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Author Topic: Do you think every state should overhaul their highway system...  (Read 1577 times)

Flint1979

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Re: Do you think every state should overhaul their highway system...
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2018, 01:44:55 PM »

Michigan's state highways are usually spaced out pretty good and there are a lot of county maintained roads in the state, some of which are maintained pretty good and some aren't maintained the best. Michigan's state highways also are just that the state highways and nothing else like in Florida where you have the unsigned state highways along with the Interstate and US highways, Michigan doesn't have that in the state highway system. And getting around Michigan really isn't that difficult except for a few areas in the U.P.
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texaskdog

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Re: Do you think every state should overhaul their highway system...
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2018, 02:14:31 PM »

Michigan's state highways are usually spaced out pretty good and there are a lot of county maintained roads in the state, some of which are maintained pretty good and some aren't maintained the best. Michigan's state highways also are just that the state highways and nothing else like in Florida where you have the unsigned state highways along with the Interstate and US highways, Michigan doesn't have that in the state highway system. And getting around Michigan really isn't that difficult except for a few areas in the U.P.

Did the state have a say in turning 27 into 127?  Seems to make sense (though overall a flipflop would have made more sense)
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bzakharin

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Re: Do you think every state should overhaul their highway system...
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2018, 05:27:10 PM »

I don't really see the point of mass renumberings. For example, I'm sure nobody in NJ cares why a given road has a given number, as long as it's signed well. The only good things to come from these renumberings are that they guarantee no route number duplication, and US route numbers were assigned. But neither of these things required a mass renumbering, just renumber the duplicate routes and decomission concurrencies with US routes.
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Pete from Boston

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Re: Do you think every state should overhaul their highway system...
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2018, 05:57:32 PM »

No. Aside from the disruption issues, people are relying upon the numbering systems less and less as navigation devices take over their attention to them.
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cl94

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Re: Do you think every state should overhaul their highway system...
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2018, 07:24:09 PM »

It depends on how the state divides up the jurisdiction of the roadways.  In some states, every inch of pavement is state road.  In other states, the majority of roadway is county or municipal jurisdiction.  A very, very quick look on Google seems to support this - 73% of the roadway miles in Michigan are county maintained.

This is also how surveys and comparisons get screwed up - "researchers" will look around at the various states, find the amount of mileage in each state, and run various comparisons.  However, they're rarely looking at apples-applies comparisons.  They'll find a general State Mileage number, not understanding all the various jurisdictions, and use that.

It is worth noting, though, that large amounts of the state highway systems in the northeast and Ohio are, in fact, locally-maintained. The general rule in NY, OH, and VT is that all state and US highways inside cities are locally-maintained. From looking at MA's jurisdiction map, well over a third of the numbered highways in Massachusetts are town-maintained. Everything in New York City is either city-maintained or maintained by a toll authority, ditto for Baltimore.
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Rothman

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Re: Do you think every state should overhaul their highway system...
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2018, 11:34:41 PM »

Not true.  Region 11 certainly lets projects of its own on NYSDOT facilities in the City.
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Flint1979

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Re: Do you think every state should overhaul their highway system...
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2018, 12:53:44 AM »

Michigan's state highways are usually spaced out pretty good and there are a lot of county maintained roads in the state, some of which are maintained pretty good and some aren't maintained the best. Michigan's state highways also are just that the state highways and nothing else like in Florida where you have the unsigned state highways along with the Interstate and US highways, Michigan doesn't have that in the state highway system. And getting around Michigan really isn't that difficult except for a few areas in the U.P.

Did the state have a say in turning 27 into 127?  Seems to make sense (though overall a flipflop would have made more sense)
MDOT pentioned for that removal themselves. They said it was to ease confusion along the US 27/127 corridor.
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froggie

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Re: Do you think every state should overhaul their highway system...
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2018, 10:18:15 AM »

Quote from: cl94
It is worth noting, though, that large amounts of the state highway systems in the northeast and Ohio are, in fact, locally-maintained. The general rule in NY, OH, and VT is that all state and US highways inside cities are locally-maintained.

Besides what Rothman noted for NYC, this is not entirely correct in Vermont, either.  The cities and villages are generally responsible for day-to-day maintenance of VT/US routes in their jurisdictions (which primarily consists of winter plowing), but reconstruction, paving, bridge, and other major projects are still either fully done by or heavily coordinated with VTrans.

Furthermore, of the roughly 2,970 centerline miles of state/US/Interstate highway in Vermont, less than 12% (roughly 330 miles) has some sort of local maintenance, and much of this consists of inter-town routes that are along Class 2 Town Highways such as VT 35, VT 121, or VT 132.
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Flint1979

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Re: Do you think every state should overhaul their highway system...
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2018, 12:51:42 PM »

To be honest I don't know why they couldn't of switched US 27 and US 127 around keeping the US 27 shield all the way to Grayling, Michigan and US 127 to Fort Wayne. The only thing would be US 27 goes into Indiana and ends in Fort Wayne and US 127 stays in Ohio until the Michigan border. I remember when they made this switch and people were still calling it US 27.
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cl94

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Re: Do you think every state should overhaul their highway system...
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2018, 01:29:43 PM »

Going back to NY, OH, and VT: yes, the capital projects are still state-funded. I was referring more to the day-to-day maintenance. NYSDOT Region 11 does little more than let capital projects (NYCDOT does the day-to-day stuff). Of course, we could say that systems of county routes in several states (MI and MN are the main ones I can think of) have a similar or slightly-smaller amount of state input.
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Avalanchez71

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Re: Do you think every state should overhaul their highway system...
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2018, 01:43:20 PM »

All I can think of with Tennessee is getting rid of the confusing primary/secondary route designations.  Delaware really doesn't need an overhaul.

Neither have had a mass renumbering, and neither really need it.

There is sort of a clustering of the secondary roads in each grand division but not really.  There are a lot of the 100's in East Tennessee, 200's in Middle Tennessee, and 300's in West Tennessee but not really.
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JCinSummerfield

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Re: Do you think every state should overhaul their highway system...
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2018, 05:23:04 PM »

To be honest I don't know why they couldn't of switched US 27 and US 127 around keeping the US 27 shield all the way to Grayling, Michigan and US 127 to Fort Wayne. The only thing would be US 27 goes into Indiana and ends in Fort Wayne and US 127 stays in Ohio until the Michigan border. I remember when they made this switch and people were still calling it US 27.

At what point to the south do you switch the route numbers?  If US-27 goes straight south into Ohio and US-127 ends in northwest Indiana, then you have to flip-flop the route numbers going all the way down to Cincinnati.  The most appropriate action would have been to label the highway going north out of Lansing as I-73 (even with the incomplete portion around St. Johns).
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dvferyance

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Re: Do you think every state should overhaul their highway system...
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2018, 05:54:14 PM »

To be honest I don't know why they couldn't of switched US 27 and US 127 around keeping the US 27 shield all the way to Grayling, Michigan and US 127 to Fort Wayne. The only thing would be US 27 goes into Indiana and ends in Fort Wayne and US 127 stays in Ohio until the Michigan border. I remember when they made this switch and people were still calling it US 27.
It made perfect sense it eliminated the long duplex with I-69. I think they should also end US 52 in St Paul and have the North Dakota portion as an extension of US 10. That would eliminate the long duplex with I-94 it would also make sense becasue 52 is too high of a number for that far north. Also it would make US 10 longer which is rather short for a US highway ending in zero. Yes I know it once went all the way to Seattle.
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formulanone

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Re: Do you think every state should overhaul their highway system...
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2018, 09:41:22 PM »

So... what was different then, that made renumberings in the olden days possible when they aren't now? Were they less expensive to implement (in relative terms)? Did states generally have more room in their budgets such that the cost was less of a big deal? Were people less averse to change?

Florida probably had it a bit easier in 1947; there were only 2.5 million residents (at the time, mostly in the Panhandle/northern tier of the state), no freeways/expressways, not as much US Route mileage, and signage seemed to be nowhere near as plentiful as it is today. I'm guessing that reassurance signage really wasn't a big deal then, just an SR sign or two at the intersection. The reasons for the overhaul must have been because old routes seemed to be discontinuously laid out, there was no even/odd structure, there were confusing spur/alternate routes...tourism started to take off in Florida after World War II, the powers-that-be probably desired some sort of standardized layout.

Maybe there were all sorts of budget imbalances for roads to places that didn't really exist (there were lots of these towards the late-1930s), or state monies towards roads that didn't seem to serve much of anything other than a few farmers; although to be fair, there were many swampy areas that probably needed some sort of basic connection between towns, so the highest land in the area would suffice. So a thorough re-working of the routes probably made a good deal of sense.

I'm not sure too much of this was designed around hurricane evacuation, although a lot more east-west routes were constructed or designated in the following years. Budgets started to swell because folks came from all over to see alligators, beaches, citrus fruit, grandparents, and later...Mickey Mouse.

Florida had the Big Downgrade of 1977-78, but that was done on the cheap. The 1981-83 re-numberings (mostly south of Lake Okeechobee) were seemingly unnecessary, but a few duplicate numbers were renumbered. I think today, it's possible to create near-immediate concerns and complaints via internet, so things like this don't seem as commonplace. There's also a certain lethargy in just leaving things alone that don't really need to be changed. Whereas forty years ago, it would have hardly made any press to announce a few signage changes (probably on page 8, on a slow news day).

If Florida tried a massive overhaul in 1990, when population was well over 12 million and growing, with growth being consistent, the tourism boom seemed to centralize on a few key areas, and generations of citizens starting to make roots all over the state, hold this probably wouldn't have been a good idea. I'm sure the various tourism committees, construction conglomerates, along with Disney and Publix, would voice their concerns to Tallahassee!
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 10:07:33 PM by formulanone »
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Flint1979

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Re: Do you think every state should overhaul their highway system...
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2018, 11:47:03 AM »

To be honest I don't know why they couldn't of switched US 27 and US 127 around keeping the US 27 shield all the way to Grayling, Michigan and US 127 to Fort Wayne. The only thing would be US 27 goes into Indiana and ends in Fort Wayne and US 127 stays in Ohio until the Michigan border. I remember when they made this switch and people were still calling it US 27.
It made perfect sense it eliminated the long duplex with I-69. I think they should also end US 52 in St Paul and have the North Dakota portion as an extension of US 10. That would eliminate the long duplex with I-94 it would also make sense becasue 52 is too high of a number for that far north. Also it would make US 10 longer which is rather short for a US highway ending in zero. Yes I know it once went all the way to Seattle.
It does seem strange to me that US 52 reaches the Canadian border. About 10 years ago I was driving on it between the Twin Cities and Rochester and was wondering why it was numbered 52 and not an odd number. Then I looked at it's routing and noticed it runs on an angle between South Carolina and North Dakota, strange routing if you ask me. I was on the other US highway that I've often wondered why it has that number (US 24 in Michigan) it runs north-south and is signed as such, but after entering Ohio it is an east-west route.
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Re: Do you think every state should overhaul their highway system...
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2018, 11:48:50 AM »

To be honest I don't know why they couldn't of switched US 27 and US 127 around keeping the US 27 shield all the way to Grayling, Michigan and US 127 to Fort Wayne. The only thing would be US 27 goes into Indiana and ends in Fort Wayne and US 127 stays in Ohio until the Michigan border. I remember when they made this switch and people were still calling it US 27.
It made perfect sense it eliminated the long duplex with I-69. I think they should also end US 52 in St Paul and have the North Dakota portion as an extension of US 10. That would eliminate the long duplex with I-94 it would also make sense becasue 52 is too high of a number for that far north. Also it would make US 10 longer which is rather short for a US highway ending in zero. Yes I know it once went all the way to Seattle.
It does seem strange to me that US 52 reaches the Canadian border. About 10 years ago I was driving on it between the Twin Cities and Rochester and was wondering why it was numbered 52 and not an odd number. Then I looked at it's routing and noticed it runs on an angle between South Carolina and North Dakota, strange routing if you ask me. I was on the other US highway that I've often wondered why it has that number (US 24 in Michigan) it runs north-south and is signed as such, but after entering Ohio it is an east-west route.

What about US 62? It's the same situation as US 52, but with the other diagonal.
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Flint1979

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Re: Do you think every state should overhaul their highway system...
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2018, 11:58:47 AM »

To be honest I don't know why they couldn't of switched US 27 and US 127 around keeping the US 27 shield all the way to Grayling, Michigan and US 127 to Fort Wayne. The only thing would be US 27 goes into Indiana and ends in Fort Wayne and US 127 stays in Ohio until the Michigan border. I remember when they made this switch and people were still calling it US 27.
It made perfect sense it eliminated the long duplex with I-69. I think they should also end US 52 in St Paul and have the North Dakota portion as an extension of US 10. That would eliminate the long duplex with I-94 it would also make sense becasue 52 is too high of a number for that far north. Also it would make US 10 longer which is rather short for a US highway ending in zero. Yes I know it once went all the way to Seattle.
It does seem strange to me that US 52 reaches the Canadian border. About 10 years ago I was driving on it between the Twin Cities and Rochester and was wondering why it was numbered 52 and not an odd number. Then I looked at it's routing and noticed it runs on an angle between South Carolina and North Dakota, strange routing if you ask me. I was on the other US highway that I've often wondered why it has that number (US 24 in Michigan) it runs north-south and is signed as such, but after entering Ohio it is an east-west route.

What about US 62? It's the same situation as US 52, but with the other diagonal.
US 62 is the same way but it goes the other direction. Ending US 52 at St. Paul and running US 10 west of Fargo makes sense. All US 52 does between St. Paul and Fargo is runs multiplexed with I-94, actually it goes farther west than Fargo but Fargo is where US 10 ends. US 52 stays multiplexed with I-94 until Jamestown, that's almost a 350 mile multiplex. I just don't know what you'd do with the 260 miles between Jamestown and the Canadian border.
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Avalanchez71

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Re: Do you think every state should overhaul their highway system...
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2018, 01:12:50 PM »

So... what was different then, that made renumberings in the olden days possible when they aren't now? Were they less expensive to implement (in relative terms)? Did states generally have more room in their budgets such that the cost was less of a big deal? Were people less averse to change?

Florida probably had it a bit easier in 1947; there were only 2.5 million residents (at the time, mostly in the Panhandle/northern tier of the state), no freeways/expressways, not as much US Route mileage, and signage seemed to be nowhere near as plentiful as it is today. I'm guessing that reassurance signage really wasn't a big deal then, just an SR sign or two at the intersection. The reasons for the overhaul must have been because old routes seemed to be discontinuously laid out, there was no even/odd structure, there were confusing spur/alternate routes...tourism started to take off in Florida after World War II, the powers-that-be probably desired some sort of standardized layout.

Maybe there were all sorts of budget imbalances for roads to places that didn't really exist (there were lots of these towards the late-1930s), or state monies towards roads that didn't seem to serve much of anything other than a few farmers; although to be fair, there were many swampy areas that probably needed some sort of basic connection between towns, so the highest land in the area would suffice. So a thorough re-working of the routes probably made a good deal of sense.

I'm not sure too much of this was designed around hurricane evacuation, although a lot more east-west routes were constructed or designated in the following years. Budgets started to swell because folks came from all over to see alligators, beaches, citrus fruit, grandparents, and later...Mickey Mouse.

Florida had the Big Downgrade of 1977-78, but that was done on the cheap. The 1981-83 re-numberings (mostly south of Lake Okeechobee) were seemingly unnecessary, but a few duplicate numbers were renumbered. I think today, it's possible to create near-immediate concerns and complaints via internet, so things like this don't seem as commonplace. There's also a certain lethargy in just leaving things alone that don't really need to be changed. Whereas forty years ago, it would have hardly made any press to announce a few signage changes (probably on page 8, on a slow news day).

If Florida tried a massive overhaul in 1990, when population was well over 12 million and growing, with growth being consistent, the tourism boom seemed to centralize on a few key areas, and generations of citizens starting to make roots all over the state, hold this probably wouldn't have been a good idea. I'm sure the various tourism committees, construction conglomerates, along with Disney and Publix, would voice their concerns to Tallahassee!

What were the renumberings?  Of the top of my head I know of SR 82 to SR 736.  I think some of the Dade County routes were renumbered to 900 series from 800 series numbers.
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formulanone

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Re: Do you think every state should overhaul their highway system...
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2018, 07:10:44 PM »

What were the renumberings?  Of the top of my head I know of SR 82 to SR 736.  I think some of the Dade County routes were renumbered to 900 series from 800 series numbers.

Mostly Palm Beach, Broward, Dade, Lee, and Collier counties. Seems a lot of downgrades to the southwest freed up some numbers to be used in Broward and Dade County, while a bunch of South Dade route numbers disappeared.

Frankly, that's not all that unusual in the past few decades...there's still newly-minted state roads that appear and suddenly disappear from the FDOT route logs a few years later.

dvferyance

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Re: Do you think every state should overhaul their highway system...
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2018, 08:00:47 PM »

To be honest I don't know why they couldn't of switched US 27 and US 127 around keeping the US 27 shield all the way to Grayling, Michigan and US 127 to Fort Wayne. The only thing would be US 27 goes into Indiana and ends in Fort Wayne and US 127 stays in Ohio until the Michigan border. I remember when they made this switch and people were still calling it US 27.
It made perfect sense it eliminated the long duplex with I-69. I think they should also end US 52 in St Paul and have the North Dakota portion as an extension of US 10. That would eliminate the long duplex with I-94 it would also make sense becasue 52 is too high of a number for that far north. Also it would make US 10 longer which is rather short for a US highway ending in zero. Yes I know it once went all the way to Seattle.
It does seem strange to me that US 52 reaches the Canadian border. About 10 years ago I was driving on it between the Twin Cities and Rochester and was wondering why it was numbered 52 and not an odd number. Then I looked at it's routing and noticed it runs on an angle between South Carolina and North Dakota, strange routing if you ask me. I was on the other US highway that I've often wondered why it has that number (US 24 in Michigan) it runs north-south and is signed as such, but after entering Ohio it is an east-west route.

What about US 62? It's the same situation as US 52, but with the other diagonal.
US 62 is the same way but it goes the other direction. Ending US 52 at St. Paul and running US 10 west of Fargo makes sense. All US 52 does between St. Paul and Fargo is runs multiplexed with I-94, actually it goes farther west than Fargo but Fargo is where US 10 ends. US 52 stays multiplexed with I-94 until Jamestown, that's almost a 350 mile multiplex. I just don't know what you'd do with the 260 miles between Jamestown and the Canadian border.
The Jamestown to Minot portion becomes and extension of US 10. The rest gets downgraded to a state highway since it's more minor.
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Flint1979

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Re: Do you think every state should overhaul their highway system...
« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2018, 09:25:41 PM »

To be honest I don't know why they couldn't of switched US 27 and US 127 around keeping the US 27 shield all the way to Grayling, Michigan and US 127 to Fort Wayne. The only thing would be US 27 goes into Indiana and ends in Fort Wayne and US 127 stays in Ohio until the Michigan border. I remember when they made this switch and people were still calling it US 27.
It made perfect sense it eliminated the long duplex with I-69. I think they should also end US 52 in St Paul and have the North Dakota portion as an extension of US 10. That would eliminate the long duplex with I-94 it would also make sense becasue 52 is too high of a number for that far north. Also it would make US 10 longer which is rather short for a US highway ending in zero. Yes I know it once went all the way to Seattle.
It does seem strange to me that US 52 reaches the Canadian border. About 10 years ago I was driving on it between the Twin Cities and Rochester and was wondering why it was numbered 52 and not an odd number. Then I looked at it's routing and noticed it runs on an angle between South Carolina and North Dakota, strange routing if you ask me. I was on the other US highway that I've often wondered why it has that number (US 24 in Michigan) it runs north-south and is signed as such, but after entering Ohio it is an east-west route.

What about US 62? It's the same situation as US 52, but with the other diagonal.
US 62 is the same way but it goes the other direction. Ending US 52 at St. Paul and running US 10 west of Fargo makes sense. All US 52 does between St. Paul and Fargo is runs multiplexed with I-94, actually it goes farther west than Fargo but Fargo is where US 10 ends. US 52 stays multiplexed with I-94 until Jamestown, that's almost a 350 mile multiplex. I just don't know what you'd do with the 260 miles between Jamestown and the Canadian border.
The Jamestown to Minot portion becomes and extension of US 10. The rest gets downgraded to a state highway since it's more minor.
So in that case US 10 would end at US 2 I'm assuming. I just don't care for US 52's terminus up there in between US 83 and US 85.
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