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Passing on the Right

Started by webny99, May 15, 2018, 08:24:03 AM

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webny99

Here's a thread to discuss the principle of passing on the right. I've answered (1), and I'm sure opportunities will arise for me to answer (2) and (3) later on. For now, let it suffice that I'm anti-passing-on-the-right.

(1) How common is this in your area? Rochester, NY, has got to be the nationwide capital of Passing on the Right  :pan:
(2) How prepared are you, personally, to pass on the right*, and does this vary based on lanes per direction?
(3) What would happen to traffic flow on freeways if no one passed on the right?


*On a free-flowing, multi-lane, limited access highway


jeffandnicole

1) New Jersey - Common, because of all the out-of-staters driving too slow in the left lane.

2) How prepared?  Um, I move over and pass.

3) They would be a congested hell even in the most rural of areas .

webny99

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 15, 2018, 08:39:04 AM
2) How prepared?  Um, I move over and pass.

Perhaps "willing" would have been a better word choice. As in, do you move right immediately? or first attempt to get them to move over?

Quote
3) They would be a congested hell even in the most rural of areas.

...because...

Rothman

You have to pass on the right due to left lane blockers.  That is all there is to it.

I don't waste time trying to get them to move over.  Car-to-car communication is pretty weak and probably thought to be more effective than it is.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Flint1979

The only time I'll pass on the right is if someone is in front of me going slower than the speed I want to drive and they are hogging the left lane. For example, I'll be cruising along at 80 mph in the left lane of I-75 and in front of me is a car going 70 mph which is the speed limit and I'll comment on that in a minute, I'll move over to the right to get around a slow moving vehicle in the left lane though and then get back in the left lane. When I'm in the left lane I'm passing everyone on the highway I'm not riding the same speed they are or just barely keeping up with their speed if traffic in the right lane is plentiful I'll remain in the left lane until I'm no longer passing vehicles in the other lanes. Now as far as driving 70 mph in the left lane, who are these people actually helping? The left lane is for passing not for traveling in and when they are moving the same speed as the traffic in the other lanes that vehicle doesn't belong in the left lane.

A couple of examples that happened to me this year so far, both on the same trip. I was traveling on WB I-69 between Flint and Lansing the speed limit is now 75 mph and I have my cruise set for 80 mph. I'm in the left lane passing and come up to these cars that just can't seem to move any faster than about 63 mph in the left lane, no semi truck in the left lane up ahead so I started tailgating the traffic to get them to get over and out of the left lane so I can pass. One driver got mad at me over that but I just flicked him back off and moved on.

My second example, I was traveling on EB I-94 between Kalamazoo and Battle Creek about 2-3 hours later. I'm doing 80 mph and a semi truck is in the right lane, a car purposely decides to drive the same speed the semi truck is driving in the left lane (there are only two lanes here to use). After about a mile of this I decided and successfully used the left shoulder to pass the vehicle that was driving slow in the left lane.

My whole point is that these people don't own the road (neither do I). But it is totally inexcusable to do such a thing. Common sense just doesn't register with some people I don't get it, your on the damn road driving and not even trying to let traffic move around you. The incident on I-94 I had at least 10 cars behind me trying to pass this semi truck.

Brandon

1. Common due to left lane hogs.

2. Rather prepared.  A bit sick of the LLHs though.

3. Major congestion - would be worse than currently.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

Max Rockatansky

It's more common to pass people on the right in California in my experience in passing lane zones on mountain grades.  It seems that most people ignore the signs that say "keep right except to pass."    

jeffandnicole

Why would you be anti-passing on the right?  You're only contributing to the congestion by failing to pass on the right, which is a perfectly legal move on multi-lane highways.  It's only illegal (in some states) when you pass on the right *shoulder* to go around a left turning vehicle.

Quote from: webny99 on May 15, 2018, 10:03:42 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 15, 2018, 08:39:04 AM
2) How prepared?  Um, I move over and pass.

Perhaps "willing" would have been a better word choice. As in, do you move right immediately? or first attempt to get them to move over?

I move right when I notice I'll need to pass.  There's no reason to pull up behind someone in the left lane just to sit there because I don't want to pass on the right.  Now, I have tried in the past to sit there to 'encourage' them to move over, but it's more likely they're going to have no clue why you aren't simply passing on the right.  There's a bit of bias with this statement, but vehicles from NY and PA do tend to think they absolutely own that left lane until they're ready to exit the highway.  They will rather drive into a giant sinkhole rather than move out of the left lane.

Also, it's a gas mileage issue.  If you slow up behind the left lane hog, then speed up to pass them, you're using more gas than if you just maintained a steady speed, noticed the slower vehicle ahead, and merged over.

Quote from: webny99 on May 15, 2018, 10:03:42 AM
Quote
3) They would be a congested hell even in the most rural of areas.

...because...

So let's say the speed limit is 70 mph.  Normal travel speeds are 75 - 80.  Slowpoke in the left lane is doing 55 mph, about 30% slower than the average speed of the roadway.  It's pretty clear that if someone didn't pass the slowpoke, the entire highway would be doing 55 mph in a 70 zone, which will cause some obvious congestion issues.

bzakharin

I'll pass on the right more often than not when it's possible (in NJ), since that leaves the left lane open for those going faster than me, especially in 55 MPH zones on freeways where many are going faster. I also end up getting passed on the right a lot myself due to this where, after passing on the left, I find the right lane going faster than me forcing me to stay in the center lane, rather than cutting people off. But I tend to keep right in general. If that means I'm passing people in lanes to the left of me, I don't see a problem.

SectorZ

Quote from: Flint1979 on May 15, 2018, 11:50:02 AM
After about a mile of this I decided and successfully used the left shoulder to pass the vehicle that was driving slow in the left lane.

My whole point is that these people don't own the road (neither do I). But it is totally inexcusable to do such a thing.

Driving slow in the left lane is inexcusable, but driving out-of-lane to pass them is OK? Come on, I hate left lane squatters too, but to do that borders on "you should lose your license" material.

corco

#10
I pass on the right only if I am 100% certain that the car in the left lane has no good reason to be there, isn't planning to get over when they think it's safe to do so, and I can get fully around them before approaching another car - which usually means I'll give them a few seconds to get over before passing.

jakeroot

"Undertaking" is a necessary evil when left lane laws are unenforced, unobserved, or non-existent. In a perfect world (eg most of Europe), traffic would move to towards the shoulder after overtaking, so undertaking would never be necessary. But in North America, where many drivers seem to space out on the road and/or engage in some sort of distracting activity, it's gonna take a lot signs, new laws, and enforcement before I don't need to undertake anymore. I don't know if drivers are just unaware or stubborn, but both are issues.

With this in mind, I will wait a moment before going in for the undertake. A driver can't move right unless there's a gap, and there's not going to be a gap if every car that comes up on them immediately undertakes. This is a big problem when trucks are in the left lane (or the left most lane they are permitted in). Using one's indicators would help, but many don't seem to use them until they are actually changing lanes.

kphoger

Quote from: webny99 on May 15, 2018, 08:24:03 AM
Here's a thread to discuss the principle of passing on the right. I've answered (1), and I'm sure opportunities will arise for me to answer (2) and (3) later on. For now, let it suffice that I'm anti-passing-on-the-right.

(1) How common is this in your area? Rochester, NY, has got to be the nationwide capital of Passing on the Right  :pan:
(2) How prepared are you, personally, to pass on the right*, and does this vary based on lanes per direction?
(3) What would happen to traffic flow on freeways if no one passed on the right?


*On a free-flowing, multi-lane, limited access highway

(1) It's not very common anymore on rural multi-lane highways that there's any need to pass on the right, because most traffic keeps to the right.  It's still quite common on rural two-lane highways that widen out every so often for passing opportunities; a lot of people assume they don't have to move over, even though the sign says "KEEP RIGHT EXCEPT TO PASS".  And, in Wichita itself, everybody has some phobia about the right lane, such that they immediately move to the center lane after entering the highway–occasionally leaving the right lane wide open.

(2) I stay in the left lane long enough to give them a decent chance to notice me and move over.  Failing that, I pass on the right.  If driving at the exact same darned speed as the next lane over.... well, I've been known to use the inside shoulder, which is risky.

(3) Everyone would be stuck in the left lane behind the slowest driver out there.  Unless that guy got over, of course.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

jemacedo9

On 4 lane highways (2 lanes on my side), I will pretty quickly pass on the right side without hesitation.
I don't notice much of a difference between W NY and PA, where I do most of my driving.

However...on 6 lane or more highways (3 lanes on my side or more), there seem to be a lot of middle-lane hogs, and in those cases, I will rarely pass on the right; instead, I will wait and pass on the left. I find that most 6 lane highways I'm on, there isn't enough clear space, particularly with multiple exits, to have a clear pass on the right.

webny99

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 15, 2018, 12:35:58 PM
Why would you be anti-passing on the right?  You're only contributing to the congestion by failing to pass on the right, which is a perfectly legal move on multi-lane highways.

It's legal, but it's not recommended for a reason; it's safest, most efficient, and most predictable, when slower traffic keeps right. The problem is when you get middle-lane campers, and volumes are too high for traffic to sustain a reasonable differential on the left. Now, if freeways were as efficient as European freeways, those middle-lane campers would be on the far right, and the people passing at a differential of 5 mph or so can use the middle lane. Then, voila!, there's a lane for people to pass those that would otherwise be hogging the left lane.

QuoteSo let's say the speed limit is 70 mph.  Normal travel speeds are 75 - 80.  Slowpoke in the left lane is doing 55 mph, about 30% slower than the average speed of the roadway.  It's pretty clear that if someone didn't pass the slowpoke, the entire highway would be doing 55 mph in a 70 zone, which will cause some obvious congestion issues.
If you're going under the speed limit on an otherwise free-flowing highway, you won't ever have a reason to be on the left, leading me to conclude that you moved left just be obtuse. In which case I will be the guy that sits in the right lane and flashes you until you get over*.

*And if you still don't get over, well then we have a real problem, which I'll assign consequences to as I see fit  :-P (but no, I won't stay behind or next to you forever)

webny99

Quote from: jakeroot on May 15, 2018, 01:02:24 PM
With this in mind, I will wait a moment before going in for the undertake. A driver can't move right unless there's a gap, and there's not going to be a gap if every car that comes up on them immediately undertakes. This is a big problem when trucks are in the left lane (or the left most lane they are permitted in).

This. It's a question of which is the lesser of two evils: to give the slowest vehicle an opportunity to move right, or to maintain flow and pass on the right like everyone else. The latter isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it ensures the problem will continue to exist - and two lanes of traffic flowing around the middle lane is definitely sub-optimal.

Quote from: jemacedo9 on May 15, 2018, 01:44:56 PM
However...on 6 lane or more highways (3 lanes on my side or more), there seem to be a lot of middle-lane hogs, and in those cases, I will rarely pass on the right; instead, I will wait and pass on the left. I find that most 6 lane highways I'm on, there isn't enough clear space, particularly with multiple exits, to have a clear pass on the right.

See, I'm just the opposite, being more willing to forgive/allow middle-lane camping than left-lane camping.
This section of I-490 and this section of NY 104, in particular, have a lot of traffic passing right and keeping pace with those passing left.

kalvado

Quote from: webny99 on May 15, 2018, 03:26:55 PM
It's legal, but it's not recommended for a reason; it's safest, most efficient,
Can you elaborate on those two statements? What makes it more efficient and more safe? 

webny99

Quote from: kalvado on May 15, 2018, 03:39:33 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 15, 2018, 03:26:55 PM
It's legal, but it's not recommended for a reason; it's safest, most efficient,
Can you elaborate on those two statements? What makes it more efficient and more safe?

You cut out the part of the quote that would have (partially) answered your own question. More predictable. And more consistent.

Further to that, slow-moving traffic entering and exiting is primarily on the right. Encouraging faster traffic to use that side of the road leads to a lot of unnecessary, and potentially unsafe, braking and dramatic speed changes. That is to say, there are less potential hazards on the left, less potential conflict points, and less potential for unplanned speed changes. All three are optimal for your fastest-moving traffic. Truckers also have their largest blind spots on their right, which speaks for itself..

As to why it's more efficient, I think it's obvious, but I'd probably make myself look like a fool by trying to explain it without a video. It's the best solution to allow everyone to maintain their preferred speed, with the least amount of conflict points and weaving possible.

kphoger

Quote from: kalvado on May 15, 2018, 03:39:33 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 15, 2018, 03:26:55 PM
It's legal, but it's not recommended for a reason; it's safest, most efficient,
Can you elaborate on those two statements? What makes it more efficient and more safe? 

I know you don't like this animation, but I'm posting it nonetheless.

Watch the red car.

Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

skluth

St Louis has a bunch of left exits. Drivers will camp out in the left lane even if their exit is 4-5 miles down the road. Passing on the right isn't just commonplace here. It's a necessity.

jemacedo9

Quote from: webny99 on May 15, 2018, 03:37:08 PM
See, I'm just the opposite, being more willing to forgive/allow middle-lane camping than left-lane camping.
This section of I-490 and this section of NY 104, in particular, have a lot of traffic passing right and keeping pace with those passing left.

That section of 490...there is a small window where you can get away with that before the merge from the E Rochester on-ramp closes off that option.

But that section of 104 Westbound after Bay Rd doesn't have another merge, but a split at 590, so it's a little more wide open and the right lane is more of an option.

And it's not that I'm more forgiving...but that on 6-lane sections, I find that the chances that the right lane is faster, for long enough to complete a pass, is rare.  And the potential downsides...of getting stuck behind a slow right-lane traveler who has just merged on from, or slowing down to an exit, and also stuck next to the middle-lane camper...is greater.

kalvado

Quote from: kphoger on May 15, 2018, 04:15:57 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 15, 2018, 03:39:33 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 15, 2018, 03:26:55 PM
It's legal, but it's not recommended for a reason; it's safest, most efficient,
Can you elaborate on those two statements? What makes it more efficient and more safe? 

I know you don't like this animation, but I'm posting it nonetheless.

Watch the red car.


What I see is a car moving at probably speed limit, speed limit +20 and speed limit +40. Do I care about how efficient road for superspeeder is? Hell, no - if that car doesn't have red and white flashers, of course.
And at 5 mph speed differentials  everything would be much less drastic.

kalvado

Quote from: webny99 on May 15, 2018, 03:59:17 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 15, 2018, 03:39:33 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 15, 2018, 03:26:55 PM
It's legal, but it's not recommended for a reason; it's safest, most efficient,
Can you elaborate on those two statements? What makes it more efficient and more safe?

You cut out the part of the quote that would have (partially) answered your own question. More predictable. And more consistent.

Further to that, slow-moving traffic entering and exiting is primarily on the right. Encouraging faster traffic to use that side of the road leads to a lot of unnecessary, and potentially unsafe, braking and dramatic speed changes. That is to say, there are less potential hazards on the left, less potential conflict points, and less potential for unplanned speed changes. All three are optimal for your fastest-moving traffic. Truckers also have their largest blind spots on their right, which speaks for itself..

As to why it's more efficient, I think it's obvious, but I'd probably make myself look like a fool by trying to explain it without a video. It's the best solution to allow everyone to maintain their preferred speed, with the least amount of conflict points and weaving possible.
Oh, I see, so you want to be the faster traffic using just left lane? You know, left lane is for passing, not camping!

webny99

^ I'm not sure how you reached that first conclusion.
No matter how fast you want to go, you should still move right if you're not passing. If volumes are such that the fastest-moving traffic spends the majority of their time on the left, then so be it.

kphoger

Quote from: kalvado on May 15, 2018, 05:35:26 PM
What I see is a car moving at probably speed limit, speed limit +20 and speed limit +40. Do I care about how efficient road for superspeeder is? Hell, no

Then you shouldn't claim to care about efficiency.  The real world includes people who drive slowly and people who drive fast.  You calling some drivers "too fast" doesn't negate the benefit of slower drivers keeping right.

Quote from: kalvado on May 15, 2018, 05:35:26 PM
And at 5 mph speed differentials  everything would be much less drastic.

Less drastic, yes, but still there.  The animation was obviously designed such that what can actually take 30 seconds in the real world is easily understood as a 10-second simplification.  You're throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.



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