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Author Topic: Oregon  (Read 7061 times)

JasonOfORoads

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2018, 04:54:37 PM »

Thanks for the research Jason.  ODOT bureaucrats have often drawn up plans and then let them fade away.  Back in 1990 the plan for 101 was to improve various segments to a 4-lane standard including what was then the busiest stretch of 2-lane highway in Oregon between North Bend and Reedsport.  It never happened.  What we got instead was a short lived segue into a parkway concept with one mile of demonstration road built in Lincoln County.  ODOT tried selling the concept to communities on the coast.  No one else wanted this.

Today the McCullough Bridge maintenance project continues.  It has been going on since 2009 and the current completion date is 2019.  Had ODOT built a modern 4-lane bridge it would not have cost that much more and been done quicker.  You can see how the planning for a 4-lane main bridge was used to make the bridge just north of it (Haynes Inlet) a 4-lane width with it currently marked for three plus an extra wide shoulder on the east side.

What would such a bridge have looked like?  If you go to Waldport and cross Alsea Bay on the one truly modern 101 bridge in Oregon, you'll be on a 4-lane affair with some beautiful arches that pay tribute to Conde McCullough.  Oh what could have been if ODOT was on the ball like they used to be in the glory days.

Rick

It's real easy to blame ODOT. They've had their fair share of boondoggles recently (US-20 at Eddyville, US-97 at Wickiup Junction), as well as projects that went over budget. However, I imagine that politicians are also to blame for playing with ODOT resources and funds, since they're the ones who actually control the purse strings. Also, due to some good-intended but really stupid laws (sending taxes to voters for approval, the kicker law, etc.) the voters share a part of the blame. For example, phase 1 of the Newberg-Dundee Bypass might've been built 5-10 years earlier had Measure 82 passed in 2000. That would've raised gas taxes by a nickel and increased vehicle registration fees to fund $600 million in transportation projects, $15 million of which was earmarked for the bypass. It got shot down for a few reasons, mostly because AAA opposed the measure, truckers opposed changing how their mileage and fuel were taxed, and gas started increasing in price weeks before the election (though not to the levels we see regularly today). I also blame Washington state for wasting ODOT money by messing up the CRC project years ago, and they look like they're trying to mess up these latest plans as well -- though maybe both of those are the faults of Washington politicians rather than residents.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 01:29:18 PM by JasonOfORoads »
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Sub-Urbanite

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2018, 11:31:03 AM »

Part of the funding puzzle, too, is that ODOT's maintenance bills are pretty high – close to $500 million a year for maintenance and preservation alone. ODOT also is responsible for kicking back a significant portion of revenue back to local communities – about $150 million a year.

This isn't to say we should feel bad for ODOT – their capital project management is just dreadful, the leadership is entrenched… but at least they could screw up *more* projects if they didn't have to dump so much into maintaining the existing system.
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sp_redelectric

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2018, 12:54:00 AM »

I also blame Washington state for wasting ODOT money by messing up the CRC project years ago, and they look like they're trying to mess up these latest plans as well -- though maybe both of those are the faults of Washington politicians rather than residents.

The fault for that is on Oregon's side.  Washington wanted a simple highway bridge.  It was Oregon - specifically the former and now disgraced Mayor of Portland - that DEMANDED, undiplomatically, a whole slew of so-called "green" projects that were unnecessary, wasteful, and unwanted by most of the people involved.  A light rail line to Vancouver.  Wind turbines and solar panels atop the bridge.  A "green" rooftop park with a bike path.

Washington got fed up with Portland's demands and walked away.  ODOT tried to wrestle Portland out of the committee, but Washington was already fed up at that point and walked away from Portland's demands.

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Hurricane Rex

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2018, 02:48:24 AM »

I also blame Washington state for wasting ODOT money by messing up the CRC project years ago, and they look like they're trying to mess up these latest plans as well -- though maybe both of those are the faults of Washington politicians rather than residents.

The fault for that is on Oregon's side.  Washington wanted a simple highway bridge.  It was Oregon - specifically the former and now disgraced Mayor of Portland - that DEMANDED, undiplomatically, a whole slew of so-called "green" projects that were unnecessary, wasteful, and unwanted by most of the people involved.  A light rail line to Vancouver.  Wind turbines and solar panels atop the bridge.  A "green" rooftop park with a bike path.

Don't forget Kitzhaber saying: "no light rail, no project, no kidding."
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Re: Oregon
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2018, 12:28:52 PM »

Washington wanted a simple highway bridge.

Even without light rail, the project was cumbersome. Washington had to do about a billion dollars of interchange improvements on the north side of the river. Oregon had a similar number on the south side for Port access. And politically, there was never going to be a project that didn't feature a rail line across the river.
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Bickendan

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2018, 08:43:51 PM »

Really, what helped kill it for Washington were the issues surrounding bridge height for Pearson Airfield and lack of consideration for the Coast Guard.
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Hurricane Rex

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2018, 11:53:47 PM »

So the following quote I'm taking from the Sherwood Archer (one of our newspapers) about speeding:
Quote from: Sherwood archer: Police Department Section
Speeding is the most common complaint we receive from the community and the Police Advisory Board reports that speeding is one of the topics they most often hear about.
Without question speeding is an issue in Sherwood and a concern of many residents. Speeding is a contributing factor in many crashes, and plays a roll in every crash. The higher the speed, the more significant the crash and the higher the risk of injury.
We recently learned that a portion of Elwert road is now inside the city limits, between Handley and Edy. Many people have shared their concerns with us about this stretch of roadway and we will be assuming enforcement in that area to increase safety.
We also have a speeding issue along Highway 99W right through town. We recently conducted a speed survey at the two intersections where we presently have red light cameras and found that in 2016, an estimated 89,000 were travelling 56 mph or faster through our 45 mph intersections.
The Oregon Legislature recently passed new laws allowing cities like us to use existing red light cameras for speed enforcement as well. With the recent appoval of your City Council we intend to do just that. Speeding through our major intersections at Highway 99W/Sunset and Highway 99W/Tualatin-Sherwood Road is not safe and we intend to take advantage of the tools and technology at our disposal to address it.
You can expect to see speed enforcement added to our existing photo enforcement program in the months ahead. Adressing the intersection speeding with the use of our existing cameras will allow us to keep focusing on our school zones, neighborhoods and other trouble spots, like Elwert road.
If you have an area you are concerned about because of speeding, please let us know. You can report dangerous traffic situations to dispatch by calling 911 if it is urgent, or the non-emergency number if it is not urgent. If you would simply like us to patrol a certain area, call us at 503-625-5523 and ask for some focused patrol.
I am always available to chat if you have any questions or want more information. I can be reached via email at grothj@sherwoodoregon.gov or by calling 503-625-5523.

In your service - Chief Jeff Groth

A couple of things to note and I quote:
1. "Speed plays a roll in every crash."  :-D :-D :-D :-D :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

2. "We also have a speeding issue along Highway 99W right through town. We recently conducted a speed survey at the two intersections where we presently have red light cameras and found that in 2016, an estimated 89,000 were travelling 56 mph or faster through our 45 mph intersections." I see a few red flags here. 1. Where is the average and 85th percentile speed? 2. That is a lot of cars driving through over 55 mph. (Speed limit is 45) More on this down below. 3. Highway 99W/Sunset is not a well designed intersection and a lot of crashes I can bet money that a vast minority, or a majority of crashes has to do with Sunset/Elwert traffic turning onto 99W with the oncoming traffic going strait. 4. The wording of that section and words after it makes it sound like they need more revenue and using speed as a way to do it.

3. "Speeding through our major intersections at Highway 99W/Sunset and Highway 99W/Tualatin-Sherwood is not safe..." Really? I already explained above what the issue is with the sunset intersection but the TSR intersection I have not seen or heard of accidents that often. In fact, I run through there at about 4pm once a week (start of rush hour) and over the past 4 years, I have noticed 1 crash on the stretch of 99W between MP 15.3 and 14.6.


This is the last straw. I am going to officially propose 55 mph on 99W in Sherwood, but I don't know who to talk to. Reasons why I'm doing it.
1. Entire highway through Sherwood is a divided 4-6 lane highway with minimal non-traffic signal intersections on the 4 lane sections, and the 6 lane sections have a reduced amount than what would normally be the case, and that is with an acceleration/slow down lane. The intersections that aren't controlled by a traffic signal are RIRO.
2. I rarely see people drive slower than 50 mph outside of rush hour. When I am being passed in the left lane going 50 between 2 sets of signals, there normally is a problem there.
     a. As a lot of you know, most drivers will go what feels right to them given the conditions. My father drives to work in Beaverton and notices that on Roy Rogers Road (55 mph limit, 2 lane with shoulder) people commonly drive 45 due to lower sight lines and fog is more common there due to the river's proximity. After he turns on Scholls Ferry road (40 mph limit, 4 lane+center lane) said cars go 50 mph because they feel more comfortable on the 4 lane, well lit segment of roadway.
3. Due to the higher differential in speeds, it makes it less safe for the drivers to travel along. A 55 mph speed limit will reduce if not eliminate this differential
4. In neighboring Tualatin, a section of 99W is 55 mph with similar conditions as Sherwood. Brookwood Parkway is 55 mph north of Evergreen Parkway with similar conditions (6 instead of 4 laned though), Redmond is 50-55 mph with similar conditions (excluding downtown area). You understand the point.

The evidence is there for a 55 mph limit. Again, I don't know who to talk to. Does anyone know who I would talk to (I'm going to wait until after the special election so that drama is done 1st).

The Sunset intersection is poorly designed with traffic frequently getting backed up at the north end of the intersection as well. Both signals turn green at the same time which for 2 busy roads crossing is not a wise thing to program. Here is where it is. https://www.google.com/maps/@45.3529605,-122.8670278,419m/data=!3m1!1e3

With the new High school coming in at this intersection, there is going to be a roundabout added in place and the distance between the intersection and the signal will increase, but congestion often goes further than that, caused by people wanting to get onto 99W but can't due to the people at the intersections, and 99W traffic. I have also come up with a plan to fix that as well and my friend said in his next superintendents director's meeting, he'll propose it (or I may do it myself). It is here: (retracted since I made it to a city-wide plan, see my fictional page)

I think I've ranted enough about this.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 08:20:48 PM by Hurricane Rex »
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Bickendan

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2018, 04:23:04 AM »

Most likely your state representative and/or senator. Possibly a contact person at ODOT, but I think ODOT's reluctant to raise speeds.
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Tarkus

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2018, 05:47:42 AM »

It's a state highway, and so it'd be up to ODOT, who would probably solicit significant input by the overlapping jurisdictions (City of Sherwood and Washington County).  It appears based on the current Speed Zone Order for that stretch of the highway (Order J9188 from December 11, 2017) that Sherwood is listed as an "interested jurisdiction" for the 45 zone.  There are actually some staunchly pro-85th percentile folks embedded at ODOT, who are in the speed zoning area, though they sometimes get trampled by local jurisdictions with enough clout.  Sherwood, to my knowledge, has a decent amount of clout to fight, given that they were able to get the red light cameras onto 99W in the first place, and Chief Groth seems to love exploiting poor engineering practices as a way for the city to make a buck.  (The cameras came shortly after he was hired out of Tualatin PD.)

BTW, it's also worth noting that the camera facing 99W SB at Sunset actually appears to be outside the city limits.  The border appears to run diagonally through the intersection, leaving at least some of the equipment (the camera that takes the facial image, at the very least) in unincorporated Washington County.  Don't know if that's enough to throw a spanner into the works there, but Beaverton got busted for using cameras outside their city limits sometime in the late-90s/early-00s, IIRC (which were also set to enforce a 25mph zone that had no basis in law).
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 05:51:38 AM by Tarkus »
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sp_redelectric

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2018, 12:37:56 AM »

One big problem I've run into recently with Highway 99W, all the way from Durham Road in Tigard/King City, through Tualatin, through Sherwood, and even over Rex Hill, is that too many motorists are completely unaware they are leaving the big city and entering a rural highway.  Too often people are poking along in the left lane doing 40 MPH, 45 MPH, maybe 50 if I'm lucky.  Completely oblivious to where they are, or the crowd of cars behind them.  What happens?  People get impatient and have to pass on the right at high speed.  So you have a combination of very slow drivers, and very fast people...and nobody doing 55 MPH or within 5 of it.

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Hurricane Rex

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2018, 09:50:05 PM »

One big problem I've run into recently with Highway 99W, all the way from Durham Road in Tigard/King City, through Tualatin, through Sherwood, and even over Rex Hill, is that too many motorists are completely unaware they are leaving the big city and entering a rural highway.  Too often people are poking along in the left lane doing 40 MPH, 45 MPH, maybe 50 if I'm lucky.  Completely oblivious to where they are, or the crowd of cars behind them.  What happens?  People get impatient and have to pass on the right at high speed.  So you have a combination of very slow drivers, and very fast people...and nobody doing 55 MPH or within 5 of it.

I have that problem often as well, oh and it was funny when one person was going 25 in a 45 soon to turn 55 in the left lane today (edit, all signals were green for the last 40 seconds (estimation) and did not turn red) :ded: however assuming you don't drive in the rush hours, then that number of drivers that do that go way down, at least from personal experience. It doesn't always go away though.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 09:53:18 PM by Hurricane Rex »
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ODOT, raise the speed limit and fix our traffic problems.

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2018, 12:41:02 AM »

If OR 99W through Sherwood was in Utah, it would probably be posted at 55 mph. The most similar road to that in UT that I can think of is US 89 between UT-193 and UT-273, and that is posted for 55 mph.
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Re: Oregon
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2018, 03:59:52 PM »

If OR 99W through Sherwood was in Utah, it would probably be posted at 55 mph. The most similar road to that in UT that I can think of is US 89 between UT-193 and UT-273, and that is posted for 55 mph.

Hard to say for Idaho. ID-55 (Eagle Rd) in Meridian/Boise is posted at 50 (S of Fairview) and 55 (N of Fairview) and is more urbanized, has more driveways, and more traffic than 99W. But look at US-95 in Coeur D Alene, which I would say is a more similar design to 99W, but only has a 45 MPH speed limit. That kind of bothers me, and it will bother me again when I drive on both segments in the same day at the end of April :P Guess it just shows that Northern Idaho takes more cues from Washington, and southern Idaho takes cues from Utah and Nevada (which take cues from California).

sp_redelectric

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2018, 12:29:03 AM »

If OR 99W through Sherwood was in Utah, it would probably be posted at 55 mph.

It was a 55 zone for many years.  Until Sherwood sprawled out and built one shopping center after another...Six Corners became two intersections...and then another traffic signal, and another, and another...

Meanwhile Tualatin-Sherwood Road is just clogged 24/7, Washington County underbuilt Roy Rogers Road and now its northern end has to be widened; 124th is being extended south to Wilsonville, there's another shopping center under construction...
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Hurricane Rex

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2018, 12:37:13 AM »

If OR 99W through Sherwood was in Utah, it would probably be posted at 55 mph.

It was a 55 zone for many years.  Until Sherwood sprawled out and built one shopping center after another...Six Corners became two intersections...and then another traffic signal, and another, and another...

Meanwhile Tualatin-Sherwood Road is just clogged 24/7, Washington County underbuilt Roy Rogers Road and now its northern end has to be widened; 124th is being extended south to Wilsonville, there's another shopping center under construction...
Despite all of that, the main access seems to be on Edy road off of 99W for said new shopping center (with RIRO access but it looks like its wide enough for one lane). And 99W somehow remains divided with the extra lane in the six corners area further justifying my point in the rant including the examples in there (there are others and I will supply them on request).

The proposed fun center next to Wal Mart on the other hand....

Edit: spelling error. Also the mayor election is over and its been a week since I've emailed my state representative and he hasn't responded. I'm assuming this is due to them not being in session anymore. I have been advized to talk with the city manager 1st and if it isn't him/her, the manager would know who to talk to so that is where I'll start.

« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 12:45:23 AM by Hurricane Rex »
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ODOT, raise the speed limit and fix our traffic problems.

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I-84/I-5 split photograph in The Oregonian
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2018, 10:04:41 PM »

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sp_redelectric

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2018, 10:06:31 PM »

And here's what it looks like today...notice the exit is now just for Lloyd Center which doesn't follow the current MUTCD (it should be a street name):

https://goo.gl/maps/qG66Ynm1Ly72
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nexus73

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2018, 12:19:22 PM »

Love that I-80N pix!  Hardly any cars on the Banfield showing so maybe this was Sunday morning? 

Rick
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Re: I-84/I-5 split photograph in The Oregonian
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2018, 08:46:25 PM »



That's a great shot! When was it in the Oregonian? Are there any more of them?
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Re: Oregon
« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2018, 11:44:11 AM »

...notice the exit is now just for Lloyd Center which doesn't follow the current MUTCD (it should be a street name):

There's nothing specific in the national MUTCD that says the exit destination has to be a street name. Just that a city name and street name on the same sign should be avoided.

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2018, 07:27:44 PM »


That could easily pass as old CalTrans signs. And that US 99E shield is gorgeous.
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Re: Oregon
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2018, 11:48:25 PM »

It looks like the arrows are kind of an afterthought; they looked like they just got crammed in there underneath the text. But hey, it's historic....

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2018, 03:24:07 PM »

There's nothing specific in the national MUTCD that says the exit destination has to be a street name. Just that a city name and street name on the same sign should be avoided.

Hmmm.  I've noticed both ODOT and WSDOT (which don't always see eye to eye with each other) renaming a lot of exits to the street/road name.

For example, I-5 Exit 278, formerly Aurora/Donald is now Ehlen Road/Aurora.  Oregon 217, formerly Progress, is now Hall Boulevard.
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sp_redelectric

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2018, 03:24:39 PM »

That's a great shot! When was it in the Oregonian? Are there any more of them?

Yes, it was in The Oregonian, and no there weren't any more road photos (at least that day).
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Hurricane Rex

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2018, 03:04:57 AM »



Is there any way we can get that back on I-84? She's a beauty. Edit: It looks like the collesium is called Seattle Collesium (I know it isn't though). End edit.




Update on Sherwood and my effort to raise it to 55 MPH: I did a makeshift engineering study because I did not find the time to do a proper engineering study or do something similar to what Speed Kills Your Pocketbook suggrsted on 2 cameras 2 seconds apart at (45 MPH). I instead did 5 passes through Sherwood. 3 were at 45 MPH, 2 were at 50 MPH. I also went out to 124th avenue for a round of passes (2) to see what the comparision was. The results are as follows:

45 MPH (current limit): passed by 17 times (after rewatching after the original post). Passed someone else once. Except for an RV, couldn't keep up with traffic. Felt unsafe going that slow.

50 MPH: passed by 4 times. Passed someone else 5 times (these 5 were in between 2 signals, not including that in the presentation because I'm out of space on that slide). Kept up easier but still struggled in spots.

Tualatin 55 MPH: passed 2 people, one of them in the city limits. I added 1 because I had to slow down to 50 so I could make my turn for the turnaround and I had 3 cars in front of me. If I kept 55 and moved over, I would've made the pass before it dropped to 45 MPH. Passed by 2 people and all werein the wildlife refuge area.

10 second break (2.5 on video) if I hit a red light.

Done on 3/31 at 3pm. It is on video however hard if not impossible to see me passing someone else due to me angling it so I could see spedometer for review. I'm in the right lane 75% of the time. 20% of the time I'm in the center lane (only in the 6 corners area). 5% in the left lane.
Also can you do us a favor and give us back US 99W signs in Sherwood? :bigass:  I was hopeful and had to enter an April fools thing somehow, even if its bad.


I wish I found time to do this earlier in the month because I wanted to respond to how magnificent that photo is bit also report an update. I blame scholarships and finals.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2018, 01:31:26 AM by Hurricane Rex »
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