News:

Thank you for your patience during the Forum downtime while we upgraded the software. Welcome back and see this thread for some new features and other changes to the forum.

Main Menu

Resolving I-10, US 80, SR 84 and SR 86 Mysteries

Started by 707, September 06, 2018, 02:48:18 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

707

After sifting through available and reliable sources on Arizona SR 84 to update the Wikipedia article to a higher standard, Ive come across information which seems to conflict on whether SR 84A ever existed. Maps of Tucson between 1951 and 1956 by HM Goshua portray future I-10 as the "Tucson Limited Access Highway" as do 1950s newspaper articles from Tucson. A PDF document prepared by the Tucson Historic Preservation Foundation for preservation on Miracle Mile states the Tucson Limited Access Highway wasn't transferred to state ownership until 1958 and was rebuilt into I-10 in 1961. I sifted through ADOT resolutions and found no records on a highway called "84A". Further, all available maps at my disposal do not show 84A. The THPF document states future I-10 upon transfer to state ownership became "part of SR 84", yet ADOT resolutions and maps suggest SR 84 remained on its original route until 1965/66, which of course took it down West Miracle Mile to US 80/US 89, then had a concurrency with both routes to the intersection of 6th Avenue abd Benson Highway (now I-10) where it terminated. Can someone help me find out if SR 84A was ever a real highway? Reputable sources seem,to debate this.

VS988



Zonie

I've pulled an article from the Arizona Republic (11/16/56), where the Arizona Highway Commission scheduled a hearing on where to locate a "superhighway" in the Tucson area.

It lists a few areas for improvements, SR 84A is listed twice. 


KeithE4Phx

It shows up on a 1961 map of Tucson:  https://www.arizonaroads.com/maps/1961-5.jpg

It is also described on the long-dormant ArizonaRoads.com as having existed from 1953 to 1963, which was probably the first year that there was enough of I-10 built to begin to sign it.
"Oh, so you hate your job? Well, why didn't you say so? There's a support group for that. It's called "EVERYBODY!" They meet at the bar." -- Drew Carey

Zonie

Also, the Daily Star (8/17/57) has an article where local businesses were complaining to state highway engineers about SR 84 and SR 84A signage on the Casa Grande Highway on Tucson's north end, deeming it misleading and confusing. 

It would indicate that even back then, 84A ran along the Tucson Freeway, which eventually became I-10.

SSR_317

Quote from: KeithE4Phx on September 06, 2018, 03:18:30 PM
It shows up on a 1961 map of Tucson:  https://www.arizonaroads.com/maps/1961-5.jpg

It is also described on the long-dormant ArizonaRoads.com as having existed from 1953 to 1963, which was probably the first year that there was enough of I-10 built to begin to sign it.
Thanks for linking to that map! My, oh my, how the Valley of the Sun has grown in the past 57 years (Tucson too).

707

#5
Thanks! I'm glad you guys did some digging. Good to know SR 84A did exist at one point. Now the question lies as to when it was formed. 1954 and 1955 articles from the Daily Star dont mention SR 84A. The 1956 HM Goshua Map of Arizona also has a Tucson inset which shows the road under its original name and suggests the highway was still city owned at the point of the map's production. By chance, are the links to said articles at Newspapers.com? If so, it'll be a little while before I have the funds to access the site abd use it as a reference on Wikipedia.

VS988

Zonie

Quote from: 707 on September 06, 2018, 03:50:54 PM
Thanks! I'm glad you guys did some digging. Good to know SR 84A did exist at one point. Now the question lies as to when it was formed. 1954 and 1955 articles from the Daily Star dont mention SR 84A. The 1956 HM Goshua Map of Arizona also has a Tucson inset which shows the road under its original name and suggests the highway was still city owned at the point of the map's production. By chance, are the links to said articles at Newspapers.com? If so, it'll be a little while before I have the funds to access the site abd use it as a reference on Wikipedia.

VS988


I'll clip and upload to a hosting site as soon as I get a chance today. 

707

#7
Quote from: Zonie on September 06, 2018, 03:58:00 PM
Quote from: 707 on September 06, 2018, 03:50:54 PM
Thanks! I'm glad you guys did some digging. Good to know SR 84A did exist at one point. Now the question lies as to when it was formed. 1954 and 1955 articles from the Daily Star dont mention SR 84A. The 1956 HM Goshua Map of Arizona also has a Tucson inset which shows the road under its original name and suggests the highway was still city owned at the point of the map's production. By chance, are the links to said articles at Newspapers.com? If so, it'll be a little while before I have the funds to access the site abd use it as a reference on Wikipedia.

VS988


I'll clip and upload to a hosting site as soon as I get a chance today.
Much appreciated! Ill make sure to renew my Newspapers.com subscription too starting tomorrow. I wonder if the Tucson Historic Preservation Foundation got the date of state transfer wrong? It was a very informative document either way.

Zonie


NE2

pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

707

#10
Quote from: NE2 on September 06, 2018, 09:35:29 PM
Is this it? http://azhighwaydata.com/resolutions/?resnum=1937-P-447

It's not it but thanks for looking. I really appreciate your help in trying to clarify the history of SR 84A. Actually, that's a little known extension of SR 84 proper. Not a lot of people know that from 1937 to 1965 (or 1966 depending on which source you read), SR 84 multiplexed with US 80 and US 89 down Oracle, Drachman, Stone and 6th Avenue before terminating at the intersection of 6th and Benson Highway (now I-10). SR 84A was the designation that the state apparently gave to the Tucson Controlled Access Highway which later became I-10 (which Tucson seems to just call just "Freeway" now days), between Miracle Mile and 6th Avenue. I never understood the purpose of this multiplex, especially considering it ended where US 80 and US 89 split apart. It didn't help things any that SR 93 and SR 789 were added to the Miracle Mile "totem pole" in later years.

Fun fact, it was on the Tucson US 80/US 89/SR 84 multiplex in 1940 that locals noticed two German tourists giving a "seig heil" to an SR 84 marker, since the Arizona state highway signs had swastikas back then, meant to portray the Navajo peace symbol. After talking with the two Germans and taking a close look at the SR 84 marker, the Highway Department realized the swastika was not only the wrong design for the Navajo symbol, but matched the Nazi swastika very closely. Out of embarrassment, the Highway Department ordered all the swastika signs to be replaced immediately following the SR 84 incident. Here's a link to a 1940 issue of Life magazine detailing the story: https://books.google.com/books?id=uj8EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA118&lpg=PA118&dq=Arizona+Tucson+Highway+swastika&source=bl&ots=21hbcbPyET&sig=WbdGTWWruV5GBOVUGxwjaVgKLHY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiRj_izvKLdAhVKjlQKHdLLCMEQ6AEwB3oECAMQAQ#v=onepage&q=Arizona%20Tucson%20Highway%20swastika&f=false

NE2

#11
"The uncontroverted facts are as follows: The Arizona Highway Commission adopted a resolution on November 5, 1948, establishing a state highway known as the Tucson Control[sic] Access Highway which we will refer to as the Freeway."
http://books.google.com/books?id=vBM7AQAAIAAJ&q=%22Tucson+Control+Access+Highway%22

Here's the resolution: http://azhighwaydata.com/resolutions/?resnum=1948-P-065
The description seems a bit off...Section 27 is to the southwest.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

707

Quote from: NE2 on September 07, 2018, 02:08:09 PM
"The uncontroverted facts are as follows: The Arizona Highway Commission adopted a resolution on November 5, 1948, establishing a state highway known as the Tucson Control[sic] Access Highway which we will refer to as the Freeway."
http://books.google.com/books?id=vBM7AQAAIAAJ&q=%22Tucson+Control+Access+Highway%22

Here's the resolution: http://azhighwaydata.com/resolutions/?resnum=1948-P-065
The description seems a bit off...Section 27 is to the southwest.

Thanks for digging up the info! I'll make sure to modify all information on the Tucson Freeway I typed up on Wikipedia to reflect it.

sparker

Looking at the Tucson insert map, two things concerning AZ 86 are a bit vexing:

(1)  Was the short section of Ajo Way between US 89 and US 80 ever a part of the state highway system and possibly signed as AZ 86?, and --
(2)  The map shows AZ 86 multiplexed with US 80 east of Tucson.  Was there ever erected signage to that effect, or was it simply a silent multiplex?

Perhaps AZ posters with some documentation can clear this up!

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: sparker on September 07, 2018, 10:22:35 PM
Looking at the Tucson insert map, two things concerning AZ 86 are a bit vexing:

(1)  Was the short section of Ajo Way between US 89 and US 80 ever a part of the state highway system and possibly signed as AZ 86?, and --
(2)  The map shows AZ 86 multiplexed with US 80 east of Tucson.  Was there ever erected signage to that effect, or was it simply a silent multiplex?

Perhaps AZ posters with some documentation can clear this up!

It probably was a co-sign, Arizona traditionally hasn't been stingy with signing long US Route/State Highway multiplexes like US 60/AZ 77. 

Zonie

Quote from: sparker on September 07, 2018, 10:22:35 PM
Looking at the Tucson insert map, two things concerning AZ 86 are a bit vexing:

(1)  Was the short section of Ajo Way between US 89 and US 80 ever a part of the state highway system and possibly signed as AZ 86?, and --
(2)  The map shows AZ 86 multiplexed with US 80 east of Tucson.  Was there ever erected signage to that effect, or was it simply a silent multiplex?

Perhaps AZ posters with some documentation can clear this up!

There's a reference to AZ 86/Ajo Way on this sign:

https://arizonaroads.com/wrong/wrong1.html

707

#16
Quote from: sparker on September 07, 2018, 10:22:35 PM
Looking at the Tucson insert map, two things concerning AZ 86 are a bit vexing:

(1)  Was the short section of Ajo Way between US 89 and US 80 ever a part of the state highway system and possibly signed as AZ 86?, and --
(2)  The map shows AZ 86 multiplexed with US 80 east of Tucson.  Was there ever erected signage to that effect, or was it simply a silent multiplex?

Perhaps AZ posters with some documentation can clear this up!
From what I gather, AZ 86 was unsigned between US 89 in Tucson and US 80 in Benson at first. Maps dating back to 1958 only show US 80 between the two towns. By 1961 however, maps show SR 86 on the route. The signage in the color shields photo and putting myself in the shoes of a highway department that doesn't want to have to go through the super red taped process of adding Ajo Way between Benson and 6th to the highway system leads me to believe one thing: SR 86 travelled north along US 89/SR 93 to the junction with US 80/SR 84 at Benson/6th, then took US 80 east to Benson.

Given SR 86 once had two inconsecutive segments with the route's western segment ending at 6th Avenue (US 89) until about 1960, it wouldnt make much sense for ADOT to go through all the trouble and extra cost to add the rest of Ajo to Benson if the distance between Ajo and Benson on 6th is just a few blocks. I used to volunteer at the VA Hospital there and walked the distance between the old Benson Highway junction and Ajo. Its not that far.

VS988

sparker

^^^^^^^
Fair enough; Caltrans and its predecessor agency often had circuitous state highway routings when more efficient egress was available just so they didn't have to go through the process of exchanging mounds of technical information with counties and/or cities regarding alternate alignments.  They probably reasoned that if drivers were inclined to follow the signed route regardless of twists & turns they'd continue to do so, and other drivers -- presumably with maps in those days -- would simply read the map and use the more direct routings.   

707

Quote from: sparker on September 08, 2018, 02:32:53 PM
^^^^^^^
Fair enough; Caltrans and its predecessor agency often had circuitous state highway routings when more efficient egress was available just so they didn't have to go through the process of exchanging mounds of technical information with counties and/or cities regarding alternate alignments.  They probably reasoned that if drivers were inclined to follow the signed route regardless of twists & turns they'd continue to do so, and other drivers -- presumably with maps in those days -- would simply read the map and use the more direct routings.   
I'm glad I could help. Of course it would be easier if the old AHD logs or county maps were readily available. Ill try and sift through the ADOT resolutions and see if I cant find a definitive answer. The ADOT resolutions are how I was able to confirm the odd SR 84 extension to Benson Highway.

VS988


Max Rockatansky

Quote from: sparker on September 07, 2018, 10:22:35 PM
Looking at the Tucson insert map, two things concerning AZ 86 are a bit vexing:

(1)  Was the short section of Ajo Way between US 89 and US 80 ever a part of the state highway system and possibly signed as AZ 86?, and --
(2)  The map shows AZ 86 multiplexed with US 80 east of Tucson.  Was there ever erected signage to that effect, or was it simply a silent multiplex?

Perhaps AZ posters with some documentation can clear this up!

A 1963 Topographical Map of Tucson shows AZ 86 signed on Ajo Way between US 89/AZ 93/AZ 789 and US 80.

Here is a linked over image Zonie was referring to from Arizonaroads.com earlier:


707

#20
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 08, 2018, 11:23:22 PM
Quote from: sparker on September 07, 2018, 10:22:35 PM
Looking at the Tucson insert map, two things concerning AZ 86 are a bit vexing:

(1)  Was the short section of Ajo Way between US 89 and US 80 ever a part of the state highway system and possibly signed as AZ 86?, and --
(2)  The map shows AZ 86 multiplexed with US 80 east of Tucson.  Was there ever erected signage to that effect, or was it simply a silent multiplex?

Perhaps AZ posters with some documentation can clear this up!

A 1963 Topographical Map of Tucson shows AZ 86 signed on Ajo Way between US 89/AZ 93/AZ 789 and US 80.

Here is a linked over image Zonie was referring to from Arizonaroads.com earlier:



Interesting. Though Ive heard from Dale Sanderson, USGS maps are sometimes notorious for incorrectly referencing highways. At this point, the only way to know would be ADOT resolutions, highway logs or official county maps.

I found a probable resolution to help answer the question:
http://azhighwaydata.com/resolutions/?resnum=1958-P-021

It says "ESTAB & WIDEN EXISTING R/W FROM 6TH AVE EAST 1 MILE TO SANTA CRUZ RIVER". Which makes no sense considering the river is WEST of 6th Avenue. Perhaps they meant Benson Highway? If so, this could be the resolution that confirms Max's discovery, or just a resolution saying they widened the road west of 6th Avenue to the River. Perhaps they mean the resolution takes effect east one mile of 6th Avenue and continues until hitting the river? I measured the distance from 6th Avenue to Benson Highway. It's 0.92 miles. Rounded, that's one mile which could mean the "ESTABLISH" tag on "ESTABLISH AND WIDEN" refers to Ajo Way. If that's true, then for about one mile east of 6th there's a slight chance Ajo was made part of the state highway system in 1958 and SR 86 extended east to meet US 80.

But looking closer a the 1961 date inset map of Tucson from the official state highway map, seems to show differently. If you look closely, the thickness of the line on Ajo Way between Benson Highway and 6th Avenue is the same thickness given to the local streets and roads, whereas the thickness given to the section we know was SR 86 is more pronounced, like it would be on a secondary state highway portrayed on these maps.


In case someone else can better interpret resolutions, here's all the resolutions for SR 86 between the mid fifties to the mid sixties, about the time frame it would have been extended if at all:
http://azhighwaydata.com/resolutions/?syear=&submit1=Submit&eyear=&crc=&rtnum=86&page=3

Max Rockatansky

While I'm in agreement that topographical maps aren't exact the best source I'd say that the evidence is pretty strong that AZ 86 was on Ajo Way between US 80 and US 89 given there is photographic proof on top of it.  A lot of times I've found that cities in particular can't be completely solved in terms of routing without the aid of photographs.  Maps tend to obscure city routes even from the best sources and really all you have is to hope that photos of the field signage exist.

To that end over on Pacific Southwest we had a recent confirmation of US 399 to US 466 in Bakersfield.  The US 6 terminus on US 101A remains an open discussion and on occasion the routing of US 101 in San Francisco before the Golden Gate Bridge.  What I've found with Arizona more often than not is that if an alignment seemed plausible and practical than it likely was part of a US Route or State Highway. 

Regarding my statement earlier being signed on US 80 east to Benson I definitely stand by that statement.  ADOT isn't stingy even now multiplexing routes in the field but was even less so back in the heyday of the US Route system.  That topographical map showed a multiplex of AZ 93 and AZ 789 on US 89 south of Tucson.  I'm not certain how well AZ 789 even really got signed but I do know that ADOT was pushing AZ 93 pretty hard because they wanted US 93 all the way to the border.  Imagine being the Phoenix Area at the time crossing the Salt River on Mill Avenue and being greeted by reassurance shields for; US 60, US 70, US 80, US 89, and AZ 93.  To that end US 80 and AZ 86 being multiplexed seems down right reasonable by comparison.

707

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 09, 2018, 10:25:01 AM
While I'm in agreement that topographical maps aren't exact the best source I'd say that the evidence is pretty strong that AZ 86 was on Ajo Way between US 80 and US 89 given there is photographic proof on top of it.  A lot of times I've found that cities in particular can't be completely solved in terms of routing without the aid of photographs.  Maps tend to obscure city routes even from the best sources and really all you have is to hope that photos of the field signage exist.

To that end over on Pacific Southwest we had a recent confirmation of US 399 to US 466 in Bakersfield.  The US 6 terminus on US 101A remains an open discussion and on occasion the routing of US 101 in San Francisco before the Golden Gate Bridge.  What I've found with Arizona more often than not is that if an alignment seemed plausible and practical than it likely was part of a US Route or State Highway. 

Regarding my statement earlier being signed on US 80 east to Benson I definitely stand by that statement.  ADOT isn't stingy even now multiplexing routes in the field but was even less so back in the heyday of the US Route system.  That topographical map showed a multiplex of AZ 93 and AZ 789 on US 89 south of Tucson.  I'm not certain how well AZ 789 even really got signed but I do know that ADOT was pushing AZ 93 pretty hard because they wanted US 93 all the way to the border.  Imagine being the Phoenix Area at the time crossing the Salt River on Mill Avenue and being greeted by reassurance shields for; US 60, US 70, US 80, US 89, and AZ 93.  To that end US 80 and AZ 86 being multiplexed seems down right reasonable by comparison.
I'm not disagreeing at all that SR 86 was at some point cosigned with US 80. Given it shows up on at least one official state highway map, I believe it really happened. All I'm saying is I don't believe the concurrency was signed until sometime between 1958 and 1960. The concurrency doesn't show up on any maps I've seen until the official State Map published in 1961 and the ADOT resolution suggesting Ajo east of 6th was added to SR 86 is dated 1958. Also, I recently checked my official 1953-54 AHD State Map and SR 86 was shown being in two in-consecutive sections as Benson Highway in the Tucson Inset and US 80 eastward to Benson didn't have an SR 86 marker joining them.

As for SR 86 being on Ajo Way between 6th and Benson, the resolution I pulled up along with the 1963 topo points very strongly in that favor. Maybe the 1961 map portraying Ajo between 6th and Benson as local is just an error on the map maker's behalf? The topo map does correctly show the US 80/US 89/SR 84 multiplex, which is accurate.

VS988


NE2

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 09, 2018, 10:25:01 AM
While I'm in agreement that topographical maps aren't exact the best source I'd say that the evidence is pretty strong that AZ 86 was on Ajo Way between US 80 and US 89 given there is photographic proof on top of it.
There is no photographic proof; the sign is at Benson and 6th pointing south on 6th.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

Max Rockatansky

#24
Quote from: NE2 on September 09, 2018, 12:44:26 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 09, 2018, 10:25:01 AM
While I'm in agreement that topographical maps aren't exact the best source I'd say that the evidence is pretty strong that AZ 86 was on Ajo Way between US 80 and US 89 given there is photographic proof on top of it.
There is no photographic proof; the sign is at Benson and 6th pointing south on 6th.

Let me rephrase then, it's implied that AZ 86 is southward given the sign just says "Ajo Way."   The inference is that 86 is present on Ajo Way and not a particular direction of travel such as an western segment. Given that there is no AZ 86 shield at the junction of 6th and Benson it also seems to suggest that it is present to the south.

Granted that doesn't resolve if there was a gap in 86 at one point or if the route was co-signed to Benson with US 80.  The photo also doesn't have a date and the only description Arizonaroads gave was about colorized shields starting in the 1950s. 

Speaking of signage mysteries (saw the thread retitle) what about AZ 789?   I honestly don't think I've ever a single photo of AZ 789 Signed in the field.  Does anyone have any old photographs of 789 on sign assembles?...I'd love to see them if they are out there.   



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.