSTA gets ~50% in the Buffalo area.

What I'd like to know here is the percentage of E-ZPass users from out of state. As the NY discount is huge compared to the current discount in just about any state other than Maine, most people in CT with E-ZPass as well as many in western Massachusetts have one from NYSTA or the MTA. A lot of the traffic past Worcester is out-of-state and, if these rates go through, a lot of them will bleed off to I-84, US 6, MA 2, US 20 and/or VT/NH 9. I know I'd seriously consider dealing with 2, 9, or 20 if I'm not in a rush.

I doubt it.  E-ZPass discourages price awareness–almost kills it entirely.   I don't think toll road demand is price elastic at this level anyway.

Price awareness is still very much around with electronic tolling here.  People with I-Passes known they're half the price of cash tolls, and they the toll rates are posted prior to the plaza (for cash) and after the plaza (cash and I-Pass).  There's a reason over 87% of ISTHA users have an I-Pass (or E-Z Pass).

I would be very surprised if many people that are not daily users can tell you what their tolls are under all electronic tolling

Depends on where you are. Many people, even those with E-ZPass, know that, on the Thruway, going to I-88 from Exits 24-26 is free.

[kefkafloyd]

Another question that would've certainly IMHO either caused another deer-in-the-headlight situation or formulate some double-talk from MassDOT would've been how long would it be until MassDOT started imposing an annual fee of its own for its E-ZPass accounts?  In the early years of E-ZPass, many agencies (DRPA & the NJ Consortium come to mind) didn't initially charge an annual or monthly fee either but such all changed when it was discovered (at least in the NJ Consortium's case) that agencies were actually losing revenue due to a surge in users taking advantage of the discounted E-ZPass rates vs. the higher cash rates (E-ZPass had just come to the NJ Turnpike around the same time a toll increase for initially cash users took effect).

They tried several years ago. When the price of transponders was reduced to "free" in 2009, the state was going to charge a 50 cent/month (or $6/year) annual fee on all account holders, even if they "paid for" their transponder (anyone before January 2009). The reaction was swift and negative, and the Turnpike Authority backed off very quickly a few months later in April after the disastrous easter backups that year. The fee never went into practice, as this was a few months before the July start date.

I do not expect them to repeat that public relations disaster with the impending implementation of AET.

[spooky]

Looks like they are targeting Oct 28th to go live - a VMS on the ramp from I-95 NB to the Pike seen this weekend stated something to the effect of "no cash after Oct 28" and advertised the EZPass MA website.

[kalvado]

Looks like they are targeting Oct 28th to go live - a VMS on the ramp from I-95 NB to the Pike seen this weekend stated something to the effect of "no cash after Oct 28" and advertised the EZPass MA website.

And you can see that at least some gantries are life - something is blinking as cars are passing underneath, probably license plates photos are taken.

I am a bit surprised to see a single set at each location - as far as I remember, IL tollway has a pair of structures, and I am not sure if Woodbury barrier on NYS Thruway has 2 or 3..

[jeffandnicole]

Looks like they are targeting Oct 28th to go live - a VMS on the ramp from I-95 NB to the Pike seen this weekend stated something to the effect of "no cash after Oct 28" and advertised the EZPass MA website.

And you can see that at least some gantries are life - something is blinking as cars are passing underneath, probably license plates photos are taken.

I am a bit surprised to see a single set at each location - as far as I remember, IL tollway has a pair of structures, and I am not sure if Woodbury barrier on NYS Thruway has 2 or 3..

That's usually the quick camera flash, or maybe a small LED light.  The AC Expressway keeps a light on all the time aimed at the license plate area, but at highway speeds it appears to be a flash, so it could be that as well.

And all of that is just a testing phase most likely at this point.

[kalvado]

Looks like they are targeting Oct 28th to go live - a VMS on the ramp from I-95 NB to the Pike seen this weekend stated something to the effect of "no cash after Oct 28" and advertised the EZPass MA website.

And you can see that at least some gantries are life - something is blinking as cars are passing underneath, probably license plates photos are taken.

I am a bit surprised to see a single set at each location - as far as I remember, IL tollway has a pair of structures, and I am not sure if Woodbury barrier on NYS Thruway has 2 or 3..

That's usually the quick camera flash, or maybe a small LED light.  The AC Expressway keeps a light on all the time aimed at the license plate area, but at highway speeds it appears to be a flash, so it could be that as well.

And all of that is just a testing phase most likely at this point.

I would expect IR cameras and IR flash - a visible flash in the eyes at highway speed is not quite nice, especially at night. And some of IR illuminators are slightly visible - and that is OK as long as they don't blind the driver. Actually I can see some remotes as slight red lights (you need complete darkness for that)
A bit strange that they are taking front picture - rear probably makes more sense (id EZpass didn't register,  then..  and some states still OK with one plate only). Maybe for tractor-trailers, where rear plate can belong to trailer? 

[PHLBOS]

Another question that would've certainly IMHO either caused another deer-in-the-headlight situation or formulate some double-talk from MassDOT would've been how long would it be until MassDOT started imposing an annual fee of its own for its E-ZPass accounts?  In the early years of E-ZPass, many agencies (DRPA & the NJ Consortium come to mind) didn't initially charge an annual or monthly fee either but such all changed when it was discovered (at least in the NJ Consortium's case) that agencies were actually losing revenue due to a surge in users taking advantage of the discounted E-ZPass rates vs. the higher cash rates (E-ZPass had just come to the NJ Turnpike around the same time a toll increase for initially cash users took effect).

They tried several years ago. When the price of transponders was reduced to "free" in 2009, the state was going to charge a 50 cent/month (or $6/year) annual fee on all account holders, even if they "paid for" their transponder (anyone before January 2009). The reaction was swift and negative, and the Turnpike Authority backed off very quickly a few months later in April after the disastrous easter backups that year. The fee never went into practice, as this was a few months before the July start date.

I do not expect them to repeat that public relations disaster with the impending implementation of AET.

Those backups that happened back then because the cash toll booths were still present.  A year or two from now, such won't be.  I'm not a betting man; but I'm willing that MassDOT (the Turnpike Authority has since merged into or become a division of MassDOT) will try to implement an annual fee about 2 years from now... mark my words.

[cl94]

Another question that would've certainly IMHO either caused another deer-in-the-headlight situation or formulate some double-talk from MassDOT would've been how long would it be until MassDOT started imposing an annual fee of its own for its E-ZPass accounts?  In the early years of E-ZPass, many agencies (DRPA & the NJ Consortium come to mind) didn't initially charge an annual or monthly fee either but such all changed when it was discovered (at least in the NJ Consortium's case) that agencies were actually losing revenue due to a surge in users taking advantage of the discounted E-ZPass rates vs. the higher cash rates (E-ZPass had just come to the NJ Turnpike around the same time a toll increase for initially cash users took effect).

They tried several years ago. When the price of transponders was reduced to "free" in 2009, the state was going to charge a 50 cent/month (or $6/year) annual fee on all account holders, even if they "paid for" their transponder (anyone before January 2009). The reaction was swift and negative, and the Turnpike Authority backed off very quickly a few months later in April after the disastrous easter backups that year. The fee never went into practice, as this was a few months before the July start date.

I do not expect them to repeat that public relations disaster with the impending implementation of AET.

Those backups that happened back then because the cash toll booths were still present.  A year or two from now, such won't be.  I'm not a betting man; but I'm willing that MassDOT (the Turnpike Authority has since merged into or become a division of MassDOT) will try to implement an annual fee about 2 years from now... mark my words.

I wouldn't doubt it. Of course, they could be like New York and just charge the fee to people who request one from out of state.

[kefkafloyd]

Those backups that happened back then because the cash toll booths were still present.  A year or two from now, such won't be.  I'm not a betting man; but I'm willing that MassDOT (the Turnpike Authority has since merged into or become a division of MassDOT) will try to implement an annual fee about 2 years from now... mark my words.

The backups were simply the straw; everyone I know who had a transponder was extremely annoyed about the fee and there had been a long and public backlash against the fee before that.

It's still too soon even two years from now. Maybe five or ten years will be different. I wouldn't say never, but they would get less backlash raising the tolls versus charging a monthly fee.

[cl94]

I wouldn't say never, but they would get less backlash raising the tolls versus charging a monthly fee.

I agree with that. A bunch of people who have E-ZPass will go a couple months without using it, then use it quite often in a short period. Raising tolls (especially on trucks) would raise as much money if not more without pissing off the infrequent users.

[bob7374]

Those who did or didn't attend any of the public meetings about the proposed AET toll structure have until the end of this week to send comments. Questions or comments may be directed by e-mail to: AETinfo@dot.state.ma.us

[bob7374]

Since I was traveling through the West Stockbridge toll barrier at the western end of the Pike on Saturday, I took this photo of the toll plaza before its scheduled demolition with the adoption of AET on October 28:

[spooky]

I've noticed new striping at the toll plazas that I assume is intended to channelize vehicles for the period in between when the booths go unmanned and the plazas are demolished.

[Pete from Boston]

According to local media outlets, this system has been in the testing phase since sometime this summer.

Some other tidbits from the hearing: the center toll booths on wider toll plazas will be demolished, the tunnel below filled and paved over, then traffic routed through there so the same can proceed on the outer lanes. This phase will take 30 days.  The remainder of the removal will be six months to a year, I believe.